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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Clinton and Obama Campaign in Florida; Hispanic Caucus Attacks LOU DOBBS TONIGHT; Cisco Systems Puts Profits Ahead of People
Aired May 21, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, Thank you.
Tonight Senators Obama and Clinton campaigning in Florida, but Obama and Clinton have very different agendas there. We'll have complete coverage.
And tonight socio ethnocentric special interest groups at it again distorting the truth and the record and again attacking me, the pro-amnesty lobby teaming up with a left wing advocacy group that purports to be a non partisan journalism watchdog. We'll have that report.
And tonight major defeat for the illegal alien lobby and its rather dishonest tactics in the U.S. Senate. Senator Jeff Sessions joins us. He led the successful fight against amnesty provisions being attached to the Iraq war funding bill. He's among my guests and so is Senator Jim Webb, all of that, all the day's news and much more straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Wednesday, May 21. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Senators Clinton and Obama tonight are in Florida, a critically important state in the race for the Democratic nomination and of course for the general election. Senator Clinton telling her supporters that votes from the disputed primary in Florida must be counted in the contest for the nomination.
For his part, Senator Obama focused on the general election. The senator saying the Democratic Party will be unified in the fight against Senator McCain.
We have extensive coverage for you on the campaign trail beginning with Candy Crowley in Coral Gables, Florida -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou. As you know, Florida along with Michigan has been such a state non grata (ph) in the Democratic Party because they went outside party rules and had their primaries earlier than they were supposed to be, but today both of these Democratic candidates decided it was time for a little love for Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Two candidates, two missions, one state.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, how are you all?
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How's it going, Tampa?
CROWLEY: Within reach of the nomination, Barack Obama campaigned in general election mode along Florida's I-4 corridor where most statewide elections are won or lost.
OBAMA: We can't afford four more years of George Bush foreign policy. That's why we can't afford John McCain.
CROWLEY: While Obama bolts up his staff for a general election run, Hillary Clinton, 20 million in debt, struggles to keep her primary bid viable. She used Florida as a backdrop pressing Democrats to count the results from Florida and Michigan, even though both broke party rules by moving up their primary dates. If a Democrat wants to argue let every vote count, the place to go is Palm Beach County, home of the butterfly ballot, which helped tangle up the 2000 election.
H. CLINTON: You learned the hard way what happens when your votes are not counted and the candidate with fewer votes is declared the winner.
CROWLEY: The primary season is about delegates, not popular vote, but Clinton believes superdelegate holdouts may come her way if she can accumulate a higher number of total votes cast during the season.
H. CLINTON: And we believe the popular vote is the truest expression of your will.
CROWLEY: In the delegate count Clinton wants Florida and Michigan seated according to the results. That's highly improbable. The party does not want to reward rule breakers, especially if the results could swing the nomination. Clinton remains undeterred and tireless. After a 25-minute speech dedicated solely to the delegate issue, she pressed the flesh and then returned to grab the mike, one last pitch with increasing urgency.
H. CLINTON: I had a bunch of people ask me how you can help. Well in addition to what you're doing in Florida, please go my Web site, HillaryClinton.com. Sign the petition and if you can afford it, make a contribution so we can keep going.
Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Certainly Clinton could not find a more receptive audience than these Floridians who often interrupt her with shouts of count our votes. We shall see, Lou, May 31, when the Democratic Credentials Committee gets together to decide just what to do -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much, Candy.
Candy Crowley in Coral Gables, Florida.
New evidence tonight that many Democrats do not support Senator Obama. Polls indicating many Democrats are unwilling to support him even if they believe he will be the eventual nominee. The McCain campaign says those divisions in the Democratic Party will benefit Republicans come November.
Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Will white voters support Barack Obama? Yes and no. Kentucky Democratic voters were nearly 90 percent white, Obama got blown out in Kentucky by 35 points. Oregon Democrats were also overwhelmingly white.
On the same day, Obama carried Oregon by 18 points. There's no such thing as a typical white voter. How Obama does depends on what voters we're talking about.
There's continuing resistance to Obama among two types of white voters, blue collar whites and Appalachian whites. Why? He doesn't have big differences with Clinton on issues of ideology, but there are big differences of style and temperament. She comes across as a fighter.
H. CLINTON: We're in this race because we believe America is worth fighting for.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
H. CLINTON: This continues to be a tough fight. And I've fought it the only way I know how, with determination, by never giving up and never giving in.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SCHNEIDER: Obama is running as a conciliator and a consensus builder.
OBAMA: We should not just talk to our friends. We should be willing to engage our enemies as well. That's what diplomacy is all about.
