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Campbell Brown
Democrats' Big Decision; Scott McClellan Speaks Out
Aired May 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone.
In about 12 hours, the Democratic Party's movers and shakers will be gathering in this Washington hotel's convention room to deal with the biggest unanswered question looming over this nomination. Michigan and Florida, will their votes count or not?
For Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, the stakes could not be higher. And there are big questions about what each camp really wants out of this meeting tomorrow. We are going to have all the details on that coming up in just a moment.
But, first, truth-teller or liar, Benedict Arnold or opportunist? Those are some of the labels that people are now giving former White House spokesman Scott McClellan for his controversial and unflattering book about the Bush White House. McClellan has had a lot to say, but you haven't heard anything like this.
My colleague, Anderson Cooper, sat down with McClellan this afternoon to ask him exactly what happened -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes, it's interesting.
He was attacked all week long, of course, by the White House and by its surrogates, especially today. They kind of came after him with a new attack. So, I wanted him to be able to directly respond to his critics on that.
But you will also hear in this interview him being held accountable for some of the things he's written. After reading the book, he seems to justify his silence during the White House years by saying he was in a bubble and caught up in the Washington game of politics.
As you will see tonight, I challenge him on those points and many others.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Here's what you said in 2006 just a few weeks before you stepped down at press secretary. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, APRIL 7, 2006)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There were people that were out there making irresponsible accusations that intelligence was manipulated or that intelligence was misused. There's been no evidence to back that up whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, here's what you say in the book.
You write that the Bush administration tried to -- and I quote -- "make the WMD threat and the Iraqi connection to terrorism appear just a little more certain using any window and implication to encourage Americans to believe as fact some things that were unclear or possibly false."
That sounds like intelligence being manipulated and being misused.
MCCLELLAN: Well, upon reflection, I was wrong.
I mean, the intelligence -- there's a couple of issues here. The Senate Intelligence Committee and others have gone in and looked at how the intelligence was used by policy-makers, or whether or not the intelligence -- there was pressure on the intelligence analysts and so forth to change the intelligence.
What they have not done -- or at least not released a report yet -- is gone in and looked at how the policy-makers used that intelligence to sell war to the American people. And there is a distinction here.
COOPER: You say, though, upon reflection, you realized you were wrong. But I mean, that was three years into your term. That was right before you almost left. You already had a lot of doubts.
How can you sell it so forcefully, almost angrily, when, in truth, according to your book, you were having doubts?
MCCLELLAN: Well, I was having doubts about the buildup to the war then.
Then, after the war, I clung to the hope that we could transform the Mideast, that Iraq would become this free democracy. And maybe, some day, it will. But the point is, you get caught up in that White House bubble and some of the larger perspective is obscured. You didn't see those larger...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: What does mean? You say you got caught up in the White House bubble. It's not a bunker. You have got Internet access. You have got newspapers.
MCCLELLAN: Well, there is a little bit of a bunker mentality, because you're there. You have this great affection for the person you're working for and it's hard to step back from all that and really reflect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tough stuff there.
And I know you also asked him about -- very pointedly about his role in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when he was pressed by reporters who were trying to get information. What did he tell you about that time, about what he saw, and his responsibility, frankly?
COOPER: It's stunning in the book. He point blank says that his role at the podium was to direct people and to criticize the state and local governments of Louisiana and New Orleans, which certainly deserved a lot of criticism, but to deflect any criticism from the White House or the federal government.
And time after time, that's exactly what he did at the podium. He says he believed it at the time, but in the book it's not really clear. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: On some of the Hurricane Katrina stuff, you write about that your job was to not focus -- you know, not allow criticism to hit the White House or the federal government, but to redirect it to local and state.
I mean, that wasn't sincere. That was a desire to just deflect, deflect, deflect, when you knew the White House...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLELLAN: Yes, I don't know that I said it exactly like that. But there was a breakdown at all levels of government. I said that from the podium when I was there.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I want to play just one Hurricane Katrina bite from your time on the podium. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: You're deflecting all specifics to the FEMA briefing.
MCCLELLAN: No, I'm not. I have given you some updates. But they are the ones who are in charge of operational aspects on the ground. And Department of Homeland Security is in charge of the operational aspects from Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: There, you're trying to get people talk to FEMA.
But elsewhere in the book, you write about your job -- seeing your job as deflecting blame from the White House on Katrina.
MCCLELLAN: Well, I mean, that's what happens in the whole atmosphere of the Washington game. Sometimes, you do try to deflect blame and responsibility. COOPER: But is that -- but that is not sincere?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLELLAN: Well, I think that, I mean, I'm not saying anybody that goes out and does that in Washington, D.C., isn't sincere. That implies that they're sinister or deliberately doing this.
