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Nancy Grace
Missing North Carolina Jogger Found Dead
Aired July 15, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. A young mom goes jogging 7:00 AM Saturday morning, upscale suburbs, Cary, North Carolina, leaving two little girls at home with dad. Finally, 3:00 PM, her neighbor and friend calls police. As we go to air, local police announce a body found at an undeveloped retention pond not on her regular jogging route is the missing mom. Why didn`t Daddy report her missing? Why was her Louis Vuitton purse left in her car? Where was her cell phone?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As the chief of the Cary Police Department, it is my very sad duty to tell you that the search for our Nancy is over. Earlier today, the state medical examiner in Chapel Hill told us that it was Nancy who was found last night just miles from her home, in Lochmere. Nancy was murdered, and our investigation is now a homicide. We do not believe it was a random act of violence. The area where Nancy was found has been treated as a crime scene since she was discovered around 7:30 PM last night. At this hour, we still have not named a suspect or a person of interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Clarksville, Tennessee, Mommy and Daddy head to a local bar to party hearty inside. But uh-oh, they forget something. What is it? Their baby locked in the car for hours on end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another baby left in a hot car. Police arrested a Tennessee couple after they allegedly left their 5-month-old infant in a Chevy Silverado for at least three-and-a-half hours while they reportedly went to the bar. An officer was in the area on an unrelated matter when he discovered the baby inside the car with the windows rolled up and the doors locked. The parents were found inside the bar and taken into custody. They now face child abuse and neglect charges.
This has been the sixth incident in Montgomery County alone in the last seven months, including the death of 3-month-old Faith Nichols (ph), who was allegedly left in a hot car for six hours by her mother, who is now charged with first degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, a young mom goes jogging 7:00 AM Saturday morning, upscale suburbs, Cary, North Carolina, leaving two little girls at home with dad. As we go to air, local police announce a body found at an undeveloped retention pond, a pond not on her regular jogging route, is the missing mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to thank all the hundreds of volunteers that came out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman goes out for a run and never comes back, yet her husband does not call to report her missing. Now after a grisly discovery in the woods, police have a body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police and hundreds of volunteers have been searching for the mother of two since she was first reported missing Saturday. At first, police said her husband reported her missing after she didn`t come home from an early morning jog. However, the police chief of Cary now says it wasn`t Cooper`s husband who reported her missing, but a friend Saturday afternoon. Police say the couple had been having marital problems. Friends confirm the couple was in the process of separating, but that Brad Cooper, Nancy`s husband, refused to leave the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Nicole Partin, investigative reporter. What`s the latest?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Good evening, Nancy. What we know is that the body of a young 34-year-old stay-at-home mother of two was found about three miles from her home, in an undeveloped upper-scale subdivision. We know that the husband was the last to see her. We also know that it was not her husband, Brad, who reported her missing, but rather a friend of the family that she was supposed to meet early Saturday morning.
GRACE: To Gurnal Scott with WPTF radio, joining us there in Raleigh. Gurnal, tell me about this retention pond area. From what I can tell, it was not on her regular jogging route, and I find that very, very significant. She was training for a half marathon. She told her husband, according to him, that she was going out training. How did she end up there?
GURNAL SCOTT, WPTF RADIO: Well, that is a good question, and that`s a piece of information, if the Cary police do know that, that they aren`t sharing with us. It wasn`t on her regular route. The area where she lives in Cary has a lot of areas, walking areas, riding trails, where you can run and run safely and run with other people. But this happened to be off the beaten track for her, and I believe that will be one of the very key things that police will be looking at as they continue their investigation...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I want to report, again, the husband is not a suspect. He has not been named a suspect at this juncture.
But to Joe Lawless and Carmen St. George -- let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls tonight. I`ve got a problem with him going from 7:00 AM until 3:00 PM, Carmen St. George, he doesn`t report her missing? A neighbor friend does when she doesn`t show up to the home?
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, he had conversations with that neighbor friend, and he told the neighbor friend that the last time that he saw her, she had gone out for a jog with another friend. So there`s no reason for him, as far as we know, based on the facts as we know them, to suspect that anything suspicious had happened until such time that we hear that the person that she went out jogging with hasn`t been with her or we don`t hear from her, then something might be...
(CROSSTALK)
ST. GEORGE: It`s not unusual.
