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This Week in Politics
Patriot Games; Exploding Economy; Changes in Attitude; The Age Divide; McCain Shakeup
Aired July 05, 2008 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to be talking about our broken healthcare system. 31 percent of the money in the healthcare system goes to administrators, paper-pushers -- some would say. CEOs average about $28 million. What do nurses get, the grunts, the workers?
I'm going to sit down with a group of nurses tonight and they tell it like it is. Real people -- not talking heads -- talking about the real deal here.
Also, do you remember this video of a woman who collapses in the emergency room of a psychiatric facility and no one helps her? She's dead. How can people walk just by a fellow human being and not help? We're going to look into that tonight and talk about all of us as a society.
Let's go to Tom Foreman now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Tom Foreman: On this Fourth of July weekend, the fireworks started early over a Website that compared Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler, over comments putting down John McCain's war record and over who is more patriotic. Is this anything to argue about, with the economy crackling and burning like the grand finale to the American dream?
"This Week in Politics" the fireworks grew into a firestorm. We'll give you the lowdown on a campaign that's getting low down right after a look at the news right now.
SANCHEZ: All right Tom thanks a lot. Right back at you in just a moment.
But first, let me just give you the headlines before we get back to Tom.
We're going to start with Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. They're going to be appearing together at three fund-raisers next week. We have learned that Clinton faithful may not be following her lead. A new poll suggests mixed support for Obama among Clinton backers. And growing numbers saying they're not going to vote at all in November.
A heated battle in Santa Barbara County, California. This is where a wildfire has burned more than 8,300 acres. Firefighters are saying that they've made progress against flames which are now about 24 percent contained; about a quarter of the work done. It's just one of the hundreds of blazes still burning right now in California.
We're getting amazing images from Colombia. This is the mission to rescue those 15 hostages from leftist rebels. The video documents a daring and cunning rescue operation; the former hostages include a former Colombian presidential candidate and three Americans. We'll go through it frame by frame for you at 10:00 Eastern.
I'm Rick Sanchez here at the world headquarters of CNN. I'm going to take you back to Tom Foreman and "THIS WEEK IN POLITICS."
FOREMAN: Happy Fourth of July weekend.
Americans celebrate this most patriotic of holidays, of course, with fireworks, backyard barbecues and waving the red, white and blue. But in "THIS WEEKS IN POLITICS," the tone was more red-white, black and blue as patriotism and service became a front-and-center issue for both candidates. Fireworks were lighting up the nation's capital and the campaign trail.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm proud of my record of service.
FOREMAN: John McCain's time as a prisoner of war in Vietnam is a key bid to his point to becoming commander in chief. But retired General Wesley Clark, a Barack Obama supporter and also a Vietnam vet, lit the afterburners with this comment.
RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, BARACK OBAMA SUPPORTER: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.
FOREMAN: McCain's supporters called it an attack on his patriotism and he fired back.
MCCAIN: The important thing is that's the kind of campaign that Senator Obama and his surrogates and his supporters want to gauge out. I understand that.
FOREMAN: Many Democrats are still seething over those Swift boat ads that torpedoed John Kerry's campaign. So Obama quickly said this is nothing like that.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Senator McCain deserves the utmost honor and respect for his service to our country.
FOREMAN: By week's end, General Clark was saying he never meant to insult the senator's military record.
GEN. CLARK: I never said anything this and that.
FOREMAN: Obama himself has been criticized for months, often in unsigned Internet emails taking heat over his patriotism, over flag pins, over comments by his wife. So in Harry Truman's hometown, Independence, Missouri, he hit back. OBAMA: I will never question the patriotism of others in this campaign. And I will not stand idly by when I hear others question mine.
FOREMAN: But as the politicians keep the patriotic pot boiling, the economic bad news keeps bubbling over with gas prices still soaring, families cutting back summer vacation plans, mortgages still teetering and no sign that either candidate has yet convinced the public he can put out the fire.
Joining us to discuss a week where politics took no holiday are Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent for "Time" Magazine and CNN Congressional correspondent Jessica Yellin.
Karen, in a race like this where there are so many very serious issues, is patriotism a legitimate issue?
KAREN TUMULTY, TIME MAGAZINE: I don't know what precisely people mean by the definition of patriotism. I mean, people who run for this office are doing it almost by definition because they love their country and want to take their country forward. But I do think that on both sides we've seen people trying to turn it into a wedge issue which I think is really unfortunate.
FOREMAN: It's strange too when you consider, Jessica. These are two U.S. senators, which for whatever problems we have with our Congress, overall we would like to think all senators are patriotic.
