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Nancy Grace
Missing Florida 2-Year-Old`s Mother Named Person of Interest
Aired July 22, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing. It`s a story that becomes more and more convoluted every moment. Little Caylee hasn`t been seen in five long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. In the last hour, bombshell. A lead detective testifies the mom`s car reeked -- reeked! -- of human decomposition, specifically in the car trunk. Do hairs taken from the trunk match little Caylee`s? And the timeline now in complete disarray after the grandmother changes her story! Does an ex-boyfriend place little Caylee alive, alive as late as June 24. Tonight, police name the mom, Casey Anthony, a person of interest. Where is 2-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was the first Orange County detective to talk to 22-year-old Casey Anthony. Yuri says when they finally got permission to search the car, they opened it up and it smelled of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually went into the car to smell what the smell smelled like. Briefly, just before I came into the job (INAUDIBLE) I was homicide detective for two years with Lawrence (ph) County sheriff`s office. In my experience, the smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.
CYNTHIA ANTHONY, MISSING GIRL`S GRANDMOTHER: When Casey said that she wasn`t going to take me to Caylee right away because Caylee had been with the sitter and she didn`t want her to be disrupted that night by seeing me after so long, I got a little anxious because I thought Caylee was with Casey.
I told her, Tell me where Caylee is, or I`m going to go to the police. She said, She`s with Danny (ph). Do what you want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, "Batman" star in holy dust-up? Did Hollywood superstar Christian Bale go from caped crusader on screen to the dark side off screen? After walking the red carpet, Christian Bale heads straight to a London police station. He`s accused of assaulting his mother and sister at an upscale London hotel. But explain this. Why didn`t they call police at the time of the alleged incident? Why did they time their complaint to coincide with the world premier of "The Dark Knight"? Bale, squeaky clean, with no arrest record whatsoever, gives his story to police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Christian Bale, the star of the hottest movie right now in the world, was arrested in London. Bale`s mother and older sister allege that Bale assaulted them on Sunday night. That was the day before the European premier of "The Dark Knight," which stars Bale as Batman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s real mature (ph). He`s somebody with the responsibility of power now, and he`s also come across the archetypal enemy, somebody who has no rules. You can`t leverage him with anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Christian Bale was staying at a suite on Sunday when the alleged assault took place. It`s thought (ph) his mother and sister told officers he lashed out at them when they reported the allegation at the police station in Hampshire. The film star should have been back here this afternoon to do more promotional interviews. Instead, he was subjected to a rather different form of interrogation. The 34-year- old was released from Belgravia police station on bail this evening, pending further inquiries. After the death of co-star Heath Ledger, it`s a second strange development connected to this film.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 2-year-old little Florida girl, Caylee, still missing in a story that becomes more and more convoluted by the moment. In the last hours, bombshell. Mom`s car reeks of decomposition, according to trained cadaver dogs. Where is 2-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police testified at her mother, Casey Anthony`s, bail hearing in Orlando today. Now, the officer says her mom`s car smelled like a decomposing body. The white Pontiac was abandoned at a check- cashing business. Police say they found Caylee`s hair in the trunk, and that`s when investigators called in a cadaver dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) jumped up into the trunk, front paws, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact and moved to the right rear passenger side, rear fender/trunk-taillight area and gave me a fine (ph) train (ph) of alert.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s that mean?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony (INAUDIBLE) suspect in that circumstance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t use the word "suspect." I would use the word "person of interest."
ANTHONY: Casey has lied to me in the past, and when she`s lied, she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to the bottom of the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called the police that night...
ANTHONY: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... for a reason.
ANTHONY: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What reason?
ANTHONY: Because after speaking with Casey, I did not get to see Caylee. I was not satisfied with her answers. It was my opinion that something was wrong that I called the police. Call it a hunch. I had a pretty good hunch that night. I have a pretty good hunch now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill. We are taking your calls live. Rory in court today. What happened?