GRACE: Carmen, Carmen, Carmen, pause. She leaves 7:00 AM. Her appointment with her friend, the neighborhood friend, I believe, painting her home or something like that on the inside, was not until late in the afternoon. All those hours pass, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, eight hours. Carmen, you`re the newlywed. You go out jogging and eight hours pass, you don`t think your husband would be a little bit concerned, eight hours?
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, I would think that my husband would be concerned if he hadn`t known that I had some other plans, other than going out for a jog. Now, we know that her friend saw her at 2:30...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That wasn`t until late in the afternoon.
ST. GEORGE: It was 2:30 in the afternoon, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes.
ST. GEORGE: Yes. There might have been something else that she did in the interim. But right now, there`s nothing pointing fingers at the husband, other than the fact that for some reason, he didn`t report it immediately. But it could be...
(CROSSTALK)
ST. GEORGE: They were having marital problems, Nancy. It might be that they weren`t communicating. This isn`t your typical good and healthy marriage. He may not have expected her to come right home. He was taking care of the kids at home, as far as we know.
GRACE: Second verse, same as the first. Again, he has not been named a suspect. But what I`m saying to you, Joe Lawless, is maybe if he had reported her missing at an earlier juncture, maybe her life would have been saved. I don`t want to pile on the guy tonight, but I`ve got a problem.
And no, he didn`t think she had somewhere else to go because her Louis Vuitton pocketbook was sitting in the car. They`ve got a BMW SUV and another BMW sitting out there in the driveway. He can go look if he`s worried about her. Her pocketbook`s sitting right there. No, she`s not going shopping. She`s not going to the movies or out to brunch with friends. No. She left the two little children there with him, according to him. Her pocketbook is sitting there. She goes out for a jog. Why doesn`t he report her? He never reported her, Joe Lawless. The friend reported her.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is there a question in there somewhere, Nancy?
GRACE: Yes, that was it. I`d like an answer.
LAWLESS: We have the tragedy of a dead woman and we have the typical suspect. Everybody looks at the husband. There`s no evidence the husband is involved in any way yet. Should he have reported her? I don`t know enough about it to know whether or not he was looking for her, whether she had somewhere to be he was aware of, whether they had a fight that morning and they weren`t talking.
I`ve gone jogging and my wife hasn`t seen me for four or five hours, doesn`t go looking for me. Is it bad? It`s bad because he`s the husband, and that`s the first person everybody looks at.
GRACE: Wait a minute.
LAWLESS: But right now...
GRACE: Wait. Wait. Wait.
LAWLESS: ... there`s no evidence of any...
GRACE: Back to Lawless. You`re telling me you`ve gone jogging and you`ve been gone for five hours, and your wife was not concerned?
LAWLESS: I`ve gone jogging and I`ve come home, and she hasn`t been there and our paths haven`t crossed all day on a Saturday. Now, maybe my wife...
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.
LAWLESS: ... doesn`t care about where I am...
GRACE: No, that`s not what I asked you.
LAWLESS: ... but that happens.
GRACE: I asked you -- you said you`ve been jogging for five hours...
LAWLESS: No, I`ve been jogging and we haven`t seen each other for extensive periods of time because I would come home, she would be gone. We`d be separated. That`s not that unusual.
GRACE: You know what?
LAWLESS: At this point...
GRACE: Those aren`t the facts in this case, though.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: The facts in -- I know this much. I know she left at 7:00 AM. At 2:30, she was still gone. Her pocketbook, with everything in it, is still sitting there at the home. He knows that.
LAWLESS: But we don`t know if the husband knew that. It`s sitting in a car. The husband could think it was with her.
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, let`s also keep in mind she`s training.
GRACE: With her jogging? Out to Nicole Partin, investigative reporter. Nicole, what more can you tell me about the facts?
PARTIN: One thing that we know, Nancy, is that according to her friends who jogged with her frequently, it was custom for her to drive to a local java -- a little bar, have some coffee, and then take a jog. Apparently, her husband, Brad, is stating that she left Saturday morning on foot. This was completely, completely out of cue (ph) for her. She always would drive to a local java cafe, and from there take a jogging course.
The purse is there. The vehicles are there. We know that on Saturday afternoon around 3:00 o`clock, you know, we hear that the friend becomes paranoid. The friend calls the husband and says, Do you know where she is? She would never stand me up. And at that point, the friend calls authorities.