JESSICAL YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And what we see here is, at least, on Barack Obama's part, an effort to define his values and to define new issues as values issues. The Democratic Party, in general, has struggled in recent elections because they feel that they've let the Republican Party define what values matter in a political context; if it's abortion or marriage issues.
And so they want to broaden that definition to issues that matter to Democrats. The problem is, does it really resonate when people are worried about losing their jobs and paying for gas?
FOREMAN: When we did a poll about this, the results said that on John McCain side, we look at the question of is he patriotic? 90 percent of the people said John McCain is patriotic. Only 73 percent said Obama is patriotic.
Those are still overwhelming majorities, Karen. But does that suggest that Obama is taking a hit for a lot of untrue things that have been said about him but also just generally this impression that people have as well, you weren't in the military maybe you're not as patriotic?
TUMULTY: Well, I think he's taking a hit on two fronts. Yes, the rumor campaigns that are being waged largely on the Internet but really do appear to be seeping into the public consciousness have in fact taken a toll on Obama and on his campaign. But I also think part of the factor here is just that he is much more of an unknown to the American public. People know John McCain. If they know anything about him, it's his war record. I think that's a testament to character, but it is not -- particularly at a time when the public has a lot of very concrete problems that they are looking for solutions to, this isn't sufficient.
I mean this is an American public that in the last four elections has had a choice between somebody with a war record and somebody who didn't have a war record and in all four cases chose the guy who didn't have the war record.
FOREMAN: There's been a new poll that we also did this weekend where we asked people, how proud are you to be an American? 61 percent said extremely proud; 28 percent said very proud. And yet interestingly when we said how would the signers of the Declaration of Independence feel about the U.S. today, 69 percent said they would be disappointed.
I don't know what to make of this, Jessica, because in one breath, you can see why people would say we need a leader who's proud of our country and in the next breath, you could see people saying that they might side with Michelle Obama and say, gee, I see a lot of problems in the country that should be addressed. Great country but we have serious problems.
YELLIN: But doesn't that speak to why this is a change election? People are just feeling dissatisfied at the moment. Things aren't going in the right direction on the economy. They still -- the rest of the world is not looking favorably on the U.S. We're in a war that you, at least, cannot say the U.S. is winning.
So people are sensing that something's not right and they want a change. So maybe another way to express that is we need to get back to what we used to love about America, feeling we were on the right track.
FOREMAN: The treacherous territory here, of course,being whether or not we are on the right track.
I want to talk a little bit about the economy. The news on the economy seems to be getting worse and worse. The numbers time and again show that the public says this is the issue we're going to vote on.
Are either one of these people connecting really with an answer at this point, because they keep saying generally the right things? But I'm not convinced the voters out there are saying, "You've got it."
TUMULTY: I think not at this point in terms of concrete solutions. And it's interesting because part of another political development this week was yet another shake-up of the John McCain campaign. And one of the reasons is a fear among his own advisers and Republicans outside the campaign that they really haven't gotten a consistent message; that they are not connecting with people.
He is off in Colombia talking about free trades. They are not connecting with people on the issues they care about. FOREMAN: Do you think that, Jessica, it's going to be enough for a candidate to really hammer home that idea of, "I understand your problems," or do you think they have to sell, " And I have a real solution?"
YELLIN: I think they have to sell the solution. And I think both of these men have been loath to lay out any sort of very detailed policy plans because they don't want to get nailed down and then be accused of flip-flopping.
FOREMAN: Is that a problem also of the length of this campaign? I was thinking earlier today, the length of this campaign is like asking someone now to pick out their fall wardrobe for 2012.
YELLIN: You haven't?
FOREMAN: You have no idea. You might pick a great wardrobe but it might be the wrong one.
TUMULTY: Most people won't, by the way, be able to afford a fall wardrobe this year.
YELLIN: I also think that there's a problem on the Obama side; a challenge I should say because they are suddenly having to gear up for a general election. They haven't had any downtime. There's an exhaustion factor and they have to just explode the campaign staff by a exponential factor to grow it to the side of an election campaign.
How do you start generating policy ideas and getting everything through? It's sort of a small funnel at this point.
FOREMAN: Do you think at this point that for the average voter who's sitting out there who's saying, "Look, I'm worried about my gas prices. I'm worried about the security of my job, whether I can keep my house and whether my kids can go to college," that there's still an equal opportunity for either one of these candidates to come out and say, "Here is my plan and it will work for you?"
TUMULTY: I think it's not precisely equal for one reason and that is George Bush. John McCain has the additional burden of having to go into this environment sort of saddled, to some degree at least, with the Bush record.