I think they just get caught up in this Washington game, and that's what happens. And that's why I'm saying we need to change this. We need to move Washington beyond this. And that's why I hope any book, in some small way, will contribute to doing that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So many people said now that that, that was not the Scott McClellan they knew, not the Scott McClellan that they worked with.
COOPER: Yes.
BROWN: I mean, does he take full credit for the content and for the tone of the book, frankly?
COOPER: Yes. That's been a White House talking point for the last couple days. "I'm puzzled." Everybody has used the word puzzled over and over and over again, which is sort of fascinating.
BROWN: Right.
COOPER: I don't know if there was a memo that went out to say that everyone is puzzled, but they certainly seem to be.
He does take full credit. You know, he -- in fact, I play him sound that Ari Fleischer said about indicating that maybe it was an editor, a clever editor, who has really written this book.
Here's what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Here's another line that's used being against you right now, hints that maybe you didn't write this book or that some clever editor tweaked it and you're just kind of going along with it.
Here's what Ari Fleischer said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I talked to Scott yesterday. And I asked Scott if he had a ghostwriter. And he said, no, and then he added, but his editor did, in Scott's word, tweak a lot of the words, particularly as the book came much closer to publication deadlines this spring. Now, Scott has got his name on it. And he has stand by it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Did you write the book? Did an editor tweak it?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCLELLAN: Yes, I wrote it. Ari has still got his spin hat on right now.
It's not accurate, what he was saying, in terms of the conversation. That was before any reports of the book had come out. He had just touched base with me. I consider Ari a friend. And we had a conversation.
And we were talking -- he had written a book, and he was wanting to know how things went and what it might say. And I kind of gave him -- I said, it's a tough book, but I believe I have gotten to the truth, from my perspective in this book.
And he was asking questions about it. And what I referred to was the normal editing process that anybody goes through when they write a book. The ironic part about this was is that it was that Ari that wanted -- that initially planted the seed in my head that you might want to consider writing a book about your experiences.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: This will be probably the toughest interview Scott McClellan has so far faced. I was able to read the whole book and ask very specific questions about where he got the information he's now claiming to have. It's an interesting interview. We're going to be playing it in its entirety tonight on "360."
BROWN: And we will be watching.
Anderson, thanks much.
And, again, you can catch the entire interview with former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan tonight, "A.C. 360," 10:00 p.m. Eastern time.
And next, the Democrats' big decision and the chance of chaos and indecision.
Then, a little bit later, this guy and controversy seem to go hand in hand. We have got the backstory about the pro-Obama pastor whose anti-Clinton sermon touched off a political firestorm.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: For the Democratic Party, D-Day is just hours away from now. And who have thought, after all these months, all the debates, primaries and caucuses, the battle between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama comes down to what amounts to the 2008 version of the smoke- filled room?
And here it is, the site of tomorrow's meeting of the Democratic Rules Committee. Thirty of the Democratic National Committee's decision-makers will gather at this Washington hotel. Like judges, they listen to arguments and decide what to do about Florida and Michigan.
This meeting, though, will not be behind closed doors. In fact, we will be televising it right here on CNN. I will be in the Election Center starting at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time tomorrow. And we stay with it until the end. You will be the first to know what happens.
Now, CNN's national Democratic poll of polls shows Senator Obama 14 points ahead of Senator Clinton, 54 percent to 40 percent. But, as we said, 30 DNC members, the members of the Rules Committee, may have the final say.
You would have to be the ultimate political junkie to recognize all of these people, but there are some important things we can tell you at a glance. Thirteen of the 30 are Clinton supporters. Only eight declared for Obama. The other nine haven't said which candidate they want. So, there are plenty of open questions about who's going to do what tomorrow.
Here right now is our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, on what exactly we can expect.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 2000 election was a 'Remember the Alamo" moment in politics, enshrining let every vote count into the Democrats' lexicon.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Count our votes! Count our votes! Count our votes!
CROWLEY: A potent battle cry Hillary Clinton now uses to stir up supporters as she makes her case to count the results of the unsanctioned Michigan and Florida primaries.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe the Democratic Party must count these votes. They should count them exactly as they were cast. Democracy demands no less.
CROWLEY: It is a case her reps will make Saturday in a daylong process Democrats everywhere pray will end the nightmare that has become Florida and Michigan.
The meeting opens with a few "Can't we all just get along?" words from Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean, the task, find a way to punish Michigan and Florida delegations for holding primaries in violation of party rules in a solution that pleases party officials, Michigan and Florida officials, the Obama campaign, and the Clinton campaign.
