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Nancy Grace
Man Threatens to Jump From Senate Building/Caylee`s Grandmother Says Jailed Mom Knows Where She Is
Aired July 21, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old little Florida girl after grandparents report her missing. It`s a story that has become more and more convoluted. We now learn Caylee hasn`t been seen in five long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why, why didn`t Mommy call police? Breaking developments as we go to air. Where is 2-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 2-year-old girl missing for a month before her mother reports it. Now Mom`s in jail, and grandma says her daughter knows who has Caylee. So why doesn`t she tell the cops?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that it`s someone very close to Casey that she`s known for a period of time. At least three or four years she`s known this person and has trusted Caylee with this person in the past. I think Casey has been betrayed. This person that, you know, thinks that they`re doing the right thing by, you know, taking Caylee, that they`re not doing the right thing because Caylee is confused. Caylee is scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, that doesn`t even make any sense.
Also tonight, double murder in the heartland, two precious school girls brutally murdered off an isolated county back road. Investigators reveal not one but two separate guns used in the shootings. Translation, two cold-blooded killers walking the streets. Just released, the heart- wrenching 911 call. We have that audiotape. Who killed little Taylor and Skyla?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Okfuskee County 911. State your emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody`s killed two girls over -- my daughter -- my grandbaby and my -- my -- her daughter -- friend -- I`m on County Line Road!
911 OPERATOR: What happened, now, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know! They went for a walk, and they`re both down here dead!
911 OPERATOR: They`re down there dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re dead~!
911 OPERATOR: Your granddaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and my -- her friend!
911 OPERATOR: OK. Where`s this at, ma`am? Stay calm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m on County Line Road.
911 OPERATOR: Which county line?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Off Bryant Road!
911 OPERATOR: Off Bryant Road?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, going toward Coleman (ph) Road. Oh, my God! I`m having a -- I don`t know. Help me, please!
911 OPERATOR: OK, ma`am. I need you to stay calm so we can get out there to you, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Let me pull up my map and try to find out where you`re at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Route 1, off 185.
911 OPERATOR: OK, we can`t look them up with the routes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, please, please, please, please, please! Lord, help me, please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. Just stay on the line with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, God! Oh, God! Oh, God! Oh, God! My God! My God! My baby!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They didn`t want this 911 tape to be released at first. We went back to them last week and said, What do you think about releasing a portion of it now? And they said, If it will help this case, let`s do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We want justice for little Taylor and Skyla.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, little Caylee, missing, and a story that becomes more and more convoluted by the moment. We knew that Caylee was not seen for five long weeks, last seen with her mommy. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Breaking developments as we go to air. Where is 2-year-old Caylee?
But before we take you live to Florida and the case of Caylee Anthony, breaking news on Capitol Hill, police on the scene at the Hart Senate Office Building, a man now threatening to jump of a seventh floor ledge. As you can see, there`s a lot of confusion there right now. The offices have been closed down. They have now brought in an interpreter and a negotiator.
I want to go straight out to our guests. Joining me right now is Wally Zeins, former hostage negotiator with the NYPD. What should be happening right now, Wally?
WALLY ZEINS, FORMER HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR, NYPD: Well, right now, the hostage negotiator should be developing a rapport with the person that we would call an EDP, an emotionally disturbed person. What they want to do in a case like this is they want to be able to get a dialogue going, get a -- come on the same level with the person that`s on the ledge. Now, if there`s any communication problems, the hostage negotiator will talk to the interpreter. He won`t let the interpreter talk to the person on the ledge because he`s establishing a rapport. A case like this with an EDP, they`re usually the longest ones. They usually take a long time because the person who`s on the ledge has a message. He has a statement and wasn`t being spoken to by anyone or listened to by anybody.
GRACE: Well, that`s interesting you would say that, Wally, because he has certainly picked a unique location to commit suicide.
To Neal Augenstein with WTOP. Neal, what can you tell us?
NEAL AUGENSTEIN, WTOP RADIO: Well, I just spoke a few minutes ago with Terrance Gainer, who`s the former Capitol Police chief and who`s now the sergeant-at-arms for the Senate. Chief Gainer says that in the past few minutes, the man does seem to have calmed down. Gainer says that the officials on Capitol Hill are familiar with the man, although he wasn`t specific in how they were familiar with him, and that the man had been on the Hill before. Gainer says that he hopes that the situation will be resolved peacefully, without the man hurting himself or anyone else. Capitol Police have scheduled a news conference for this hour. It`s been pushed back a little bit. But of course, we should hear more information when they actually speak.