RORY O`NEILL, METRO NETWORKS: Oh, so much, Nancy. Probably the most significant developments involved the decomposition smell that you already talked about, plus this change of the timeline. It was because the police last night had actually made a phone call to Caylee`s grandmother, asking her if she`s sure about the last time she saw Caylee. That`s because videotape that the family released over the weekend showed the young girl was actually with her great-grandfather on Father`s Day. That would be the 15th, almost a full week after they thought was the last time they saw her alive.
GRACE: Now, let me get something straight, Rory O`Neill -- Rory joining us from Metro Networks. He was in court today. The grandmother apparently took Caylee to visit the great-grandfather in a rest home or an assisted living facility on Father`s Day, is that correct?
O`NEILL: That`s right, and that`s the videotape now that we`ve seen - - we`ve gotten a lot of still photos, but the videotape that came out over the weekend. The police looked at that, determined the date of it was filmed on the 15th. And then it was a lightbulb for the grandmother, who said, That`s right. I took that video on the 15th, so the 9th of June is not the last time I saw Caylee.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, child advocate. He`s the founder of Beyondmissing.com. How can you confuse that, Father`s Day, seeing the baby alive on Father`s Day?
MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: I don`t have any idea how she could do that. Unfortunately, it just calls into question the credibility of this family more and more. But what I think is happening here is I think that Cindy Anthony`s world is crashing in around her as these new revelations are being made known.
GRACE: You know what? I think you`re right about that, Marc Klaas. We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines. Geri in Florida. Hi, Geri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Good evening.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to thank you for all you`re doing and your inspiration.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if you ever come to Boca, I`d be glad to take the pictures of your gorgeous twins (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, are we sure that the father has passed away, and whether he is or not, that this could be some kind of custody thing or that they don`t want the other grandparents to see the child and that`s why the grandmother is helping cover up?
GRACE: Rory O`Neill, where is the dad, for once and for all?
O`NEILL: Well, the police say that they believe Caylee`s story that - - rather, Casey`s story that the father of the baby was killed one year ago in a traffic accident. They say that`s their story that they were told, and that`s one of the few tales from Casey that they actually believe.
GRACE: OK, Rory, tell me about the cadaver dog. That is significant, significant evidence.
O`NEILL: Very much so because -- the family had tried to explain away the cadaver smell -- or the stench, rather, in the car as saying it was an old pizza that was left in the abandoned car, and it was a maggot-filled pizza that caused the odor.
Well, this is the first time we heard Detective Melich on the stand today saying, no, when he smelled it -- he`s a trained -- he`s an old homicide detective. He knows that smell. And then they brought the dogs in, and a cadaver dog, a specially trained dog, also picked up on that same odor. It was an odor of, really, decomposing flesh. And that`s what the dog found both in trunk of the car and at the back yard of the Anthony home.
GRACE: So was there a decayed, maggot-filled pizza in the back yard, too?
O`NEILL: Well, the family was not there. Actually, at the time the digging was taking place, the grandmother was here at the time, so you know, she was actually surprised to see just as -- she was being interviewed by you at the time, so it was -- so she wasn`t there to clear out a pizza, that`s for sure.
GRACE: To Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer, Santa Rosa County, Florida. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. Nobody`s story -- nobody`s story -- fits together. The mother`s doesn`t fit with the grandmother`s. Their story doesn`t fit with the ex-boyfriend -- a former cop, I might add, that states he hears little Caylee, 100 percent certain it`s her, on June 28. June 28, he places the girl alive. The phone record has checked out. There was an 18-minute phone call to this woman, the mother, Casey. The girl, the baby, is in the background, alive.
Now this is blowing the timeline wide open. What do you think?
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FLORIDA: It`s hard to know what to think. Like you stated before, no one in this whole situation is being truthful in reference to this whole thing. The stories have changed...
GRACE: OK, Sergeant, Sergeant, Sergeant -- I`m just a trial lawyer. You`re the expert. OK. Don`t rehash what we already know. Tell me what you think. What is your professional opinion, Sergeant?
HAINES: My professional opinion is she`s lying and she knows exactly where her child is at. And unfortunately, I don`t think it`s a good situation.
GRACE: Sergeant, I think you`re right.
Speaking of the cadaver dogs, the biggest bombshell to hit the courtroom today, we learned that cadaver dogs hit -- hit -- alerted in the -- specifically in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s vehicle.
