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Campbell Brown
Obama Surges Ahead According to New Poll; Politics of Faith; What's Next for the Clintons?
Aired June 24, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everybody.
A poll just out a few hours ago putting John McCain in a deep, deep hole tonight. Take a look at the numbers. This is the new "L.A. Times"/Bloomberg poll that just came out. Barack Obama is ahead of McCain 49 to 37 percent. That is a 12-point lead.
And while that is a bigger lead than most polls show, it is worth remembering that double-digit leads in June don't necessarily mean much in November.
In 1988, Michael Dukakis had a double-digit lead in June and lost. Obama is still -- still has a ways to go. And he's got a new problem coming from the religious right, an influential evangelical leader now saying Obama is distorting the Bible. We're going to see what that means for the Obama campaign.
But issue number one is the economy, and once again the presidential candidates, along with just about everyone else, are focused on sky-high prices for gas, food and, well, just about everything. People are feeling it, and they are getting angry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): It's infuriating enough just to pull up to a gas pump.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you got to decide whether you want to buy a gallon of milk for your kids or a gallon of gas so you can get to work to feed your kids, it's not right.
BROWN: Eighty-three percent of Americans now feel the cost of gasoline is either a major problem or a crisis. But it's not only gas. Milk, meat, vegetables, everything at the grocery store costs more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Between our mortgage and the food prices and the gasoline, I real have nothing left for anything else.
BROWN: And whatever you're shopping for, it's delivered by truck. And truckers say the price of diesel is driving them out of business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every load we carry, we're losing money because of the cost of fuel. BROWN: This summer, there's no vacation from higher fuel prices. Commuter trains are crowded. The airlines haven't just raised ticket prices. They have started charging us $15 to $25 just to check our luggage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My pain is my pocket. I should be able to at least get on with one without having to pay. And that's ridiculous.
BROWN: Our lawmakers are just back from a long weekend. And guess what they discovered when they were back home?
SEN. MARIA CANTWELL (D), WASHINGTON: The American people are frustrated with the high cost of energy.
SEN. PETE DOMENICI (R), NEW MEXICO: And it is making us poor and poorer and poorer.
BROWN: But if you think drilling for more oil is the answer, the scientist who first warned us about global warming 20 years ago has a scary new message.
JAMES HANSEN, CLIMATE SCIENTIST: We really have reached a point of a planetary emergency. The things that we hear being said now by -- in Congress and the president, for that matter, to go drill for the last drop of oil on the Continental Shelf is exactly the wrong thing to do. In the process, it guarantees that we will pass the tipping point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Today, John McCain went to California to try a tricky two-step. He, again, called for offshore oil drilling, while at the same time saying we have got to do more for the environment and global warming.
As Dana Bash shows us, though, he had some high-profile help. He also had no shortage of critics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A joint appearance with Arnold Schwarzenegger and an environmental plug from California's green Republican governor.
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I have every confidence that, once Senator McCain is in the White House, America will get back to the game of having a sensible, consistent, and forward-looking energy policy.
BROWN: John McCain tried to live up to that by arguing federal buildings and cars should lead the way in fuel efficiency.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I propose to put the purchasing power of the United States government on the side of green technology. BASH: Outside the event, protesters decrying McCain's new position supporting offshore drilling as a way to ease gas prices, an unpopular move in California.
Schwarzenegger strongly opposes McCain on the issue. And an adviser told CNN that the governor planned to make that very clear today, but, instead, Schwarzenegger largely kept quiet. Still, McCain got an earful on offshore drilling from another invited guest.
MICHAEL FEENEY, LAND TRUST FOR SANTA BARBARA COUNTY: It would be 12, 15, maybe 20 years before those resources came online and got to full production. That's not going to impact the price of gasoline any time soon.
BASH: Later, McCain tried to clarify his position, saying states should decide whether to drill off their shores.
MCCAIN: I note with some interest that Governor Schwarzenegger, who I admire greatly, is opposed to exploration offshore. I note with some interest that the governor of Florida says that that's an idea that should be seriously considered.
Meanwhile, in neighboring Nevada...
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John McCain still doesn't get it.
BASH: ... Barack Obama seized on something McCain said yesterday. McCain was asked just how long it would take before offshore drilling actually started to lower gas prices.
MCCAIN: It may take some years. The fact that we are exploiting those reserves would have a psychological impact that I think is beneficial.
OBAMA: A psychological impact. In case you're wondering, in Washington speak, what that means is, it polls well.
BASH: Obama also mocked McCain's idea for a $300 million cash prize for inventing an alternative car battery.
OBAMA: When John F. Kennedy decided that we were going to go put a man on the moon, he didn't put a bounty out for some rocket scientist to win.
BASH: In response, McCain pressed a new campaign theme: Obama is Dr. No.