GRACE: Now, is he actually on the same floor as the offices for Barack Obama?
AUGENSTEIN: It`s not clear exactly where the man is. I think that police are trying to keep that vague because it doesn`t help them to have people shooting pictures of the man or trying in any way to get in touch with him.
GRACE: What are they doing? Are they trying to get him to come down? Is he posing any type of a security threat to anyone else in the building?
AUGENSTEIN: I`m not clear exactly whether he`s attempted to hurt anybody but himself. My sense is that he has not. When speaking with Chief Gainer, who`s always been straightforward with me, the impression was that the only person who was at risk was the man himself.
GRACE: I want to go out to Dr. Robi Ludwig. Why choose this location? Dr. Robi, if he waited for them to get -- to dig up a Chinese interpreter, what makes me think he`s about to jump?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, yes, it sounds like he`s serious. But also, every person that is attempting suicide is going to be mildly ambivalent. So it is interesting that he chose a public place, where there is the possibility for somebody to stop him from actually suiciding. So it sounds like the ambivalence is getting the best of him, and hopefully, it will save him in the end.
GRACE: Back to Neal Augenstein with WTOP. When did it start?
AUGENSTEIN: Within the last hour or so, a release came out from Capitol Police that the situation was ongoing. They immediately said that the area -- the 7th floor in the Hart atrium would be restricted to emergency personnel only.
GRACE: Now, you mentioned the 7th floor. It`s no longer vague. We know it`s the 7th floor, and it`s my understanding that that is the same location of Lieberman, Benjamin Nelson, Barack Obama, Jack Reid, Specter, all right there on the 7th floor. Is that not correct?
AUGENSTEIN: Well, I`m not sure exactly where -- which office this man is anywhere near, but I guess that -- and police have not specified any motive in any way. So we`ll find out that information, hopefully, during the news conference.
GRACE: Wally, about how high up is that? Would it be a fatal leap?
ZEINS: Absolutely. It`s 70 feet or more. And keep in mind, this is something that will stay for a while. The person has a statement. Emotionally disturbed people, they want media attention. They want to get their statement out. And the positive side of this is that the longer it takes, the better chances a successful ending will take place.
GRACE: And back to Neal Augenstein. Did they close down the building?
AUGENSTEIN: No. There was no evacuations, just the area involved has been closed down.
GRACE: OK. We`ll take you straight back to the Senate building as soon as we found out more. We do know an interpreter has been called in. Right now, a man threatening to leap to his death right there inside the Senate billing.
Let`s switch to our Florida story and the search for little Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators focus their attention on this parking lot at East Colonial Drive and Goldenrod Road. Deputies say Caylee`s mother, Casey, abandoned her white 1998 Pontiac, much like this one, in the parking lot. Eyewitness News has learned there might have been evidence indicating there was a body in the car, a stench.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The story becomes more and more convoluted by the minute. And as we go to air, we learn a significant development in the story, the search for little 2-year-old Caylee. Take a look at this little girl. Who would want to hurt this little angel? Look at her. She is precious.
We now learn the grandmother, who has been with us, was with us last week, has been all over the media in her efforts to try to find her little granddaughter, is now saying she`s ready to forgive her daughter for whatever she did wrong.
Out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. What`s happening?
RORY O`NEILL, METRO NETWORKS: Well, as of today, the police have spent today really regrouping because over the weekend, they gave up on the dig in the back yard of the family home, perhaps looking for evidence. So today was a bunch of old-fashioned police work and going back and looking at all the phone calls, the clues that have developed with the tip line over the past week, really, and trying to find out where Caylee is.
GRACE: Well, Rory, it`s my understanding that the mom, who I thought, according to the grandmother, took the little girl to go bonding (ph) -- she was living there with her mother. She`s been gone for about five weeks or so, with the little girl, her daughter, and then the grandmother says, Where`s Caylee? Now, here`s the mom. She`s being held right now behind bars. It`s my understanding, Rory, she refuses to name who has the little girl?