And with us tonight, we have two very special guests to explain to you how a cadaver dog functions. With us is Tracy Sargent. She is with Homeland Security, joining us tonight, and with her, her cadaver dog, called a detection dog, Cinco. How long did Cinco train, Tracy?
TRACY SARGENT, K-9 HANDLER: He`s 3 years old, and he`s been in training since he was 4 months old.
GRACE: And tonight you`re going to show us a demonstration. What is the object you believe Cinco will alert on?
SARGENT: Yes, Nancy, we have here in the studio scented material that has been in a body bag with a decomposing person. The dog will show us, in this case sit down, and tell us there is human remains scent in this area. And he`ll demonstrate that for us.
GRACE: So Tracy Sargent is with from Homeland Security. Tracy, you`re telling me that this is a cloth material, I believe you said part of a sheet earlier, that was in a body bag. Yes, no?
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am, that is correct.
GRACE: OK, please proceed with Cinco. I`d like to see this.
SARGENT: Cinco, sit. Hunt!
What you notice, Nancy, he`s sitting down. The pillow that he`s facing, there is an article there that is human remains scent. And we`ll show that to you. This container, again, has a sheet from a cadaver. So this right here tells us there is human remains scent in this area, based upon the dog`s trained alert.
GRACE: OK, Tracy, you`re telling me that the material -- please, camera, go back to Cinco and Tracy. You`re telling me the material is inside that container?
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am. What you see, it`s a sheet directly from a person where they died in their bed. This sheet has been soaked with cadaver fluids. And the dog tells us there`s human remains scent in this location.
GRACE: And Cinco, who is a male, smelled that through the container and through the plastic wrapping you have in your hand, correct?
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am, that`s correct. Their sense of smell is so great that it`s almost impossible to cover up any scent, be it drugs or a decomposing person, from a dog.
GRACE: And every type of dog, be it a fire dog, a drug dog, a cadaver dog, they are trained to a specific scent. Like, Cinco would not hit on drugs.
SARGENT: That`s correct. He is specifically trained to find people, dead or alive -- in this case, human remains. Also animal remains, they are trained not to alert on that, as well.
GRACE: Oh, really? Now, that`s something I wanted to ask you about because the dog in Caylee`s case hit specifically in the trunk of her mother`s vehicle. Now, if there had been an accident where an animal was run over, for instance -- I`m hypothesizing here -- the dog wouldn`t hit on any remain other than a human remain, Tracy?
SARGENT: That`s correct. A dead animal and a dead person is totally different to a dog.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist joining us tonight. Cadaver fluid -- what is it?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, what happens after a person dies is that there`s a breakdown of proteins and a synthesis of two very pungent breakdown products, or amino acids. One is called putrescine, the other is called cadaverine, very pungent smells. Once you smell it, you never forget it and you know exactly what the smell of death is. And that is what these dogs are recognizing, putrescine and cadaverine.
And furthermore, the homicide detective that has had apparently vast experience dealing with death recognized the same smell. So I`m very suspicious at this point and it`s a very bad sign, ominous sign, at this stage.
GRACE: You`re seeing again Tracy Sargent with Cinco from Homeland Security. Tracy, I know that you are familiar with the facts of the missing little girl in Florida. The cadaver dog hit specifically on the trunk of the car of the mother, the car belonging to the mother, in the trunk just above the right taillight. Now, your dog is trained to sit in the area on which it hits. What about other dogs? Do they bark? Do they scratch? Do they alert in any other manner?
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am. There`s a variety of ways we can train these dogs to indicate to us there is scent. In Cinco`s case, it`s a sit. Other dogs, it may be a bark, lie down or scratch.
GRACE: And you reward the dog with what?
SARGENT: Generally, we reward them with a toy. In this case, Cinco, it`s a baseball.
GRACE: I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Metro Networks, in court today. From my vantage point of what was happening in court, I noticed that the mother and the grandmother cried throughout until the evidence regarding the cadaver dog came in. Then both of the wells dried up. What happened?
