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Nancy Grace
Groom Charged in Australian Honeymoon Scuba Death
Aired June 23, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: After a dream wedding, a romantic honeymoon featuring a couple`s dive trip turns deadly. There in the clear blue waters far below the surface, the blushing bride sinks to the ocean floor while the brand-new groom makes it to the top to breathe in the fresh air, and then home to collect what he believes to be a big, fat insurance check.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-six-year-old Tina Watson was on her honeymoon when police allege she was killed by her new husband. Eleven days after what Tina`s friends called her dream wedding, Tina drowned during a scuba diving trip in the Great Barrier Reef. After an intense investigation and a coroner`s inquest, attorneys for Tina`s husband, David Gabe Watson, says he has been formally charged with murder. Police allege that during the scuba dive, Watson turned off Tina`s air supply, locked her in a bear hug until she was dead or dying, then turned the air back on, letting his new wife sink to the bottom of the ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It came to a shocking end. This photo taken by another diver shows Tina slumped on the seabed. Husband Gabe had already surfaced, he says to raise the alarm. But always the nagging question. He was a qualified rescue diver. Why didn`t he swim to his wife`s aid?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over a period of time, the police began letting me know that they were investigating a suspicious death, initially had been what appeared to be an accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: A little 7-year-old and 3-year-old brother and sister vanish just yards from their own home in a quiet, upscale and close- knit Houston suburb. After a desperate search for the tiny tots, tragedy, their burned remains found hidden in a heavily wooden area only five miles away. Tonight, prime suspect straps in, then at the last second, wrangles himself out of a polygraph. Who? Their own father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Randy and three-year-old sister Denim always loved to play in their apartment complex. But on Father`s Day, while just 20 yards away from their home, they disappeared, intense searches by air, land and water coming up empty. Then a possible break in the case. Police say father Randy Sylvester became the sole suspect after he allegedly told the kids` mom that her children were dead and she needed to move on, Sylvester allegedly leading police to the badly burned bodies of his kids, 7-year-old Randy and 3-year-old Denim.
But Sylvester reportedly claims he didn`t do it and the slayings happened because he owed other people money. Now breaking news. The kids` own father, Randy Sylvester, officially charged with two counts of murder, Sylvester in the Harris County jail, where he sits with no bond. If convicted, he faces the death penalty by lethal injection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: A romantic honeymoon featuring a couple`s dive trip turns deadly. There out in the clear blue waters far below the surface, the bride sinks straight to the bottom of the ocean floor while the groom makes it to the top to breathe in the fresh air, and then straight home to collect home what he believes will be a big, fat insurance check.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man charged with killing his bride during a honeymoon scuba dive. They were married only 11 days before she drowned. A coroner says there was no -- no -- equipment failure, no medical cause of death. Gabe Watson is accused of turning off her air and then flipping it back on before she sank.
A warrant was put out for Gabe Watson`s arrest and extradition. The wife, 26-year-old Tina, novice diver. She hadn`t done this kind of thing before. And her autopsy reveals no medical cause of death. In other words, it wasn`t a heart condition or something like that. They also looked at her diving equipment. It was fine, not faulty.
Take a look at this picture. It is completely chilling. You can see the final moments there, taken by another member of the diving expedition. Obviously, that`s her highlighted on the right-hand side of your screen. The witness says that the newlyweds were locked in some sort of embrace at the depth of 49 feet. That was right before he headed up to the surface and she sank to the ocean floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the investigation and motive has been centered around money, to some extent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His story of what happened that day changed 16 times. That bothered the coroner. So did the possibility money was a motive. The inquest heard claims, before the wedding, Gabe told Tina to increase her life insurance policy and make him the sole beneficiary. It`s alleged he only found out she hadn`t after her death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gabe Watson`s attorney has told the media that he feels his client has not been given the presumption of innocence. In his statement, to "The Sydney Morning Herald," he says, quote, "One is left with an uneasy feeling in this case that the police at some point determined that Gabe was guilty of murder and have endeavored to construct a case to that end."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Incredible story. Straight out to Jim Faherty with WERC radio. Jim, what happened?