We know that on Monday afternoon, there was a search warrant. The authorities did search both the car BMW, the SUV BMW, and did remove her Louis Vuitton purse from the car at that time.
Other than that, things are very suspicious. We don`t know what happened. We don`t know the cause of death. We don`t know anything that was found at the crime scene. We do know that her husband, Brad, did not show up, unexpectedly, for the press conference on Monday. Also, we know that was unexpected. Family members don`t really know what happened.
GRACE: Was the press conference before or after they had identified the body?
PARTIN: The press conference was after the body had been found, and the local authorities there were going to have this press conference to announce that a body had been discovered in the area of this woman`s home. Brad apparently said, I`ll be there shortly, and then later on did not show up. They didn`t know why.
GRACE: To Gurnal Scott with WPTF. Did he take part in the search?
SCOTT: He, I believe, was very cooperative with officers. Now, when the officers came to search his home...
GRACE: No, no, I`m sorry. Let me clarify.
SCOTT: Sure.
GRACE: The search for her.
SCOTT: As far as I know -- I`m not sure whether he was out and active in the search.
GRACE: OK.
SCOTT: I know he had the girls -- the little girls at home. He may have been staying with them.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about it, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, he was involved in the search after she was reported missing. But there was a great question today at the presser that they -- was asked of the police chief of Cary. And that was, Did he go out and look for her before she was reported missing, when she didn`t come home for five hours? And the police chief kind of stepped around it a little bit and said, Not initially, but he has been helping since she was reported missing.
But Nancy, he was also not present at the presser today. He was supposed to be there, but at the last minute opted out and decided not to come.
GRACE: Well, if he`s taking care of the kids, if he`s taking care of the two children, I could understand that, except for the fact that he had told the rest of her family he would be there. He also told police, Mike Brooks, that he had been searching for her by the lake. I don`t know if that is part of her regular jogging trail.
BROOKS: Yes.
GRACE: We already know that she is way off her routine. And I don`t know, Mike Brooks, but typically, when you`re training for a marathon or a race -- I know this is what I did and what everybody else that trains does that I know -- you have a system.
BROOKS: Right.
GRACE: You have a path or several paths that you take, and you have a system to train to do this thing. She had a system, and this was not part of it.
BROOKS: No, it wasn`t part of it, Nancy. You see the map on there. You see Lochmere Lake. There are trails around there that she used to run. In fact, the woman who reported her missing, Jessica Adam (ph), who was her good friend, she was also her running partner and they were training together. So you know, the husband said -- told police initially, Well, she went out with a friend jogging. Well, who was this friend? Because this was her regular running partner, the one who reported her missing.
And I also find it very interesting today that they said in the press conference that this is not a random act of violence. That says a lot to me.
GRACE: Well, I also find it interesting, Mike Brooks, that they say, We do not think that anyone dangerous is on the loose. Everybody, you`re safe. To me, that tells me that they have an idea that they know who the perp is.
BROOKS: Right. Exactly. They said it was an -- they called it an isolated incident. So we don`t have a spree killer. We don`t have a serial killer. And when they say not a random act of violence, that means that somebody didn`t snatch her off of her run.
And Nancy, we don`t even know if she really did run because they asked, What was she dressed in? They would not say whether or not she was in any kind of jogging clothes. So that -- we all -- these are all facts that they`re holding very, very close to the vest that have not been answered.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in South Carolina. Hi, Sandy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you kind of just sort of answered it, but is there proof that they -- she actually went out for the run on Saturday?
GRACE: I`ve been wondering the same thing. To you, Gurnal Scott with WPTF. I wanted to find out what she was wearing. Was she in her jogging clothes? That would have told me a lot. I also want to find out -- I know she went to a neighborhood get-together the night before. Was her husband with her, and did anyone see her after that, other than her husband?
SCOTT: That I don`t know. I know she did go to that gathering. And when the initial search was being held and the town officials listed what she was wearing, they said she was wearing a sort of a tank top, running shorts and blue running shoes. Those were the things that they put out to say, This is what we`re looking for. If you see someone wearing this, this is the person that we`re looking for. And now, as you`ve heard the other one say, basically, when they asked what was she wearing, they would not give up that information.