O`NEILL: Well, that was an interesting time because that was really the first time we`d heard any of that evidence. And I think also for the grandmother, perhaps, it`s a sign of, you know, the hope that she may have been holding on may start to fade, if you start hearing reports of cadaver dogs finding scent in this car and in the back yard. So I think for her, it might have been that. I couldn`t really tell Casey`s immediate reaction to the news of the cadaver dog. But it obviously was a sobering moment for anyone who was in that courtroom.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Let`s go to Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, dear. I wanted to ask a couple of questions. One of them, that they said she borrowed the neighbor`s shovel to dig up some bamboo or something that hurt the baby`s feet?
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then she took it back. Well, it looks like to me she would have probably had to have her own shovel if this was an ongoing thing. So maybe she could have -- I hate to think of it -- buried this baby somewhere else.
GRACE: It`s my understanding that the day Casey Anthony needed a shovel, for whatever reason, the tool house in their back yard was locked. She couldn`t get to the shovel, Sheeba. So that is the explanation for using a neighbor`s shovel.
But very quickly, Rory O`Neill, who came up with the pizza explanation for the reeking car?
O`NEILL: That was the grandparents who said there was an old pizza in the back causing the smell, and they had actually gotten rid of it in a bag. But the cadaver dog smelled something very different.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The crime scene investigators are working on the car, trying to determine the -- where the -- where the smell is coming from, if it`s coming from a particular area of the car. And one of the areas that they focused on now is the trunk of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they found hair samples in the trunk of the car that are similar in length and color to that of Caylee. They also found a stain inside the trunk of the car that came up under black light that`s questionable that we need to process. They also found some dirt inside the trunk of the car that needs to be processed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell tonight, and there`s nothing good about it. Cadaver dogs hit on the vehicle belonging to Caylee`s mother, specifically the trunk. According to Rory O`Neill from Metro Networks, in court today, he says the whole theory that the -- there was an old pizza in the car that made the dog hit on it came from the grandparents.
Back out to Tracy Sargent. She`s here with her detection dog, Cinco. They`re both from Homeland Security. Tracy, do cadaver dogs actually alert on food ever?
SARGENT: No, ma`am, they do not. That`s one of the training things we do with these dogs, that any distraction we may find out there, they are trained also that they are only to alert to human remains scent.
GRACE: And to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, Courtney Anderson. What about the bond, Ray Giudice?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, Nancy, bond is not a law enforcement tool to sweat out a confession. It`s a tool for the court to make sure the defendant will come back to court. This judge found that a half a million dollar bond, which is certainly significant, plus a GPS restriction, is enough to insure her return to court to face these charges, which right now are not high.
GRACE: Courtney?
COURTNEY ANDERSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m going to put on my defense attorney hat here very vigorously. If I understand correctly, today in the bond hearing that the police detective did -- under questioning, did say that there`s nothing at this point linking the mother to the disappearance of the child. Now, there`s a lot happening. Certainly, the bottom line is the child is missing. But I think it`s important that we not rush to conclusion.
GRACE: A cadaver dog hits. The mom is lying about the location of her children. I don`t know what you mean by rushing to conclusion. We`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live.
To tonight`s Amber Alert. The search for a missing 4-year-old girl, Manassas, Virginia, Decareyonna Bryche Walker-Mays, last seen July 12. Police say the girl`s mom, not the legal custodian, claims to take the baby to lunch, never returns. They may be headed to Rock Island, Illinois, or Davenport, Iowa. Please take a look. The little girl 3-6, 40 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, pierced ears. If you have information, please call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a tip that came in that we followed up on, indicating that somebody -- a hairdresser, in particular -- had seen Caylee with bruises on her arms, bruises on her body and a mark on her eye. Reason that concerned me was that I retrieved a photo from another witness on a cell phone (INAUDIBLE) cell phone photograph or a phone photograph, that showed Caylee with a mark underneath her eye. So obviously, that witness, not knowing I had this photo, making mention of that, I started looking at, Well, maybe there`s something underlying that I haven`t been asking about. And that`s why I approached the family about it last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, in court today. What can you tell me about the mom allegedly being seen hitting little Caylee in the past, and about this photo?