SCHNEIDER: Democrats have had this problem before with candidates who are not seen as tough guys. George McGovern, who was 1,000 percent behind his initial running mate, Michael Dukakis in the tank, John Kerry, who was for the $87 billion before he was against it. Republicans believe they can exploit the same weakness in Obama.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama is naive enough to believe that if he sits across the table from Raul Castro or Ahmadinejad that they will be able to work things out. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The Clinton campaign has tried to make Obama look weak and it's working but only with certain types of voters, blue collar and Appalachian whites who prefer a more combative style of politics. Obama is betting that most voters are fed up with all the fighting and want something different for a change.
DOBBS: For a change, well it's a very convenient expression, for a change, Senator Obama underlining that. Is there any indication at all, anything that we've seen in these primaries, Bill Schneider that suggests any truth about what the outcome will be of the November election?
SCHNEIDER: Well all we can do is ask people how they'd vote right now. And what we're finding in state after state, most notably in Kentucky yesterday is that a lot of Clinton supporters say they won't vote for Obama. Now Obama voters say they'll support Senator Clinton if she is the nominee, but Clinton supporters are reluctant to support Obama. In Kentucky...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Only one-third, I'm sorry.
SCHNEIDER: Only one-third of Clinton supporters say they would vote for Obama.
DOBBS: And what percentage of Obama supporters? It's just over half, right?
SCHNEIDER: No, it's about 70 percent.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Is it that high?
SCHNEIDER: Very high.
DOBBS: All right.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. That's why she argues she would be a stronger nominee.
DOBBS: All right. Well it's an interesting argument and we'll see what's persuasive here as we wind down this primary season.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
Both Senators Clinton and Obama say they're ahead in the race for the Democratic nomination. They use different metrics. The candidates are using very different methods, in fact, to determine who is winning and who should win. Clinton is focusing on the electoral vote, Obama on pledged delegates. John King joins me now to just bring absolute clarity to all of this.
John, which candidate, Clinton or Obama, is likely to make the strongest case for the party superdelegates and ultimately the nomination?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, nominees are chosen by the delegates, so Obama has the more relevant math at the moment. His campaign would argue. But let's start with Senator Clinton's case because it follows on what you were just discussing with Bill.
Look at Senator Clinton's wins here. The light states are Senator Clinton's. These are places where she has won in the primaries, but what I want to do is break it out into a full county look. This is county by county.
Look at the Democratic race so far and what Senator Clinton wants the superdelegates to do is take a look at this swath right here, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia, Kentucky, a little bit of Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee. She tells the superdelegates this.
I am a stronger candidate in the fall. Now why does she make that case? Again, remember all the areas where Senator Clinton has done so well against Senator Obama and let's go back in time a little bit and look at George Bush's reelection victory in 2004.
He swept through this part of the country winning in small town, rural, white, working class America, winning by big margins over the Democrats in some ways. So this is why Hillary Clinton says I'm your stronger general election candidate.
She wants to make it based on this map, Lou. She wants to say I might be able to pick up Ohio. I might be able to get West Virginia. Barack Obama will have huge problems in this region right here. Now that is Hillary Clinton's case to the superdelegates and she is making it quite forcibly.
Her problem at this moment is that you choose nominees by the delegates and if you look at the delegate math so far, it's overwhelmingly in favor of Senator Obama. He is not quite at the finish line, but he has a majority of the pledged or the elected delegates.
He now leads Senator Clinton in the superdelegates. And if you come to this, look at the strategy, Lou, I think it puts it even into starker contrast. This is the finish line under the existing rules, unless they change them to bring Michigan and Florida into the equation.
See how close Senator Obama is. You see how far Senator Clinton is. Senator Obama needs 25, 26 percent of the remaining delegates, so if he gets a little bit of these and a little bit of these he is your nominee. He can win fewer than three in 10 of the remaining delegates and he clinches in the math that matters most under the rules as they stand now. Lou. DOBBS: John, terrific analysis and illuminating. Let me ask you and if I may ask bring Bill Schneider back into this. You raised the question, John King, as to whether or not the number of delegates at 2,026 will remain the same, because that leaves out the rather open question of Michigan and Florida.
John, what is your thought? And then I'm going to turn to you, Bill Schneider, for your analysis. What is your thought about what will happen with Florida and Michigan and what is now almost two and a half million disenfranchised Democratic voters?
KING: I think there's absolutely no question, Lou, and all of the campaigns agree they want to do something to try to resolve this problem. The issue is the candidates can't agree on what to do.
And I just want to just show you on the wall, why we talk about this, where the finish line would go. It would move out here. If you changed it to 2,210, you see Obama would still be closer to the finish line than Senator Clinton, but it would make the game more interesting if you will, 300 more delegates added into the mix, a little more than that with Florida and Michigan.
The leading proposals right now say give both of those states each of them some of their delegates, impose some penalty, but how do you apportion them? How much would Senator Clinton get? How much would Senator Obama get? That is the thrust of this very critical meeting at the end of the month that we simply don't know that answer yet.