All will have a chance to argue their cases, followed by lunch, and then discussions and votes on proposed solutions. Majority rules.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: What does Florida want?
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Count our votes.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: When?
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Now!
CROWLEY: Expect action outside the meeting. Clinton supporters want thousands to show up.
Inside, suffice it to say meetings of the 30-member Rules and Bylaws Committee do not play to sellout crowds, except for tomorrow, 500 tickets snapped up online in minutes. Still, chances are this may not live up to the hype.
Even if the committee gives Clinton everything she wants, all delegates seated reflecting her victories in both states, the bottom line Saturday night will be Obama still leading in pledged delegates.
Even the ever-optimistic Clinton campaign accepts the equation.
HOWARD WOLFSON, CLINTON COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: We understand the road ahead of us and we understand that Senator Obama has a lead in delegates.
CROWLEY: Still, legitimizing the results in Michigan and Florida, however it is done, will add to Clinton's popular vote total, a key figure she says superdelegates should consider.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How's it going, Tampa?
CROWLEY: The Obama campaign no longer insists on a 50/50 split of Michigan and Florida. They will agree to a compromise where she will get more of their delegates. They can afford to be generous. He is less than 50 delegates away from the nomination. He holds the cards. They both know that.
CLINTON: I feel really good about going through the weekend to see what the Rules and Bylaws Committee does with Michigan and Florida. We'll see what happens in Puerto Rico, Montana, South Dakota, then we'll see where we are.
CROWLEY: She has promised to take this all the way to the last state in the primary season. Wednesday, there will be no place left to go.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Last August, all of Clinton's supporters on the Rules Committee voted to strip Florida and Michigan of all their convention delegates. Clinton's campaign manager at the time said it was the right call.
Back then, no one knew how important those delegates would be to her. So, here's the way things stand right now. Barack Obama has 1,984 delegates. That's 202 delegates more than Hillary Clinton, and 42 short of clinching the nomination.
I'm going to bring in now tonight's political panel. We have CNN's Jessica Yellin, who is in Puerto Rico to cover Sunday's Democratic primary, which Hillary Clinton expects to win, we should mention. CNN contributor and Republican analyst Leslie Sanchez is in Washington. She's a former adviser to President Bush. And, in San Francisco, Joan Walsh, editor in chief of Salon.com, which usually leans to the left. And she is joining us from there.
Hey, Joan.
And welcome to everybody.
Joan, let me start with you.
Even if Clinton did get everything she's asking for tomorrow, Obama will still lead her in elected delegates. Why doesn't the Obama campaign, do you think, just concede, concede all the delegates, so that Florida and Michigan can be at the convention, the party can be happy, and we can move on?
JOAN WALSH, EDITOR IN CHIEF, SALON.COM: You know, it is a really good question, Campbell.
I think they don't because this is such a game of perception. And if they give her all the delegates that she would get if, you know, apportioned the popular vote the way she wants, it doesn't make her tie him. She certainly won't go ahead, but she will be closer. And so ironically she will seem to have done better, she will seem to be closer and it will strengthen her hand with the remaining voters who matter the most, the 170 or so uncommitted superdelegates.
So they can't really afford to let her get that close, it seems. I mean, anything's possible. I think people are meeting at dinner tonight. They don't have a full compromise yet, but they want to get one before the meeting tomorrow. So, who knows? Maybe they will come out and do that. But from everything I'm hearing, the Obama people won't go that far.
BROWN: Leslie, let me get your take on this, because we just heard Candy Crowley report that Senator Obama is willing to accept a compromise. He can afford to be generous, can't he? Or do you agree with Joan?
LESLIE SANCHEZ, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I actually agree with Joan.
I think that there's no way to allow the Clinton operating machine to kind of swing that door open. If they get a little bit of leverage, I think they are going to take it and run with it. And that's really always been part of the Clinton strategy, the long-term approach. I think, in terms of conciliatory language, it is going to be an interesting tap-dance how this moves together, but I think one thing we want to be mindful of, if the Clintons feel that they're not getting their due -- look at these blast of e-mails that they're sending these committee members -- just do the right thing -- that they're going to start and orchestrate a campaign that shows that she has momentum, she is still the best candidate.
I think it's a delegate dance for this committee tomorrow. But I don't think it ends. I think it is the beginning.
BROWN: Jessica, you have been with the Clinton folks down in Puerto Rico. Hillary Clinton certainly understands the math here. What do you think she really wants out of all of this?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, she wants a lot of notches in the belt. She wants to come out of Puerto Rico saying that she has won the overall popular vote, which is going to be a stretch for her, by the way, here. That will be very hard.