FOREMAN: And we're running a little bit short of time. So Jessica, I'll give you the last word here. He is saddled a little bit with the Bush record and yet, stunningly, the polls continue to show he's running a very competitive race with Barack Obama.
YELLIN: As in every election, there's a huge number of people who just don't decide until the end. Not everyone is paying as much attention as we are. And those are the voters both guys are going to go for in the end.
FOREMAN: I have trouble thinking anybody doesn't pay as much attention as we do. Karen and Jessica, thank you both. Still to come in today's show, rock solid values go out the window as the candidates race to the middle of the road. Will young voters change everything or just stay home?
And comedian Will Durst goes after everyone. Listen --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILL DURST, POLITICAL SATIRIST: The great thing about McCain is when history starts repeating itself, he'll be the first to know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: All that and we've got a special feature for Independence Day. We're going to test your national knowledge and see what you don't know about this great country. And it starts right now.
First, what is the official name of the Statue of Liberty? And what is written on that tablet that she guards so closely? The answers when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: Chrissy Hines says the middle of the road is trying to find her. John McCain and Barack Obama are trying so hard to find the middle of the road as they're being accused of flip-flopping on everything from the economy to religion.
Joining me to admire this parade of veering values are Republican strategist, Leslie Sanchez, a CNN contributor and Democratic strategist, Chris Kofinis.
But first, our test of national knowledge. The answer -- the official name of this lovely lady is "Liberty Enlightening the World" which makes sense since she used to double as a lighthouse. And on that tablet, the date of the Declaration of Independence -- the day it was signed.
All right gang. Let's turn to this first of all. I know you're going to say first that your guy is not moving toward the middle; he's been rock solid from the beginning.
So let's start that way. Chris, is Obama moving toward the middle?
CHRIS KOFINIS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: No. All right listen. I think there's a big difference between explaining the position in light of new developments, as we've seen the issues like the Supreme Court case and things like that, versus I think what you've seen from Senator McCain who has fundamentally changed his position and who he is as a candidate from 2000.
The joke that I say to people is the John McCain of 2000 wouldn't vote for the John McCain of 2008 because he's flip-flopped on so many of these fundamental issues like tax cuts, social security, immigration, drilling -- there's a big difference.
FOREMAN: Leslie, same free pitch to you. Is your guy moving to the middle?
LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The biggest distinction is Barack Obama won his nomination by appealing to the extreme left. John McCain did it by appealing to the middle. And now he has to talk to the right. There's a big difference in how these two candidates are.
And you cannot in all honesty look at Barack Obama and all his political jujitsu and think he hasn't changed on everything from gun control to terrorist surveillance to campaign finance to withdrawal time line for Iraq. The list goes on and on. We're not really quite sure if he's made up his mind on these positions or which position he's going to hold.
FOREMAN: All right, ok. It's Fourth of July weekend. But that's enough softball.
We're going to get down to the real questions. Let's look at McCain first. Let's look at some of the things that he would be seen to be moving on -- tax cuts. At one point he said this is a bad idea. Now he says he wants to keep them. Oil drilling -- that was one of the things. He didn't like the idea of offshore oil drilling, now he seems to be all for that. And he's been sort of courting the religious right after slamming the religious right in the past.
If you look at this, Leslie, you could certainly see how McCain's opponents would say, "He's trying to play the middle harder here." What do you think?
SANCHEZ: I think he's adjusting to the economy and the situation that's changed on the ground. You know it's interesting when you're talking, for example, about offshore drilling. One thing it does do is it basically can do a little bit to soften the futures market. People have an understanding that something needs to be done. We understand this is a country dependent on fossil fuels.
He's trying to adjust to an economic situation right now. And he's honest about it. Tax cuts, same thing, growing for the economy. It's very different from something like public finance where you ultimately make a pledge and then dishonor it.
FOREMAN: Ok, let's turn to Obama then Chris. You look at this, this is our chart on him. Wiretapping, a lot of liberals like the fact that he was so against this idea of the new FISA bill. Now he's for it.
Campaign finance, he said was going to take part in public finance as the Republican did. He changed his mind on that. And there was this talk about D.C. gun ban, that's not really so much a changing view as much as something that wasn't expected by a lot of liberals that he would go that way.
On the Obama front, look, he was named at one point the most liberal senator in this nation. The simple truth is even a Democrat in this country doesn't want to run as the most liberal senator in this nation. What do you say about this with Obama? KOFINI: If you look at his positions, even on wiretapping for example, what he said the concern was about retroactive immunity in enforcing the law. The law has been changed so now the president has to follow the law.