GRACE: So police would not reveal what she was wearing at the time her body was found?
SCOTT: That is correct.
GRACE: And Gurnal, how long did it take them to positively identify the remains as the missing mom?
SCOTT: The -- once the body was found on Monday evening, it was taken to the medical examiner`s office that evening, and it took the better part but not completely a day before the medical examiner in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, made the positive identification.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, medical examiner and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, it`s great to see you again, as always. Dr. Perper, what does it tell you that it took them so long to identify this as the missing mom?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I`m not sure that that`s the reason why they don`t disclose the information. This is a very initial stage of the investigation by the police which was started. And if it`s not a random case, then non-random indicates very clear who might be the culprit.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us from our Manhattan studios. Dr. Saunders, weigh in.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, the -- one of the reporters said that the neighbor was paranoid and called 911. Maybe the neighbor knew something. You know, we know that 30 percent of women who are murdered are killed by their intimate partners and that the most dangerous time is during separation. It could be an estrangement homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know that our family is missing a spoke, and while that wheel is now forever changed, it`s incumbent on us to doubt (ph), so we may continue to spin. Nancy is a mother, a daughter and a sister, and that`s how we`ll keep her alive in our hearts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The area where Nancy was found has been treated as a crime scene since she was discovered around 7:30 PM last night. At this hour, we still have not named a suspect or a person of interest. As you can imagine, this is a terrible blow to all of us who feel that we have grown to know and care for Nancy and her family. We are appalled and outraged by this terrible tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A lot of unanswered questions tonight in the case of the missing mom. As we go to air, it is positively identified the remains of the jogger found near an undeveloped retention pond, not a part of her regular jogging path.
Straight back out to Nicole Partin, investigative reporter. How old are her two little girls?
PARTIN: Her children, Nancy, are ages are 2 and 4, very young, very beautiful. And again, a tragic loss that both a mother, a dear friend, a wife, a daughter. We also know that she has an identical twin. Her family from Canada has flown in, of course, and they are now in North Carolina. But a tragic loss.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Lena in Tennessee. Hi, Lena.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, God, I`ve got several questions on this.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My first situation (ph) here is, according to the husband, she left that morning and just said, I`m going out for a jog with a friend. She didn`t say who the friend was. And then secondly, has anybody checked her cell phone? Did he call her? Did any of the girlfriends call her? What`s going on with that?
GRACE: OK. To Gurnal Scott. I understood that he then later amended his story and said she said she was with a friend named Carrie (ph), but he didn`t know who that was.
SCOTT: That we did hear, and police are still investigating that, trying to figure out exactly what he meant by that. But as far as...
GRACE: Maybe I`m crazy, Gurnal, but is it open to interpretation? He said she went with a friend named Carrie. What do you mean, what did he mean by that?
SCOTT: I`m sorry?
GRACE: I don`t understand. What`s there to interpret? What`s there to figure out what he meant by that? I don`t get it.
SCOTT: Well, I mean, that is part of the investigation. I don`t know exactly what he meant by that or who he meant that she was going out with. But police are definitely looking at any kind of situation what he`s going to say about where she was and that...
GRACE: Nicole, do you know if she had her -- if anyone tried to contact her on her cell phone? And do you know anything about this mysterious Carrie that she allegedly went running with?
PARTIN: Right. We don`t know anything about her cell phone. There`s been no information released about that. We do know that Ms. Adams, the friend she was to meet, apparently, when she called the husband and the husband said she`s gone with this Carrie, she says, Ms. Adams says, I`ve heard of a Carrie, not sure who she is, don`t have a phone number on her, have no idea if she`s really with her. So it`s kind of mysterious, this Carrie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s overwhelming. It`s hard to get your head around. Unbelievable, really. She`s a great person in the community. She`s very outgoing, athletic, very friendly. A lot of people know her. A lot of people have come out just because they recognize her picture. The thing I think of is, if this happened to anybody else, Nancy would be out here just as much, helping to look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to thank all the hundreds of volunteers that came out and are continuing to come out. And if anyone knows anything, I just want them to contact the police with any information they may have. And again, thank you to everyone that continues to come out to help out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is the husband of the missing mom speaking out. He is not a suspect in this case, has not been named a person of interest.