JIM FAHERTY, WERC RADIO: Well, Nancy, this all started back in October of 2003. Tina and Gabe Watson were married here in Alabama and went to Australia to celebrate their honeymoon. Just 11 days after they tied the knot, Tina Watson and her new husband, Gabe, went on a scuba dive to explore a shipwreck along Australia`s Great Barrier Reef. Then something went terribly wrong and 26-year-old Tina Watson lost her life in the crystal waters off Australia, Gabe Watson telling authorities his bride drowned, that it was a catastrophic accident, a tragedy. But now nearly five years later, Gabe Watson stands accused of murder.
GRACE: You know -- Jim Faherty joining us at WERC radio. Jim, how many times did he actually change his story?
FAHERTY: Well, multiple times, Nancy. In fact, that is part of what took so long to get him charged. This was a complex investigation. The stories changed multiple times. And that is part of why it took so long to get us to where we are today. Gabe Watson gave conflicting stories to the authorities in Australia, that the current swept his bride away, that she sank too quickly, that ear problems stopped him from going after her. And they had to go through all of these stories and check them out, and eventually, they began seeing inconsistencies.
GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding. You`ve given me several inconsistencies in just 30 seconds.
Joining us right now is a special guest joining us from Brisbane, Australia, Alison Fletcher with Channel 9 Network. Alison, welcome. What took so long to charge this guy?
ALISON FLETCHER, CHANNEL 9 NETWORK: Well, indeed, it`s just as you`ve been hearing then. I mean, the investigations, the senior investigators took about four-and-a-half years. Now, that is because there were about 16 different versions of events that Gabe gave the police. Now, they changed from Tina panicked to he couldn`t help her and wanted to get to the surface and find help, basically, so many inconsistencies over such a long period of time that the police really wanted to build a strong case against Gabe. So they did thoroughly follow through each of those leads.
But in the end, the coroner said, when he handed down his findings last Friday in Australia, that the investigation was the most complete and detailed a picture that he`d ever seen in his role as coroner. So it`s been well worth it.
GRACE: Question. Alison Fletcher joining us from Brisbane, Australia. Alison, you stated he gave 16 different versions. What were they?
FLETCHER: Well, all 16 haven`t actually been revealed to me, so I can`t detail each one of those. But basically, some of them were that Tina panicked or that they decided to swim against the current, that she got into difficulties down there, that Gabe got into difficulties, that he couldn`t bring her to the surface, that he then took his time getting to the surface. Basically, there were just -- it appears that he almost got confused in those final moments as to what he wanted his apparent story to be. And police really weren`t sure what his evidence was going to be.
Now, he declined to give evidence in the inquest. He had the opportunity to take the stand and testify, but he claimed privilege so the court didn`t hear directly from Gabe. Everything came just from those police investigators.
GRACE: Alison, he stated that he had difficulty below. What was the scuba diving difficulty that he claims to have had?
FLETCHER: Well, that`s really hard to know, seeing Gabe himself was a qualified rescue diver. Now, he had at least 50 dives under his belt. Tina was a novice. She`d only been down a few times and apparently had been a little skeptical about going on this dive trip. But apparently, the current became quite strong down there. Gabe said that Tina started panicking and flailing about.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait! Wait, Alison, wait, because we`re showing our viewers right now a picture of her lifeless body there at the bottom of the ocean. Now, the reason we have this photo is that another couple on this trip were taking underwater photos. I`ve done it a hundred times. So there wasn`t any big, strong current. That is total BS because there she is right there, right with the rest of the dive group. A current has not taken her far away. She`s right there. I`m looking right at her photo in the background of another couple`s picture. So that -- what he said about a strong current taking her away is simply not true.
FLETCHER: Exactly. And I guess that`s what the police have gathered from their investigations. And the person that took that photo -- there was witnesses in that dive group who say they saw Gabe giving Tina a bear hug or holding her under water for about 30 seconds before her limpless body -- limp, lifeless body then sunk to the bottom of the ocean. Now, police reenacted that bear hug under water, and they have said that there could have been time in that 30 seconds for Gabe to have switched the oxygen off. So that is the suggestion or the theory that was put forward by the prosecution in the inquest.