O`NEILL: Well, that was -- that was the two pieces of information the detective was trying to put together, and that was the last conversation he had with the grandmother. So he hears this story from the hairdresser that the child had multiple injuries. He has this -- or bruises -- I shouldn`t -- maybe not a severe as injuries. He has this photo of the girl with another mark on her cheek. So that forced him to call the grandparents last night. he didn`t get too much further about that on the stand, though, during his testimony today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 15th, Casey maintained for the majority of 45 minutes before my mother called the authorities that she knew where Caylee was and she would take her there in the morning.
It was at that time when the police came. My mother was very frustrated that it came to that. When my mom removed herself from the situation, I, at that time, pleaded with my sister, made her aware -- she wasn`t aware -- that my mom was outside and that she couldn`t hear us.
At that time when I asked her, what are you going to do when the police get here? Because there`s nothing in this for you right now if Caylee is OK. That`s when Casey broke down and cried and she told me at that time, I have not seen my daughter in 31 days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is the brother of mom Casey Anthony, and even that was a lie. Not what he`s saying on the stand, but apparently what his sister, the mother, recounted to him, because she says she hasn`t seen her daughter in 31 days.
But according to an ex-boyfriend who is a former cop, and a -- phone record backs up his story -- on June 24 he hears the little girl in the background on the phone. He`s 100 percent sure that that was Caylee, which totally torpedoes the story she told her own brother who swore to it under oath.
It`s a convoluted story that at the heart of it all is the location and possibly the life of a 2-year-old little Florida girl.
We are taking your calls. To Bonnie in Canada, hi, Bonnie.
BONNIE, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy Grace. You are such a blessing for us. Thank you.
GRACE: Thank you. What is your question, dear?
BONNIE: I was wondering, because the grandmother was so curious -- she was -- not curious. She became alert about the disappearance of her -- not being able to see her granddaughter for such a long time. Is there a history -- is there a child protective services file on the mom?
GRACE: Very interesting. Based on the mother, the grandmother being so concerned.
Rory O`Neill, has DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, ever been called in on Casey Anthony, the mother?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: No, there`s been no record of any trouble at all. But the child -- and you know, is seemingly a very happy household. Very stayable with the grandparents, living in the house, and really young Caylee living in that house basically full time.
So it had been a very stable, simple family home until all of this happened, I guess, now five weeks ago.
GRACE: To Sergeant Scott Haines, officer with Santa Rosa County Sheriff`s Office there in Florida -- Sergeant, the grandmother has now changed the story. She`s placing Caylee alive one week later. How does this affect the search for the little girl?
SERGEANT SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: I don`t think it`s actually going to affect the search of the little girl. The detectives seem like they`re doing a good job. And with all the evidence that they have and the cadaver dogs in this thing, that one week is not going to play a part.
It goes down to she waited that long. And she knows things that she`s more worried about saving for her defense than saving her girl. And that`s a very disturbing fact.
GRACE: Are you referring to the grandmother?
HAINES: I`m referring to everybody involved. The defense attorney is saying that they have all this information, that they can`t disclose because it may incriminate their client, and they`re wanting immunity.
If there`s going to be consequences for this woman, she should be more worried about her child and saving her child than worrying about if she`s going to spend a little bit time in jail for something if, in fact, her child is alive.
GRACE: You know what, Sergeant Scott Haines, you just brought up an interesting point. I`m going to go to Marc Klaas now.
Did you hear Haines mention the mother will talk to police if she`s granted immunity?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: Well, her -- that should never be a condition of her release, if, in fact, she is concerned about finding her daughter.
One of the problems is that this investigation is no longer expanding. It`s contracting. We have numerous individuals who were acquaintances of Casey who have contacted law enforcement to either repute her timeline to show evidence of physical abuse, or to state that she is a pathological liar.
Her mother has now suggested that she may not any longer cooperate with law enforcement. There was a body in the trunk of the car. Caylee is still missing and nobody knows where she is.
This is just a terrible situation.
GRACE: Very quickly, Rory O`Neill. Marc Klaas touched on an important issue. The grandmother suggesting she may no longer cooperate with police. Why?