And she wants to be able to say after this weekend that she is the one who has got Michigan and Florida seated. She got every vote counted. You heard Candy talk about how essential that it is to the message of the Democratic Party. And then she can go and say she was this woman who sort of was the first champion who actually went through every primary, won every state, never backed down.
It is a song she plays at all her -- or many of her campaign gatherings, the Tom Petty song "Never Back Down." And she's looking ahead. You know, 2012 stands out there still. Those closest to Senator Clinton insists she is convinced Barack Obama cannot win in November and she is looking to the future and to her legacy and the rest of the career.
I do not think that Senator Clinton really, truly believes that she can win this one this year.
BROWN: All right, Jessica.
Hold on, guys.
Next week could be the most crucial week of the campaign. I want to ask each of you how it will play out.
And then later, a frightening and deadly accident here in New York City, the second in just two months. In just a moment, there's new video of this construction crane just seconds after it fell.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More than 32 million people voted in Democratic primaries and caucuses this year. And we shouldn't forget, Tuesday is the final primary day.
And, once again, Jessica Yellin, Leslie Sanchez and Joan Walsh are back with us.
Let me ask everybody this question.
And I will start with you, Joan.
Game it out for me. We know this week -- or next week, rather -- is a crucial week. Tell me how you think it's going to play out.
WALSH: Well, I think probably, Campbell, her best day is going to be Monday, because she's going to come off of a big win in Puerto Rico.
As Jessica said, I don't think it's going to be as big a win as she needs to really have that popular vote momentum. Then Tuesday's a funny day for her because it's unlikely -- she's behind in Montana. She is behind in South Dakota. She could surprise us in South Dakota, but she could wind up losing both.
And I think it's very hard to come off losing two -- the last two primaries and say, I have got the momentum. I'm electable.
So, I really expect she will be under a lot of superdelegate pressure. Nancy Pelosi has already promised to begin to tweak some ears to get the superdelegates to declare. So it's unlikely she goes on next week.
The only caveat I guess I would put in there is, you know, the Clinton people were very upset about the way the Obama camp played the RFK assassination remark, hard feelings there, hard feelings around Father Pfleger's awful, awful comments.
So the respect that she needs, this game we have all talked about, about showing her the right kind of respect, they took a couple of steps backwards in the last week, so it's hard to know what the feelings are going to be on Wednesday morning. That is what makes it unpredictable to me.
BROWN: Yes, a lot of emotion driving this, Leslie, don't you think?
But also address the point that Joan made about superdelegates, because it seems like Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, we could possibly see a flood of superdelegates come forward, as they have been asked to do by the Democratic Party leaders. What do you think?
SANCHEZ: Very true. They have definitely been lobbied to do so.
And I think we should always bear in mind these superdelegates are very much -- I call them the fat cats, union bosses, the Democratic Party heads, but they're also the safety valve. They're the ones that are going to make the best decision and say, looking at everything, is this going to be the best candidate moving forward to be competitive in November?
I will tell you this. If you look at the matchups in Gallup recently, it is very interesting. It's going to be very competitive. And I still believe that the Clinton campaign thinks that there's more than -- well, about a 50 percent chance that they can keep the momentum going.
What is interesting now, she does have a lot more negotiating ability, whether it's a V.P. slot or whatever that may be or raising money, the prowess that the Clinton campaign has to do that. She's coming away with it with a lot more negotiating ability.
BROWN: Jessica, you probably know best what's going on in their heads right now. What do you think happens early next week?
YELLIN: Well, I think that emotion plays a role, but the Clintons are pragmatists above all. And as soon as they get the sense that this is in any way hurting them more than helping in a significant way, they make their deal and they make the play to end in this in a polite and in a respectful way.
So I think it's this either week or it's next week, as soon as they get the indication that the remaining superdelegates as we have all been reporting and we all know are overwhelmingly leaning toward Barack Obama, they will sit down with the Obama campaign in some fashion, make some outreach to them and express whatever it is that the Clintons really want. That's the big unknown.
None of us really understands what it is. Does she want that V.P. slot? Is it just the money or does she just want to come out of this looking and smelling good?
I talked to some of Clinton's longest time supporters, her most ardent backers, people you could otherwise consider dead-enders. They know it's over.
BROWN: Right.
YELLIN: The Clintons know that, unless an asteroid hits him, it's over.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: It's how she gets out now.
BROWN: Yes. All right. Guys, Jessica, Leslie, Joan, we have got to end it there. But thanks to all of you.
SANCHEZ: They do have that telescope, Campbell.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: All right. Appreciate it, guys.