DOBBS: We do know it's going to be a battle royal. Your thoughts, Bill.
SCHNEIDER: My thoughts are very simple. They will seat delegates from Florida and Michigan to make sure they're there. I don't know what the (INAUDIBLE) will be, but there is only one requirement. The Florida and Michigan delegate votes cannot change the outcome. Meaning they cannot nominate Hillary Clinton because then the Obama people would cry foul, the process would be unfair. There would be protests. It would disrupt the whole party.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, both of you, if I may. Without a vote by those millions of voters in Michigan and in Florida, Democratic voters, this will be, will it not, John King, certainly a brokered nomination. Will it also be tainted?
KING: Well certainly Senator Obama can get there under the existing rules with the superdelegates. Would some call it tainted? Certainly that might be the case. Will Democrats in Michigan and Florida have hard feelings? I think that without a doubt will be the case, which is one of the reasons you saw him down in Florida today.
He is trying to heal the wounds and say look I'm sorry for what happened. If I share any of the responsibility I will take it, but we need to come together and win the White House in November. He understands, his campaign understands there are some bruised feelings, some bruised egos and some Democrats who say hey what about us. They have a lot of work to do. Can they solve it all to the satisfaction of everyone by the convention? That's an open question. But you're going see Barack Obama, if he is the nominee, spend a lot of time here and here I guarantee it, Lou.
DOBBS: All right.
SCHNEIDER: The answer to your question is yes. If the insiders at that meeting on May 31 come up with some crazy formula, which I think they will, to seat the Michigan and Florida delegates, it will look like an inside job, it will look tainted. But if it doesn't change the outcome, people won't get angry.
DOBBS: We have it there. Appreciate it Bill.
Bill Schneider and John King, thank you both -- much more on the presidential campaign ahead.
Also the pro-amnesty lobby, well they're at it again, they're attacking me without any facts of course.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus and a liberal media watchdog group are taking issue with this broadcast and its reporting on illegal immigration. We'll have that report coming up -- Lou.
DOBBS: We'll do a little more reporting on it. Lisa, thank you very much. We look forward to your report.
And a leading pro-amnesty lawmaker, Senator Dianne Feinstein, criticizing me. I'll set the record straight. And we'll have at least a clarification for the entire illegal alien amnesty and open borders lobby.
And one of the clearest indications yet that some of our largest companies apparently believe profits are more important than freedom when it comes to communist China. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus has teamed up with a left wing advocacy group to attack me and this broadcast on our coverage of illegal immigration. They don't want you to know it's a left wing advocacy group. They like to pretend that they are a watchdog group of journalism. The congressman, Joe Baca, who is the chair of the Hispanic Caucus today said I am, "guilty of reckless journalism."
Lisa Sylvester has our report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus took aim at this broadcast, "The Glenn Beck Show" on Headline News and FOX News' "O'Reilly Factor" over how they cover illegal immigration.
REP. JOE BACA (D), CALIFORNIA: It only creates fear, hatred and negative stereotyping of immigrants. Dobbs is most guilty of the reckless irresponsible journalism.
SYLVESTER: The Caucus cites a new report from a group called Media Matters, which describes itself as a progressive research center that quote, "documents conservative misinformation". Among the charges, the report says these shows are fueling hatred and point to coverage of crimes involving illegal aliens and the cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers.
PAUL WALDMAN, MEDIA MATTERS: Overall, immigrants pay more in taxes than they get in social services. But you won't hear that from these cable hosts.
SYLVESTER: But a 2004 study by the Center for Immigration Studies, which favors immigration restrictions, says just the opposite. That illegal households cost the federal government $10 million more than they paid in taxes in 2002. On the question of stereotyping, a Hispanic group that opposes illegal immigration disagrees saying elected officials are trying to shut down the debate over fixing the systems.
MARIANN DAVIES, YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME: Using smear tactics and now an even high-level campaign of trying to sensor the media and I find it even more offensive that members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, elected officials, are actually trying to shut down you know people and deny them their First Amendment rights when they've taken an oath to uphold those very laws.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Now the report by Media Matters has entitled fear and loathing in prime time, immigration myths and cable news. Now this group and members of the Hispanic Congressional Caucus often do not draw the distinction between legal and illegal immigration. All three broadcasts have been critical of illegal immigration; illegal because it is a violation of U.S. law -- Lou.
DOBBS: Yes, it's remarkable and by the way, to get associated with Media Matters, Hispanic -- the Congressional Hispanic Caucus -- I mean that is -- that's sort of in my opinion duplicitous to begin with. As if there is sort of impartial judge of what is and is not correct reporting.