O`NEILL: She has bee -- she`s had no conversations with police since her arrest. And this is really one of the things that her attorney is most upset about. He wants -- because the charges have been filed, he says any statements could be used against her, so now he has offered police to act as the go-between between his client and the police so that they can find...
GRACE: Well, you know what...
O`NEILL: ... better description...
GRACE: That`s really funny. Out to the lawyers. We`re talking your calls live. To Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction, and Doug Burns, the veteran defense attorney out of New York. To you Anne Bremner. Why does she need a go-between? Why can`t she just tell police where the little girl is?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s a long way from a lie to life in prison, and anything she says to the police can be used against her and she`s smart to have a go-between. If they really want to look for this little girl, that`s one thing. If they want to implicate her, that`s quite another.
GRACE: So are you telling me with that answer, Anne Bremner, that you believe the mother is responsible for the little girl`s death?
BREMNER: Absolutely not. I think that...
GRACE: Well, then, what you said doesn`t even make any sense.
BREMNER: Well, because -- no, because everyone`s trying to say that this girl`s dead and the mother`s responsible, and that`s why it`s all over the national news.
GRACE: Yes. Well, that`s not what I asked you.
BREMNER: It could be a totally different explanation.
GRACE: I asked you, if you want to help find your daughter, why do you have to use a go-between?
BREMNER: Because she is being accused of something far more sinister, something like a homicide, and they`re not believing here when she`s saying she can help. That`s why.
GRACE: Doug Burns, from what I`m just hearing from Anne Bremner -- Anne, you need to run on down to Florida right now because, you know, you`re on the bandwagon. That doesn`t even make any sense to me, Doug Burns. If you want to find your daughter...
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: ... why wouldn`t you talk to police, tell them what you know?
BURNS: Well, this thing`s apples and oranges. She has been locked up for obstruction of justice and not helping out.
GRACE: Yes?
BURNS: This is a situation of some type of bizarre -- I`m theorizing -- problem between the mother and the grandmother, and something really bizarre took place, and the mother doesn`t want to say what it is. And she`s behind bars.
GRACE: OK. Straight back out to Rory O`Neill. Let me tie down some facts. Number one, I understand that the mother, Casey, borrowed the neighbor`s shovel. Why?
O`NEILL: Well, the family had explained that because there are bamboo shoots that grow up in the backyard, the shovel was frequently used to dig them up. The bamboo shoots would hurt little baby Caylee`s feet. So they were often frequently dug up, and that Casey went next door to borrow the shovel. Police seized the shovel. That`s what -- it was a two-day search of the back yard. They dug up parts of the back yard and found absolutely nothing.
GRACE: And Rory, it is also my understanding that the mom, Casey, says that she received a call from the person that has the little girl recently and she actually spoke to the little girl. Have police looked at her cell phone records? Have they tried to trace that call?
O`NEILL: Well, that`s the sort of gumshoe work that`s taking place today. That story really just came to light because it was the grandmother who said that she witnessed that phone call. And police over the weekend said, really, this was new information for them. So they`re trying pin down the exact date that phone call may have taken place. And the conversation was along the lines of, Caylee, put an adult on the phone, and then, click, the phone went dead. So it was a very brief conversation, and police are trying to track that down.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, the other night, I spoke personally with the grandmother. I didn`t hear anything about that phone call. I asked her, When was the last time you saw Caylee? What`s the last contact you had? I don`t recall anything about a phone call where the phone went dead.
MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: No, nor neither do I, Nancy.
GRACE: Weren`t you here with me that night?
KLAAS: Yes, I was. No, absolutely. I was hearing a lot of things, none of which made sense. I still have no idea what the story of this thing is, where Casey has been for the last five weeks, why she`s lying to everybody. And I think probably the worst possible thing that can happen right now is for this lawyer of hers to put himself in the middle of this investigation.
If the goal really is to find the little girl, then that individual should allow law enforcement to interrogate her with him present, if he needs that. But he`s serving a secondary goal. His goal is to somehow protect Casey, when the overarching goal of this entire investigation is to find Caylee. The way he`s positioned this, he`s making her look more and more guilty every minute.