And, of course, we should mention the best political team on television will be all over tomorrow's crucial meeting. Join me at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time tomorrow for full coverage. You will know the outcome of that meeting as soon as it happens. And once again a Chicago church, political sound and fury booming from the pulpit and political opponents trying to connect it to Barack Obama -- in a moment, our look at the controversial priest at the center of this latest flare-up.
Plus, stunning new video from the deadly collapse of a construction crane here in New York City. We will have that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Unwarranted, uncalled for, disgraceful, those are John McCain's words today, blasting the Chicago priest who mocked Hillary Clinton during a sermon from the pulpit of Barack Obama's church last Sunday.
Reverend Michael Pfleger has apologized. And Obama called his remarks deeply disappointing. As a state senator, Obama directed a $100,000 grant to a community center affiliated with Pfleger's church. A McCain campaign official tells us that speaks to Obama's judgment. And they intend to raise it as an issue during the campaign.
Obama and the Reverend Michael Pfleger have been friends for 20 years and the priest has a long reputation for causing controversy. So, Pfleger's suggestion that Hillary Clinton felt entitled to the presidency is no real surprise. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REV. MICHAEL PFLEGER, CHICAGO ACTIVIST: This is mine.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PFLEGER: I'm Bill's wife. I'm white, and this is mine. I just got to get up and step into the plate.
And then out of nowhere came: Hey, I'm Barack Obama.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PFLEGER: And she said oh, damn. Where did you come from?
(APPLAUSE)
PFLEGER: I'm white. I'm entitled. There's a black man stealing my show!
BROWN: If this video of Reverend Michael Pfleger preaching last Sunday is the first time you ever have seen him, it's no fluke.
PFLEGER: She wasn't the only one crying. There was a whole lot of white people crying.
BROWN: So, who is this guy? He is the white pastor of a largely black Catholic church in Chicago's South Side. It's a world of activists, in-your-face preachers. Think Reverend Jeremiah Wright. Think Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan. They have both spoken at Pfleger's church.
And Pfleger was in the audience for Wright's now notorious performance at the National Press Club in Washington, the last straw that forced Barack Obama's break with his longtime pastor.
Pfleger has made no secret of his support for Obama.
PFLEGER: Absolutely support him. I have known him for over 20 years, did community organizing with him.
BROWN: Like Obama, like Wright and others, Pfleger is immersed in the Chicago South Side's world of religious social and political activism.
Ten years ago, Pfleger led a boycott to force a Chicago TV station to dump Jerry Springer. Remember all those TV fistfights? Pfleger denounced the show as socially irresponsible because, in his words, it glorifies violence and promotes profanity.
Last year, because of the wave of shootings in Chicago, he and Reverend Jesse Jackson were arrested protesting at a Chicago gun store. He was also in Louisiana for the massive march supporting the Jena 6.
Despite all of his good with the YouTube video now a political fireball, there are calls for Pfleger to be removed from his church. He's been pastor there since 1983.
There have been controversies and calls for his removal before and so far Pfleger is still there. Today his boss, Chicago's Cardinal Francis George, issued a statement saying Pfleger has promised not to campaign or to publicly mention a candidate from now on.
When we come back, the Obama campaign preparing for the all- important Rules Committee showdown tomorrow. We thought we'd take a look back at one of Obama's first political campaigns. And what we learned is that Obama is a master of using the rules fairly and to his full advantage he does play hardball.
And we've got some pretty unbelievable video to show you. It was taken just seconds after the collapse of a construction crane here in New York City. That's still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You know, Barack Obama's critics say that he is just too inexperienced to be an effective president but in his very first campaign for public office, Obama showed a side that most voters know very little about.
Investigative reporter Drew Griffin looked back to 1996 and found a candidate who played by the rules to ensure that he would win.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's running on change. No more politics as usual.
OBAMA: But we know in our hearts we are ready for change.
GRIFFIN: But here on Chicago's South Side, in his first race for office, Barack Obama relied on old, bare knuckle political tactics to eliminate a popular incumbent and launched his political career in the Illinois State Senate. "Chicago Tribune" columnist John Kass says it may not sounds like the Obama way, but it is the Chicago way. And back in 1996, Obama used it to full advantage.
JOHN KASS, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE" COLUMNIST: To use lawyers in our -- you know, this is not the message of Barack Obama. Let everyone join the democracy and our ideas -- better ideas shall triumph. Right? No.
That was Chicago politics. That got your position. Challenge your petitions. Destroy your enemy, right?
GRIFFIN: Obama had been a grassroots organizer in this gritty neighborhood registering thousands to vote before going off to Harvard Law School. He came back to Chicago to work as a lawyer, saw a chance to run for State Senate. But in his first race for office, he made sure Democratic voters had just one choice. Him.