Out to the lines. Carol in Michigan. Hi, Carol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, I want to congratulate you on the twins. I think they`re beautiful.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you are, too. And I just want to know, has there been any, like, domestic abuses? I bet her friend knows a little more than what they`re saying, that -- you know, that she`s talked to.
GRACE: What about it, Nicole Partin? What do we know?
PARTIN: We don`t know of anything of any abuse. Nothing like that has came out as yet. We do know that the dinner party that she attended the night before she was missing on Friday evening was at a neighbor`s house. Someone at that dinner party mentioned that she looked bad, and she said that she was just feeling rough (ph). Other than that, we don`t know anything.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live.
When we get back: Mommy and Daddy head to a local bar to party inside, but forget something, their baby, locked in the car for hours on end.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Around 2:30 Sunday morning, a Carson police officer found a 5-month-old infant crying in the vehicle with the windows rolled up and the doors locked.
The parents were in this bar, Chapala, and left the infant alone for over three hours. Carson Police say it`s lucky this small infant wasn`t left inside of a hot parked car during the middle of the day. Otherwise things could have turned out much differently.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: After a spate of children dying in overheated cars, now this story. Mom and dad inside partying hardy in a bar while their child is locked in the car for hours on end.
Straight out to Nicole Partin, what`s the latest?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: What we know, Nancy, as you stated, the couple had gone into a bar, left this young 5-month-old child. Thankfully, an officer was responding to another call in the area and heard the child crying, found this child in the back seat of the car, windows rolled up, doors locked. Found him crying. Removed the child.
Fortunately, the child is OK. He has been -- or she has been placed in state`s custody at this time.
GRACE: And to Tavia Green, crime reporter with the "Leaf-Chronicle," joining us from Clarksville, what about Faith Nichols, just 3 months old?
TAVIA GREEN, CRIME & COURTS REPORTER, THE LEAF-CHRONICLE: Well, Nancy, the outrage in that is just days before Faith Nichols was found dead -- a 3-month-old baby girl found dead. She was found in the back seat of her mother`s car who went bar hopping throughout the day and left her child in 90-degree weather.
GRACE: Tell me about where the mom went in the Faith Nichols story.
GREEN: Well, the mom parked her car next door at a gas station and went to a bar. Throughout the day she bar-hopped at several other bars before she came back and checked on the child who was already dead.
GRACE: I understand she left the baby in the car at 10:15 in the morning -- in the morning.
GREEN: That`s correct. And she came back at 5:00. They say temperatures probably reached as much as 115 to 150 degrees in the car.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, medical examiner, what does it do physically to a child to be left in a car that way?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, what happened is that the temperature can raise very fast even in the low 90, they can reach it in 20 minutes, 125 within 40 minutes, 145 degrees.
And really, within minutes after that, the child can have either irreversible brain damage or die. And unfortunately, we see those cases repeating themselves throughout the country.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Rica in Kentucky, hi, Rica.
RICA, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
RICA: My question is what kind of charges will the parents have and will they get the child back?
GRACE: Nicole, what are the charges?
PARTIN: We know that each parent has been charged with one count of child abuse and neglect. At this point, it`s uncertain as to whether the child will be given back to them or not.
GRACE: What about Faith Nichols? That child is dead.
PARTIN: Right. Faith has been charged with first degree murder and she`s being held without bond at this time.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I tell you what, Nancy, we have this many incidents in one county. What`s wrong with the people living in that county? Do they have to have a public service announcements? Don`t leave your kids locked in the car?
These people are idiots. You know it`s a shame that we even have to have a Kidsincars.org. What does that say about our society? It`s just unbelievable to me.
GRACE: And speaking of Kidsincars.org, joining us is the president and founder, Janette Fennell.
Thank you for being with us, Janette. What`s the number one reason parents leave kids in cars?
JANETTE FENNELL, PRES. AND FOUNDER, KIDSANDCARS.ORG: Well, in cases like this, it`s pretty obvious. They`re putting their own convenience much higher on the level of importance than the safety of their children.
I mean, what are these people thinking when they leave a child completely alone, a helpless child alone in a hot vehicle for that amount of time?
GRACE: So the number one reason is convenience?
FENNELL: Well, yes, they want to do what they want to do, and they think it`s OK. We`ll just leave the child in the car. They`re in a child safety seat, they`ll be OK.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.
ANN, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You are absolutely adorable.