In terms of the gun issue, if you look at, for example, his position on gun control, he's made it very clear that he supports the second amendment but he also believes in common sense gun control. For example, like background checks and closing the loopholes -- certain loopholes.
I have this ironic position where you look at what Leslie is saying and look at fundamental flip-flops in order to appease a base versus what Senator Obama's been doing which is explaining the reality of certain positions as they become bigger issues.
FOREMAN: Let me ask you both this and I'll start with you Leslie. One of the real complaints that voters seem to have in this election overall is that too often politicians are in the position of explaining why what they're saying today is not really what they were saying six months ago and it makes people not trust politicians.
Both of these gentlemen are running as agents of change -- we're not going to be like the old politics. What you guys are saying sounds a lot like old politics.
SANCHEZ: I'm so glad you said. That hits the nail exactly on the head. We've got to bring it back to the voters. What are you looking at?
That's also a distinct difference and a deficiency with the Obama campaign in the sense he doesn't have a lot of longevity. People don't really know him. He's going to bleed harder from these flip- flops than another candidate that people have a sense of who they are.
FOREMAN: Hold on a second. Leslie, in one breath you're saying we need to get away from that. And then the next thing you do is do precisely that.
SANCHEZ: No, I'm saying you're exactly --
FOREMAN: Leslie is flip-flopping.
SANCHEZ: We need to get away from it but that doesn't mean they don't do it.
FOREMAN: Chris, jump in. Hold on, let's listen.
KOFINIS: The reality is this happens in every election. There are going to be certain qualifications and certain explanations that are going to --
FOREMAN: You say it happens in every election and people are saying, Republicans and Democrats and certainly a lot of moderates are saying, let's not make this like every election. You guys stand for something, stand for it. KOFINIS: I mean, I agree. Listen, I think the concern that both candidates have and face is in trying to explain your position, does it sound like a new position? The reality is I think moving to the center in this notion that somehow moving to the center wins you elections, I think, has always been a kind of an exaggerated explanation of past elections.
You can look at past elections and actually see candidates who actually run with their base and have won the presidency, Bush, for example, in 2004. I would argue Carter in '76. Reagan in '80. And there've been candidates that have run to the center like Clinton in '96 and won.
I think, it's kind of a mixed bag in terms of this notion of running to the center. At the end of the day, voters want to see is that you have a vision as to how you're going to lead the country.
For me, the biggest issue right now is not running to the center, it's centering on the economy. And that's where I think Barack Obama has a significant advantage.
SANCHEZ: Bottom line, he runs to the center because he's so far to the left. This is a country that's right of center.
KOFINIS: Please. If this country is right of center, have you been living in the same country that I've been living in?
SANCHEZ: Chris, real quickly. What I'm saying is this is a guy who sounds like he will say and do anything.
FOREMAN: And what I'm saying is we're out of time. Thanks for joining us, Leslie and Chris. This sounds like the same old politics all the way around.
We've heard from a couple of supporters. In a moment, Will Durst, who is everyone's opponent.
But first, question number two in our test of national knowledge. Can you name all the presidents on Mt. Rushmore? And what is the secret hidden behind their heads? Think about that when we return to this week's political sideshow.
"The Hill" is a popular newspaper here in D.C. for those keeping up with the Capitol crowd but not so popular in one senator's office; political reports that Hillary Clinton staff stopped delivery after recent reporting they felt was unfair and untrue. Her spokesman said they just did not need the paper anymore now that the office puppy is finally housetrained. Talk about bitter.
And you thought the hit program "24" was only responsible for far too many people thinking that torture is the way to save the world. Now Dennis Hayesburth, the actor who played "David Palmer," a fictional African-American president says it opened the eyes of the American people to the possibility of a real African-American president.
And even though he got killed off several seasons ago, Hayesburth says people still come up to him on the street and ask him to run. Hey, people, it's not real.
And if you thought Canadians only paid attention to competition on the ice, you're wrong. They've been watching the political battles across the border. According to a Canadian poll, our neighbors to the north really like Barack Obama. In fact, they apparently prefer him to any of their own politicians.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: Let's see how you're doing on our test of national knowledge. The faces carved in stone at Mt. Rushmore are Washington, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln.
The secret is tougher. There is a tunnel just behind those famous heads cut from solid granite. It was supposed to be a grand hall of records. But money ran out before it could be completed.
Completing sentences has become quite a challenge in this campaign. We always ask politicians to speak honestly, don't just read the speech. Then when they misstate something, we hammer them.