GRACE: We`ll be right back with Jim Faherty and Alison Fletcher, everyone. It was a dream wedding, the wedding she had always imagined she would have, then this luxurious honeymoon trip. They go diving, a couples dive trip. She sinks to the bottom of the ocean. He makes it miraculously to the top.
Joining me right now is a certified scuba instructor. He is an expert witness in hundreds of cases. Steve Bielinda is joining us. Steve, bottom line, if she had been having a problem breathing, they did not have to do the elaborate thing you see on James Bond movies, where you take a breath, then they take a breath and you slowly go up. No. He could have just BC`d her -- you know, pushed the button on her buoyancy control vest -- and she`d shoot to the top. She wasn`t going to get the bends 50 feet down.
STEVE BIELINDA, EXPERT WITNESS, SCUBA INSTRUCTOR: That`s correct. All`s he had to do is to press a power inflator and he would have brought both of them right up to the surface.
GRACE: Show.
BIELINDA: Here`s the power inflator right here. Here`s the button right here, this button that I`m pushing my finger on. That`s a power inflator. And here`s the hose that goes to his tank. And the only way this wouldn`t work is if the valve was turned off if there was no air in the tank or he had shut the valve off.
GRACE: And the thing, everybody, that -- what Steve Bielinda is showing you is attached to the tank. And you know, Steve, when I dive, I carry my -- I carry that, my BC, everything right here. Or a lot of people actually attach it to their chest. And you just -- and you go up, if you must, if you`re in that much of a dilemma. That`s all he had to do.
BIELINDA: That`s right. This comes right over your left shoulder and hangs right here, just like that. And you would just grab it with your hands. If she was in a problem, she would have done it herself. She would have brought it up.
GRACE: You know, It`s really interesting. I recall maybe the first year or two I was diving, just out of nervous habit, I would always keep one hand right there on the BC, the buoyancy control. And that`s really all she had to do.
Now, what`s interesting -- Jim Faherty, back to you, with WERC. Didn`t, at one juncture, people believe or opine that he had actually turned the -- in that bear hug -- bear hug, he had turned off the oxygen valve at the tank?
FAHERTY: Absolutely, Nancy, that he had done that, he had shut off his bride`s air supply until she was either dead or near dead, according to the authorities in Australia, and only then did he go for help. And in fact, this is where we get into another inconsistency. Gabe Watson told the police that he rocketed to the top of the surface to raise the alarm, but someone who was there on the scene said he didn`t go up to the surface fast at all, that he rose very gradually and in a very controlled fashion through the water.
GRACE: And you know what, Jim? It`s my understanding from reading -- everybody, you`re actually seeing a reenactment that we are showing you, about how police believe that this young American girl was murdered at the bottom of the ocean. Her brand-new husband, after a dream wedding, allegedly bear-hugs her, turns off the oxygen valve to her tank. She sinks down, as one witness says, as if she were Christ on the crucifix, her arms straight out beside her, while he goes up.
Jim, my point -- according to his dive computer, it says it took three minutes for him to get up.
FAHERTY: Well, absolutely. And you know, once again, we can`t, you know, stress enough that Gabe Watson was also a certified rescue diver. His new wife, Tina, was a novice. She was, you know, by all accounts, a petite woman, considerably smaller than Gabe Watson, who was a former football player in high school. And I think it -- you know, you start to strain credulity when you listen to his story, where he says that he could not possibly get her to the surface because she was just too much for him.
GRACE: Absolutely not! Because underwater everyone -- you can take someone that weighs two or three times your weight. You can bring them up to the surface.
Very quickly, back to Steve Bielinda, certified scuba instructor joining us in our Manhattan studios. Steve, the reality is a certified instructor has hours and hours under water. They know what to do.
BIELINDA: Correct. The first thing he would have done is reach for her inflator. If she didn`t need an air supply, which she would have indicated that she was out of air and asked for an octopus regulator, such as this, right? If she wasn`t out of air, asking for that, that meant she had air and she was breathing. So she would have went right for the power inflator.
GRACE: Exactly. Now, the...
BIELINDA: And pressed that.
