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American Morning

Charges of Sexism in Presidential Campaign; Clinton Insists She is More Electable; McCain Versus Obama: War Over Diplomacy

Aired May 21, 2008 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DEE DEE MYERS, FMR. CLINTON ADMIN. PRESS SECRETARY: So I think as we look back over NEVILLE: is campaign, regardless of the outcome, I think, you know, we'll have to admit that sexism has played a role. It's not the only factor...
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, and you know --

MYERS: ... but it's been a factor.

PHILLIPS: And the fact we've seen women leaders all across the world.

MYERS: Right.

PHILLIPS: Even in Middle Eastern countries, which is pretty fascinating.

MYERS: Right.

PHILLIPS: Now, OK, if not Hillary, and just quickly because we have to go.

MYERS: Right.

PHILLIPS: Who would it be? Who would be the next woman in the running?

MYERS: Well, I think if you look around there are a lot of interesting women. There's, you know, Senator Claire McCaskill and Senator Amy Klobuchar, both interestingly have endorsed Senator Obama. There are some interesting governors. Governor Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas and Janet Napolitano of Arizona. There are some interesting women coming up in the ranks of the House.

But I think what's interesting is we ask that question about women, but if you look and ask the same question about men, it's not really much easier to say well, who's the next nominee for the Republican Party or the Democratic Party who is not a woman? And so, of course, all the women I mentioned are Democrats because I am. But I think there are some very interesting Republican women out there.

PHILLIPS: Dee Dee Myers might be in there, too.

MYERS: Hopefully not.

PHILLIPS: Got to point the new book, "Why Women Should Rule the World." Oh, you never know.

MYERS: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Great to see you.

MYERS: Thank you, Kyra, good to see you.

PHILLIPS: All right -- John.

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: So, it was a split decision. As we said, Hillary Clinton took Kentucky by a whopping 35 points. Barack Obama took Oregon by 16.

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux is live in Des Moines, Iowa, for us this morning. That's where Barack Obama made a speech last night. So is he off on the general election trail, or does he figure he still got a couple of primary contests left to go, Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's got a couple left, but he certainly is off on the general election trail. It's a little bit warmer here in Iowa which is a good thing. Barack Obama last night was received very warmly here, and essentially what he was doing is that he has come full circle but not to full victory. He is setting the stage for the next race. That is the race against John McCain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Barack Obama all but declaring himself the Democratic nominee.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have returned to Iowa with a majority of delegates elected by the American people, and you have put us within reach of the Democratic nomination for president of the United States of America.

MALVEAUX: In the state that made Obama the front-runner to beat, the newly-energized candidate brought out his family to thank supporters. And in an effort to reach out to Hillary Clinton and her backers, he offered this personal appeal.

OBAMA: We all admire her courage and her commitment and her perseverance, and no matter how this primary ends, Senator Clinton has shattered myths and broken barriers and changed the America in which my daughters and your daughters will come of age.

MALVEAUX: But Clinton conceded nothing. She trounced Obama in Kentucky's primary by 35 percentage points.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've achieved an important victory. It's not just Kentucky bluegrass that's music to my ears. It's the sound of your overwhelming vote of confidence, even in the face of some pretty tough odds.

MALVEAUX: She promised to fight on. CLINTON: I'm going on now to campaign in Montana, South Dakota and Puerto Rico. This is one of the closest races for a party's nomination in modern history. We're winning the popular vote, and I'm more determined -- I'm more determined than ever to see that every vote is cast and every ballot counted.

MALVEAUX: Obama winning Oregon saved his firepower for the presumptive Republican nominee, John McCain.

OBAMA: This year's Republican primary was a contest to see which candidate could out-Bush the other, and that's the contest that John McCain won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And, John, both the candidates are going to be in where else but Florida, but for different reasons. Barack Obama trying to win support, also trying to show that he can be competitive in a swing state for the general election.

Hillary Clinton trying to prove the point, make the point that Florida and Michigan delegates should count, should count on the portion that she sees as fit, as fair. So both of them crisscrossing the state of Florida today. Obviously this quickly coming to a close -- John.

ROBERTS: So, Suzanne, can we expect to see when San Juan covering the Puerto Rico primary?

MALVEAUX: I am pushing for it, John. You don't know how hard I am pushing for it.

ROBERTS: Well, you got Hawaii. You should get Puerto Rico, too. Suzanne, thanks very much.

So what did we learn from those primaries in Kentucky and Oregon? Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider joins us with a look at the exit poll. When you look at white voters, there are some pretty interesting information and it really shows two Americas.

BILL SCHNEIDER, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right. You had two states, same size, both of them overwhelmingly white, voting on the same day, opposite results.

Well, one reason is Barack Obama didn't campaign much in one of the states. That was Kentucky. But they also have completely different political cultures. Take a look at white voters in Kentucky.

There, Clinton over Obama by three to one. These are Appalachian whites, more rural, less liberal, more religious.

Now, look at white voters in Oregon. Again, overwhelmingly white, but these are what I would call coastal white voters. They are more urban, more liberal, less religious. Obama, 57, over Clinton, 43. Will white voters support Barack Obama? Well, you know, it depends. Yes and no. Most -- what white voters are we talking about? I don't think there's any such thing as a typical white voter.

ROBERTS: Yes, I mean, he really won, as you said, white voters in Oregon. Did the same thing in Wisconsin, Virginia.