O`NEILL: I talked to the attorney -- her -- the attorney who represents Casey. He says that`s absolutely not true. The family is willing to cooperate. And he doesn`t agree with the testimony that was heard in today`s bond hearing.
GRACE: To psychotherapist Lauren Howard joining us out of New York -- Lauren, the grandmother has appeared defensive and combative. Why?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s very difficult to figure out if they`re -- if they`re closing ranks and protecting one another, or if they`re both complicit.
What the attorney is telling us is that they have information, or at least the mother has information. So on the one hand grandmother is the one who alerted the police. On the other hand she`s kind of running for cover.
So, as this unfolds, and it will unfold, it will probably be a simpler story than our -- than the crisis for imagination will lead us to believe. It will be revealed. But at this point to conjecture and figure it out, it`s so sort of almost diabolical.
And to me, it speaks of a certain enmeshment between the mother and daughter, you know, a kind of -- where the boundaries don`t begin and end appropriately.
GRACE: I think you`re right, because the grandmother told me pointblank that Casey says she wanted to go away on a vacation with her daughter Caylee so they could bond. That she wasn`t able to bond with her 2-year-old little girl living there in the house with the grandmother. The grandmother told me that.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, child lawyer Courtney Anderson, out of Austin, Texas.
To Raymond Giudice, both you and Courtney suggested, there`s very little evidence. Well, I find it very strong evidence that Casey Anthony`s car was abandoned by her and now cadaver dogs hit in her car.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well.
GRACE: They only hit on human remains, Raymond.
GIUDICE: Well, so I assume the district attorney is preparing an indictment for homicide right now, because if there`s enough probable cause, according to you, that`s what they should be doing.
GRACE: No, that`s not what I said. I said that there`s very strong evidence.
GIUDICE: OK. But.
GRACE: You and Courtney suggest there`s no evidence whatsoever.
GIUDICE: But there`s not even probable cause.
GRACE: Why don`t we just call it like it is?
GIUDICE: There`s not even probably cause.
GRACE: Did I say probable cause? Is that what I just said?
GIUDICE: That`s the lowest.
GRACE: No, it`s not. I said there`s a strong evidence.
GIUDICE: Nancy, the lowest form of evidence in a courtroom is probable cause, and they don`t even have that yet.
GRACE: Let me rephrase my question to Courtney Anderson. We`re not in court. We`re not battling it our in court. Let`s just talk about the facts as they really exist. Let`s not pretend about what`s going on here. This is a search for a little girl.
There is strong evidence. And I`m referring specifically to the issue of bond. We have a mother who is lying about the location of her child or withholding evidence. She won`t speak without immunity. Her lawyer says they want to talk, but he won`t return the sheriff`s phone calls. She abandons her car. And now a cadaver dog hits on her car.
What more do you think we need for probable cause, Courtney?
COURTNEY ANDERSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, the bottom line is we all want the little girl to be found. This is a reprehensible person. No matter what`s happened, no matter what has happened, whether she herself intentionally did something to the child or accidentally did something to the child, or she knows someone who did something to the child. For her to lying and playing games, it`s unbelievable.
We have to understand, the attorneys, the police, everyone is doing their job in this system. And doing it, it appears to be, to the best of their ability.
But I -- you know, we can`t expect that this woman who`s -- this kind of reprehensible person to do something that is reasonable.
GRACE: Yes, you know what? The both of you are right in the sense that we -- the three of us are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation.
To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us, forensic scientist, about the hair, the hair found in the trunk, what can you tell me? Why haven`t -- or tried to do a DNA match to hair from the little girl from the home?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, hair analysis for identification should only be done by comparing a question and a known. And you can do that visually, you can do it microscopically, or you can do it through DNA, as you just pointed out.
However, mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited, which means that, Caylee`s mitochondrial DNA profile is shared by Casey, by Casey`s brother, by her mother. So it`s not unique.
So here, we have to look at this microscopically and visually, and determine if there is a match or not, then we can say.
GRACE: Yes, no? Dr. Kobilinsky, if they have nucleus from the hair in the trunk and you have a nucleus of the little girl`s hair from a brush or comb in the home, can you make a mitochondrial match?