GRACE: ... octopus, everyone, is like -- you have a breathing apparatus on your nose and mouth. An octopus is floating free, and it is another breathing apparatus in case your main breathing apparatus has a problem. You grab your octopus and breathe out of it. And you know, many times under water, even as a beginner, I`ve breathed double with a partner to go up, just as a practice scenario, Steve. It`s not difficult at all.
BIELINDA: That`s correct. It`s not.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. With us, Steve Bielinda, to show us the latest. Also with us tonight, Sergeant Brad Flynn. He is the lead investigator in the Helena Police Department.
Out to the lines. Jasmine in Mississippi. Hi, Jasmine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. You know, that wedding might have been a dream, but that picture is a nightmare.
GRACE: Can you believe the photo of the girl at the bottom of the ocean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just kills me. But we saw a report a few weeks ago where he said he had had problems with his dive monitor, went to the surface and found out the batteries were in backwards. Has he said anything about why were the batteries in backwards?
GRACE: Frankly, I don`t think a dive monitor problem would have kept him from saving her life, but we`ll go to the expert when we get back, Jasmine. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually had a diver that was on the Spoilsport with them that came to see me, and he asked me to relay the story that I was told. And after I relayed what I was told to him, he told me that that didn`t happen and started telling me all the reasons why it didn`t happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A coroner has decided to formally charge David Gabe Watson in the death of his new wife, who died just days after the couple`s wedding. Tina Watson and her husband were scuba diving during their honeymoon when their dive instructor found Tina at the bottom of the ocean. An autopsy determined the cause of death to be drowning. An investigation began into what caused the death of the 26-year-old former model. While Watson denies any wrongdoing, police allege Watson`s possible motive was money after learning that Watson had asked Tina to maximize her life insurance policy and name him as the sole beneficiary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Very quickly, to Alison Fletcher, joining us from Brisbane, Australia. Explain to me, what am I seeing in this reenactment?
FLETCHER: Well, basically, the police had to provide evidence of what could have happened under water. So they set up a situation where they had two police divers go down, reenact what the evidence suggested may have happened, and determine whether it would have been possible for Gabe Watson to turn off his new bride`s oxygen supply in that time. So the suggestion was that he held her for about 30 seconds under water at a depth of around 15 meters or so.
So police filmed this. They went through this rigorous process. And that`s what you`re seeing in that police video. So basically, they testified and gave evidence in the inquest that it would have been possible for someone to reach around and perhaps turn off Tina`s valve, for her then to not have access to that and basically to have no choice but to sink and fall to the bottom -- sink to the bottom of the ocean, and in effect, at the hands, allegedly, of her loved one.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. And let`s answer Jasmine from Mississippi`s question. To Steve Bielinda, certified scuba instructor joining us in our Manhattan studios. Steve, bottom line, your scuba computer, which is right there in your hand usually, shows you your depth, how long you`ve been under, the time. It can show a few more things. But to Steve Bielinda, even if his computer had not been working, that would not have stopped him from helping her.
BIELINDA: His air supply wasn`t stopped working, so he could just do whatever he wants. The computer had nothing to do with his assisting her. So he was breathing, so he would have been able to assist her.
One of these valves, when you turn the valve on and off -- as the reporter reported, there`s only two turns to the whole valve. I don`t know if you can look at it.
GRACE: We can, yes.
BIELINDA: How about I bring it down. This valve right here, right here -- it only takes two turns to turn it off. That`s how -- it`s on, it`s off. That`s it. Very simple. It`s a fast-moving valve.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We hang together. We stay strong in family, in God, in prayer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, lots of that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lots of that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lots of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just one step closer...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One step closer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to getting justice and peace for Tina, and that`s the most important thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what we want, is justice for our daughter and peace. And until this is done and until he is charged and in jail, she will not have it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Sergeant Brad Flynn, lead investigator in the Helena Police Department. What do we know about their dating history? How long had they been together before they tied the knot, Sergeant?
SGT. BRAD FLYNN, HELENA POLICE DEPARTMENT: They had dated a little over two years.
GRACE: Now, tell me about how the insurance policy finally worked out after her death.
FLYNN: She -- the beneficiary was not changed. The beneficiary remained to Tina`s father, and he did collect that money. As a matter of fact, that`s what was used to help pay for funeral expenses.
GRACE: Did the groom ever sue over the insurance benefits?