GRACE: And the other thing we heard, Marc Klaas -- or reporters discovered that they were searching Casey`s vehicle, that there was a horrible stench in the vehicle. There was also a child seat in the car. Apparently, nothing has turned up. It was not hit on by cadaver dogs, so that led to nowhere. I also don`t understand why this woman abandoned her car. In the midst of this five-week odyssey, she abandons her car.
Out to the lines. Liz, in Florida. Hi, Liz.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad I get to talk to you.
GRACE: Thank you for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. What is wrong with the grandmother? Can she not get through to her daughter about where that child is?
GRACE: I don`t...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does the grandmother know where she is?
GRACE: I don`t know. And I spoke with the grandmother and the more I asked her about Casey, the less she would answer me. She wanted her appearance to be all about searching for Caylee. And I understand that, but maybe she is getting a -- running into a dead end, just like police are.
Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. I believe the grandmother has tried everything she could. She had the daughter and the granddaughter living with her, Casey and Caylee. They left for a period of weeks, allegedly to go out of town. Then no sign of Caylee. Now, what can you tell me about abandoning the car?
O`NEILL: Well, this is where it gets funny because there seems to be -- every time there`s something that`s suspicious that comes up, there`s an automatic excuse. The stench in the back of the car? That was a rotten pizza. The shovel for the back yard? That was the bamboo shoots. And now for the car that was abandoned, it ran out of gas. So there`s always something that seems to follow with the -- every time the hairs on the back of your neck go up. So it`s just a series of coincidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will walk every inch of this earth and open every door and knock on every door, and I will look in every nook and cranny until I find her!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey couldn`t tell me or couldn`t feel that she could tell me that something had gone awry, that on a normal day that she was going to take her to this person that she always trusted Caylee in, and then she goes back and the person`s not there. And for whatever reason, you know, she feels it`s in Caylee`s best interests right now not to reveal who that person is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Then why all the lies to police, even about innocent facts like where she was working? Isn`t it correct, Marc Klaas, that they were supposed to go to this woman, the mother, Casey`s, job -- I believe it was Epcot -- and they get all the way there -- she`s sticking to the lie. They out of the car. They start walking to her job. They get all the way up to the door and she goes, Hey, you know what? I don`t really work here anymore. I was fired.
KLAAS: Yes.
GRACE: I mean, on every avenue, not just the job, there`s been a lie that she extends for quite a period of time until finally she`s busted. She goes, OK, I was lying. Do you believe anything she says?
KLAAS: Well, the thing is, Nancy, that Casey has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, and anything that she tells law enforcement means they have to follow up on it to see if they can verify it one way or the other. So certainly, it`s in her best interests to be telling the truth. But I think what the police have to do now is they have to find out where she`s been. Again, it`s more secrets. There are secrets. Everybody`s keeping secrets. Find out where she`s been for the past five weeks and then start verifying her actions from that point.
GRACE: Can`t they figure that out by pinging her cell phone, John Lucich? Can`t you figure all that out?
JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Oh, absolutely. That data`s out there, and it`s all going to depend on what records the networks are actually keeping. But there`s so many things that -- you know, she`s leading these people down the wrong road. Everything she says is a lie. The only thing going forward -- you know, in my heart of hearts, I hope this little girl`s alive. But the longer this goes on, the more it means this little girl`s dead. And the only time you could believe her is when she brings the police to this little girl`s body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Caylee was with her family, this is what she enjoyed doing the most, reading a book. The Anthony family is hoping that if people see this newly released video, someone will have a better chance of recognizing the child, who will be 3 years old next month.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s the brightest little star. She has the most amount of energy. She is -- she`s extremely curious. She is somebody that -- boy, how she can just figure things out. She is a very smart little girl, and it`s just -- it`s -- we can attribute that to the way that she`s been brought up by my sister.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you have any information on this little girl, please, please call the tip line. It`s 800-423-TIPS, 423-8477. There`s also www.Helpfindcaylee.com.
Out to the lines. To Karen in Florida. Hi, Karen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, when they took the mother into custody, why didn`t they interrogate her right away before she was able to get an attorney?
GRACE: Rory O`Neill, joining us from Metro Networks, it`s my understanding they did interrogate her. Hint -- leading them on this wild goose chase over to Universal Studios -- that`s where it was that she said she worked -- and many other things that were all lies, Rory.