On this Independence Day, we turn to political satirist Will Durst. His new book is titled "The All American Sport of Bipartisan Bashing" and when we spoke, I began by asking him if political correctness is getting in the way of free speech.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DURST: I don't know. Free speech is in deep trouble. I think it's entering its assisted living phase right now. Everybody is getting into trouble for saying one little thing and it's always taken out of context.
FOREMAN: For example, Barack Obama made his comment about the people in Pennsylvania earlier on. He used the word "bitter" and that word alone seemed to poison the sentence.
DURST: I'm a third generation blue-collar rat from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I know all my friends, with the cost of gas going up and the foreclosures and it's -- it's an incredible time for living below the median class. If you're not bitter, you're not paying attention.
FOREMAN: John McCain has been nailed for a couple of comments he's made which actually, if you look at them with an unbiased eye, as much as we can all try to, they don't really mean much.
Like he said a 100 years in Iraq, he clearly meant a military presence and yet he's been beaten up over and over again. They said you want 100 years of war in Iraq. Is that sort of thing fair?
DURST: No, I don't think it is. Obviously he meant that -- we're still in Korea. We're still in the demilitarized zone. We've been there through '60s. We're still in Guantanamo Bay. That's in Cuba. They don't even like it. We've been there since the Spanish-American war. And John McCain should know how that transition works since he was there at the time.
FOREMAN: Can you make jokes like that about people these days? It seems like if you actually make a joke about John McCain's age or somebody says something about Barack Obama's race or they say something about Hillary Clinton being a woman that no matter how they approach it and no matter what they mean to say, the minute they raise that, it's potentially explosive?
DURST: This is a very touchy time for political -- we had the great seven years of George W. Bush who was a white guy -- a southern white guy with mangled text. I mean, he was like if Reagan and Quayle had a kid.
But now you're right. There are special interest groups and Barack Obama, he doesn't even look black until he's standing next to John McCain. And then John McCain's age and what I try to do is I try to turn it into a positive. The great thing about McCain is when history starts repeating itself, he'll be the first to know.
FOREMAN: A lot of it's being fueled by the Internet though, isn't it. These things get out there; everything that's said gets captured. It gets replayed over and over and over again.
DURST: Well, it makes us work harder to get at the truth because we hear so much. You have to remember, the Internet is, what? It's 12 years old. It's a teenager. It's a preteen. And I think the Internet is acting like a preteen right now.
FOREMAN: What advice would you have as somebody who's been observing politics for a long time, looking at the funny part of it and the not so funny part of it, what advice would you have to people on Independence Day weekend if they want to look at the candidates independently and say, I want to really have a clear, clean vision of what these people stand for, aside from all the spin?
DURST: You got to find somebody who doesn't have a horse in this race. You got to find somebody who's totally impartial.
Now, I would suggestion you just pay attention to CNN. But there are other Websites and people will trust some Websites. There are websites that are totally nonpartisan, that are out there just to break up the rumors and the lies and to give you the straight dope. I would seek that out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Words of wisdom from Will Durst. Coming up next, we'll pit age and cunning against youth and enthusiasm. But right now, it's time to deal with one truly old dude.
Yes everyone knows this is Uncle Sam. But do you know where the name came from and where did the inspiration come for this All-American recruiting poster?
While you're mulling that over, we'll turn to some horror movies you won't be seeing at the local multiplex. The candidates are the stars in this week's viral videos.
First up, Barack Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would senator Obama know Americans are bitter if he weren't eating them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: We know that he's hungry to win the election, but this is ridiculous.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vote McCain.
You thought it was over, but it won't stop. The McCainiac will take over where the Bush left off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: John McCain stars in a spoof of "Friday the 13th."
But when McCain's not impersonating Jason, he's hitting the dance floor, look at those moves. Who says he's too old to be president?
We'll towel off and be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
R. SANCHEZ: I'm Rick Sanchez here at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Here's what's going on right now.
Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are going to appear together in three fund-raisers next week. But Clinton faithful aren't going to be following her lead. A new poll suggests mixed support for Obama among Clinton Backers. A growing number is saying they won't vote at all in November rather than vote for McCain or Obama.
We're getting amazing images coming out of Colombia; this mission to rescue 15 hostages from leftist rebels. This is the video; it documents a daring and cunning rescue operation. The former hostages include a former Colombian presidential candidate, Ingrid Betancourt and three Americans who were held with her. We're going to go through it frame by frame at 10:00 Eastern.
Count on even higher prices at the pump this weekend. Oh, what a surprise! For the sixth straight day, we have a new record. AAA says the national average for a gallon of record is up to $4.10. That's over $1.15 higher than one year ago.