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

ROBERTS: I think he won in Maryland, too, and Georgia, but just a couple of places around the nation. So overall, does that suggest he's got some problems come November?

SCHNEIDER: He has some problems with certain kinds of voters, and most conspicuously Appalachian white voters in places like West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania.

ROBERTS: We also talked about this idea, too, that there has been such polarization in the Democratic Party that if one or the other becomes the nominee, those supporters will not support the one who eventually becomes the nominee. How did our exit polling show that to stack up last night?

SCHNEIDER: We asked in Kentucky. We asked Obama voters, will you support Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee against John McCain? The answer is 71 percent of the Obama voters said sure, they'll support Clinton. Only 15 percent would vote for McCain.

But look what happens when we asked Clinton voters, would you vote for Obama over John McCain?

ROBERTS: Wow.

SCHNEIDER: The answer is no. Only 33 percent, a third of Clinton voters would vote for Obama if that's the choice. More would support McCain. Two-thirds would not vote for Barack Obama.

The Obama voters would vote for Clinton. A lot of Clinton voters would not vote for Obama. We see this in state after state, and that is why Clinton claims she's more electable. Obama voters would stick with her, but many of her voters would not vote for him.

ROBERTS: That is really surprising. Bill Schneider, thanks very much.

SCHNEIDER: OK.

ROBERTS: Kyra?

PHILLIPS: What's next for the Democrats? On Sunday, June 1st is the Puerto Rico primary with 55 delegates at stake. Then on Tuesday, June 3rd, the final two primaries, Montana with 16 delegates, and South Dakota with 15.

Barack Obama closing in on the Democratic nomination for president, but Hillary Clinton isn't going anywhere for now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This continues to be a tough fight, and I have fought it the only way I know how, with determination, by never giving up and never giving in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: We're going to talk with a prominent Clinton supporter about her pledge to fight on.

Plus, more analysis from the best political team on television.

And Ted Kennedy and a deadly tumor. CNN's own brain surgeon, Dr. Sanjay Gupta shows us possible treatments next on this AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Senator Hillary Clinton offering well wishes to her colleague, Senator Ted Kennedy. This morning he and his doctors are deciding his next move to treat a malignant brain tumor.

Our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, he is a brain surgeon. He's also operated on this type of tumor. He's going to talk about exactly what's going on here with the possible -- I mean -- well, the possibilities of what doctors will do next. Surgery, chemotherapy, radiation. How do you decide what to do?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: A lot of decisions here. First thing is to figure out exactly what we're dealing it, and this is a GE diagnostic workstation. It's not FDA approved yet, but take a look at it.

You can get a very rare look at exactly what the brain looks like. As you make your way up through the brain, you can see the face start to declare itself. There you see the eyeballs and nose. Over here is the image that is so crucial here, Kyra.

The brain tumor from what we hear is somewhere in this region, the left parietal region, sort of blow that up a little bit. The question is, is it close to the surface here? Is it deeper down? That's going to make a difference.

Right in here, Kyra, this area over here is what is known as the motor strip area. That's an area that is responsible for movement. If the tumor is too close to there, it will paralyze the right side of his body.

This is also the speech area in here. This area, if the tumor is there could affect his speech. These are the decisions that the doctors are dealing with right now. Actually trying to get an idea of exactly where this tumor is located. But again, it's slice by slice. They look at this particular part of the brain.

PHILLIPS: And you know, you were so amazing. My grandfather passed from the same type of tumor, and you were the first one that I reached out to for a number of reasons. And, you know, it's hard to make this decision on what's the best way to go because of his age...

GUPTA: Right.

PHILLIPS: ... because of where the tumor is. So, I mean, really -- how do you really decide for what is the best move?

GUPTA: Well, it can be tough, no question. I do remember your grandfather well, Kyra. You know, one of the questions that doctors are going to have is, is this operable? If this is operable, then that's going to be the best course of action.

PHILLIPS: And that depends on size, right?

GUPTA: Depends on size, depends on specific location. It depends on its relationship to that motor area, to that speech area. If it's operable, that's going to be one of the best courses of action. Chemo and radiation --

PHILLIPS: Even at his age?

GUPTA: Even at his age, you know.

PHILLIPS: Because you taught me how inside the brain the tissue is softer, and it's more risky than a younger person brain surgery.

GUPTA: I think age is always going to be a factor here, but I think that, you know, most of these types of tumors that occur in this part of the brain, this type of tumor, are in older people. And its operations are done, and that is probably going to be his best shot if it is operable. Otherwise chemotherapy, radiation, and see if those things work for several weeks hoping that this tumor, sort of again in this particular area of the brain, starts to shrink.

PHILLIPS: And let's not forget, there are a number of people that have survived these types of surgeries and gone on to live a much more productive and better life and haven't had to worry about the memory loss or the seizures or any of the effects from these type of tumors.

GUPTA: That's right. I mean, it's a tough tumor to treat. I think any doctor, any neurosurgeon, you personally would know that. But there have been some good stories as well and, you know, fingers crossed that this thing will start to shrink either with surgery or with some sort of treatment.

PHILLIPS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always good to see you.

GUPTA: All right. Thanks, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Thanks so much.