O`NEILL: Right. They spoke to her for almost a full day before they finally gave up and said, Look, we`ve gotten so much misinformation, we have to resort now to charging you with endangering a child, as well as obstruction of justice and other charges related to delaying this investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD`S GRANDMOTHER: If Casey cannot trust the authorities with the truth then the people have to find Caylee so that we can sort the truth out after Caylee has been found.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The grandmother of missing 2-year-old Florida girl says her daughter knows who has the toddler and should be released from jail. So she can help with the investigation.
Casey Anthony was arrested last week and charged with child neglect and criminal obstruction for allegedly lying to detectives. She told them she`d dropped 2-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony off with a babysitter last month but hasn`t seen her since.
Caylee`s grandmother says she last saw the little girl on June 9th. Investigators are following up on a few leads including the mother`s claim she had received a mysterious call from her daughter last Tuesday.
Investigators say it`s possible Caylee is still alive.
ANTHONY: I know in my heart she`s alive and I know in my heart that Casey feels that she`s alive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: This is absolutely outrageous. This little girl may still be alive, but mommy, who is in lock up right now, will not cooperate with police.
Now our sources tell us that the lawyer -- her defense lawyer keeps saying we want to talk to police.
Well, guess what, the cops tell us they have called her lawyer repeatedly and do not get a return phone call. That`s how much they want to cooperate.
Out to the lines, Pam in Illinois, hi, Pam.
PAM, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Great show.
I was wondering, where`s the fraternal grandparents? Have they`ve been questioned? Are they in the little girl`s life at all?
GRACE: Rory O`Neill, what do we know?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: We don`t know much about the father of the child. He was killed in a car wreck about a year ago. So that side of the family really hasn`t been involved in the girl`s disappearance.
GRACE: From the very beginning basically.
Out to the lines to Haila, Indiana. Hi, dear.
HAILA, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question?
HAILA: My question is, let`s say for instance, that the little girl is with a friend of Casey and they do find her, and she finally does report where she`s been, then what can happen to the mom after that or maybe even the person who has her even if it was with the mom`s permission to have her?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Let`s unleash the lawyers.
To Anne Bremner out of the Seattle jurisdiction and Doug Burns out of the New
Let`s unleash the lawyers.
To Anne Bremner out of the Seattle jurisdiction and Doug Burns out of the New York jurisdiction -- Doug Burns, under that scenario, could there be any charges?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s a very good question. I think they would see through the obstruction of justice, the lying stuff, and just finish that up, they would be able to convict her of that if they can establish and prove, as I`m sure they can, that what she told them.
GRACE: Doug.
BURNS: . wasn`t true.
GRACE: Doug.
BURNS: Yes?
GRACE: You say they`ll see through it.
BURNS: Yes.
GRACE: You know what? There are thousands of crimes being committed every minute.
BURNS: Right. Right.
GRACE: So this lady takes police on the wild goose chase for hours on end to her office that didn`t exist, to the apartment, where she said she left the baby, nobody had lived there in months -- it goes on and on and on.
BURNS: Nancy.
GRACE: So you don`t see a tiny little obstruction charges in the middle of all that?
BURNS: Yes, I just said that. I`m a lawyer so I`m telling you -- you just asked me a question, what will they charge them with.
GRACE: I know you`re a lawyer and your answer was, they`ll see through it. Now correct me if I`m wrong.
BURNS: No, no, you misunderstood me.
GRACE: But that`s not a legal term.
BURNS: Totally misunderstood me.
GRACE: They`ll see through it. OK. Explain.
BURNS: OK. I guess it`s sort of shoptalk. You were a prosecutor, so was I for nine years. They`re going to see the case through to the end. That`s what I meant.
In other words, they have her on a very good obstruction charge. As you`ve explained the whole night, brilliantly, this is an absurd. This is a mother who is lying about the whereabouts of her own child.
If, thank God, from my mouth to God is, the child is alive and safe and well, then they will see through or finish -- is what I meant, not apologize -- finish the conviction for obstruction of justice.
GRACE: Anne Bremner?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean -- now I want to go back where I started, deja vu all over again.
You know, you don`t go from a lie to life imprisonment. I mean she`s in jail for supposedly lying, but the bottom line is here, I mean, is that there`s nothing -- there`s no crime.