I'm Rick Sanchez. Let's take you back now to "THIS WEEK IN POLITICS."
FOREMAN: So who is this guy? Seen here singing Beatles music in the movie "Across the Universe." According to one story, soldiers in the war of 1812 were supplied with meat from a butcher named Sam Wilson. The meat was stamped with the letters "U.S., Uncle Sam."
Where did the poster come from? The inspiration came from this World War I British poster, nice mustache. That's the latest in our quiz. More coming up.
But right now, that music means it's time to turn to our devil's dictionary. Today we're looking at is the "youth vote." The definition? The political equivalent of fireworks, lots of flash and bang with little lasting effect.
To help us measure the seismic shocks of the youth effect on this race, Ben Ferguson joins us now from Memphis, Tennessee. And with me in our Washington studio, is CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider, a man who like me is still young at heart.
And Bill, when we look at this race, of all the divides we've talked about, left and right, liberal and conservative, the age divide is one of the most pronounced. Explain.
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It is very big. You're seeing young voters in tremendous numbers supporting Barack Obama. Older voters who in the past have been pretty Democratic are split right now between Obama and McCain. There's a heavier than usual vote among seniors for John McCain. You could say they're his peeps.
FOREMAN: The cutoff is roughly around the age of 45.
SCHNEIDER: Right as you get above 45, McCain starts doing better, Obama starts doing worse. The fact that McCain -- the age difference between these two candidates is bigger than we've ever seen; 25-year difference is certainly part of it.
There's another hypothesis here; I can think of two others. One is the Internet; Obama is using the Internet to reach a lot of young voters. It's the basis of his movement; it's something new. He can bypass television, he can bypass news conferences and go directly to his followers.
Here's another hypothesis -- older people used to be heavily Democratic because they came through the Depression. But the Depression generation is beginning to die off so they're becoming more Republican.
FOREMAN: Ok, Ben Ferguson, you need to answer for your generation. You're a Conservative in your bent and yet you're surrounded by many, many young people who don't feel so much that way; maybe feel disaffected from politics in general. What do you think is going on?
BEN FERGUSON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think a lot of them like this whole idea of hope and change. It's kind of the new word for peace. Remember when all the young people were for world peace and throwing up the peace signs and everything else?
Well now the new word for that, the new lingo to get on the boat and I'm anti-establishment, I'm anti-Washington, anti-the old guy with white hair, John McCain, is I'm for hope and change.
FOREMAN: Wait a minute, Ben, I think you're talking about Bill and I when you say the old guys with white hair.
FERGUSON: It's a new thing as it's V for Barack Obama because he's for hope and change. I don't know what that means. I think older voters don't really know what it means and younger people don't care what it means. It sounds good.
Do I think younger people will support him? Yes. It doesn't mean they're going to go out and vote for him though. You look at the last election, when we had MTV do 20 million strong in "Rock the Vote" and all this stuff.
There were more young people that voted but it was the same percentage of the overall vote because overall, more people voted in the last election than the one before it. So I don't know if they're necessarily going to show up. They thought they were going to show up for John Kerry and they didn't.
The young people, do they have an opinion? Yes. Does that mean they're going to go vote? I don't think so.
FOREMAN: Bill, let me ask you this, Barack Obama is not John Kerry and he has excited a lot of young people. They certainly showed up in the primary and caucus season. But does Ben have a point? When you talk about November, are they necessarily going to show up?
SCHNEIDER: The record shows that young voters are always a disappointment. They were a disappointment to George McGovern who thought they could rally them when 18-year-olds first got to vote and they faced a draft and it didn't work.
But this year could be different for a simple reason. I think the Obama campaign is not just a campaign, it's a movement. People don't just support it. They belong to it.
And the Internet really is the basis of this movement. That's how he communicates with his following. And when they look at older people, they say, you know they just don't get it. That's their view of older people. And older people don't get, they're not part of the movement; they don't feel that they belong to it.
But I think this year, it could be very different.
FERGUSON: Movement is a key word that you're going to hear this year. But I think part of the reason why you had this movement is because you had young against young. You had Hillary's young people against Barack Obama's young people and there was inspiring fight there within that party to get your guy to win.
Between now and November, there's not as much infighting and as close of a fight you had between Hillary and Obama. I think that's why the movement may die out a little bit.
FOREMAN: Ben, let me ask you this question then. If you're a young conservative and you'd like more people to support McCain, presumably, what does John McCain do at his age to reach across that gap because truly there are so many young people who I run into who say, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's wonderful. But he's so different than me.