MCCAIN: He talks the talk, but has not walked the walk. And, on this energy issue, yes, it's easy to say no to everything. That's what Senator Obama is doing.
BASH (on camera): Obama has, of course, proposed several energy- related ideas, but McCain campaign aides tell us what angers voters most about high energy prices is inaction here in Washington and that Obama's constant criticism of McCain's ideas gives them an opening to paint Obama as part of the problem.
Dana Bash, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, ironically, it seems like only the candidates are getting good mileage out of high gas prices, but, practically speaking, oil supply and demand has been a looming problem for 30 years, and nobody has really had the political courage to do much about it.
We tonight have representatives from both campaigns joining us, in Arlington, Virginia, Nancy Pfotenhauer, a senior economic adviser for John McCain. And, in Berkeley, California, is Obama supporter and former Clinton administration Labor Secretary Robert Reich, whose latest book is called "Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everything Else (sic)."
Welcome to both of you.
And, Ms. Pfotenhauer, let me start with you.
I just want to play again, because it was a pretty striking comment that Senator McCain made about when people would see the benefits of offshore drilling. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: Even though it may take some years, the fact that we are exploiting those reserves would have a psychological impact that I think is beneficial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, psychological impact, I mean, is that what people really need right now? Is that what they want to hear?
NANCY PFOTENHAUER, MCCAIN CAMPAIGN POLICY ADVISER: Well, Campbell, you can't take it out of context.
We have -- Senator McCain has proposed a comprehensive plan that will give relief in the short term with a gas tax moratorium, will give near-term relief with energy exploration and development, and will give long-term relief through innovation.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, what do you mean by that? I don't think we were necessarily pulling that out of context. I just want clarification.
(CROSSTALK)
PFOTENHAUER: Yes, OK. It's one piece of a broad, comprehensive plan that will bring results, as opposed to Barack Obama.
Now, we have all been talking a lot about speculators and the role that speculators may have had in why oil prices are so high. You can't say speculators have contributed to the problem and then deny the fact that expectations and market expectations affect reality. That's what future markets do.
And, so, of course, future expectations affect prices in the near term very, very quickly, as I'm sure Secretary Reich would agree. And, so, it's a very important signal to send to the OPEC countries that have no interest in America doing well here and saying, we are no longer going to sit on our hands about supply constraints. We're going to do something about it.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right. Let me give him a chance to respond.
And, Secretary Reich, was Obama being fair in mocking this idea, because she does have a point? That is to a extent that's how the markets work. There is a psychological effect.
ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: Well, Campbell, the fact of the matter is that offshore drilling will not -- and the Energy Department admits this -- will not have an effect on the price or supplies of energy here in the United States for another 10 or 15 years.
But this is what Senator Obama wants to do. He wants to really reduce our dependence on oil entirely, invest in wind and solar and biomass, get away from our dependence on oil, and at the same time in the short term impose a windfall profits tax on the huge profits that oil companies get, and use some of that to help consumers here in the United States.
I mean, look, it is only logical. It is necessary. We have got to do this, not only with regard to getting rid of our dependence on oil, but also helping average people right now.
BROWN: Go ahead.
PFOTENHAUER: Well, the windfall profits tax was tried once, and it failed miserably. It punishes domestic production. And so it stalls and therefore it increases our reliance on foreign oil. And it punishes consumers because it increases prices.
Senator Obama truly is Dr. No in this arena. He has said no to gas tax relief, no to drilling, no to nuclear, no to batteries. The only thing he says yes to is increased taxes, increased windfall profit tax on oil, increase on coal, increase on natural gas, and, as I have said, a perfect storm of bad energy policy.
REICH: Campbell, If I can just respond very quickly.
BROWN: Go ahead.
REICH: I mean, first of all, investing in renewable alternative energy supplies is not saying no. It's saying yes. Senator McCain is the one who said no to all of this. And, besides Senator McCain's only immediate response to this crisis is to say, we're going to have a gas tax holiday. Well, that's not going to work. There's not a single economist in the United States who thinks that a gas tax holiday is anything but a gimmick.
BROWN: OK.
REICH: It's not going to work because supply is constrained. And if you give a gas tax holiday, people are going to travel more. And that means you're going to have more profits go to the oil companies. It's completely backwards.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Hold on. Hold on a second. I want to continue this conversation, but I want to ask you both about John McCain's new contest, his solve-our-oil-dependence challenge that comes with a $300 million prize. Is it real or is it pandering? We are going to talk about that when we come back.
Then, later Hillary and Bill Clinton, they both all but disappeared after she bowed out of the campaign. So, now what? We're going to look at how both may use their political clout. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, we're back talking gas prices and whether the candidates' energy plans will actually work.