FLYNN: Yes, Nancy, he did. He filed a separate lawsuit against the travel -insurance policy that he had taken out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 2 1/2 years after it happened, we made a trip to Australia, which was our second trip, really, to try to get some movement in the investigation, because 2 1/2 years, I was beginning to get worried that people`s memories fade, people get misplaced, especially when you look at the fact that there were three boats at the site where it happened and I believe in excess of 100 people, crew members and passengers amongst those three boats.
And I knew that the police had a really unbelievable task ahead of them in locating all of those witnesses, obtaining witness statements, and following through on the things necessary to complete the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: After a dream wedding, the bride sinks to the bottom of the ocean during a couples dive excursion. The groom makes it to the top coming home to what he believes will be a big, fat insurance check.
We`re taking your calls live. To Beverly in New York -- hi, Beverly.
BEVERLY, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
BEVERLY: You look great and your children are beautiful.
GRACE: Thank you. Can you believe they`re almost eight months?
BEVERLY: No, I can`t.
GRACE: July 4th they`ll be eight months. Of course, they were very premature, but eight months. And one is 22 pounds and one is 18 pounds since you didn`t ask.
OK. What`s your question?
BEVERLY: My question is, in Australia, if he is found guilty, what kind of a sentence could he get?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Alison Fletcher, joining us from Brisbane, Australia, what is the maximum he can get in Australia?
ALISON FLETCHER, CHANNEL 9 NETWORK: Well, Nancy, the maximum -- maximum in Australia for a murder charge is life imprisonment. It all depends on whether he`s given parole or early release from that sentence in the years to come. But automatically if he`s found guilty of murder, it is a life sentence.
GRACE: So you guys don`t have the death penalty?
FLETCHER: No, we don`t have the death penalty over here. We just have our automatic life imprisonment in one of Queensland`s jails. So I guess it depend on what happens with that extradition process, but no death penalty in Australia.
GRACE: Now if they get life with parole, about how long would they serve?
FLETCHER: Well, it changes case by case, Nancy. But you wouldn`t see anyone getting out before, say, 10 years. But some people do serve that whole life imprisonment and a no parole issue is ordered. So it depends on what is issued.
But there are cases where people do get out earlier. I guess it all depends on what the judge finds in this particular case should Gabe be found guilty of murder.
GRACE: Now, and very quickly, Alison Fletcher, joining us from Brisbane, Australia -- Alison, do you have the jury system like Great Britain?
FLETCHER: Well, the way our jury system works is we have a panel of - - 12 jurors that are selected from the public. The prosecution and defense both get chances to object to different jurors as their numbers are called up.
They`re just members of the public who are picked in a random ballot drawer as you would say. They have to appear in that court for whatever period of time the trial goes for.
Now they`re not locked away each night unless there`s a specific order for that to be so. They`re just ordered not to communicate with anyone else about the trial. Then, of course, once the trial wraps up and they have to make their decision, then they get locked away and then they basically stay together until they`ve made up their mind.
GRACE: Alison, that`s incredibly like our system here in the U.S. We also mimic the Great Britain system from our common law.
We`re taking your calls live. Let`s go straight out to our caller from Louisiana.
Who is it, Liz? Shane in Louisiana. Hi, Shane.
SHANE, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. First I want to know let you know how much I love you and I appreciate all you do.
GRACE: Thank you very much and hello to all of our Cajun friends.
What`s your question, dear?
SHANE: Now my question is: who is the last known person to have communications with Tina besides her husband? And I was wondering if maybe she gave signs to that person that things were not going well on the honeymoon that could have blown up to a murder.
GRACE: Excellent question, Shane.
To you, Sergeant Brad Flynn, what do we know?
SGT. BRADY FLYNN, LEAD INVESTIGATOR, HELENA POLICE DEPT.: We do know that she did contact her parents right before they left. At the time, her parents said that they appeared to be having a good time. No signs that anything was wrong.
GRACE: And was it a certified dive trip or did they just hire a local boat to take them out? Sergeant?
FLYNN: Oh, yes, it was a certified dive trip. It was on the Ss Spoil Sport, which was a dive cruise. They were going to spend over a week out visiting several dive sites along the reef.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us veteran trial lawyer out of San Francisco, John Burress. Also joining us out of Manhattan, Carmen St. George.