And we're going to talk also with Dr. Bernadine Healy, coming up. She was actually diagnosed with brain cancer 10 years ago and she beat the odds -- John. ROBERTS: Twelve minutes now after the hour. A team of political all-stars standing by for us this morning. James Carville, Rudy Giuliani and Jane Harman are all joining us live.

Plus, a CNN exclusive, America's power grid vulnerable to cyber attack. All that and more ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, our primary has been long and hard fought. The hardest and most important part of our journey still lies ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Both candidates with big wins last night, but Barack Obama came away from last night's split decision with a lock on the party's pledged delegates. He now has the majority.

But Hillary Clinton is not going anywhere. She is still making her case that she is more electable and can win the nomination.

Joining us now live from Washington is California Congresswoman and Clinton supporter Jane Harman. Congresswoman Harman, no question a huge win for Hillary Clinton in Kentucky last night. But since her win in West Virginia, Barack Obama has outpaced her with these superdelegates by five to one.

Taking a look at this graphic here. Since West Virginia, he has collected 23 to her four. Does she have any hope left?

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: Yes, she does. She's won five out of the last seven primaries. She's earned the right to stay in this until it is over. And if Barack Obama admits, although he reached a big milestone last night, it's not over yet. And she'll have my support unless and until it's over.

I think she'd be a great president. I urge him should he win the primaries to build a unity ticket and in that regard, I think some comments of some of my colleagues that the vice president should be anybody but Hillary are not helpful.

ROBERTS: Right.

Well, do you think that she really could help him on the ticket? There are some people who say that if you want to be a president, you've got to have a vice president who supports you, doesn't necessarily overshadow you. And there is a potential that among some people who believe that she could.

HARMAN: Well --

ROBERTS: Or that people will always be questioning what would it have been like had she become president. HARMAN: It's his choice or her choice to make. It's a personal choice, and they need to build a team. But the enthusiastic support of each base, the base for him and the base for her, is what Democrats will need in order to win in November.

We have a tough opponent this fall, and as far as I'm concerned I'm going to work my heart out for a unity ticket. I should note that three out of four of my children are Obama supporters. And if he joked one day, he said, I like your mother but her children have very good judgment.

ROBERTS: Congresswoman, I want to get to Iraq because you just came back from there. But I want to ask you, Hillary Clinton keeps on saying I'm leading in the popular vote. That's the argument that I'm making to superdelegates is to why I should be the nominee. But where are the superdelegates that are buying into that argument?

HARMAN: Well, we can see that that is not happening, but it ain't over till it's over. I think this will be over on June 3rd or shortly thereafter. I think the superdelegates are now committing in greater numbers, and I don't want to predict that.

Hillary Clinton has earned the right to stay in the race. She's earned the right to be president should she win the primaries, and we'll let it play out.

I do want to add one thing on another subject that you've been talking about all morning, and that is I was a senior staffer in the Senate for some years. Senator Kennedy was a mentor to me, is a mentor to me, and my love and prayers go out to him and Vicki and their family.

ROBERTS: Just a terrible situation that they're in this morning.

Let me ask you about Iraq because you've just come back from there. What's the situation on the ground there?

HARMAN: The situation on the ground is improving. I was part of a leadership trip this weekend led by Speaker Pelosi. We also went to Israel and I went to Egypt as well.

Speaking of the ground, it's improving military and politically. There's a good news story there which leads me to feel that now is the time to change our combat mission and to start removing our troops. I think as soon as we are not perceived as occupiers, the Arab neighborhood will step up as they must do, to forgive Iraq's debts, to establish embassies in Baghdad, and to provide money. They should provide money. They all have oil surpluses for Iraq's reconstruction.

ROBERTS: Let me just ask you, are you saying that the Bush policy worked?

HARMAN: The Bush -- I frankly think the Iraqis' courage worked. That's the difference that I see. We met with the speaker of the parliament who is Sunni. We met with Prime Minister Maliki who is Shia. Both of them are optimistic about Iraq's future. I think that they are the ones in the end who will take this over the finish line, and we ought to understand that our role needs to change right now as Congress voted to do last week, as the House did last week by a majority vote.

ROBERTS: California Congresswoman Jane Harman, thanks for being with us this morning.

HARMAN: Thank you, John.

ROBERTS: Good to see you -- Kyra.

HARMAN: Good to see you.

PHILLIPS: Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, he led America's biggest city during the worst attack on U.S. soil. Find out what he thinks about sitting down with enemy nations. He's joining us live.

And tough math for Hillary Clinton. John King here on the magic wall to crunch all the numbers for us.

And fighting for the Cuban vote in Miami. Democrats try to pull off an upset in Florida.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Stormy night of extreme weather. Lightning in South Carolina has thousands of homes right now in the dark, and a tornado was also reported. Storms damaged campers there at the Lowe's Motor Speedway in North Carolina. Strong winds, rain, hail literally shutting down roads around Chesapeake, Virginia, as well.

Those storms also slammed Georgia. About a hundred homes damaged in Cherokee County just north of Atlanta. Don't know if it was a tornado or not, but the sirens were wailing all through the night. Fortunately, nobody was hurt there.

Rob Marciano is tracking all the extreme weather for us. He joins us now live. Hey, Rob.

ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Kyra. Pretty exciting times across the southeast last night. There were only three reports of tornadoes. One up in Montana and then the one here just north of Atlanta, and the one just north of Charlotte.