And, as always, we are going to give you the facts so that you can decide for yourself. Well, yesterday, John McCain announced a contest with big prize to whomever develops a super-efficient battery- powered car. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I further propose we inspire the ingenuity and resolve of the American people by offering a $300 million prize for the development of a battery package that has the size, capacity, cost and power to leapfrog the commercially available plug-in hybrids or electric cars.
Today, Barack Obama fired back, basically calling the contest ridiculous.
OBAMA: When John F. Kennedy decided that we were going to go put a man on the moon, he didn't put a bounty out for some rocket scientist to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, back with me now, John McCain's senior economic adviser, Nancy Pfotenhauer, and Obama supporter and former Clinton administration Labor Secretary Robert Reich. Secretary Reich, let me ask you about this. Obama is not exactly in favor of this McCain contest. But let's be honest here. We are a country founded on innovation, on great ideas. So, why so dismissive?
REICH: I think a prize -- prizes are great, Campbell. The problem is that John McCain has voted against funding alternative energy, against wind, against solar, against biomass. He has been against three times bills to increase fuel economy in cars.
I mean, this feels like a gimmick. It's not on the scale that we need and what Obama is proposing to really get us off our dependence on oil.
BROWN: Ms. Pfotenhauer, I mean, on that, in that scope, it does sound gimmicky, in that context.
PFOTENHAUER: Well, it just reveals ignorance if it sounds gimmicky, because battery technology is a linchpin for securing our energy independence.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But it's the way -- but it's the incentive I guess in comparison to other methods for how you would go about it.
PFOTENHAUER: Well, first of all, I strongly disagree with Secretary Reich's characterization. It's not just plain not true.
In fact, Senator Obama has praised Senator McCain for his leadership on environmental issues, because he proposed the global climate change bill with Senator Lieberman. So, Senator Obama has praised Senator McCain's leadership when he wasn't running against him for president.
On to battery technology -- the future is not biofuels like ethanol, because that still requires oil. It's not hydrogen. It's not natural gas. We don't have the infrastructure.
BROWN: But the question isn't about battery technology. It's about holding a contest. I mean, why -- is that what it takes I guess to get people motivated to deal with the problem?
PFOTENHAUER: Well, it's certainly a lot more efficient than just pumping billions of dollars into the government infrastructure that has produced nothing.
Senator Obama's plan is a lot like Jimmy Carter's, where we spent billions of dollars and didn't get results, because government research does not require results in order to get money. In this plan, this idea says you have to achieve the objective, or you do not get the money.
(CROSSTALK)
REICH: If I may...
BROWN: All right, go ahead, Secretary Reich. Your last word.
REICH: Just very quickly, batteries are great, but batteries have to be plugged into something.
PFOTENHAUER: They do.
REICH: Where are we going to get the electricity from? That's why the Obama plan is so important.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right, guys, we have got to end it there.
Nancy, I know. I have got to stop you before I have to then let him respond again.
To Nancy and to Robert Reich, appreciate your time, both of you. Thanks so much.
PFOTENHAUER: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: We are going to switch topics now.
And in case you missed it, out of the blue today, a new attack on Barack Obama and his views on faith from a major figure on the religious right.
We will talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Here's what a lot of people are talking about today, the fiery comments tonight from one of the country's leading influential evangelical Christian leaders, James Dobson. He blasted Barack Obama, accusing him of -- quote -- "deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to justify his own world view."
And that's not all. He also says that Obama has a -- quote -- "fruitcake" view of the Constitution.
So, what's behind all this tough talk?
Tom Foreman has the facts right down the middle, so you can make up your own mind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Dobson, one of conservative Christianity's most influential voices, is taking aim at a speech made two years ago by Barack Obama at a conference of liberal Christians, in which Obama suggested it would be impractical to govern along biblical guidelines.
OBAMA: Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination, or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount, a passage that is so radical, that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application?
(APPLAUSE)
FOREMAN: Obama specifically named Dobson and said, "Folks haven't been reading their Bibles."
The response?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "FOCUS ON THE FAMILY")
DR. JAMES DOBSON, FOUNDER & CHAIRMAN, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: He says we ought to read the Bible. I think he ought to read the Bible. I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own world view, his own confused theology.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Dobson also took offense to Obama saying people who oppose abortion rights, for example, must learn to make their case in secular terms. Democracy demands it.
OBAMA: Because it requires that their proposals be subject to argument and amenable to reason.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "FOCUS ON THE FAMILY")
DOBSON: And if I can't get everyone to agree with me, it is undemocratic to try to pass legislation that I find offensive to the Scripture.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FOREMAN (on camera): Obama's campaign points out that this speech as a whole was not about limiting the role of religion. Instead, he spoke at length about how religious folks could be more effective if they learned to better communicate with those who have different beliefs.