John Burress, I got a problem with anybody who changes their story 16 times. Now granted, after you tell a story over and over, you may remember additional pieces of the story but to actually change your story, John?
JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know that given what I`ve seen that it`s totally changing on significant points on the same point. It may be there`re different variations that go along. But, obviously, it`s not good when you tell different stories.
The only thing you can really say that there are no admissions in it and that he, in fact, has not confessed and it wasn`t done under oath. I really think the government.
GRACE: You really think that`s going to help him, he didn`t do it under oath?
BURRESS: Well, that`s not the total point.
GRACE: That`s what you`re going to tell the jury? I can`t wait.
BURRESS: No, that`s not the total point. No, no, no, that`s not the total point. The real case here is a circumstantial evidence case and the reliability of this. This is really a speculation type case.
I mean you don`t have any direct evidence that he has committed a crime. What you have is the government going through and trying to reenact a particular event, which is circumstantial. And it may or may not be consistent with the total facts that you know.
So I don`t think he is out of the water here. I think he had a very good defense case because based upon disproving elements of a circumstantial evidence case. As you know, if one part of the chain doesn`t fit, then the rest of the case will fall apart.
Certainly looks bad on its face. But I think once you get into the lawyering aspect of it.
GRACE: Yes, it looks bad.
BURRESS: . you`re really going to be able to.
GRACE: You got that part right, John Burress.
BURRESS: On its face. That`s right. But I think the defense.
GRACE: What about it Carmen St. George?
BURRESS: . can so something with this case. A lot.
GRACE: Yes, like plead guilty.
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I got to tell you.
GRACE: Go ahead.
ST. GEORGE: No, there`s a lot more here, Nancy. There`s no evidence. If you take a look at the David Swain case which is happening in Rhode Island, there is evidence in that case. That was a husband accused now of murdering his wife nine years ago in Tortola.
In that case, there was a civil verdict for wrongful death. But you have evidence. There`s evidence of a struggle. There was a destruction of the BC equipment. There is a fin that was broken.
Here you have none of that, Nancy. And do you see the reenactment video? I mean, come on, you shut off the air?
GRACE: Well, let`s say.
ST. GEORGE: There`s going to be a struggle, Nancy. There`s nothing, none of that. Let`s have them prove this case.
GRACE: To Sergeant Brad Flynn, maybe I`m wrong, but isn`t there a witness who states that they observe the groom bear-hugging the bride, whereupon she sinks to the bottom and he slowly paddles his way up to the surface? Yes, no, sergeants?
FLYNN: Yes. There is a witness that corroborates that.
GRACE: OK.
To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author, weigh in.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "TILL DEATH DO US PART": Well, it sounds like this poor, innocent girl married a sociopath, a con man of sorts, who planned and plotted out this murder. He knew what he was doing. When you think about drowning, it`s a silent death. This girl didn`t have a chance.
GRACE: And I`ve got to tell you, Steve Bielinda, I don`t know if you`ve ever had trouble underwater --Steve Bielinda joining us, certified scuba instructor and expert witness all over the country -- but I have had difficulty and the sensation of being underwater when my breathing gear -- I couldn`t make it work. I couldn`t make my octopus work. And I had to make it to the top.
That is a very, very scary feeling. The worst thing you can do is panic. But as we were discussing earlier, I hit the buoyancy control and zoomed up to the top. So if you stay calm, it`s not -- it`s not the end.
What do you make of her going down to the bottom and him going to the top?
STEVE BIELINDA, EXPERT WITNESS, CERTIFIED SCUBA INSTRUCTOR: Well, what I make of it, from what I`ve read, is that when he bear-hugged her, he suppressed the BC. The overpressure valve dumped all the air out of it.
She wasn`t allowed to get at her air tank, her valve, because it was closed. He waited until she died then he cranked open the valve and then just let her drop down to the bottom.
GRACE: And to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author, what do you think, Pat?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, I think these aren`t the actions of a loving husband. What man would bear- hug his wife who hardly ever scuba dived, bear-hug her and terrify her under water, then watch his beloved sink to the bottom knowing full well that if he doesn`t rush right down to get her, she`s going to die.