FERGUSON: I'll be honest with you, if I'm advising John McCain right now, I would tell him to not inspire young people to come out and vote because for every one he turns out to vote for him, he'll end up inspiring two or three other people to come out and vote for Barack Obama.
FOREMAN: Let's not get out the youth vote movement?
FERGUSON: Yes, if you're John McCain, I wouldn't want to inspire young people. That's going to get that movement vote to kick your tail. And that's the last thing he needs to do.
FOREMAN: Do you think that's true, Bill?
SCHNEIDER: No, I think that he can't turn young people off.
FERGUSON: No, I'm not saying turn them off. I'm just saying I wouldn't go out there and try to rock the vote.
SCHNEIDER: I think what he can do is promote his story, his history. He's got a life story, a personal appeal that really cuts across generations. I think a lot of young people admire him.
He's not going to win this election on issues, on party, on ideology. He can only win it one way -- well two ways.
One is to create doubts about Obama. Does he have the experience necessary? Even young people have those doubts. And second of all, because of personal admiration for John McCain.
FOREMAN: I have personal admiration for both of you. You've bridged the gap so beautifully here, Bill and Ben.
FERGUSON: Thanks for having us.
FOREMAN: Next, how is the war on terror being affected by recent legal decisions? And are we putting ourselves in danger? That, in just a moment.
But now sharpen your pencils or get out your pens. We have got another question in our test of national knowledge.
It's a pretty good bet that you recognize these guys. You might have even seen them march by in a parade this weekend. Here is the question. When was this image of the American Revolution painted? And we know it as the "Spirit of '76." What was the original title?
While you're puzzling that out, we'll leave you with the sights and sounds of this year's political Spirit of '76.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On this Fourth of July, we pay tribute to the brave men and women who wear the uniform of the United States of America.
We also honor Jefferson's legacy by welcoming newcomers to our land.
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FOREMAN: In the 1962 movie "The Manchurian Candidate," American soldiers captured by North Koreans were brainwashed and forced to betray their country.
For those of us raised on stories of Communist torture, this week's reports that interrogation techniques used at Guantanamo Bay were in part based on Korean war era Communist methods was, to say the least, chilling. The legal framework for Guantanamo and the entire war on terror has been attacked in a series of legal decisions lately. So are we better off or in greater danger?
To help me sort it out, Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre is at his post and with me in Washington, Jonathan Turley a professor at George Washington University Law School.
Jonathan, the Bush administration has really been hammered in the past few weeks on this. Generally, what has happened?
JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well, they lost all the major claims they have made before the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has repeatedly come down and said that you can't deny these people things like habeas corpus, the great writ. They've questioned the rules under which these people were to be tried.
The result is that for almost eight years now, the administration has spent a huge amount of money, a great deal of international credibility and they literally have nothing to show for it. They're struggling to try to get a couple of people convicted before the president leaves office so that he can say that he got something out of these tribunals.
FOREMAN: The fundamental is question is how we handled the people we pick up who we say are terrorists or enemy combatants in this war on terror, right?
TURLEY: That's the great irony. If you had taken these people and simply put them into the federal court, most of them would be convicted by now. Most of them would be serving time or waiting for the death penalty.
Instead, most of the people at Guantanamo Bay have been released. Many have been found to be completely innocent. And they are working very hard to just get a couple of points up on the board before the president leaves so they could say something happened as a result of all this.
FOREMAN: Let me put up on the board what these rulings had been recently and give you just a general sense of what they look like. If you look at the graphic, the first one, establish habeas corpus for U.S. detainees. The second one, rules of the military tribunals created by the Bush administration violate the Geneva conventions. And the third one, establish habeas corpus for foreign detainees.
Jamie, that's a lot of legal talk, but in simple military terms, what does this mean? Is this in some way going to impede or change the way that we handle enemy combatants in the future and does it really make a difference?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's two things going on here. One is whether they're going to be able to, as Jonathan Turley says, win convictions. The other goal of this whole program is to produce the kind of intelligence that can prevent another attack on the United States.
These rulings clearly are going to make -- certainly calls into question the future of Guantanamo. It certainly calls into question what legal basis the United States can continue to hold a lot of these people, because as Professor Turley says, they've lost one round after another.
But the focus on this issue has already changed the way the U.S. treats these people. The official position of the U.S. government, the Pentagon specifically, is that it doesn't torture people. It treats them humanely. But we've seen from the testimony of what's gone on over the last five, six, seven years that that hasn't always been the case in the past.
FOREMAN: So Jamie, you say it's already changed it. In what practical way has it changed?