I just want to say, I was the child that was left in the car in the parking lot of the bar with my younger siblings. And I know that these parents do not think clearly when they`re making these decisions. I know what I`ve had to battle growing up with that, having to be the parent thing.
And I was just wondering what the psychologists have to say if they see a lot of this. The ones who aren`t caught and live through it?
GRACE: What about it, Dr. Saunders?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, we know that substance abuse is correlated with about a third of cases of child abuse and neglect. We don`t know that these people are substance abusing, but they sure spend a lot of time in the bar.
What`s more concerned is the self involvement, the ignorance that children and babies are not little adults who can just nod off in a car. They overlook or don`t even know about, one, the vulnerability of children and how easy it is for them to die.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Joe lawless, out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, and Carmen St. George, out of New York.
To Joe lawless, you know, the other day I was pushing the twins in New York and it was hot. We were gone for about an hour. I got so worried when I brought them in. They were red in the face. They just looked hot. I held them like two footballs and ran and jumped into the tub, fully clothed, filling it up with cool water and just put them in there.
Then, of course, I was worried about them going underwater because we cover those stories, too. So I held them the whole time trying to get water on them to cool them off. I`m not a doctor, but I know that much.
My point is, these children need to be totally taken away from the parents. Stupidity is not a defense under the law, Joe Lawless.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": No, I don`t think it is and when you hear stories like Faith Nichols or this other couple, and you hear they`re going into a bar, I think we`re talking about addiction problems.
I think Dr. Saunders was right. When you hear somebody goes into a bar for five hours, leaves their kids in the car, that`s an alcoholic. That`s someone with a drinking problem. That`s someone with an addiction who`s not thinking.
I can`t come up with any reason why they shouldn`t be separated from the children at least until they can prove to the satisfaction of a judge they`re capable of getting ahold of what their problem is. That would take some convincing before I would let them have the child back because it`s just far too precious a thing to risk.
GRACE: Well, Carmen St. George, bottom line, no offense, anybody, but if they`re that stupid, why would you ever want to give the kids back to them?
LAWLESS: Well, what`s.
GRACE: I mean what`s the next thing they`re going to do, Carmen?
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because, Nancy, you know, parents have a fundamental right for the care of their children. And what happens is in order for those children.
GRACE: But there`s not any care.
ST. GEORGE: Yes.
GRACE: There`s not any care, Carmen St. George.
ST. GEORGE: You know.
GRACE: They`re not caring for them.
ST. GEORGE: Nancy, in this particular case, I mean, why didn`t they pay baby-sitters and go and have a drink, right? But I think, you know, perhaps the baby was crying because it needed to be fed after 3 1/2 hours of being left in a car.
Yes, parental rights can be terminated, but under very egregious circumstances. And you know, Nancy, these parents have only at this time being charged with neglect and abuse, not the aggravated form of that.
LAWLESS: How much more egregious can it be, though? This is about as egregious as it gets?
ST. GEORGE: Well, a more egregious.
GRACE: And let me remind you is there is also the other charge where a 3-year-old child is left in the car while mom starts bar-hopping at 10:15 in the morning.
LAWLESS: That`s alcoholism.
GRACE: And that baby died.
LAWLESS: That`s alcoholism.
GRACE: So?
ST. GEORGE: And that`s the more egregious circumstance, Nancy. That`s where.
GRACE: I don`t really care if it`s because she has an alcohol problem. I care about.
ST. GEORGE: Exactly.
GRACE: . the dead baby. She can.
LAWLESS: Yes.
GRACE: She`s an adult. She can go deal with her alcohol problem. It`s too late for the baby.
Out to the lines, Rosita in Wisconsin. Hi, Rosita.
ROSITA, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
ROSITA: My question is, how many babies are they going to let die before they set laws where these parents get at least one to two years in prison?
GRACE: Mike Brooks, is jail time the answer? I say yes.
BROOKS: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. Jail time and they never see their kids again, period.
You know, this whole addiction, that`s all well and good. But it comes a time when you`re either stupid or you`re not, period.
GRACE: You know, in this case, though, with the mom with the 3-month- old that died, I know that there is a murder charge against her right now. But what do you want to bet, Mike Brooks, they`ll plead it down to voluntary -- involuntary because the victim was a baby?
BROOKS: Oh, absolutely. And then there`ll be some other defense of the mother did have an addiction problem, she`s an alcoholic.