GHA-IS ASKIA, FORMER CANDIDATE: You listen. Right? That's what I'm saying. I wouldn't have done it.
GRIFFIN: Gha-is Askia is no longer in politics. The race against Obama was his last. He and two other Democrats were kicked off that ballot before a single vote was cast. How?
Obama sent a team of lawyers and volunteers to the Chicago Board of Elections and challenged the petitions of his opponents. He needed 757 signatures of registered voters to become a candidate. Askia said he gathered 1,899. But when the Obama team was through challenging his signatures, addresses and voter registrations, Askia came up 69 signatures short.
ASKIA: I fought for every signature. It was going on technicalities.
GRIFFIN: If names were printed instead of written in cursive, they were kicked off, campaign workers told CNN. If signatures were good but the person collecting the petitions wasn't properly registered, all of those signatures were kicked off.
ASKIA: Yes. So it was technicality.
GRIFFIN: Jay Stewart with Chicago's Better Government Association says there is nothing illegal about what Obama did. In fact, it's the way politics are played in Chicago.
JAY STEWART, BETTER GOVERNMENT ASSOC. OF CHICAGO: Politics ain't bean bag as they say in Chicago. You play with your elbows up, and you're pretty tough and ruthless when you have to be. Senator Obama felt that was necessary at the time and that's what he did.
You know, it doesn't fit in with the rhetoric now? Perhaps not.
GRIFFIN: But Askia wasn't the incumbent. When we come back, how Barack Obama also wiped out the rest of the competition.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: After the break, more of Drew Griffin's report plus a response from the Obama campaign's chief strategist.
Also tonight, a crane collapses here in New York City. There is new video from the moments after it happened. We're going to have that to show you. Just now coming in. You're not going to want to miss that. Stay right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: And when my mother got old enough, she was able to get scholarships to go to fine colleges --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You are looking live at Senator Barack Obama speaking at a campaign rally in Great Falls, Montana. Montana holding its primary next Tuesday. Montana, though, a long way from Chicago, which is where Barack Obama cut his political teeth more than a decade ago.
The rough politics of Chicago's South Side. And the question now is, did those lessons prepare him to play hardball in Washington?
Well, as you heard from Drew Griffin before, Obama gained experience playing by the rules but still playing for keeps. Here's part two of Drew's report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN: Barack Obama was a relative unknown in 1996 when he first ran for office. To win, he had to get around the five-year incumbent Alice Palmer.
After losing a bid for Congress, Alice Palmer decided to try to keep her Senate seat. She would have been tough competition for a newcomer, but Obama planned to beat her before she ever got on the ballot. Will Burns was one of the volunteers assigned to challenge Alice Palmer's signatures.
WILL BURNS, OBAMA VOLUNTEER: One of the first things you do whenever you're in a middle of a primary race or any race, especially in primaries in Chicago, you look at the signatures, because if you don't have the signatures to get on the ballot, you save yourself a lot of time and effort from having to raise money and have a full- blown campaign effort against.
GRIFFIN: And you guys successfully kept her from running. You also did your job on everybody else on that ballot.
BURNS: The rules are there for a reason.
GRIFFIN (on camera): We have had multiple conversations with the Obama campaign about this story, and one of them, the campaign called this report a rehash. In another, they said it was a hit job. The campaign refused to give us an interview about the story but did refer us to an Illinois State representative.
Well, we called her. But she told us she didn't know much about why, when, or how Barack Obama challenged all those petitions. Then the campaign also directed us to a quote the senator gave the "Chicago Tribune" last year.
"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had been set up," Obama told the "Tribune. "My conclusion was that if you couldn't run a successful petition drive, then that raised questions in terms of how effective a representative you were going to be."
In that same "Tribune" article, Obama had this appraisal of that incumbent, Alice Palmer. "I thought she was a good public servant."
Alice Palmer who is now campaigning for Hillary Clinton told CNN she doesn't want to talk about her elimination from the ballot by Obama.
BURNS: I don't think he enjoyed it. It was not something that he particularly relished. It was not something that I thought he was happy about doing.
GRIFFIN: But in 1996, Alice Palmer, who along with her husband Buzz (ph), two legendary South Side activists, learned you didn't have to be a Chicago native to play like one. Alice Palmer never ran for public office again.
Drew Griffin, CNN, Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Now we did ask one more time for the Obama campaign to comment on the story, and joining me now is Senator Obama's chief campaign strategist, David Axelrod.
And, David, I know that you think the story doesn't give the full context what was happening during Obama's campaign against Alice Palmer. So give us that context. Tell us what was going on.
DAVID AXELROD, OBAMA CAMPAIGN CHIEF STRATEGIST: Well, Campbell, far be it for me to challenge the best political team on television.