MCINTYRE: There's a lot more oversight now over what's going on at Guantanamo. Also with people who are held outside, a lot more focus on the CIA detention of people in secret places that we don't know about and how they're treated.
And just the fact that these detainees now do have access to the courts and can make their case. And like the most recent case of a Muslim from China, the court basically ruled that the U.S. has no basis to classify him as an enemy combatant.
FOREMAN: Jonathan, are the legal tools still there, though, to handle these people who we capture? Obviously no American wants a dangerous terrorist captured somewhere to get off on a technicality.
TURLEY: The irony is that the Bush administration's proven the greatest ally to defense attorney. All the things they've done have undermined any chance for real prosecution. One of the reasons the president created his legal system is that a lot of these people were tortured. Not a lot of them, but we know a number of them were tortured.
They have a serious problem of proof because of how they were interrogated and how they gathered evidence. But the fact is that very few of these individuals will actually be prosecuted in the tribunal. Those that they've turned over like Padilla, they had to charge him with entirely different crime because --
FOREMAN: I have a question though. Do we have laws in place to handle this?
TURLEY: Absolutely.
FOREMAN: it's been one of the complaints that we do not have that.
TURLEY: I have to tell you I think that's completely just ridiculous. We have very, very strict laws. Look, I handle terrorism cases and national security cases. It's very hard to win those cases because things like material support, being part of a terrorist organization, those require very little proof.
FOREMAN: I want to ask Jamie very quickly here. Jamie, is there a sense at the Pentagon, and we can talk about this all day, but we just don't have the time. Is there a sense at the Pentagon that these rulings, fundamentally, brass tax will make us more safe or less safe or better able or less able to prosecute the war on terror
MCINTYRE: Well, I think the general feeling in the Pentagon is that the rulings do support the rule of law. However, they are going to make it for difficult to sometimes to handle these kinds of suspects where they may not have the level of proof you need to make a case in court. But they sincerely believe they are bad people with bad intent.
FOREMAN: All right, Jamie, thanks so much. Jonathan, too. Great discussion. We got to take this up again.
Up next, the inside track on next week's political punditry, and, the answer to our latest quiz question on national knowledge. I know you're thinking about that. Listen. Here's a hint.
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FOREMAN: That's James Cagney in the classic movie, "Yankee Doodle Dandy." And that's the next answer in our Fourth of July quiz. This "Spirit of 76" was painted by Archibald Willard, a civil war veteran a full century after the first July 4th.
And the original name of the paints was "Yankee Doodle." Well, enough history it's time for "Fast Track" and a look at the future with CNN deputy political director, Paul Steinhauser.
McCain has shaken up his staff. What can we expect now?
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: There's a new sheriff in the McCain camp, Steve Schmidt. He was a big wig in Bus- Cheney back in '04 and he kind of ran the Schwarzenegger re-election two years ago. Expect McCain this week with a new leadership to talk about the economy. Jobs first, they'll be pushing that this week Tom.
FOREMAN: Obama refused public money. What does that mean now?
STEINHAUSER: That means his job this week, raise money, the big bucks, the big cash. Because the more he races, the more he can outspend McCain in September and October in prime time.
FOREMAN: Both McCain and Obama are scheduled to address Hispanic groups this week. You haven't heard a lot about that lately. What does this mean?
STEINHAUSER: Latinos and Hispanics are crucial voters in this election, especially in some key states like Florida, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico. Obama and McCain are going be in two different conferences this week coming up courting this kind of voters, Tom. They're big in this election.
FOREMAN: We'll see how it turns out. Paul Steinhauser, thank you very much.
And, now for the final question in our holiday quiz, and, of course, this one is the toughest.
Who is the only woman to be featured on U.S. Currency? And before you start shouting out Susan B. Anthony and Sachajuwea, because I know you are, we're talking about folding green here; paper money. Think about it. The answer after we earn a bit of that stuff ourselves.
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FOREMAN: And now, the answer to our final question in our test of national knowledge. The answer is, this tough woman right here; Martha Washington. Yes. In the 1800s, she was on the $1 silver certificate. There she is up there. That was back when a buck was worth a buck.
On E-bay, where we found this one, these bills are going for upwards of $200 now. As for the first First lady, here's something you probably didn't know about Martha Dandridge Custis Washington. She hated the job.
She wrote to a friend she said, I think I am more like a state prisoner than anything else. And said she would much rather be at home.
We hope you've enjoyed your time at home this holiday weekend. Thanks for joining us.
I'm Tom Foreman. Thanks for watching.
And stay tuned. Straight ahead, "LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK."