GRACE: Who ever said anything life imprisonment because if this little girl is dead.
BREMNER: Nancy, but we.
GRACE: . forget about life in prison. This is Florida. Old Sparky, remember?
BREMNER: OK. (INAUDIBLE) death penalty, OK. There`s been one woman on that, but.
GRACE: DP, death penalty?
BREMNER: I think there`s been one that was on death row and executed. But that aside, they made a movie about such an anomaly. But the fact is, Nancy, is that you`ve got some lies and some lies and then some lies. That`s it. There`s no body and the fact of the matter is, one more thing, her lawyer is her advocate. The French word for an advocate is avocat. You stand in the shoes of your client.
GRACE: OK. You know what?
BREMNER: That lawyer -- one more thing, Nancy. That lawyer is there for her.
GRACE: Save me -- spare me the French pronunciations for tonight, OK?
BREMNER: No, I`m not going to do the French, but Nancy, he`s there for her, not for law enforcement. And we have to remember that.
GRACE: So, in translation, since you`re translating tonight.
BREMNER: A little there.
GRACE: . he`s there to keep her from going to jail.
BREMNER: He`s there to protect.
GRACE: Not to find the little girl.
BREMNER: He`s there to protect her interest as every lawyer does in America.
GRACE: OK, you know what, Dr. Robi.
BREMNER: I do it. Everyone does that.
GRACE: She`s right. That`s what the lawyers are there for. But what about the mom? What is she there for?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "TILL DEATH DO US PART": Yes.
You know, the mother seems to be covering up and it doesn`t make sense. Why would this mother cover up for her daughter when it seems like something fishy is going on. So either the grandmother has a hope that her granddaughter is alive, she`s enabling, or she`s in complete denial that her daughter could do something this heinous. That`s my.
GRACE: I can tell you right now, Marc Klaas -- Marc Klaas, everybody, you know, is the founder of BeyondMissing.com.
Marc, to me, day one, ping the cell calls, find out where she`s been. If she knows who has the baby, why wouldn`t she give police their cell number? Their location? We find out the location she gave police, nobody has lived there in months.
It`s all BS. Now there`s a technical legal term for you. Everything she says is a lie. When you start lying about the whereabouts of your children, that`s just to me that -- that`s not where they are.
How do I even know this little girl is alive?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: Well, you don`t. Nobody does and that`s why she should be kept in jail where she is to protect herself from herself and if there is some sort of diabolical conspiracy out there to protect her from whoever might be behind that. But certainly don`t let that woman go and certainly don`t make her cooperation a precondition of her release.
GRACE: I know. She says now, through her lawyer, her mouthpiece, yes, I want to cooperate with police, but only when I`m out of jail. I can`t really talk here.
To Brenda in Canada, hi, Brenda.
BRENDA, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I just love you.
GRACE: Thank you.
BRENDA: You just alluded to what I was going to say, it`s that, I don`t believe the grandmother for a second. I think grandma`s up to something here. I think that grandma`s involved and I`m surprised that up until just now nobody really said anything like that.
GRACE: Well, it`s interesting to me, along those lines -- out to you, Anne Bremner, Doug Burns -- that if the grandmother was somehow involved in some plot regarding a cover-up of the child`s death or kidnapping, I find it hard to believe, Anne Bremner, that she would go on national TV and answer questions, although she did clam up when I started asking her questions about her daughter.
BREMNER: Yes.
GRACE: That`s a pretty big risk that she took.
BREMNER: Well, I think of Drew Peterson, but that aside, grandma`s not in jail and she did go on national television and we have to look at her that she`s got the best of intentions.
GRACE: What about it, Doug?
BURNS: No, I honestly can`t figure the situation out, but I said earlier -- and I agree with the caller -- there is some dynamic between the grandmother and the mother which really lays at the heart of this thing.
GRACE: And also, one of our sources, Rory O`Neill, said that the mom states -- the grandmother stated, you know, everyone said that my daughter and I had a big argument, that is simply not true, just before she left with Caylee.
What do we know about that?
O`NEILL: No, there was not a particular incident that caused this to happen. And they said over the five weeks, they had frequent phone conversations and would actually talk about Caylee, and Casey would give explanations, oh she`s at the beach, she`s with a friend, or she can`t come to the phone at the moment.