We'll go into the one towards Charlotte. As you mentioned, damage at Lowe's Motor Speedway. The big dunes there, they've got the Coca-Cola 600 happening this weekend. So this is a brown where the speedway is. Tornado was just south of Charlotte.

A lot of wind reports and the other big issue with this, a lot of hail. We had big time hail across parts of the Carolinas and also across Georgia. In some cases over four-inch in diameter hail. That's a size of a grapefruit, softball size. That is nasty, nasty stuff. Most of the action was north of Atlanta, and there was your tornado report in Cherokee County. That's with the track this way and did a decent amount of damage to about a hundred homes. As a matter of fact, we're watching the feeds come in live here from aerials now that the affiliates have their choppers up. And we'll give you some of those pictures later on in the program.

All right. Just south of Savannah, this is what's left. I mean, it's not a big deal. I think that the threat pretty much is over. Most of the energy is heading off offshore. But just south of Atlanta towards 95 between Savannah and Brunswick, a little cell left, but it's also weakening. So that's the good news.

The other issue of the day is going to be the heat and extreme fire danger. Gusts of 50 miles an hour, low levels of humidity, New Mexico and Arizona. The heat is broken or it's getting cooler, I should say, on the West Coast finally, but the heat is shifting a little bit and moving east. Kyra, back up to you.

PHILLIPS: All right, Rob, thanks so much.

MARCIANO: You got it.

ROBERTS: Two primaries, two different winners last night but Obama is closer to the nomination. Now, our John King looking at the numbers ahead on the magic wall.

PHILLIPS: And they could decide Florida according to Cuban vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He also wants to sit down unconditionally for a presidential meeting with Raul Castro, an unconditional meeting with Raul Castro.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Oh, McCain takes shots at Obama's policy. We're going to talk to a man who campaigned more than anyone else in that state. Mayor Rudy Giuliani next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The other side knows they have embraced yesterday's policies, so they will also embrace yesterday's tactics to try and change the subject. They'll play on our fears and our doubts. They'll try to sow discord and division to distract us from what matters to you and your future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Barack Obama in Iowa setting his sights now on John McCain. The Republican has been hitting his Democratic rival hard over foreign policy. Former New York Mayor and former McCain rival, Rudy Giuliani, now campaigning for the presumptive nominee, joins me once again this morning. Good to see you.

RUDY GIULIANI, MCCAIN SUPPORTER: Good morning.

PHILLIPS: It's getting nasty, I tell you what.

GIULIANI: It's only the beginning.

PHILLIPS: That is true. It just started, right?

GIULIANI: It's just beginning.

PHILLIPS: Hey, you know, let's just -- I want to start with the whole issue of meeting with rogue nations and certain leaders.

GIULIANI: Right.

PHILLIPS: The president in Jerusalem speaking at the Knesset created all that controversy saying oh, the Democrats, they're going to sit down and talk with terrorists. The Republicans are trying to prevent that.

McCain jumped in backing the president of the United States, and now we have Chuck Hagel coming forward and saying, "I'm very upset with John with some of the things that he's been saying. I believe that John is smarter than some of the things that he's saying. He's been around the world. I want him to get above that and maybe when he gets into the general election he will have a higher-level discourse on these things."

Coming from a Republican pal there, those are harsh words.

GIULIANI: Chuck has been a big opponent of Iraq and I think there's a separation there. But the reality is, John McCain is only saying what Hillary Clinton said. He should have quoted Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton, when Barack Obama first made these remarks, which I remember because I was running then, described this course of conduct of meeting with dictators, terrorists, and people like this or enemies of the United States without preconditions as naive and irresponsible on the part of Barack Obama.

So I don't know how everybody can get all upset at John McCain. I think John's comments were moderate in comparison to Hillary Clinton's understanding that this would be an irresponsible thing to do. This is a real issue. This is a real issue as outlined by the Democrats who oppose particularly Hillary Clinton.

PHILLIPS: You know firsthand the terrorists struck this city. I mean, you were walking through the rubble and you had to deal with this firsthand. Something has to change with regard to relations with these leaders.

GIULIANI: It does.

PHILLIPS: So you're saying absolutely not negotiate with any of these leaders, whether it be Syria, Iran --

GIULIANI: Certainly not without preconditions. That's the part of the statement that I think --

PHILLIPS: How do you define preconditions?

GIULIANI: Preconditions are -- not having preconditions is doing what Barack Obama wants to do. If I remember the first time he said this during a debate Hillary pounced on him.

He said I'll meet with them without preconditions. I'll just meet with them. I'll invite them to the White House to watch them the first year that I'm president. Kind of an open invitation to Asad, to Ahmadinejad, to Castro, to Chavez. This is absurd. An American president has never done that.

PHILLIPS: So you feel then with certain, with certain conditions --

GIULIANI: Well, I think every American president has negotiated but always with very severe preconditions. Things that have to be met, and with certain terrorists maybe you don't negotiate at all.

But certainly if you're negotiating with your enemies, there have to be preconditions on the table. Go back to the debates between Nixon and Kennedy. Kennedy understood this.

I think Hillary Clinton's comments really display the difference between experience and lack of experience, and I think John is also illustrating that. That Senator Obama really has very little experience in the area of foreign policy, foreign affairs, and his instincts seem to be wrong. That's a wrong instinct. The instinct should be we're going to demand a lot of them before we have a sit- down at a table with them.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about Florida, the Cuban vote. Historically has been Republican. This is an area that you hit hard during the campaign. Now, it looks like Republicans are starting to waver a little bit here.

