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INSIDE AFRICA
Darfur Still Suffering; Human Rights Problems in Zimbabwe
Aired June 14, 2008 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Isha Sesay. Welcome to INSIDE AFRICA, your weekly window to the continent.
On the program this week, Nick Robertson travels across Sudan to talk to government's officials about the suffering in Darfur.
Sudanese hip-hop star and former child soldier Emmanuel Jal explains how he's using his art to raise awareness about the conflict tearing his country apart.
And Human Rights Watch issues a scathing report alleging widespread human rights abuses by Zimbabwe's ruling party and its supporters. We hear from the report's author and the Zimbabwean government.
We begin with Darfur, which the International Criminal Court prosecutor calls a crime scene. Luis Moreno-Ocampo says the Sudanese government has taken no steps to arrest two men for war crimes committed in the war-torn region, including Sudan's minister of state for humanitarian affairs. Nic Robertson recently traveled to Darfur and Khartoum and spoke to government officials about the charges.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are the two Sudanese men the International Criminal Court say should be behind bars -- former state minister of interior Ahmed Haroun and Ali Kushayb, alleged Janjaweed militia commander. Both, according to prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo, guilty of crimes against humanity and war crimes in Darfur. And both still free.
On my recent visit to Sudan, the interior minister told me such crimes (inaudible).
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
ROBERTSON (voice over): When we went to Darfur to see for ourselves, we found its people still suffering.
The few people we are seeing around here seem very cautious, very afraid, very hesitant to make any contact with us.
Here, eyewitnesses say, government planes and helicopters, backed by militia on horse and camel back, known as Janjaweed, attacked defenseless civilians barely four months ago. 58,000 people fled. 115 were killed, they say. The government says rebels had taken control of the area. It was just reestablishing its authority. A U.N. human rights report has a different view, saying the government broke international humanitarian and human rights laws. They failed to distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives.
More than 4 million people have been affected by the five-year war. Close to half the population of Darfur -- some 2.5 million people -- live in displacement camps. 300,000 people have been killed. U.S. President George Bush has called the killings genocide. But bringing those responsible for carnage to justice has never looked tougher.
In the capital Khartoum, I met Musa Hilal. The United States accuses him of being a leader of the Janjaweed militia responsible for atrocities and has banned his travel. His assets were frozen by the U.N. Security Council, something he considers a mistake. He denies any wrongdoing.
MUSA HILAL, FORMER JANJAWEED COMMANDER (through translator): There is no genocide. It does not exist. Nothing of this nonsense. Most people came to the refugee camps because of pressure, and were used there for political marketing.
ROBERTSON: (inaudible) Sudan's president. He works quite openly out of a government building. International sanctions, it seems, are having limited impact.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Well, I spoke to Nic at length about his reporting in Sudan. Coming up, he discusses the government's denials of crimes against humanity in Darfur.
And still ahead, Sudanese hip-hop star Emmanuel Jal explains how he's using his painful experience as a child soldier to raise awareness about his country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Welcome back to INSIDE AFRICA. As we reported in the last segment, the Sudanese government denies war crimes have been committed in Darfur. And it's taken no steps to arrest two men indicted by the International Criminal Court, including one of its own ministers. I had a chance to talk with Nic Robertson about what he found during his recent trip to Sudan. I began by asking him whether he thinks the government will ever cooperate with the ICC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: The government denies the numbers of people who have been killed. U.N. says about 300,000. They say, no, it's only around 10,000. The minister of interior, when we talked to him, denied that there were -- there were any crimes against humanity going on. This is something the U.N. says is happening as well.
When we were in Darfur, we spoke to a humanitarian aid coordinator from the Sudanese government. I talked to him about rapes, the mass rapes that are going on. He said no, there are no rapes here, people are only being told to say that. This is something that they've learned.
There is a dislike, an intense dislike of the international community getting themselves involved in the Darfur situation. And also, a belief from Sudanese government officials that the media has overplayed the situation there, and this is bringing the negative image of what the Sudanese government is doing in Darfur.
So, where Sudanese government is right now, it does not seem that it's about to change their opinions anytime soon.
A U.N. peacekeeping force came into existence in the beginning of the year. And they took over from the African Union peace monitoring force. The new U.N. peacekeepers have the right to shoot back. They have armored vehicles. What they don't have is the number of troops. They have at the moment one third of the number a troops that they are supposed to have. They were supposed to have 26,000. They have at the moment barely 9,000. They can't patrol the area, because they haven't been given the helicopters that they're mandated to have.
SESAY: Do we have any indication from the United Nations -- it's a hybrid force, the United Nations-A.U. force -- when those numbers will be bumped up to the required boots on the ground, required number?
ROBERTSON: Well, the force commander on the ground, General Martin Luther Agwai hopes to have the majority of his troops by the end of the year, but that is still completely uncertain. General Agwai won't bring those troops in until their equipment is in place. Well, that equipment cannot be moved into place until after the rainy season, so it's perhaps October before they -- before that equipment can be put in place. So it's still a long way off at this stage.