So the grandmother has been -- has not said there`s any immediate problems. She actually said there are problems going back to the actual birth of Caylee and the instances in the birthing room when the infant was given over to the grandmother rather than the mother, because she was still (INAUDIBLE) with doctors at the time.
And she thinks there`s a psychological impact to the fact that it was the grandmother who held the child first before her own mother did. So she`s really opening up every possible avenue to try to explain her daughter`s behavior.
GRACE: That`s very interesting. A psychological impact.
To the Dr. Zhongxue Hua, joining us from Union County -- he`s a New Jersey medical examiner there -- Doctor, thank you for being with us.
Reports say investigators have gone back to the scene where Caylee`s vehicle was discovered. It had been abandoned, which I also find very tough to reconcile with her story.
Why would you just leave your car somewhere with a child`s seat in it. Whoever had the child, wouldn`t they want the child seat? What would they be looking for back at the abandoned vehicle, Doctor?
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION CO., N.J. MEDICAL EXAMINER: Detail forensic examination including any evidence of blood, any evidence of hair, any other evidence, I mean, everything have to be looked in detail.
GRACE: To Ginger in Arkansas, hi, Ginger.
GINGER, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Hello.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
GINGER: First of all, congratulations on your babies.
GRACE: Thank you very much.
GINGER: You`re truly beautiful. Your (INAUDIBLE) life that gorgeous.
My question is, does anyone know whether this mother has a history of drug abuse or even as farfetched as it sounds, maybe kind of sold her child or.
GRACE: You know, interesting theory.
You know, Marc Klaas, the other night when you and I were together and we were talking to the grandmother, I asked, does Casey have any history of mental illness, and she very carefully worded her answer and said no history of mental illness.
KLAAS: That`s very true, but you know, like everybody is suggesting, there are too many little secrets and too many little things going on for any of this to be credible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: Anybody that looks at this little girl will fall madly in love with her. And there`s no, no way that anybody would not want to have her around because you just -- when you`re around her all you feel is her magic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is 2-year-old little Caylee? We are taking your calls.
To Ginger in Arkansas, hi, Ginger. Ginger, are you with me?
OK, let`s go on to Louise in West Virginia. Hi, Louise.
LOUISE, WEST VIRGINIAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
LOUISE: What I want to -- do you think that Casey, the mother, was jealous of her parents with the little girl and maybe she done something to the little girl?
GRACE: Well, Louise, that`s very analytical by you and very astute because I noticed when the grandmother was on the other night, she stated that Casey wanted to take Caylee to bond with her that because the grandmother spend so much time with her, she didn`t get to bond with her.
My view is, my parents or the children`s other grandparents are there, the more love the better. You can`t give a child too much love. But apparently, there was an issue on that front.
What about it, Dr. Robi?
LUDWIG: Well, it could be that Casey felt that her mother was criticizing her. And what concerns is that the mother of this little girl didn`t feel bonded to her daughter. So did she resent her daughter in some way? Did she feel her daughter was stopping her from living a life that she wanted to live?
This girl, this mother`s only 22 years old. That`s not old. Maybe she wanted to go out and have a good time and felt her daughter was stopping her in some way.
GRACE: Well, you know what, a lot of people would like to be fancy free with no responsibilities, but when you have a child, that changes everything. And from my vantage point, it seems like the grandmother and grandfather stepped in to help raise the child.
The girl was living there, too. Casey, the daughter was living there, too.
Everyone, we are switching gears, but before we do, I want to remind you of the tip line. It is 1-800-423-TIPS, 8477.
And now, out to Oklahoma.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Okfuskee County 911. State your emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes. Somebody`s killed two girls over -- my daughter, my grandbaby and her daughter, her friend. I`m on County Line Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What happened now, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I don`t know. They went for a walk and they`re both down here dead.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: They`re down there dead?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: They`re dead!
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Your granddaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes, and my -- her friend.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Where`s this at, ma`am? Stay calm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We want justice for Taylor and Skylar. Their murders still unsolved.
Out to Marshall Stewart with KRMG, why release the 911 now?