John McCain hit Obama hard on this issue in opening up relations with Cuba, and then Obama came back with Wolf Blitzer and had this to say. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have never said that I was prepared to immediately normalize relations with Cuba. The only person who's flip-flopped on this issue is John McCain, who in 2000 said that he would be prepared to start normalizing relations even if a whole host of steps had not yet been taken. That's a reversal from the position he's taking now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: What do you say to that?

GIULIANI: Well, when he ran for the Senate he actually did take the position that we should normalize relations with Cuba. And everyone in the Cuban community knows it, which is why he has so little support in the Cuban community. So, that's not exactly an accurate statement when he was running and go back and check for the Senate in Illinois, was it 2004, 2006? 2004, I guess.

PHILLIPS: 2004.

GIULIANI: He took the position that we should open trade with Cuba. He's also taken the position as we discussed earlier that we should negotiate. Now it would be with Raul Castro without any preconditions. He would be the first American president, Democrat or Republican, including John Kennedy to ever take that position.

PHILLIPS: Should it happen?

GIULIANI: No, it shouldn't happen without preconditions, and the preconditions would have to be very, very strong. We should isolate Raul Castro. Raul Castro is no different than Fidel Castro except by Hollywood standards.

PHILLIPS: Isolation has never worked though all these decades.

GIULIANI: Oh, yes, it has.

PHILLIPS: How? Give me an example.

GIULIANI: Has Cuban communism spread throughout South America? There was a fear in the 60s, in the 70s, in the 80s that it was going to spread. The fact that we've isolated them and made them weak has stopped the spread of communism.

PHILLIPS: But what about Castro's relationship with a Hugo Chavez and Venezuela and there's a threat going on there -

GIULIANI: What about our relationship with Colombia and our relationship with Panama which we use as a hedge against that? There's a complexity here. Again, it's the problem Barack Obama has. He has not been involved in these issues. He doesn't really understand them and his instincts aren't very good.

PHILLIPS: You know, you got Republicans leading Republicans in the party saying McCain has got to disassociate himself from President Bush. President Bush has ruined the image of the Republican Party, taken the Republican Party down into the tank. You don't agree with that?

GIULIANI: I think President Bush has been - has not been treated as fairly as he should be, and I think President Bush is going to be a very different president when we look at him from historical purposes, particularly the way he kept us safe against -

PHILLIPS: How will he go down in history? You don't think it will be the Iraq war?

GIULIANI: Yes, I think it will go down as he has protected us against terrorism when nobody thought it could be done.

PHILLIPS: But the Iraq war is not about protecting us against terrorism. It's been the most unpopular and controversial war.

GIULIANI: You say that. That's your opinion.

PHILLIPS: No, no, I'm not voicing my opinion. I'm voicing what's out there. It's the realities.

GIULIANI: That your opinion is the Iraq war is some kind of a big mistake. My opinion is we wouldn't be safe against terrorism if we hadn't taken the action we took in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and now that we're having success against Al Qaeda and the other elements in Iraq, John McCain looks a lot better than he did a year ago. But in any event, the reality is we need a president who can handle terrorism. There's nothing in the background of Barack Obama that suggests he may be by instinct be able to do it, I don't see it. Nothing in his background to suggest that he would be able to handle this problem, at least he doesn't have the experience for it. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. John McCain is a proven commodity. We know he can handle terrorism.

PHILLIPS: By the way, 68 percent of the people here in the U.S. oppose the war in Iraq.

GIULIANI: Well, they do, but also a majority of them don't want us to precipitously to pull out the way Barack Obama does.

PHILLIPS: Well, that will be interesting to see the candidates take on the issue.

GIULIANI: Again, without thinking of the consequences of it. What would happen? What kind of civil war? Would you have a situation in Iraq like we're kind of seeing in Lebanon now between the Shiite and the Sunnis which is something John was one of the first to predict. I might add, I also predicted it. But you know, John understands this probably better than anyone and he is not the kind of Republican that you can say that's going to be a carbon copy of George Bush or anybody else. John McCain is a legitimate John McCain, that's him. He is different with George Bush where he disagrees with him, more than some Democrats have and he stood with him when he agrees with him. So, John McCain is an independent person. I don't think he can run that campaign against him.

PHILLIPS: Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani, always good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

GIULIANI: Thank you. Always good to talk to you, too.

PHILLIPS: All right. John.

GIULIANI: Thank you. JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up on 34 minutes after the hour, we have already talked with Barack Obama supporter New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson. That was earlier on AMERICAN MORNING. I asked him about Hillary Clinton's argument that Obama cannot deliver swing states like Kentucky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, NEW MEXICO: Well, by looking at results, Senator Obama has won 33 states. She's won 17. Now, if you also look at demographics in states like Colorado, Senator Obama won that. He's won Missouri. He's won many other states that are battleground states that in the past Democrats have not had a strong chance to win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Richardson also addressed McCain's criticism that Obama would meet with leaders of Iran and Syria without precondition. He said top level meetings would not happen without a lot of preliminary diplomatic work.