(voice-over): Dobson also went after John McCain, criticizing him for not supporting more of the initiatives favored by conservative Christians. But the latest survey by the Pew Forum says most devoutly religious folks still lean Republican.
JOHN GREEN, PEW FORUM ON RELIGION AND PUBLIC LIFE: What Dr. Dobson appears to be doing is trying to draw a contrast between what Obama really believes and what he's been portraying in his campaign.
FOREMAN: If that strategy works, it could undermine Obama's efforts to bring more faith voters into the Democratic flock this fall.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: With me to talk about all this now, Tony Perkins, who is president of the Family Research Council and the author of "Personal Faith Public Policy," and our own Roland Martin, who is CNN political analyst and the author "Listening to the Spirit Within: 50 Perspectives on Faith."
So, guys, Tony, I'm going to start with you.
You know Dobson well. Why is he speaking out now? Why today about a speech that Obama made almost two years ago?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I think, Campbell, it's because, increasingly, there is a very overt effort by Barack Obama and his campaign to reach evangelicals.
I mean, he's really done a lot better job than Howard Dean did. I mean, he knows that Job is not a New Testament book. He speaks the language. He's communicating.
And what Dr. Dobson was saying in his program is that Christians, who are the target of Barack Obama's efforts to bring them into his campaign, have every right to determine whether or not he's another sheep in the church yard or if he's, you know, a wolf just wearing a sheep's -- a wool suit. They have every right to know that. And that's what they are saying. Let's dissect his theology.
BROWN: But is that -- in terms of the timing, that's essentially it, is that, all of a sudden, he's sort of become a threat or someone who may actually be connecting with evangelicals, so, therefore, it's time to put all the cards on the table?
PERKINS: Oh, I think there -- his language is very good in terms of -- Barack Obama -- in his ability to talk -- as a Democratic candidate, he's one of the first that has come along in a very long time that can use the faith talk, if you will, in such a way to connect with Christians.
But, when you look at his policies and what that faith really is, somewhere, there's a disconnect. Either it's a disconnect in his theology or it's the application of that faith. And Christians, again, who are being wooed by his campaign, have every right to look at that, dissect it, and try to figure out what his theology actually is.
BROWN: Go ahead.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Campbell, that's not why he's speaking out.
First of all, he just learned about this speech. I actually listened to the interview. He even said it. We just learned about it. That's why we're discussing it.
But here's what's interesting. I think we're doing the nation a disservice by calling James Dobson an evangelical leader. Out of his own mouth in the interview today, this is what he said. He said: "I am not a minister, a reverend or a theologian. I'm not an evangelist. I'm a child psychologist with a Ph.D. in child development."
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Roland, but come on.
MARTIN: Out of his own...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... his own mouth.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Whether you want him to be or not, he's an incredibly influential person among the evangelical community. You can't deny that.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: No. What he's done -- with Focus on the Family, what he's done is talk about family values.
But here's somebody who wants to have an evangelical or religious conversation who now wants to run away from the reality of religion. He said it out of his own mouth. That was not my interpretation.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, Tony.
PERKINS: The point is that you're absolutely right, Roland. He said that on the program. He is not a reverend, not a pastor. He's often referred to in the media as one. He makes very clear he's not.
What he is, is a leader who has been very involved in public policy as it relates to families. And when you talk about a faith, as Barack Obama did on Father's Day, he talked about -- gave a great speech on fatherhood from a pulpit of a church, saying that fatherhood doesn't end at conception. But where does life begin? He certainly in his policies does not embrace the fact that life begins at conception. So, there's a disconnect.
MARTIN: But, look, Dobson wants to be angry, Tony, over this whole issue in terms of some the points he made about as a politician.
Obama recognizes, there's a reality when the Bible and the Constitution are going to collide. And so, look, you can be a person of faith. You can certainly from a public policy standpoint advocate positions. But when you are in a position of authority as a political official, you're going to have a situation where constitutional issues are going to collide with your particular faith. And that's what he talked about consistently in that speech. PERKINS: What Dr. Dobson was saying and what Christians who understand that their faith does guide their arrival at public policy decisions -- yes, it's not in contrast with the Constitution. It's very much in keeping with the Constitution.
MARTIN: Tony, but the speech wasn't just about Christianity.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: But this is -- the point is that he is speaking to, has been increasingly speaking to evangelicals, conservative Christians, who are accustomed to politicians who talk about their faith as a means...
MARTIN: Right. No. He's talking to Christians, Tony. He's talking to Christians.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You want to make it just a conservative thing.
BROWN: All right.
PERKINS: ... as a means of arriving at their policy decisions. And Dr. Dobson was pointing out, there's a disconnect there.