SESAY: Tensions are flaring not just in Darfur, but also in the south, in Abiye, that town on the border between the north and the south. What exactly is the source of conflict there, Nic, and why we've seen tensions flare up in recent months?
ROBERTSON: Well, in many ways this is the conflict between the north and the south of Sudan. It's by far the bigger conflict, and the conflict in Darfur sort of grew out as the result at the end of that.
The north-south civil war lasted 18 years, and was brought to a comprehensive peace agreement several years ago. The fighting only ended around 2002. But what we've seen since is some of the key leaders now begin to see that their best way forward is perhaps going back to a military footing rather than negotiating through their differences.
SESAY: What is the sense of the people of this town? We've seen mass displacements. What's the situation on the ground, what are we hearing?
ROBERTSON: Well, there was a huge displacement of people several weeks ago. More than 50,000, according to the U.N. They see this as a very, very serious development that perhaps is an indicator that the tensions have risen to such a situation that conflict between the north and south of Sudan could restart, and this could just be the tip of the iceberg.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: And you can see much of Nic's reporting on the Darfur crisis. He'll host a special on July 5th right here on CNN.
Sudanese hip-hop star Emmanuel Jal has lived through horrors most people can't even imagine. Up next, Jal discusses how he turned his painful past as a child soldier into a musical mission.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Making business news in Africa this week. Mobile service provider Safaricom made a soaring debut at the Nairobi Stock Exchange. Kenyan President Mwai Kibaki was on hand to officially open public trading of the company. In just an hour and a half, the price of Safaricom shares jumped 45 percent, making it East Africa's biggest ever initial public offering.
South Africa's ruling party President Jacob Zuma wrapped up his first official tour of India after meeting with Indian political and business leaders. Zuma and Indian Congress president Sonya Gandhi discussed strengthening economic and political ties between the two countries and signed a memorandum of understanding.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Welcome back. You're watching INSIDE AFRICA.
Hip-hop star Emmanuel Jal is a subject of a critically acclaimed documentary making the rounds of the film festival circuit. "Emmanuel Jal, War Child" now playing at the festival tells the story of Jal's story from child soldier caught up in Sudan's two-decade civil war. The hip hop star has a positive message. I spoke to Jal about the film, his new album, his country and his (inaudible).
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EMMANUEL JAL, HIP HOP ARTIST: There was constant attacks of the villages from the -- by the militias, and people, and me and my family (inaudible). So when I ....
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
Later we were trained in discipline and we ended up becoming child soldiers. And so, I was trained when I was around eight or nine years old.
SESAY: How did being a child soldier impact you?
JAL: The effect of what I'm facing now, because now this is when I'm not at war, so this is when I go to sleep, I have the dreams. (INAUDIBLE) cut the head with a machete, or I'm cutting somebody, or I try to fire a gun (inaudible) and someone wants to capture me. And also, sleeplessness.
But at the moment, like with the music that I do, so it's kind of like helping my process to come together and be all right.
SESAY: What is that like, to see your story and to hear those details, those harrowing details of your life, what is that like to see them up on the screen and to have so many people right around the world ultimately be able to see that?
JAL: It was depressing, you know. I saw houses burned, I've seen people dying. And for all the traumas and everything that I've gone through, I've put my (inaudible) music (inaudible).
Some places they ask, you know, have you killed, how was it? So some places are like this, wherever I go. But when I sit down and I look at what the story does to people and how people's minds are opened, I say, look, I've lost my childhood here, and I'll never make it back. Now I'm an adult. So if I live and keep quiet with the experience that I have and what is happening in my country, it won't change anything. So I am sort of like, let me just use my story to make a difference, and I like (ph) the situation of what happened.
SESAY: Has the United Nations, in your opinion, has it done enough to help the people of Sudan?
JAL: The international community, I don't think the laws they made it out to protect black people. For example, Rwanda happened, no one went. So let's say if Rwanda -- if something like that is happening in France, the United Nations will go quickly and solve this situation.
Now we see -- we have the evidence, who else would deserve more freedom like the people of Sudan. For 21 years, we've seen them starving on TV. We're seeing -- that's the evidence of what is happening in Sudan like. They practice in Darfur now the same tactics that were already used in south Sudan by the government. So I feel like the United Nations are not doing anything.
SESAY: The Olympics are coming up in August. There are those who say that the opening ceremony should be boycotted because of China's continued support of the government of Khartoum. What's your view on that?
JAL: My view was, at least to put pressure on China. You know, even the Chinese public don't even know that their country is killing normal people, so by sucking the oil from Sudan. So, our suggesting that there are some brave athletes who would just pull out, pull and say I'm not going. And you see the evidence (ph), you see it on TV. So if you an athlete and you're going to run for it, or you're going to compete, and you're a boxer, you're participating in genocide.