Hillary Clinton says she could make a case that she is stronger in the swing states that they need to win in the November election to take on John McCain. Our chief national correspondent John King is at the magic wall. Another hammering that she delivered to Barack Obama yesterday in the Appalachian state. How did it break down and what does it say about what could happen in November and in this race for the nomination?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What happened in this side last night, Oregon, obviously out there. But what happened over here, John, is a key argument of Hillary Clinton's case to the superdelegates. Let's take a look at the state of Kentucky. 65/30. That's a thumping by any definition of the world. Barack Obama some support here in the Louisville area, out here just east of Lexington, but all across the swathe of this state, and this is white small town working class rural America, she won, and won big. And she says look this is no aberration. And let's clear the board and pull out a little bit to the bigger neighborhood here. If you want to come back out, I'm going to stretch this out a little bit. I want to circle that area for you that includes Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, got some Kentucky, some Tennessee, some Virginia, even a little bit of North Carolina.

What Hillary Clinton says is that's me. I'm the light blue. Barack Obama is the dark blue. And she says look at me in rural America. And why does that matter? She argues to the superdelegates, well let's go back in time and let's look. Red is the Republicans in the general election. This is why George W. Bush is president of the United States, and that was not a one shot deal. Let's go back to 2000. George Bush winning in those areas as well. So, what Hillary Clinton says is it's not she could win all those states and not that she could win all those votes, but that she would go into a general election with a base, a foundation, in these swing states, Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky, maybe even down in Tennessee, over where she used to be the first lady in Arkansas, up here in Missouri. That she would be more competitive in these big states. That's her argument to superdelegates.

If you look just at this, John, it's a pretty compelling argument. And of course, if you go to the national map and look at other places, Obama has an interesting argument to make as well and Obama at the moment has the more compelling argument to make, which is this, which he is winning the delegates that matter and this under the existing rule is the finish line.

ROBERTS: Not the closest nomination space up there.

KING: Senator Clinton's best argument is think about November, don't think about that.

ROBERTS: Well, we'll see what the superdelegates think in the next two or three weeks. John King, thanks very much. Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Special election coverage with a team of all-stars continues. James Carville and Jane Harmon standing by to join us live.

And Senator Ted Kennedy's battle with a malignant brain tumor. What are his treatment options? That's also ahead on this AMERICAN MORNING.

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PHILLIPS: Alina Cho here with other stories making news this morning. Hello, it's not just politics.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. There's a lot of other news. Good morning, guys. And good morning, everybody. New this morning, Senator Ted Kennedy's doctors are waiting for more tests before deciding exactly how to treat a malignant brain tumor. Pictures released last night show the 76-year-old senator in good spirits with his family at his side, as you can see there. Doctors say the tumor is in an area of Kennedy's brain that could affect his ability to speak and move. The news stunned colleagues on Capitol Hill. Senator Robert Byrd, a long time friend of Kennedy, broke down on the Senate floor.

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SEN. ROBERT BYRD (R), WEST VIRGINIA: Ted, my dear friend, I love you, and I miss you.

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CHO: Doctors say Kennedy's tumor is treatable but not curable.

New York Governor David Paterson is expected back at work today after having emergency eye surgery. He had surgery to relieve pressure on his left eye. Governor Paterson is legally blind. He checked himself into the hospital yesterday with a migraine and doctors diagnosed him with acute glaucoma. Paterson was sworn in as New York's governor two months ago. Oil prices hit $130 a barrel for the first time today. Gas prices also hitting a record $3.81 a gallon. That's according to AAA. It is the 14th straight record high for gas prices.

And some remarkable footage to show you of a fish that is literally flying into the record books. Take a look. That is not a bird. It's a fish. A TV crew filming off the coast of Japan captured that fish completely airborne for 45 seconds. It was apparently traveling about 20 miles per hour, Kyra. You can occasionally see it tapping the water if you look closely, and that's to get momentum. The fish's flight time by the way, breaks the previous record by three seconds. Who knew they kept those kinds of records, but apparently that record was in place since the 1920s, but I am told that they glide, not flap, although that looks like flapping to me.

PHILLIPS: All right, John what kind of fish is that?

ROBERTS: It's a flying fish. How do you catch a fish like that/

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

ROBERTS: How do you catch a fish like that?

CHO: I don't know. With a net maybe.

PHILLIPS: You usually know a little details of things like that Mr. Factoid.

ROBERTS: Flying fish.

PHILLIPS: That's it?

CHO: That's the technical, that's the official name, flying fish.

ROBERTS: What else do you want? It's like a swordfish. What is it? It's a swordfish.

PHILLIPS: Swordfish with wings.

ROBERTS: There you go. 41 minutes after the hour.

He didn't declare victory but Barack Obama looks and sounds like someone who believes he's the Democratic nominee. We'll ask our political panel who they think would be a better opponent for John McCain.

And in our next hour, a CNN exclusive, the U.S. power grid vulnerable to cyber attack. It's the government versus hackers. Stay with us.

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SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some have said that your votes didn't matter, that this campaign was over, that allowing everyone to vote and every vote to count would somehow be a mistake, but that didn't stop you. You've never given up on me because you know I'll never give up on you.

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ROBERTS: Hillary Clinton may be the most famous woman to run for president, but she's not alone. It's your "A.M. Extra" now. The first was Victoria Woodhull who ran back in 1872 with Fredrick Douglas as her running mate. In 1940, comedienne Gracie Allen made a run for the White House with the Surprise Party, and 1972, Shirley Chisholm became the first African-American woman to seek a major party nomination. She received 151 delegate votes at the Democratic National Convention.