BROWN: Oh, come on. We don't mind being challenged.
AXELROD: There was a big, big piece -- a big piece of the story that was missing here, and that is that Alice Palmer as was mentioned was an incumbent state senator who decided to run for Congress and urged Barack Obama to run for the Senate, supported him, introduced her to her supporters and asked them to support him.
And then, after the Congressional race didn't work out, decided to drop back into the race. And many of the supporters who had supported her previously were supporting Obama then, and she failed to get sufficient signatures to be on the ballot. That's an important part of the story.
And maybe that's -- and I'm not ascribing that to Chicago politics that someone says they're dropping out and then they drop back in.
BROWN: Right.
AXELROD: That happens in politics, but that really should have been part of the story. Mr. Askia who was mentioned in that piece dropped by our headquarters today and said that he gave a statement, and said that he was hurt and disappointed with the CNN piece because he gave a 45-minute interview and was effusive (ph) about Obama, and said that he went to Ohio to campaign for Obama for president. So, you know, these are things that would have been useful information for your viewers in the piece and I know worth noting.
BROWN: OK. Well, I'm glad you did. Now, Drew -- in fairness though, Drew did ask for comments throughout the piece. But we're glad we got you on to be able to respond to some of those things.
AXELROD: I'm happy to be here.
BROWN: I do want to move on to tomorrow though, and what's going to happen with Michigan and Florida, and go back to the question that we've been asking a lot tonight. Is your approach to this, I mean, why not give Hillary Clinton everything she wants? Because ultimately, it's not going to make a difference as to who gets the most elected delegates. Why not just concede all that and move forward?
AXELROD: Well, first of all, let's state from the outset that we are completely committed to Florida and Michigan participating in this convention, and they will participate in this convention. But Campbell, there were rules. The rules were written by many of Senator Clinton's key supporters, Harold Ickes and others.
We all agreed to the rules. We abided by the rules. We took our name off the ballot in Michigan because we were trying to abide by those rules. We didn't campaign in Florida, and everybody agreed that these contests would not be valid.
And then somewhere when she -- when the race began to turn and her situation changed, Senator Clinton turned around and said, no, wait a second. Maybe we should count these.
Well, the fact is that rules are important and so what we want is a resolution that allows Florida and Michigan to come to the convention, participate in the convention, but do it within the rules of the party. And I think that's what the Rules Committee will decide tomorrow.
BROWN: All right. David, well, we will all be watching tomorrow hoping to find out what happens. I'm sure you're anxious as well, and then we look forward to Tuesday night and see where things go from there.
David Axelrod joining us tonight.
David, thanks.
AXELROD: Good to be with you, Campbell. Thank you.
BROWN: In just a moment, McCain says Obama does not have what it takes to deal with dictators and unfriendly foreign powers. But what exactly does that mean? In terms of foreign policy, what does it take? We'll explain when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: All this week, John McCain has hit Barack Obama pretty hard saying that he doesn't have the foreign policy knowledge that a president needs to have and it's not just about Iraq. The next president whoever it may be is going to face a long list of challenges overseas.
So what do Obama and McCain bring to the table? Fareed Zakaria is CNN's World Affairs analyst and the host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" and he's joining us right now.
So I want to kind of look at this I think in a big picture sense, but let me first play a little sound bite for you. This is the answer that Barack Obama gave almost a year ago during the CNN YouTube debate that he's gotten a lot of criticism for. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN SORTA, DIAMOND BAR, C.A.: In 1982, Anwar Sadat traveled to Israel, a trip that resulted in a peace agreement that has lasted ever since. In the spirit of that type of bold leadership, would you be willing to meet separately without precondition during the first year of your administration in Washington or anywhere else with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?
COOPER: I should also point out that Stephen is in the crowd tonight -- Senator Obama?
OBAMA: I would. And the reason is this. That the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration is ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, I don't want to get into the politics of this so much but more the policy, because if he were elected president, this would be a vastly different approach than what we have seen over the last eight years for sure. What does it mean? What are the inherent risks in this kind of diplomacy?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Campbell, the key is what you mean by preconditions? Because in fact, while the Bush administration started off with a very rigid position that they were not going to negotiate with anyone, in fact, right now they're negotiating with the Libyans, whom they call terrorists. They're negotiating with North Korea, which is one third of the axis of evil and, of course, General Petraeus is negotiating every day with Sunni insurgents whom he called terrorists only a year ago.
The key is do you mean by preconditions that, you know, you're going to give away the store? Is it -- negotiating with these people, talking to them is not the issue it seems to me. The question is what do you give away?