BROWN: All right. Hold it there, guys. We have got a lot more on this conversation. We want to talk more when we come back about whether Obama is actually making inroads with evangelicals. That's when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with more on James Dobson's blast today of Barack Obama.
And our CNN/Opinion Research poll shows that, among white evangelical voters -- look at this -- John McCain leading Obama 64 to 30 percent. And, in 2004, Democratic nominee John Kerry got only 21 percent of the white evangelical vote.
So, back with me now to talk about this again, Tony Perkins and Roland Martin.
And Tony, you touched on this in our previous conversation a little bit, but Obama clearly is gaining ground. And John McCain doesn't seem to be making a connection, despite what Reverend Dobson is saying today and the other -- excuse me -- not a reverend, but despite what Dr. Dobson said today and other things we have been hearing.
What is the problem? Why is this such a struggle for John McCain still?
PERKINS: Well, I think John McCain is not comfortable talking about faith and its application to public policy. And Barack Obama clearly is.
And he's been, you know, talking about it very, very effectively, I think, and wooing in some Christians. And, again, the idea here is that, what does that mean? What does that mean in the end in terms of his public policy?
MARTIN: Campbell, what Obama is trying to do is not cede ground.
If you look at Republicans, when it comes to African-Americans, they pretty much say, we're not going to get them. We make no effort.
Obama is not going to get 50 percent of white evangelicals. But if he can go from 21 percent to 30 percent or 35 percent, that's a part of the coalition-building to win in November. That's what he's trying to do by saying, look, I'm not afraid to talk about faith on the issues, where I stand.
PERKINS: And I think that's great. I mean, I think competition for the vote of the faithful is good. But, in that process, we have every right to ask the question.
MARTIN: Of course.
PERKINS: What is that faith and where does it lead to in terms of his public policy?
MARTIN: But it's not just two issues, Tony, and that's what the real issue is.
PERKINS: No. You're absolutely right. There are a multitude of issues and we need to know where he stands on those issues, and what that faith really means to him. And is it an orthodox faith?
MARTIN: And McCain.
PERKINS: You're absolutely correct.
BROWN: Well, that's a fair question there, Tony. I mean, should McCain be talking, you know, if he's not connecting with evangelicals, at least talking about the issues more that are important here?
PERKINS: He absolutely should, and I think he fails to do so at his own demise. I think that Barack Obama has an opening to go after Christian --
BROWN: So why isn't he? Why is he -- why is he avoiding those issues?
PERKINS: I think he does not feel comfortable with those issues, and he is just avoiding those issues. He has the record, where a good record on those issues where Barack Obama does not.
MARTIN: Campbell --
PERKINS: But he's not talking about it and Barack Obama is. MARTIN: Campbell, and Tony has to admit it, when you look at 2000 when he was critical of Falwell, critical of Robertson, he is not comfortable around these evangelical leaders.
PERKINS: That's scary.
MARTIN: And so, that's what the real issue is. He doesn't want to be around them.
BROWN: But Tony, final question here. Are you in the same position that Dr. Dobson seems to be, choosing the lesser of two evils? Is that how many people do feel about McCain and Obama at this moment?
PERKINS: Well, I think -- I think your poll is accurate that you showed there. When it comes down to it, most evangelicals are going to vote for John McCain but there's the lack of intensity and enthusiasm that he needs to keep from losing ground and to actually win the election.
BROWN: All right. Guys, we've got to end it there.
But to Roland, as always, and Tony Perkins, appreciate your time tonight. Thanks, guys.
PERKINS: Good to be with you.
BROWN: Coming up next, a life and death controversy that may be hitting your state. Should we have the death penalty for crimes that aren't murder? We'll talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This week the Supreme Court is considering several cases with sweeping implications, but this one is literally a question of life or death that many states and the elected officials of those states are closely watching.
Can a prisoner be sentenced to death for crimes other than murder? No one in the United States has been executed for rape since 1964, but a Louisiana man is now on death row for the rape of his 8- year-old stepdaughter and the high court will decide what happens next.
Sean Callebs has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An eye for an eye. Legally it has come to mean the punishment must fit the crime, and for at least the last 50 years U.S. courts have executed only those who committed murder. In other words, a life for a life, until perhaps now here in Louisiana.
BILLY SOTHERN, KENNEDY'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When we look at unusualness, whether it means to be cruel and unusual, this is exactly the kind of unusualness that raises these serious concerns about the constitutionality of Mr. Kennedy's death sentence.
CALLEBS: Mr. Kennedy is his client. Patrick Kennedy, 6'4", 300 pounds. Five years ago a jury convicted and sentenced him to death, not for murder but because Kennedy committed an unthinkable crime.