He`s going to take his time to get up. It makes no sense. So I think that`s what`s going to have to be presented to the jury.
GRACE: Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author, is staying with us.
To Dr. Michael Bell, medical examiner out of Palm Beach, with a drowning of this nature, how can you determine if it`s accidental or homicide?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, you can`t with the autopsy. It will be dependent upon the circumstantial evidence.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hundreds of volunteers searching frantically for 7-year-old Randy and his 3-year-old sister Denim. The two went missing just 20 yards from their home.
Police say they only have one suspect. It`s Randy and Denim`s father, Randy Sylvester Sr. Police say Sylvester became the sole suspect after he allegedly told the kids` mom they were dead and she needed to move on.
Police say Sylvester agreed to take a polygraph. But after arriving at a police station, he refused. Sylvester taken into custody on charges of assault after allegedly attacking the kids` mom after they went missing.
Now breaking news. The kids` own father, Randy Sylvester, officially charged with two counts of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MOTHER: I want it to be a dream and I want to wake up and my kids are in their beds. That`s what I want. But we know it`s not going to happen. This is not a real moment for me right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: This according to police actually happened on Father`s Day.
Straight out to Kevin Charles, the Houston bureau chief with Metro Networks.
Kevin, what happened?
KEVIN CHARLES, HOUSTON BUREAU CHIEF, METRO NETWORKS: This has just been one of those stories, Nancy, that has gripped this whole city. It started like you said on Father`s Day as just a missing child report, two kids missing from a Pasadena apartment. It`s fairly commonplace, sad to say these days.
But the kids didn`t show up that night. They had hundreds of volunteers searching for them all week long. And as the week grew on we began to realize this was probably going to have a pretty tragic end.
And it came to that tragic end late Friday night, early Saturday morning, when the bodies of the two children, the 7- and 3-year-old, were found about six miles away from where they turned up missing.
And it`s just very, very sad situation especially that it started on Father`s Day and involves the father who is now charged with two counts of capital murder.
GRACE: In the last hours, that charge has been handed down. I`ve got in front of me the actual charges. Capital murder, two charges over these little children, a 3- and 7-year-old.
Out to a special guest joining us from Pasadena, Texas, Captain Bud Corbett. He`s the public information officer of the Pasadena Police Department.
Captain, thank you for being with us. Tell me, Captain, is it true that the suspect agreed to a polygraph and then at the last second bolted from the polygraph machine?
CAPT. BUD CORBETT, PIO, PASADENA POLICE DEPT.: Well, that`s fairly accurate. He didn`t actually bolt from the machine, but it`s true that initially he did agree to take a polygraph. And when it came down to physically hooking him up, he suddenly refused.
GRACE: Did he explain why?
CORBETT: No, he did not.
GRACE: Question, Captain Corbett, is it correct that the suspect actually led authorities to the burned bodies, the charred remains?
CORBETT: Yes, he did.
GRACE: What`s his story? He`s saying he didn`t do it. Then who did it?
CORBETT: Well, his explanation is really very erratic and he`s had -- he`s offered a number of conflicting, you know, accounts and information. And he really hasn`t offered any one viable explanation that we could follow up on.
GRACE: Did he say something, some muddled story, about he owed money to somebody and this was the meeting place where the bodies were found where he was supposed to pay it off?
CORBETT: He did mention that it may be in relation to a drug debt. But there really isn`t adequate information concerning that to conduct a viable follow-up since he gave conflicting information concerning it and he gave no details or information to qualify what he said.
GRACE: To John Burress and Carmen St. George -- let`s unleash the lawyers.
John Burress, sounds like somebody has been watching "Godfather" one time too many if you really believe the big, bad Colombian drug lord is going to kill your two children instead of you over the drug debt?
BURRESS: Well, I think this young man has talked too much already. There`s nothing he can say that`s going to get him out of this now. And so the first thing he needs to do now is get him a lawyer to advise him as to what his rights are. But he needs to stop talking.
Fortunately, the polygraph -- failure to take it cannot be used as evidence against him. But right now he cannot offer any explanation that will be acceptable. He needs to shut up and get him a lawyer and let the lawyer work through this case for him.