And I think Senator Obama is actually on fairly strong ground and saying we should be talking to these people if you mean by that, you know, if McCain means we shouldn't be, you know, talking unconditionally. That's why I say you get into the whole issue of what does it mean to talk about preconditions?
BROWN: Well, let's look at it from McCain's perspective, too, because he's been trying to draw a contrast to Obama on this issue, but he is not totally in line with George W. Bush either in terms of his approach. Where does he differ from the current president?
ZAKARIA: It's a difficult question because McCain used to be more of a kind of hardheaded, pragmatic Republican, the type of Henry Kissinger or Brent Scowcroft. The Iraq war, I think, has a neocolonized him, if you know what I mean. He's found neoconservative allies, and he sounds more like them.
He talks about the league of democracies. He talks about expelling Russia from the G8. He talks about China as a threat because it's not -- because it's an autocracy.
So he's mixed up right now. I'd say he's half neoconservative, half old-fashioned Republican hardhead.
BROWN: It's going to be an interesting debate, for sure.
Fareed Zakaria with us tonight.
Fareed, thank you very much.
ZAKARIA: My pleasure.
BROWN: And we should mention, though, this weekend Fareed sets up shop in the global public square. "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" premiers Sunday 1:00 p.m. Eastern time. You don't want to miss it.
Fareed, thanks again.
ZAKARIA: Thank you.
BROWN: And "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up at the top of the hour. He's got a story tonight that is literally out of this world. Larry is here now.
What's going on tonight, Larry?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Well, Campbell, we're going to look at those twisters tearing through the Midwest. We've got incredible video and survivor stories coming your way.
Plus, E.T., is that you? Did an alien look through a Colorado man's window? Is this proof the world is waiting for?
Oh, Campbell, I can't wait. We'll also look at the presidential race. All at the top of the hour. I'm so excited.
BROWN: I am, too, Larry. That E.T. story especially. All right.
KING: Yes. Me, too.
BROWN: There are some developing news stories you do need to know about. There's now some pretty amazing video of a construction crane actually falling in New York City.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Erica Hill with us right now with "The Briefing" -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell, we begin with some unbelievable video from this morning's deadly crane collapse here in New York. Images captured on a cell phone later posted on "NewYorkPost.com." Take a look.
Just incredible stuff there. Two people were killed including the crane's operator. City investigators are trying to determine the cause. In March, another construction crane collapsed in the city killing seven people.
The fate of hundreds of children taken from a polygamist sect in Texas is uncertain tonight after a judge refused to sign an order which would return those children to the YFZ Ranch. Texas authorities have started working out a plan to send the kids home next week. But today a judge said she wants more restrictions on the parents -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Erica, thanks.
So how do presidential candidates connect with regular folks? Well, bottoms up. Next, the stagecraft with alcohol.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This presidential campaign could drive some voters to drink and some of the candidates, too. Believe it or not, alcohol is now a key ingredient in campaign stagecraft. Tom Foreman, explain it.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, the campaign trail is here, has looked like a tailgate party at Penn State, but these candidates are not just thirsty. This is stagecraft with a twist.
Clinton battling for the working class voters has been bending elbows coast to coast. Shots of whiskey, tumblers of bourbon and bottles of beer, too.
Obama, well, he's been knocking back the cold ones, too, as part of operation I'm just a regular guy. And the funny thing is all of this really does matter to voters.
A recent study in the journal of "Political Psychology" says many average voters make their choices not so much on the candidates' positions but instead on whether or not the campaigner is like them and agreeable. And nothing says that quite like bellying up and sharing a brew.
BROWN: So Tom, you're saying this can actually matter more than the candidates' experience?
FOREMAN: If for many voters, absolutely. And here is some highly unscientific evidence. In the last election, voters said they would rather share a beer with George Bush than with John Kerry. And even though it ended up being a race that was very close, President Bush won and he won while acknowledging having a drinking problem and saying he doesn't even drink anymore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Addiction is hard to overcome. As you might remember, I drank too much at one time in my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Rock the Vote recently asked, who do you want to share a beer with among the three big names in this race? Obama tied with none of the above for first. Clinton was next, and McCain came in right behind her.
BROWN: Which brings up a point, Tom, because you haven't said much about McCain.
FOREMAN: Well, this particular stagecraft is something he should be wary of, Campbell. He wants the votes of conservative Christians, and they are generally less likely to drink or approve of drinking.
In addition, McCain's recently released medical records indicate he's not much of a drinker anyway. However, his wife Cindy is a multimillionaire because of a family fortune built on beer sales, and I'm sure he'll drink to that -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Tom. Thanks.
"LARRY KING LIVE" right now.