SESAY: How optimistic are you about the prospects for peace in Sudan in the near future?
JAL: I'm afraid that war could break anytime soon. That's what I think, but my prays and hope that they keep the peace.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Jal is working on a book about his life. He says it will be out next February.
Human Rights Watch says Zimbabwe's ruling party is behind a campaign of violence and intimidation against the opposition. After a short break, we'll go over the group's latest findings and hear the government's response.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Welcome back to INSIDE AFRICA. Zimbabwe's presidential runoff election is less than two weeks away, and as the day draws closer, opposition leaders continue to rack up time in detention.
The Movement for Democratic Change Party says Zimbabwean authorities detained its leader, Morgan Tsvangirai, multiple times for the second week in a row. Voters are due to choose between Tsvangirai and President Robert Mugabe a week from Friday. MDC Secretary-General Tendai Biti was also arrested.
Human Rights Watch has issued a scathing report on Zimbabwe entitled "Bullets for Each of You: State-Sponsored Violence in Zimbabwe's March 29th Election." It accuses the Mugabe government of using food aid and violence to intimidate opposition supporters. I went over the specifics of the report with its author, Tiseke Kasambala.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TISEKE KASAMBALA, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Our main findings indicate that the army, the police working with youth militia, war veterans and ZANU-PF supporters, are behind incidents of beatings, killings and torture of MDC activists and those people who voted for MDC. And this violence has been widespread and been taking place since March, 29th.
SESAY: How did you come to that conclusion? Give me a sense of the scale of the investigation that Human Rights Watch undertook?
KASAMBALA: We visited all the 10 provinces of Zimbabwe. In addition to that, we spoke to over 70 victims and witnesses to the violence, who gave us their testimonies and told us about the perpetrators and how they had been attacked in their own homes, taken to torture camps, beaten at reeducation meetings. A whole list of horrifying abuses.
SESAY: The Zimbabwean government has repeatedly dismissed such accusations, such claims. They've in fact gone the other way and said that the opposition party, the Movement for Democratic Change, MDC, has perpetrated some of the violence that's taking place in Zimbabwe. Do you see -- do you hear any evidence of this?
KASAMBALA: (AUDIO GAP).
So the government statement is just an attempt to hide their own complicity in the serious crimes that have been taking place since the March 29 elections.
We believe that (inaudible) of oppression and violence, the (inaudible) on June 27th. However, it looks like this election is going to move ahead. So in the weeks remaining, there have to be some dramatic improvements in condition on the ground. First of all, an end to the violence. Secondly, a resumption of operations by humanitarian organizations who have been prevented by the government from carrying out the operations throughout the rural areas.
And this pressure must come from African leaders. We believe that African leaders should be saying that Robert Mugabe and his government should recognize if they influence the election under the current conditions, and that such an election outcome would not be endorsed. That is the kind of hard-line diplomacy that we are talking about. We're not talking about the softly, softly approach which President Thabo Mbeki has used to date, and which before has not borne any fruits, so to speak. In fact, people are suffering more, people are being put (inaudible).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: For the Zimbabwean government's response, I spoke by phone to Deputy Information Minister Bright Matonga. He called the report one- sided.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIGHT MATONGA, DEPUTY INFORMATION MINISTER: The government does not condone or tolerate any form of violence. We're fighting violence. We're fighting the causes of violence. We're fighting these causes of violence. And our approach is zero tolerance on violence. It does not matter where (ph) they've just been -- ZANU-PF (inaudible) are not going to talk about the figures. (inaudible) MDC. One death is too many.
SESAY: Are you saying ...
MATONGA: And we do not allow (inaudible) any form of violence. Election process is about electing leaders. We don't want our people when it comes to election time to get afraid of choosing their own leader.
SESAY: Let me, Mr. Deputy Minister, you're saying that there is not widespread campaign of violence taking place right now in Zimbabwe in the runup to this election. Is that what you're saying?
MATONGA: What I can tell you is that the American government set aside $6 million U.S. dollars for (inaudible) Zimbabwe, and the British government in return (AUDIO/VIDEO GAP).
in our capacity to make sure that we ...
SESAY: So that money is going to -- who're you alleging that money is going to, and who is perpetration this violence? Who are you saying is responsible for this violence?
(CROSSTALK)
MATONGA: ... organizations through the MDC, through the use of the one they call the Democratic Resistance Committees that are going around committing violence. For information, about 10 ZANU-PF war veterans were killed -- abducted and killed by suspected MDC thugs (inaudible). This is an ongoing process.
But what I cannot do, as the government, is to blame -- to say that MDC is doing more than (inaudible). Violence is violence, and we can -- we should have a zero tolerance on violence, a zero tolerance on the cause of violence.
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: Next week for the brand-new edition of INSIDE AFRICA. Thanks for watching.
END