LYNN, VICTIM'S AUNT: He's a huge man. A person would never imagine how a man that size and an 8-year-old girl, you know, could even think towards that being in that situation.
CALLEBS: The victim is his stepdaughter.
LYNN: She would get ready for school and she would say he would come in the bathroom basically in the morning and rape her.
CALLEBS: But Kennedy wasn't discovered until an incident where he so brutalized a little girl that she went to the hospital for emergency surgery, a horrible crime, yet no one died. The fact is had Kennedy committed the assault in any other state he would not have received the death sentence. In 1995, Louisiana became the first state to make child rape a capital crime.
KATE BARTHOLOMEW, ORLEANS PARISH SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: A lot of people think that there should not be the death penalty because the child survives. In my opinion the rape of a child is more heinous and more hideous than a homicide.
CALLEBS: Kate Bartholomew is a sex crimes prosecutor in New Orleans.
BARTHOLOMEW: It takes away their innocence. It takes away their childhood. It mutilates their spirit. It kills their soul. They're never the same after these things happen.
CALLEBS: Billy Sothern is the deputy director of the Capital Appeals Project in New Orleans. His office is handling Kennedy's case and handles the appellate process for all inmates who receive a death sentence in Louisiana.
SOTHERN: I think that for the crime of rape it sends the wrong message to society to say that if someone is raped you need to kill that person who did it.
CALLEBS: Kennedy's defense sounds simple.
CALLEBS (on camera): This is the cemetery in Angola, a grim reminder that this facility houses the worst of the worst in Louisiana -- killers, rapists, men sentenced to at least 50 years behind bars. So in all likelihood, Patrick Kennedy is in Angola to stay even if his death sentence is overturned.
SOTHERN: In Louisiana, life means life. So I think that people who are concerned about law and order, people who are concerned about the possibility of someone who committed a child rape getting out and doing this again, in Louisiana that's not going to happen.
CALLEBS: Kennedy also has what may appear an unlikely ally, the Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assaults. Its director says testifying in a death penalty case is traumatic for a child and there's more.
JUDY BENITEZ, LOUISIANA FDN. AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULTS: That they're going to face the death penalty for raping the child, why would they leave a living witness?
CALLEBS: Louisiana's prosecutors believe the state legislature extended the death penalty to include child rapists for good reason.
BARTHOLOMEW: Louisiana has been a pro-death penalty state for a very long time. And I think a lot of people probably agree with the death penalty for this type of a case here in our state.
CALLEBS: Kennedy was convicted and sentenced to death unanimously by a jury of 12 of his peers, but his attorney says.
SOTHERN: It is precisely the role of the United States Supreme Court to determine when and when not a state, a state legislature, a state Supreme Court has gone too far.
CALLEBS: The young girl at the center of this attack is now in college and wants to be a lawyer. And yet, her family says like any other young victim she's been scarred forever and that they believe her rapist deserves the punishment handed down by the court.
LYNN: It's going to be justice. There's going to be -- it's going to be a lot of things. It's going to be that she can look forward not backwards, and happen to look over your shoulders and one day look at him, or see him or see him coming after her.
CALLEBS: Sean Callebs, CNN, New Orleans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When we come back, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin weighs in on the political and legal issues here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The state of Louisiana is determined to execute Patrick Kennedy not for murder but for rape. So are there some cases where the punishment should go beyond an eye for an eye? And that is the question facing the Supreme Court.
CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin is here to weigh in on that.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Wow.
BROWN: OK, we're asking you to do something tough which is predict the Supreme Court decision here, very dangerous game. But given what you know, are there clues, I guess? Given what you know of these justices that we can look at.
TOOBIN: Four very conservative justices very likely to say execute. Four fairly liberal justices likely to say overturn the penalty. Anthony Kennedy will be the swing vote here almost certainly, and in the oral argument of this case you could see how conflicted he was by this case. I think it's going to be 5-4, and it all depends on which way Kennedy goes.
BROWN: Wow. So if this execution is allowed to move forward, are we going to see more states having more executions for crimes well beyond the most gruesome?
TOOBIN: I think so, because they're conflicting pressures here. The Supreme Court has actually been moving away from the death penalty. This is the court that said no more execution of juveniles. No more execution of the mentally retarded. But politically, who is less popular than child rapists? What state legislature wouldn't vote for the death penalty for child rapists?
Jurors don't like child rapists, so I think this could be a green light both to states and to juries to say, OK, we're going to have a new class of people to be executed.
BROWN: A lot to keep an eye on here. All right, Jeff.
TOOBIN: Tomorrow or Thursday we'll know.
BROWN: We will. All right. We'll be watching, and we will see you then as well.
TOOBIN: All right.
BROWN: We're going to switch our focus back to one of the biggest guessing games in the presidential race. What will the Clintons, both of them, be doing for the rest of 2008? We're going to have that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": I'm Larry King in Los Angeles.