PHILLIPS: Charges of sexism in this campaign are starting to come from Hillary Clinton and even the candidate herself. Just a few minutes ago, I talked with former Clinton White House Press Secretary Dee Dee Myers about just that.

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DEE DEE MYERS, FMR. CLINTON ADMIN. PRESS SECRETARY: I think if you listen to the language that's been used, Hillary Clinton has been described as shrill, hectoring, lecturing, all the kinds, you know, words that we sometimes associate with unpleasantly with women. It was an event months ago where one of Senator John McCain's supporters stood up and said how do we beat the "b" word, rhymes with rich. And Senator McCain didn't even, you know, scold her. He said that's a good question.

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PHILLIPS: Should I repeat that Hillary Clinton is the candidate again?

ROBERTS: That's flying fish.

PHILLIPS: That's what happens when you have to write copy, I guess, at 5:00 in the morning. Anyway, sorry about that. Clinton has won big states. Obama has won more states, but who can make the case that they're ready to be leader of the free world. We're going to ask our political panel. And also again a look at the road ahead. And heading into Florida today, Clinton supporter James Carville joins us next. And former presidential candidate George McGovern supports Barack Obama, but some predict Obama is headed for an election disaster similar to McGovern versus Nixon in '72. We're going to talk to the man who managed McGovern campaign, Gary Hart straight ahead on this AMERICAN MORNING.

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SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, our primary has been long and hard fought, the hardest and most important part of our journey still lies ahead.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our party will have a tough choice to make. Who is ready to lead our party at the top of our ticket? Who is ready, who is ready to defeat Senator McCain in the swing states and among swing voters?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Both candidates celebrating victory this morning, but which one of them is better positioned to beat John McCain in November. Let's get to our political panel, and folks who do you think is best positioned? Who's the stronger candidate here?

JULIAN EPSTEIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, this is Hillary Clinton's argument. Hillary Clinton's agreement is that she's winning with swing voters, Reagan Democrats in the key states, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio.

ROBERTS: Does that make her stronger?

EPSTEIN: I think there's no question, but I think she's going to expand the argument. I think she will say not only is the popular vote essentially a tied argument that she's ahead but that she's doing better in many of the polls with independents. She will also expand the argument by talking about the other states which are really up for grabs when you do an Obama-McCain match up. Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, all states that have always been in the Democratic column that in all the match-ups right now with Obama close to tied. That should be an alarm bell for the Democrats.

ROBERTS: But, Liz, Barack Obama is saying he's stronger in nontraditional states.

LIZ CHADDERDON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I absolutely agree. Actually I want to get past the states. Let's talk a little about issues. I have seen some polling that he's literally leading John McCain by 30 points in some issues on health care, economy, my personal favorite, providing middle class tax relief. Barack Obama 50, John McCain, 32. Those are huge numbers. That's going to play no matter what state you're in across the country. So I really think Barack Obama is the right person to be our nominee.

ROBERTS: Whenever you mention the word McCain, Leslie goes huh?

LESLIE SANCHEZ, Republican STRATEGIST: No, because I think --

ROBERTS: What do you think of that.

SANCHEZ: Because working at the Republican National Committee I saw many polls that had Republicans lagging 20, 30, 40 percentage points behind Democrats on key issues like health care, economy. No doubt we need to work on our message, delivering it, and our Republican solutions are better than the Democrats. We have to make a better case for that. But it does some down to mobilization turnout and the intensity. Are you keeping those voters engaged and excited? Young voters is a great example. You have them, I almost call it the "spring fling." All these young voters that came out for Barack Obama doesn't necessarily guarantee that they're going to come out in the fall when they may become distracted with other issues. It's hard to say they will galvanize again.

ROBERTS: We still have to find out who the nominee is going to be. And a major step along that road is going to happen on Saturday the 31st when the DNC rules committee gets together to figure out what to do about Michigan and Florida. John, what do you think they could do?

You know, we talked with Donna Brazil last night. We said, if they're going to do something and there's this idea that neither campaign is going to be really happy about it.

JOHN DICKERSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The Clinton campaign of course wants all the delegates to go to her in a way. That's not going to happen. One of the great things about this process also, it's going to be televised. It's live. So this will be one wonderful car wreck to watch. But I think, you know, the notion it won't be great for either candidacy I think is actually a little bit wrong. I think they will find some way to split the baby. That's good for Obama. He's ahead in the pledge delegates. He's picking up the these superdelegates. Getting this resolved removes a small little barrier for him in the extent that small little barriers are still in the way of his march to the nomination. Good to have them out of the way. I think the only way it works for Clinton is if she gets everything, and that's highly, highly unlikely.

ROBERTS: For political junkies, it's going to be must-see TV. Folks, thanks very much. Kyra.

PHILLIPS: And for years South Florida has been a voting bloc that Republicans could rely on but that may not be the case much longer. We're going to tell you how Democrats are hoping to change the political landscape in the sunshine state.

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ROBERTS (voice-over): Magic numbers.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're winning the popular votes.

ROBERTS: If you count Michigan and Florida and if you don't count some caucus states. What another split decision primary night means for Clinton's road ahead. James Carville weighs in next on AMERICAN MORNING.