MARSHALL STEWART, REPORTER, KRMG NEWSRADIO: At first, they didn`t want to do it, Nancy, because they thought it was too upsetting and wouldn`t help solve the crime. But it`s been six weeks since these little girls were killed, and so they think maybe this will prompt someone to come forward with information. Just hearing this really is upsetting.
GRACE: To Jessica Brown, public information officer with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation -- Jessica Brown, thank you for being with us. Why release the 911 call now?
JESSICA BROWN, PIO, OKLAHOMA STATE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: We`re hoping that -- well, we know someone knows something about this and they`re keeping quiet for some reason, so if they hear this tape and hear the horror that this family has gone through that they will come forward and have a conscience and let us know what happened.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you, Jessica, you`re thinking is right on because it has had a devastating effect to everyone that has heard it. The grandparents calling in frantic when they learned about the death of their little granddaughters.
Police now just releasing it in the hopes that it will jar someone into coming forward, and in the vein, we will play it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Okfuskee County 911. State your emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes. Somebody`s killed two girls over -- my daughter, my grandbaby and her daughter, her friend. I`m on County Line Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What happened now, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I don`t know. They went for a walk and they`re both down here dead.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: They`re down there dead?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: They`re dead!
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Your granddaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes, and my -- her friend.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Where`s this at, ma`am? Stay calm.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I`m on County Line Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Which county line?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Off Bryant Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Off Bryant Road?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes. Going toward (INAUDIBLE) Road. Oh my god I`m having a -- I don`t know. Help me please!
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK, ma`am. I need you to stay calm so we can get out there to you, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Let me pull up my map and try to find out where you`re at.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Route 1, off 185.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. We can`t look them up with the routes.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh please, please, please, please, please, Lord help me, please!
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Just stay on the line with me.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh god, my god, my god, my baby!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are playing the 911 tape at the family`s request. They, along with police, hope that hearing this heart-wrenching 911 call will jar whoever knows something about the murders of these two little girls to come forward.
We are taking your calls live. To Ann in Kansas, hi, Ann.
ANN, KANSAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. We need more people like you. You`re wonderful.
GRACE: Thank you.
ANN: Nancy, I have a question. Is there anywhere -- have the police looked into the backgrounds of the children`s parents to find out if there was any sort of thing such as gambling debt or a drug debt or anything like that at which point, you know, somebody would, basically, you know, set out revenge by hurting these two beautiful little girls and killing them?
GRACE: What about it? To Jessica Brown -- she`s the public information officer with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.
Jessica, I know that may be a farfetched scenario, but has it been investigated?
BROWN: That`s one of the first things we do, Nancy, is look at the family, those closest to the victims, and we make sure we know everything about them, to find out if there`s any reason that they would do it or someone else would do it in retribution to them.
We have not found that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could this be the only hope of finding out who killed two young girls in Oklahoma? A newly released 911 call? It`s been six weeks since the two best friends were gunned down on a country road. The grandmother finding her granddaughter shot dead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: That 911 call heart-wrenching. We played it for you tonight at the request of the families.
Out to Amy in Illinois, hi, Amy.
AMY, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. God bless you and your darling twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
AMY: You`re welcome.
Well, the previous woman, you know, mentioned about family, but I was wondering, you know, all family like cousins, aunts, uncles, and also like the girls were close together when they were shot. Could it have been someone they knew?
GRACE: To Jessica Brown, PIO with Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, has all of their extended family been interrogated or at least investigated?
BROWN: We have located what we believe is most of the family on both sides and talked to them, and we`re pretty certain we`ve done a good job of that. And also, you`re talking about the two girls being so close together and could they know their killer. That`s something that`s up in the air at this point in time. We believe that is a possibility.
GRACE: Everyone, the tip line is 1-800-522-8017, 522-8017.
Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Robert Taylor McDavid, 29, Starkville, Mississippi, killed Iraq. Left studies at Mississippi State University to enlist. Loved the tuba. He played with the school`s famous maroon band. He lost his life just before his second wedding anniversary.
A fourth generation master mason. Loved outdoors. Leaves behind parents Robert and Jane, sister Leslie, widow Tiffany. The couple met at just 10 years old.
Robert Taylor McDavid, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, welcome back to our show`s creator and executive producer Dean. He and his wife Karen just welcomed their second child, baby William Thomas, our newest little crime fighter.
Congratulations, friend, and welcome back.
Everyone, we`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