If foreclosure is at your front door, have we got a show for you. Donald Trump and other real estate experts offer advice on what and what not to do if you find yourself in a mortgage mess. Plus, we'll check up on what's happening on the campaign trail. There are a few juicy issues on the political menu tonight.
All coming up after ELECTION CENTER with Campbell Brown which continues after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Hillary Clinton, the junior senator from New York, returned to her day job on Capitol Hill today for the first time since she bowed out of the presidential race. SO what exactly is in store for the Clintons now?
Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is joining me with the very latest on that -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Campbell, who knows what's in the mind of any politician. But today when Hillary Clinton showed up on Capitol Hill, she was smiling and very much a team member.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): Except for cheering Senate staffers, it was an ordinary day on Capitol Hill as Hillary Clinton returned from an extraordinary primary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did good.
CROWLEY: On the record but not in front of cameras, Clinton said all she wants is to resume her day job.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My role is to be the very best senator I can be and to represent the greatest state in our country.
CROWLEY: It begs the question, is the Senate floor big enough when all the world has been your stage? Nothing signals she will be number two, including her.
H. CLINTON: It is not something that I think about. This is totally Senator Obama's decision, and that's the way it should be.
CROWLEY: So whether (ph) Hillary Clinton --
OBAMA: Senator Clinton has been a larger than life figure in Democratic politics and American politics.
CROWLEY: Barack Obama's plans are as grand as they are vague.
OBAMA: She's going to be a force to be reckoned with not only in the Senate but hopefully if I'm successful, in the White House. She's going to be one of my key partners.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The senator from New York.
CROWLEY: Still, Clinton's future is a complicated set of calculations both political and personal. She's a headliner, a go-to fund-raiser and should Obama lose, maybe a re-contender, but the first order of business is to retool the brand name and the legacy.
WILLIAM CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're asking me about this.
CROWLEY: There are lingering complaints from some party bigwigs that both Clintons sometimes went overboard roughing up Obama, hurting the party in pursuit of the nomination. In her press conference today Clinton was on track, all party all the time.
H. CLINTON: We're going to work very hard to elect Senator Obama our president, and we're going to work very hard to add to our numbers here in the Senate under the great leadership of Senator Reid, and my friend and colleague, Senator Schumer.
CROWLEY: And after 24 hours of questioning when and whether Bill Clinton would endorse Obama, his office tried to douse the stories. President Clinton's spokesman said, "is obviously committed to doing whatever he can and is asked to do." An uneasy truce may be near.
A source says Hillary Clinton and Obama have talked about getting her husband and Obama together. A close friend predicts in the long run Bill Clinton will return to his foundation refurbishing his legacy with the kind of good works that shaped his post-presidency.
As for the senator from New York, 18 million votes do not add up to power in the Senate, bound by tradition, rules and seniority. Clinton is 34th in seniority of the 51-member Democratic caucus. No chairmanship awaits her. But as the source put it, she'll work like hell.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Candy, you just reported a moment ago that Bill Clinton wants to make it absolutely clear that he is for Barack Obama, but you're hearing that there is a little bit of phone tag going on between these two guys, isn't there?
CROWLEY: There is. Obama has been apparently trying to get a hold of Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton, we're told, or at least Obama was told, is in Europe.
It's clear that a rapprochement of some sort is coming here. I don't think it will be an easy one. This has been in many, many ways harder for Bill Clinton than for Hillary Clinton simply because friends say, look, this was, you know, not just about his wife which absolutely he was so dedicated and really wanted her to win, perhaps they say even more so than when he was running for office, but it was also again about his legacy. So he had two things at stake and nothing turned out quite the way he wanted. So this has been a very tough row for him to hoe but he seems to be coming along prodded by his wife.
BROWN: All right, Candy, stay with me. I want to bring in also with me now Democratic strategist Lisa Caputo, who is Hillary Clinton's press secretary when Clinton was first lady, and Steve Kornacki, who is a columnist for "The New York Observer."
And Steve, let me get your take on this. Bill Clinton was top dog in the party for almost 15 years. The brand tarnished? If so, what does he need to do? Do you agree with some of what Candy was saying?
STEVE KORNACKI, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK OBSERVER": It absolutely is. In the story there's a certain symmetry here. There's a certain justice in a perverse way as I look at this because he came on to the national scene in 1992, and he took somebody's reputation out in the primaries in 1992, not in the general election but in the primaries in 1992. His opponent was Paul Tsongas. And he just dragged Paul Tsongas through the mud. He distorted his record. He twisted his words, and he made him into something he totally and completely wasn't.