It's really mindless, and as you say, it's a progressive liberal left-wing organization. And by the way, we should point out Paul Waldman, the author of that study, has agreed to be our guest here tomorrow night, so we're looking forward to that. Any suggestion on the part of those that this press conference or whatever that perhaps they're not -- their position is perhaps not entirely reasonable?
That there is here room here for some interpretation of facts rather than just say sort of histrionic attempts to muzzle the press that's going on. It's almost a concerted effort, isn't it? SYLVESTER: Well this group, Media Matters, this was a group that was formed in 2004 by a man named David Brock. I mean this is clearly a liberal progressive group and they clearly have an agenda. I mean if you go on their Web site, they make it very clear their next target, in fact, is John McCain. So they basically go down the list and they are looking for these types of issues and essentially to spotlight them and to highlight them the way that they have in this case.
DOBBS: Well it must confuse and confound the poor souls at Media Matters, because if they're a liberal left-wing organization, they're actually aligned with the U.S. Chamber of Congress, which also wants amnesty, which also wants open borders, and basically buys in with the Hispanic Caucus and ethnocentric interest groups that, you know if that if you are against illegal immigration, if you want borders secure, you are (INAUDIBLE) a racist, for crying out loud. The mindset and the level of thinking and openness here on the part of these advocates is just pitiful.
SYLVESTER: Yes that's a very valid point, if fact we have the group, You Don't Speak For Me, I mean this is a Hispanic group and they are clearly against illegal immigration because they said they played by the rules, their family played by the rules, and now there are groups of people who want to break those rules and then reward folks for breaking the rules.
DOBBS: Well I will repeat to my friends at the Hispanic Caucasus and to Media Matters, by the way for that matter. Very simple syllogism, you defeat this, I'll sign on with whatever your program is. You cannot, cannot reform immigration law and policies in this country if we cannot control immigration. And we can't control immigration if we can't control our own borders and ports. You find the fault with that syllogism; I'll sign up with your program immediately.
Lisa, thanks very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Advocates of illegal immigration and open borders trying to silence now Chris Simcox . He's the president of the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps. Several hundred protesters gathered Monday night at DePaul University in Chicago during his speech there. Look at this. I mean goodness, those protesters outside the lecture hall called Simcox a racist because of his leadership of the Minutemen at one time and for advocating border security.
Proponents of border security also were gathered at DePaul. They were demonstrating their support for Simcox and his first -- his First Amendment right to speak. I don't know what they're teaching kids in college these days, but the idea of shutting down someone else's right of free speech is not exactly in the tradition of say protests and breaking away from orthodoxy in our nation's universities.
Maybe, maybe just a couple of professors there, a few people with a little influence in academia could bring that idea forward for those young people to consider. It is sort of interesting; you've got people trying to suppress First Amendment rights of a person who has been associated with the group, who's trying to insist upon the enforcement of U.S. law. It gets complicated doesn't it?
Well up next here a major defeat for amnesty advocates, we'll tell you why Senator Dianne Feinstein isn't happy with me or our coverage of her illegal alien amnesty bill. And Senator Jeff Sessions, a leading opponent of that legislation joins us.
And powerful Democratic Senator Jim Webb, he's joining me to talk about perhaps the vice presidency, his battle against special interests and his brand new book, entitled, "A Time To Fight."
I like the title.
And an American technology company putting profit ahead of people, disturbing new information about Cisco Systems in communist China. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New charges tonight that Cisco one of this countries largest technology firms is putting profits ahead of basic consideration of human rights. U.S. lawmakers now want to know whether Cisco is cooperating with communist China's efforts to crack down on its citizens.
Cisco CEO John Chambers once famously remarked, "What we're trying to do is outline an entire strategy of becoming a Chinese company." It may be that he's on his way.
Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The question before the Senate subcommittee on human rights is simple and it shows capitalism grappling with its soul.
SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: Do we believe in freedom enough that we're willing to give up some economic benefit on our part so that people somewhere else can have freedom.
TUCKER: Global Internet Freedom Consortium, a human rights group opposed to Internet censorship, unveiled a leaked Cisco PowerPoint presentation from 2002. It was put together by a senior Cisco executive in China. It shows a marketing strategy designed to exploit communist China's Golden Shield Project, designed to manage Internet access and spy on Internet users.
Other documents show Cisco products integrated into surveillance systems. Cisco's chief counsel defended his company's decision to do business with China and denied his company aids in the surveillance of Internet users.
MARK CHANDLER, CISCO: Cisco does not customize or develop specialized or unique filtering capabilities in order to enable different regimes to block access to information.
TUCKER: Global Internet Freedom Consortium says it believes Cisco is, "lying."
SHIYU ZHOU, GLOBAL INTERNET FREEDOM CONSORTIUM: If you want to sell something to our clients, you need to meet the objectives of your clients. So in other words, you offer a solution to your clients instead of just equipment.