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ROBERTS: She won by 35 points in Kentucky, but that may not be enough to save Hillary Clinton's campaign. Does James Carville still hear some dogs barking? The Clinton supporter and CNN contributor joins us now live from Washington. Well, James we talked to you last week. You said this isn't over until the last dog dies. Are there still some dogs out there barking this morning? JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I right - I think right out in the Atlantic, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. I have been some dogs barking out there. You know, look, I think Senator Clinton's supporters in the country and I've been in east Tennessee, I have been in Louisiana, Nevada, they don't have any quitting in them right now. And I think that we've got - I think it's very important that this process play it out and see where it is and then we'll have to work towards leaving Denver unified.

ROBERTS: Barack Obama says that he crossed a significant threshold last night getting the majority of pledged delegates. Let's listen to what he said.

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SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have returned to Iowa with a majority of delegates elected by the American people and you have put us within reach of the Democratic nomination for president of the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: James, is this number of getting the majority of pledge delegates, I can't remember any previous candidates making this claim, though they may have. How significant is it?

CARVILLE; Well, just to quote, but I think he said elected delegates. And I don't think that's necessarily true. Maybe that's quibbling a little bit for Senator Obama. Look, there's no doubt that he right now has the delegate lead, but there's no doubt that he's the favorite to win this thing, but I think one important thing is that it's a 50/50 deal. Some of Senator Clinton's people that say she's ahead in the popular vote. Other people will say no. I think if we include Puerto Rico, it's going to be very interesting here, and I think that her position is going to continue to strengthen, and you know 35 points is a lot of points. I mean, you can slice it one way, you can slice it another way, but that's a pretty big and significant win, and I think with people in Kentucky said, in spite of the fact that, you know, by large numbers they thought Senator Obama would be the nominee, that they want Senator Clinton to stay in and they want her treated with respect and they want her to be allowed to make a case. And I think that's exactly what she's going to do. I don't there's any discussion whatsoever within the Clinton camp about so- called getting out right now.

ROBERTS: Yes, the calls for her to get out I think have pretty much diminished. It would seem as though people are comfortable with it going all the way through until the morning of June 4th.

CARVILLE: Right.

ROBERTS: She makes this argument that she's leading in the popular vote if you include Florida and Michigan, and Barack Obama's name wasn't on the ballot in Michigan so he gets none of that vote. And you also have to exclude some caucus states as well because they didn't have a popular vote. But -- and she also says she's stronger in the swing states, she can win those white working class voters but the question is where are the superdelegates who are buying into that argument.

If we take a look at the number of superdelegates who have pledged since the Pennsylvania primary back on April 22nd, Barack Obama gets 75 to Hillary Clinton's 23. Since West Virginia, her huge win there, May 13th, Barack Obama has picked up 23. Hillary Clinton has picked up four. So, James, where are the superdelegates that are buying into her argument?

CARVILLE: Honestly, I think the better argument that she has in -- let me try it and maybe somebody will pick it up from me, we offered to have elections and to pay for elections in Michigan and in Florida. They were stopped by representative of Senator Obama's campaign. So she has the complete moral case in Michigan and Florida, and the money was raised, the commitments were made, and it was Senator Obama that said, no, no, we don't want to run there. So I think that they have a very strong moral case to count the votes that were cast previously because it was the Clinton people and the Clinton campaign that wanted to go forward.

ROBERTS: But James with respect, the question is asked is where are the superdelegates who are buying into her argument that she's stronger in the swing states and she has the popular vote?

CARVILLE: I understand, and I say that Senator Obama is the likely nominee. I don't think they are making the most effective argument to some of these superdelegates, but I mean, there's no doubt that, you know, once it plays out in Puerto Rico, then someone else will count it this way. It's a 50/50 thing here. I think they could be making a more persuasive argument on some of these superdelegates on the basis that it was Senator Obama who chose to stand down in terms of a revote in Florida and Michigan.

ROBERTS: Is she going to be the nominee, James?

CARVILLE: It's not - that's not the likely course that this is taking right now.

ROBERTS: All right. James Carville for us this morning from Washington. James, it's always good to see you. Thanks for joining us.

CARVILLE: Thank you very much.

ROBERTS: All right. Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, we can now see the finish line. Barack Obama just 73 delegates away from becoming the Democratic nominee. He also claims the majority of pledge delegates last night with a 58/42 win in Oregon. Hillary Clinton, just like last week in West Virginia, won big in neighboring Kentucky, The final tally there, 65 percent to 30. If you ask her, she'll now claim the lead in popular votes. But a look at the current counting without Florida and Michigan shows that Senator Obama is still up by 500,000 in the popular vote. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux is live in Des Moines this morning. Suzanne, what do you think the strategy is going forward?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, there was a lot of talk about Barack Obama claiming victory last night, but he really didn't have to do that explicitly. The message was very clear not only to voters but also to the superdelegates that he is ahead, not only ahead, but has the majority of the pledge delegates now. So, the idea here is that he is the person to beat. That was the message that was clear to the superdelegate, and he made that message, he delivered that message here in Iowa. This is, of course, where the big win happened, surprised everybody, surpassed anyone's expectations that what he is trying to say is I can do this in a state that is 95 percent white. That is a swing state. A valuable state for the general election that now is time to get on board.

Take a listen.