Bill Clinton's calculation in 1992 was winners write history. So I go through this now. I say and do what I have to do, and everyone is going to forget about Paul Tsongas, and I can go on and do what I want to do as president. And you know what? It worked.
He got his two terms, became a god of the Democratic Party. You know what's happening now behind the scenes. He's been fulminating against the media this entire spring.
BROWN: Right.
KORNACKI: With all these people, Bill Richardson, who supposedly turned him in. His own former aide, Dee Dee Myers, in print. You know, he feels wronged but you know what? He's done it before. It's an imperfect world, but I feel like there is a certain justice in this.
BROWN: Lisa, karma, do you agree?
LISA CAPUTO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, my, I think it's the type of thing where clearly this was a very emotional primary race for him. It wasn't just about his wife obviously, but it was also to some extent about his legacy, and it's been painful for him most certainly.
But I think people need to cut the guy a break. I mean, he is the only, really the last two-term Democrat elected in the last 80 years. He is indeed, as Candy reported, in Europe. He's actually going on to be with Nelson Mandela for his 90th birthday.
The guy has returned to his foundation work just as Candy reported which is very deeply important to him, and I really do believe he will work his heart out for Senator Obama. I mean, David Axelrod was on your network a week ago saying, you know, they were hoping --
BROWN: With the Obama campaign, David Axelrod.
CAPUTO: Yes, David Axelrod, with the Obama campaign, saying, you know, look, you can't -- you can't -- not have Bill Clinton who arguably is one of the great Democratic strategists of this generation involved in this presidential race and that the Obama campaign, I think, just needs to decide how they'd like to engage him and what they'd like to use him for.
BROWN: All right. Guys, stay right here. When we come back I do want to talk a little bit about Hillary Clinton getting back to her day job. Can she find satisfaction there? We'll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: With me once again, Candy Crowley and Democratic strategist Lisa Caputo, and Steve Kornacki, columnist for "The New York Observer." And Lisa, we talked about Bill Clinton. But Senator Clinton, she's back to work, one of 100 in the Senate and not a lot of seniority at that. What does she do there? How does she carve out an equally media role for herself?
CAPUTO: Well, I think she has a very direct short-term agenda which is, and Barbara Mikulski put it great today when Hillary Clinton came back into the Senate and met with Senate Democrats, which was, we missed you. We need you. And I think she will go straight to work just as she did when she first came in the Senate, roll up her sleeves, aim to be a workhorse, not a show horse, deliver for the state of New York, deliver for the party, and her second priority is to get Barack Obama elected. And she will campaign her heart out.
Don't forget, she has a base there in the Democratic Party that Barack Obama needs -- women...
BROWN: Right.
CAPUTO: ... older voters, working class voters, Hispanics. She will be key to those constituencies.
BROWN: And Candy, as soon as she dropped out, a flurry of talk. She was dying for the spot on the Obama ticket. But now that the dust has settled a little bit, how realistic does this idea seem?
CROWLEY: I'm told first of all that she's ambivalent about it. Obviously, she would take it if offered in general. She has already said, look, I'll do anything that's asked of me. It has always seemed to me unlikely. It still seems to me unlikely.
BROWN: Do you agree, Steve?
KORNACKI: Absolutely. The polls -- you know, Barack Obama was only going to do this if the polls and the people around him, you know, told him he had to -- you know, make Hillary Clinton his vice president. But we've seen a flurry of polls now that show all of this fear that Clinton's voters are not going to go to Obama is not true. The national poll is at 15-point lead over the weekend, 12 today. All these key states that she won in the primary, remember...
BROWN: Right.
KORNACKI: Oh, he can't win them in the primary, he can't win them in the polls. He's up in Pennsylvania.
BROWN: But quickly, what role could he carve out for her that would make sense?
KORNACKI: Well, she could be, I think, potentially if he's elected president if you want to jump ahead, I could see her playing a key role in the Senate, and being, you know, the analogy is always made to Ted Kennedy. When he finally realized he was never going to be president, he went back to the Senate, he became a force there.
BROWN: Right. KORNACKI: You have an opportunity with Barack Obama becoming president. If she gives up the presidential dream, she could become a force in the Senate and sort of play the Ted Kennedy role.
BROWN: Is that how you see it?
CAPUTO: Oh, I see short term she's got to help him get elected and I think she could be used as fund-raiser in chief. She will rally the base in the Democratic Party that he fundamentally needs to win.
Don't forget, she won those battleground states, those big states and attracted, you know, women in a major way. If I were Barack Obama, I would lift that women's operation out of the Clinton campaign and put it right into my own campaign.
BROWN: All right. We've got to end it there.
Lisa Caputo, Steve Kornacki, and our own Candy Crowley, thanks, guys. Appreciate it as always.
That is it from us in the ELECTION CENTER tonight.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