TUCKER: Cisco's denials don't go nearly far enough for other human rights groups.
SOPHIE RICHARDSON, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I think the human rights world would feel a lot better about those comments if we knew that Cisco was putting an equal amount of energy into for example innovating technology that would get around the firewalls and that would protect users' identities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: There is no indication that anything like that is going to be happening anytime soon. The Chinese human rights groups say American companies are too focused on short-term profit gains, apparently not recognizing that they have power to stand on principles and force some leverage with the China government.
And Lou, they say they're ignoring the much larger market potential avoiding more free China would offer them in terms of greater business opportunity.
DOBBS: Yes, it would be nice to be able to say that John Chambers, the CEO of Cisco Systems, had stood his ground and had asserted principle here and worked intelligently as a firm like Cisco is capable of doing or Microsoft or Google or any number of these companies and work with them to be adding value and bringing some appreciation or recognition to that principle instead of basically accommodating the market, if you will, thinking global but acting local and that's unfortunate in this case.
What is Cisco Systems telling us in response to this hearing and these damning charges?
TUCKER: Well there's an industry wide coalition, Lou, responses from the industry, Lou, which is working on a code of conduct. And according to Senator Dick Durbin, who chairs the Senate Committee on Human Rights, they're expecting an announcement sometime within the next couple of days. Whether that will happen or not we don't know, but apparently they're setting up some sort of independent monitoring commission.
DOBBS: To change, to modify, to improve their behavior?
TUCKER: To allegedly hopefully improve their behavior...
DOBBS: And as I ask, what was Cisco Systems' response to our inquiries in this report?
TUCKER: I called Cisco Systems today, Lou. They elected not to return my phone calls. I guess deferring to go with the counsel's defense yesterday.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you, Bill Tucker. Appreciate it.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Ursula in Florida says: "I keep hearing on television that the Clinton people would like to have Florida and Michigan votes counted. I do believe the political pundits have that wrong. It's we the voters who would like to have our votes counted."
And Debbie in New York: "Please explain to the Democratic Party that the millions of voters who supported Clinton are not cattle to be herded to their candidate of choice. Rather, they are independently minded individuals who will assess which candidate they believe right for the job and then cast their ballot in the fall. Independent voters. What an amazing concept that is."
And believe me, it's absolutely in my humble and singular opinion here, it's very likely, a direct reflection of the inner workings of the mind of one Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee. It would be a shock for him to hear that voters actually, actually have independent will. We'll have more of your thoughts later in the broadcast.
And a reminder to join me on the radio Monday through Friday afternoons for the Lou Dobbs Show. My guests tomorrow include Congressman Corinne Brown of Florida on her fight to make Florida's primary votes count. And Missouri Governor Matt Blunt joins us here to talk about the state's new anti-illegal immigration legislation. And Ira Mehlman joins me, with efforts to sensor me and others, efforts by among others the Hispanic Congressional Caucus. Go to loudobbs.com to get local listings for the Lou Dobbs Show.
Up next, one of the nation's most powerful lawmakers, an influential Democrat. Senator Jim Webb joins me; we'll talk about his new book, "A Time to Fight."
And Senator Dianne Feinstein is fighting with me. She sent me a letter. She doesn't like my position on her pro amnesty efforts and I'll have a few thoughts on the record and perhaps we can meet half way Senator Feinstein and me.
And I'll be joined by a leading opponent of amnesty for illegal aliens, Senator Jeff Sessions, an opponent to illegal alien funding.
We'll be right back with all that and a great deal more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, after considerable objection, the Senate leadership late last night removed a farm worker AG bill illegal amnesty amendment that had been attached to the Iraq war funding bill. But not before Senator Dianne Feinstein added her name to those, a growing list I might say, who want to stop me from speaking out on the issue of illegal immigration and border security all across the country. Senator Feinstein in a letter to me blasted me for reporting on her AG jobs amendment to the war funding bill, an amendment that would have provided amnesty for as many as three million illegal alien farm workers and their families.
In her letter, the senator said, "The legislation was not approved by the Appropriations Committee 'in the dark of night' as you said. The legislation was offered during an open meeting of the Senate Appropriations Committee in the early afternoon, with hundreds of people in attendance."
Well, Senator, the dark of night is a metaphor, regardless of the time of day, most of the senators didn't know what you were doing and the discussion of the amendment was not on any public calendar that I'm aware of. An issue of this importance to the nation deserves full public hearings, full debate on the floor of the Senate, not an attachment that I described as dishonorable to Iraq war funding bill.
Your letter states that legislation is not amnesty. It could pride legal status to millions of illegal aliens. If that's not amnesty, what is it? Fortunately Senator, your colleagues on the other side of the aisle and the voices of outraged Americans helped your leadership understand that it was time to reconsider and to remove that ill conceived amendment from the Iraq war funding legislation.