GRACE: To Carmen St. George -- well, you`re right about that, John Burress. To Carmen St. George, you know, they don`t have old Sparky anymore, just lethal injection. He`ll be doing very good, doing very well to dodge the DP.
ST. GEORGE: Well, Nancy, you know, I think I got to agree with John. I think one of the faults of our system here is that defendants know that they have a right against self-incrimination. They don`t have to say anything, but they want to. And that`s what really has gotten him in trouble here. He`s opened his mouth.
GRACE: Agreed.
ST. GEORGE: He said too much and we have to deal with it.
GRACE: I don`t know that that got him in trouble. I think the murders of the 3-year-old and the 7-year-old is what got him in trouble.
Out to Sharon in Ohio. Hi, Sharon.
SHARON, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on the babies.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
SHARON: Is he going to try this mental illness BS when it comes to this case?
GRACE: Beautifully put. I don`t know why lawyers and judges aren`t as blunt as you are, Sharon. What about it, Dr. Robi?
LUDWIG: I doubt it. I mean it doesn`t work. I would want to rule out.
GRACE: What choice does he have?
LUDWIG: I -- you know, that would be up to his lawyers. But I really would wonder if he has a drug problem and really lost it, if he was an abuser and just took it one step too far.
GRACE: So that might get him a little bit of a lesser system.
To Dr. Michael Bell, the bodies have been burned. Can we determine cause of death?
BELL: Certainly. Depending on how badly they`re burned, you can still see other injuries, including stab wounds, gunshot wounds or broken bones, bruises.
GRACE: To Albert in Kentucky. Hi, Albert.
ALBERT, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
ALBERT: Yes, I was wanting to know what actually made him want to take the police to where the children were?
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Captain Corbett?
CORBETT: Actually, I think that it was his relationship that he developed with Quanell X after the investigation was under way. And that Quanell X, a local activist, had an important part and powerful impact in the case and was directly instrumental in persuading the suspect to reveal the place where Denim and Randy Jr. were finally found.
GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live but right now as always, we salute our troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA HERNANDEZ, SALUTING THE TROOPS: This is Barbara Hernandez calling from Jacksonville, Florida. And I`d like to salute my husband, Staff Sergeant Gilbert J. Hernandez, who`s currently serving in Afghanistan with 1st Battalion 6th Marines.
Honey, on behalf of Nicholas, myself and all our family back home, we love you and we miss you very much and we are so proud of you and what you do. And every day we pray for the safe return of you and your Marines.
God bless you, honey. We love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER (on camera): Do you have any idea what happened to them?
(Voice over): We questioned their father, Randy Sr., who police call the lone suspect in the case.
RANDY SYLVESTER, FATHER: I feel like I want to fight all you all at one time. All you all strap up, you heard me?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Randy is being held on domestic violence and resisting arrest charges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Challenging the reporters to a fight, that`s not helping anything.
Out to the lines, Sharon in Washington. Hi, Sharon.
SHARON, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Love you, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you for watching.
SHARON: And I`m curious, would the ME be able to detect broken hyoid bones in the throat? Because I know they`re delicate.
GRACE: Excellent question, Sharon. What about it, Dr. Bell?
BELL: Well, at that age, I don`t they`d be broken. But certainly if the charring and burning hasn`t penetrated the neck tissues, you`ll still be able to recover those parts and be able to analyze them.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Robi Ludwig, we cover crime and justice issues every night. But the death, the murders of two children, that`s a whole different psyche.
LUDWIG: It really is. And it`s something that is so difficult for parents to get over because it defies logic. Really, our children are supposed to live beyond us. So this is just a horrible situation that nobody should have to live through, very sad.
GRACE: Take a look at these two children. Randy Sylvester Jr., age 7, Denim Sylvester, age 3.
Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Michael Manibog, 31, Alameda, California, killed, Iraq. Kind hearted, the life of the party, devoted to friends. Loved taking his son to Chuck E. Cheese, bowling, playing basketball, cooking, especially Filipino dishes. Leaves behind parents, three sisters, two brothers, 9-year-old slop son Terrel.
Michael Manibog, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