You know, I`m not buying it, Nancy. She should do jail time and she should do a lot of jail time.
GRACE: Well, and another thing, remember, she didn`t start of at a bar. She started off at Dodge`s Chicken Store then she went to a bar. Guess what.
BROOKS: Yes, that`s where they found the baby with 103.8 temperature.
GRACE: Yes.
BROOKS: And she died at Dodge`s Chicken Store. That`s disgusting.
GRACE: Everybody, quick break but as we go to break we are taking your calls live.
And a special happy birthday to veteran defense lawyer Sandy Schiff. As you know, she is in the fight of a lifetime, not in court, but her battle with leukemia. Let me ask you again to, please, offer up your prayers and good thoughts for her.
And, Sandy, I know you`re listening. Please come back soon, happy birthday.
Also tonight, Carmen Mollusk, 28 weeks with twins, never misses the show, ordered to bed rest.
Carmen, keep the faith, friend. And I promise you, it will be worth it.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, KIDANDCARS.ORG)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry, mommy took so long, sweetie. Did you have a good time listening to your tape? Here you go, baby. Mommy got you a treat. What`s the matter? Sweetie? Look at mommy. Look at mommy, sweetie.
Sweetie, what`s the matter! Somebody help me! Baby, talk to mommy. Somebody please help me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For the sixth time this year, a child has been left inside a hot car in Montgomery County, Tennessee. The latest victim, a 5-month-old infant that was left in a vehicle alone for at least 3 1/2 hours while the parents were allegedly inside the local bar.
The baby was found by a police officer who was there on an unrelated matter and later found the parents inside the bar. Both parents were booked on child abuse and neglect charges and face a couple years in jail.
Police say the child was left from at least 11:00 p.m. to 2:20 a.m. by itself in the Chevy Silverado with the truck`s windows up and doors locked.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: I don`t know if that PSA made you feel the way it made me feel, but to Janette Fennell with -- she`s the president and founder of Kidsandcars.org.
You know, that`s just a reenactment. That`s just a reenactment of what these children go through and the parents go through when they find out. You know, you`ve done so much research.
Why does this continue to happen, Janette?
FENNELL: Well, I don`t think people really realize the danger they`re putting their children in when they leave them alone in the vehicle. I mean, in that same city, in that same county, you`ve got people that are going to a tanning bed -- I mean, several people have been arrested because they`re going to get a tan and they leave their child alone in a vehicle.
I think this country needs to look at leaving a child alone in a vehicle in the same way that they`ve been educated about leaving children around a pool or around a body of water.
You never do it. You don`t turn your back for one second because anything can happen. And until people realize it`s the same amount of danger, these things are going to continue to happen.
But as I said before, you can`t put your own convenience ahead of the safety of your children.
GRACE: And look at all the children to the left of your screen, everybody. We`re showing you one child after the next that has died from being left in a hot car.
With us tonight, Janette Fennell from -- she`s the president and founder of Kidsandcars.org.
Straight back out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hey, you need to be nominated for best mom in the world. Really good.
GRACE: I really appreciate that, but the day they came in, their faces were red. They just looked hot.
SHEEBA: They were.
GRACE: And then, of course, I was afraid to leave them in the bathtub. Anyway, it`s a long story. But go ahead. What`s your question?
SHEEBA: OK, my -- I`ve got a two-part question.
GRACE: OK.
SHEEBA: Is there a chance that they`ve probably done this before, like even in the wintertime? And my second question is, do they have more children at home? And any of these people, the two you`re talking about, military? Because Ft. Campbell is right there.
GRACE: Good question.
Nicole Partin, do they have other children, either of these two stories, and are they military?
PARTIN: It`s not known that they have other children. The Montgomery County Police Department could not verify that for us. And as far as we know, they are not in any way involved in the military.
GRACE: I can hardly stand to look over at the screen at all these little children that died in hot cars. So easily avoidable.
Do we know, Tavia Green, with the "Leaf-Chronicle," whether this had happened before with these parents?
GREEN: Well, Nancy, that`s a great question but law officials are still investigating that. And there should be more details in both of those cases.
GRACE: Tavia, do we know if either couple, if either of the two cases have other children?
GREEN: Those facts have not been verified as of now. So, no, we do not know that at this point.