Senator Feinstein declined our offer to join me here. We understand that. We hope she'll reconsider. It's a subject that we believe really deserves all the illumination we can bring to it. We'll continue to do our very best to bring light to this subject.
Senator Jeff Sessions was on this program Monday night expressing his outrage at the AG jobs amendment and Senator Sessions, a leader in the fight to defeat the amendment, joining us here tonight.
First I want to say to you Senator, we all are grateful for your efforts and we commend you for it. Thank you for doing that and I just can't imagine how the Democratic leader ship, the leadership that participated in this would permit to it be attached to an appropriations bill, the Iraq war funding bill.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: Thank you for sounding the alarm. When we found out it had been added on, there was no notice on it. They had no hearings on the implications of the legislation. I'm confident that no member of the appropriations committee read that 110 page bill language. It has some very terrible things in it and it was not as stated fundamentally.
Senator Feinstein is a great person. I really admire her and like her. But we disagree fundamentally on this. This cannot be sneaked through without debate and the consideration of the American people. No form of legalization of millions of people, or any kind of legislation for that matter needs to be passed until we have the opportunity to put language in that tightens up the illegality in the current system. You said a little earlier the question is do we want a legal system or not.
How do you amend a system that's lawless already in people don't obey the law at all?
DOBBS: You know the reality is whether we're talking about the background checks that would have been required, the rather sort of list that went out there but there's no discussion that citizenship and immigration services, the agency that would be required to do all that, they are overwhelmed now. They can't function in support of and processing of legal immigrants into this country. It's a shame.
For Senator Feinstein and Senator Craig to sponsor such legislation with as far as I know, maybe you can correct me. I'm unaware by any research done by the Congressional Budget Office or Congressional Research Services on the issue of illegal aliens working in agriculture, where they're need most, at what price they would be paid. I know of none of that done.
SESSIONS: I couldn't agree more. Fundamentally this is a huge issue that impacts America in a whole lot of ways. We need a serious on objective analysis of what's needed. They've been listening to some very aggressive groups, special advocacy groups, and some very aggressive western growers who really, whose interests are not the same necessarily as the American interests.
DOBBS: They're sure not. At a time when this country is in an economic slowdown, people are going to talk honestly here. As somebody that has worked with illegal aliens working in fields, you know, many years ago, I can still remember the heat and the sweat and the hard work. If anybody wants to do something for those people immediately, I would hope they would attach to the legislation reasonable pay. Doubling the wages, the last research I saw would add about ten cents to a head of lettuce.
We need to pay the people in those fields more money. They deserve living wages. I don't care whether it's $20, or $25 an hour. They deserve it and that's what we should be paying. That might get the western growers' attention. Nothing should be passed without mandating a significant increase in pay for the people doing that absolutely essential work.
How do you feel?
SESSIONS: I think that's right.
We're not allowing the free market to work. If it were working, wages would go up. But it's undercut because huge flows of illegal labor keep flooding in and alleviate the need for the businesses to pay higher wages. I don't think that's healthy. I agree with you.
DOBBS: Senator, where do we go from here? There are still some H2B provisions in this amendment some of those pages that are still attached to the Iraq funding bill. What will be the disposition there?
SESSIONS: A lot of us want to do some improvements to the H2B. But I don't think anybody that voted for us and a lot of people that have heard about it fully understand that it goes up five times the current law rate of unskilled workers that come under that program. Take the highest rate, 120-some odd thousand; it's two and a half times that at a time our economy is slowing down. I don't think it's smart to go that far.
DOBBS: Great when a genius gets a hold of legislation, isn't it? Senator, thank you. I won't ask you to respond to that, Senator.
Senator Jeff Sessions, again congratulations on your successful efforts to forestall the horrible decision. Our thanks.
SESSIONS: Thank you.
DOBBS: Time now for our poll.
The question is: Does the attachment of amnesty legislation to the Iraq war funding bill compound your distrust of Congress?
We would like to hear from you. Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, the results upcoming.
Up next, Senator Jim Webb of Virginia, highly decorated Vietnam veteran will join us to talk about his new book, "A Time to Fight."
And Senator Obama says the nomination is basically his. Senator Clinton says, not so fast. We'll have more.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, one of our most distinguished and influential law makers, Senator Jim Webb, Democratic from the state of Virginia. He's here tonight to talk about his fight against special interests and lobbyists. His new book, "A Time to Fight."
I want to do this because he has such a distinguished career. It's worthy of points out and communicating what he's all about in terms of the accomplishments. He's a powerful advocate of the armed services. He served as Navy secretary in the Reagan administration. He served with the U.S. Marine Corps in Vietnam where his heroism earned him the Navy Cross, a silver star, two bronze stars, two purple hearts and in 1984 he actually won an Emmy Award for his coverage for PBS of the Marines' deployment in Beirut the previous year. Senator Webb has authored six best-selling novels.
His latest book is "A Time to Fight, Reclaiming a Fair and Just America" and he joins us now and I apologize if I embarrassed you with that introduction but I think a man who has accomplished all you have should get noted.
SEN. JIM WEBB (D), VIRGINIA: Nice to be with you again Lou.
DOBBS: It's super to have you here.
Let's go first to something that is important to millions of Americans and I think most Americans. You efforts to get the G.I. bill rationalized and give the young veterans an opportunity for an education. WEBB: I've watched your show quite a bit. I appreciate your efforts as well. Before I thought I would ever run for office, I believed that it was past the time for the Congress to start rewarding these people with the right opportunity for a full future the same way that we did when they came back from World War II. We may get that vote tomorrow, I'm hopeful.
DOBBS: As soon as tomorrow?
WEBB: Quite possible. Maybe in a straight, standup vote. We'll see how things go. Your discussion about things that should not be the supplemental bills, but I think this is appropriate for a bill like that.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more. I think most people would agree with you. I would like to look at your book, "A Time to Fight." Your book is interesting in so many respects. It's a rallying cry. What do you hope people will take from it at this particular moment in our history?
WEBB: One of the things that I can do up here that is a little bit different, perhaps in the vein of Daniel Patrick Moynihan, is having spent most of my career in writing and thinking, I think I can bring some perspective to issues, rather than just the legislative day-to-day stuff. There's one section in this book about economic fairness and social justice and those issues and I was recalling the first time I was on your show was when my book "Born Fighting" came out, before I ever thought I would run for office.
We had quite an extensive discussion on issues like executive compensation. You pointed out for years and I point out in the book, the average corporate CEO made 20 times more than the average worker. Now it's 400 times. The troubling thing is this is only happening in this country. You can say part of this is globalization and I think the internationalization of the American economy certainly sent a lot of it into motion but the Japanese corporate executives make 10 times what their workers make. Germany it's 11 times and those are very productive economies so if we don't put this information out in a way that people can grab a hold of it then we can't make changes and I figured I would just go on record saying these things as a United States senator.
DOBBS: I want to read an excerpt, if I may: "We are not engaging in the type of constructive debate that might allow us to reach a fair set of solutions. We will only be able to do so as a by product of reflective thoughtful leadership that is anchored in a sense of true stewardship of our people."
The solutions that you articulate, I want to commend your book to everybody, "A Time to Fight." It's a time for elevated discussions. We don't always get to it in times of presidential primaries and a general election.
Do you think we'll get there in the general election?
WEBB: It's going to be hard to predict in terms of general election. One thing I've been trying to do here is work as much as we can across the aisle with people that see issues that can be solved rather than throwing lob bombs at each other. I was part of the Reagan administration. It was an interesting time. Reagan would argue with tip O'Neill and have a beer at the end of the day and not take it personally. I would like to get back to it. I'm working hard with people on the other side to do it.
DOBBS: We commend your new book; recommend everyone read it, "A Time to Fight." Senator Jim Webb. We wish you the best.
WEBB: Thank you, thank you.
DOBBS: Time to vote on our poll.
The question is: Does the attachment of amnesty legislation to the Iraq war funding bill compound your distrust of Congress?
Yes or no? We would like to hear from you. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here shortly.
Up next, Bill Clinton accusing the Democrats of being as bad as the Republicans.
And the battle for Florida, I'll be talking with three of the best political analysts next. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Campbell Brown in the "CNN ELECTION CENTER."
At the top of the hour, where does all the money go that we're paying for the high oil prices? And we talk about the politics of oil prices.
And I'll ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta to talk about Senator Kennedy's brain cancer. They say trust takes time and wisdom is gained over the years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts and CNN contributors in the country. Republican strategist Ed Rollins who served as White House political director under President Reagan, chaired Governor Mike Huckabee's presidential campaign, Democratic strategist Robert Zimmerman, Democratic National Committeeman, Hillary Clintons supporter, superdelegate. And in Washington, D.C., Professor Carol Swain, Vanderbilt University's Law School; Carol also the editor of Debating Immigration.
Great to have you all with us.
Carol, it looks like Senator Obama is claiming the nomination without doing so. What's your reaction?
PROF. CAROL SWAIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: I think the media claimed it for him a long time ago. Nothing new, no surprises.
DOBBS: Do you agree, Robert Zimmerman?
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well I think the real issue here is no one knows what the number is going to be, the magic number to claim the nomination and that's the under reported story.
DOBBS: May 31 Rules Committee likely to be 2,210, if you include Michigan and Florida if they are seated, right?