GRACE: I`m sure we`ll find out.
Out to the lines, Joel in Georgia. Hi, Joel.
JOEL, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
JOEL: Well, the one mother faced first-degree murder charge.
GRACE: Yes.
JOEL: Now, is it possible that the other couple -- or can you even do such as this in a case like this -- can a couple or a parent face, first, attempted murder or something like that?
GRACE: Yes, they can.
Out to Mike Brooks, what about it?
BROOKS: They should be able to be charged with attempted murder because what did this he do? They neglected their children and they almost murdered their child. And, you know, and the icing on the cake on this whole thing, Nancy, this couple apparently -- were allegedly in this country illegally to begin with.
GRACE: You really know how to put the icing on the cake, don`t you?
Let`s go out to the lawyers, Joe Lawless, Carmen St. George, I guess you`re going to argue, Carmen, that there`s no way for an attempted murder charge to work.
ST. GEORGE: Where is the intent to kill, Nancy? There`s not. Based on these facts, they were stupid. They had poor judgment. And that`s what you have. You have a 20-year-old mother and a 20-year-old father here. They exercised bad judgment, and that`s what you got.
GRACE: OK. You know what, Joe Lawless, again, let me repeat. Felony stupidity is not a defense.
LAWLESS: No.
GRACE: So it`s not the intent to kill that must be proven at trial. The intent to do the act. The law presumes you intend the natural consequences of your act.
If I throw China down on cement, the law presumes I mean to break the China dish. You leave your kid in a 90-degree car for several hours the law presumes what? You mean to bake the kid.
LAWLESS: That was.
ST. GEORGE: Not a presumption to kill.
LAWLESS: That would be the theory.
GRACE: Joe?
LAWLESS: That would be the theory that the prosecution would have to pursue. Could they prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? I don`t think so. I don`t think attempted murder is an appropriate charge here.
GRACE: I do.
LAWLESS: Is it a serious crime? Should they go to jail if they`re convicted? Absolutely. But I can draw a real distinction between someone who negligently does something dumb and someone who goes out and tries to beat someone over the head with a basketball bat.
It`s a question of degree and what you should charge someone with.
GRACE: To Larry in Georgia, hi, Larry. What`s your question?
LARRY, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hey, how you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
LARRY: That`s great. The caller before, is it proven a fact they are illegal into this country, the mother and father?
GRACE: Is it a proven fact, yes, they are illegals.
Did you have a follow up on that, Larry? OK. Lost Larry.
Everybody, we`ll be right back. We are taking your calls live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t put somebody in a rig and leave them there without any supervision. They`re being more (INAUDIBLE). They get a call in a certain area that they look at the vehicle parked around, because it`s getting to be an ongoing thing here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There could be a memorial like this one remembering a 3-month-old baby named Faith. Less than a week ago, police say the small child died after being left in a hot car while the mother was inside a bar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: It`s one of a string of infant deaths in hot cars.
Out to the lines, to Michelle in Nevada. Hi, Michelle.
MICHELLE, NEVADA RESIDENT: Hi. How are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
MICHELLE: I have a question and a solution. I live in the desert. I hear of this frequently out here. Why do they not put a question on the DMV test that you have to get for your driver`s license to drive on how long should you leave a child or pet in the car?
And if you know the answer and you do it anyways, then it`s premeditated murder. And if you do not know the answer, then you should not be able to drive. Therefore, again, it`s premeditated murder. Then they can be fully prosecuted the full extent of the law.
GRACE: Michelle, brilliant.
MICHELLE: Excuse me?
GRACE: Brilliant.
What about it, Pat Saunders?
SAUNDERS: It`s so on, I really like that. And I think it`s so important that getting this out to people, Nancy, because people do not think enough when it comes to their children.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Air Force Sergeant Christopher Frost, 24, (INAUDIBLE), Wisconsin, killed, Iraq on the second tour. Upbeat, friendly, great sense of humor, loved writing. Wanted to be a photo journalist. Leaves behind parents Gary and Bridgette, brother John, wife Ashley, two young children, daughter McKenzie, son Mitchell.
Christopher Frost, American hero.
Thanks to our guest, but especially to you for being with us.
And tonight, happy birthday to one of the stars of our shows, Rupa Mikkilineni.
Happy birthday, Rupa.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