ZIMMERMAN: Well if they're seated it could very well -- it depends on how many of the delegates from each state are seated but we know it's not going to be 2026 and the fact that we could talk about anyone laying claim to the nomination --
DOBBS: So why don't you guys just broker this deal, get to convention and get it over with? Either way it's going to have to be brokered, the superdelegates, the DNC Committee, the Democratic National Committee is going to make the decision.
ZIMMERMAN: Here's the big race, if in fact he can claim enough delegates before June 3 to claim the nomination, it's over. If Hillary Clinton can win the popular vote and neither side has enough delegates, then it comes down to what the superdelegates do it. And a lot of tough choices.
SWAIN: No, it comes down to the media and what they say and how they drive the masses.
DOBBS: Well.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, let me just say this. One more time, I think the Democratic Party is going the take the weaker candidate and nominate them and everybody feel good about it at their convention and go out with someone who has shown some real vulnerability among some of the key elements of that party. Every Democrat that has ever run has gotten 90 percent plus of the African- American vote. The white vote in some of these mainstream states that are borderline are very, very important. Women voters are very, very important. Unless they can make peace with Hillary Clinton's voters, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning this thing.
DOBBS: Well, that's about as straight forward and sharp an analysis as I've heard. Let me ask you this. They've still got Senator John McCain. They've still got George W. Bush. They've still got a Congress ...
ROLLINS: It will be one more time where the Democrats have a tremendous opportunity to win and they'll all sit in January and saying my goodness, how did we ever lose this thing and boy, shouldn't we have nominated Hillary? Wasn't she a great candidate?
ZIMMERMAN: Here's the good news for the Democrats. We're running against John McCain, who has not even consolidated his own base in his own party. I think in yesterday's Kentucky primary he only got 73 party of the vote and he was unopposed. So my point simply is, as he's failed to consolidate his base and runs on.
DOBBS: So basically what we're saying here tonight, if I've got this right, folks, is neither candidate has a chance in the world of winning the presidency of the United States.
ROLLINS: Good day for America.
ZIMMERMAN: Since you didn't pursue your independent candidacy, what can I tell you. It's going to be one of the two.
SWAIN: Women are going to remember this contest.
DOBBS: Well, you may well be right. Because the numbers of Clinton supporters who said they will not vote for Obama are remarkable.
I've got to ask you. This business with the AG jobs bill, Senator Feinstein and Senator Craig pushing it through, the Democratic leadership putting it on the Iraq funding bill, you're a Democrat. Democratic National Committeeman, what's you're reaction to that?
ZIMMERMAN: It's appalling. It was one of the core principles of the 2006 campaign, which was not to do the Trojan gift proposal, in other words not to have these hidden measures in other proposals. So the idea of putting an amnesty provision in an Iraq funding bill.
ROLLINS: It's almost as bad as not basically voting for the war, instead of a supplemental after five years, why not put it in the defense appropriation and we wouldn't have one of these special bills that come at the end of the session. They become Christmas trees.
DOBBS: Carol, you've written extensively on illegal immigration into this country.
Are we ever going to get -- are we going to mature to the point politically that we can talk about the evidence, the facts and the public policy direction of illegal immigration without getting into race and all of these ethnocentric agendas?
SWAIN: Not unless we can get the racial interest groups out of it and get people moving towards thinking about what is in the national interest. And the politics we're having now is clearly not in the national interest. And I'm glad you're out there being the voice of the people, and I'm glad that they cannot slip things by you.
You keep your viewers alerted to what's happening. We need that.
DOBBS: Well you know what -- and some of our viewers are alerting us all the time. The -- audience of this broadcast is terrific. I keep saying it's the smartest audience in television news, it really is. A wonderful group of folks.
But John McCain -- let's get back to John McCain. He's got to sort out a few things here.
Jim Webb was here, Senator Webb -- G.I. bill -- that legislation critically important. I support it 100 percent.
ROLLINS: I'm a Republican, I'm going to support John McCain. But I'm also going to criticize them when they're not doing what's right.
And so far, I can't figure out their strategy. I can't figure out why they've had since the beginning of March to put their campaign structure in place. Lobbyists were a big issue in the primaries where Romney argued -- and McCain -- both argued they had too many, and now it's now a big issue again because it's just stacked. He also is going to places that is not a constituency of the Republican Party.
DOBBS: Like where?
ROLLINS: Just all these -- the sort of tour that he's been on. He's not going anywhere -- he's not going back to the base.
DOBBS: We've got to jump here, I'm sorry. Out of time.
ROLLINS: OK.
DOBBS: Carol, thank you very much.
SWAIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Ed, thanks you.
Robert, thank you.
Our poll results -- 98 percent of you say the attachment of the amnesty legislation to the Iraq War Funding Bill compounds your distrust of Congress.
We thank you for being with us. Join us here tomorrow.
Good night from New York.
The "ELECTION CENTER" begins right now with Campbell Brown -- Campbell.