KOBILINSKY: No, it -- well, if the hair is Caylee`s, and they`re comparing it to the mother`s, they can determine that there`s commonality here. If there`s nuclear DNA, that will make a difference, yes.
GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, switching gears. Did Hollywood superstar Christian Bale go from "Caped Crusader" on screen to the dark side off-screen?
Accused of assaulting his mother and sister at a London hotel. But why didn`t they complain at the time of the incident? And why did they complain at the time of the world premiere of "The Dark Knight."
And tonight, 58 years ago, about this time, two very special people set off on the ride of a lifetime. Fifty-eight years and still happy together.
Happy anniversary, Mother and Daddy.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Batman" star Christian Bale went before the cameras on Monday at the European premiere of "The Dark Knight" in London`s famed Leicester Square.
This is Bale on Tuesday, in the back of a van being whisked away from the back of a London police station.
The Hollywood star spent more than four hours at the station after volunteering to answer allegations of assault -- allegations made by his mother and sister. Press reports say they told police the British-born Bale assaulted them on Sunday at London`s swank Dorchester Hotel, hours after he flew in from Hollywood.
The police chose not to interview Bale until after "The Dark Knight" premiere. Late Monday, Bale`s publicist said the "Batman" star denies the allegation, and he left the police station without any charge.
Police say he may be back in September pending further inquiries.
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GRACE: OK, something stinks. There`s no other way to put it. This guy has no criminal history whatsoever. Nothing. Not even a brush with the law. He`s been working since he was about 13 years old.
Out to Jim Boulden, correspondent, CNN London.
Jim, thank you for being with us. What happened?
JIM BOULDEN, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: It`s really a strange one, isn`t it, Nancy? I mean we`re told that possibly there was an assault at the Dorchester Hotel on Sunday night. And then his mother and sister waited until Monday to walk into a police station outside of London to make this claim that there was some kind of assault of Monday.
And then, of course -- then the police didn`t do anything about it until Tuesday after the premiere when they asked him to come in and speak to them. And then he did that. So he was at a police station for about four hours.
What we don`t know whether it was a physical assault, was it verbal assault? We just don`t know that. But we do know that Christian Bale has moved on. He`s going on with the whole team -- the press team -- for this film onto Barcelona, then onto Tokyo.
GRACE: Is it true, to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly," that the mother and the sister haven`t seen him or had communications with him for about eight years?
TOM O`NEIL, SR. EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY, INTERVIEWED CHRISTIAN BALE SEVERAL TIMES: No, no, that`s a false report, Nancy. He has not been back to Wales, where he grew up, in eight years. He has been back to London promoting his films in that time.
But there -- in general, there has been some distance between that part of his family and Christian. You`re right about that. His parents split at the age of 13 and he went with his father who manages to.
GRACE: OK. OK. OK. OK. You just told me I`m wrong. You just told me I`m right. When is the last time he was with his mother or sister, Tom O`Neil?
O`NEIL: I don`t know when he was physically last with them, but I know that they have communicated in the past few years.
GRACE: So the issue of them not being together, haven`t seen each other in eight years, could be true?
O`NEIL: It could be true. Yes. But I know that they have been.
GRACE: You know I`m hooking you up to a lie detector, O`Neil.
O`NEIL: Here`s the bottom line, Nancy. She was asked recently, you know, what was their relationship like? This was before the flare up.
GRACE: Right.
O`NEIL: And she had said that there was never any real problem there.
GRACE: Right.
O`NEIL: But there was distance, because he -- when they split, he moved on with his dad.
GRACE: OK. Understand.
To -- back to Jim Boulden, correspondent with CNN London. Jim, let me get this straight. He`s only charged with assault. Not battery, correct?
BOULDEN: He`s not charged with anything. He was only accused of and he voluntarily.
GRACE: Oh yes.
BOULDEN: . went into the police station. So -- and he was released without any charges -- any charges pending. They just want to investigate. And they said they`re going to take a few months to investigate. So no charges yet.
GRACE: And he actually spoke to police for four hours?
BOULDEN: Well, he was in the police station for four hours. And then after that he was whisked away. And that`s when they released a statement and that when we actually were able to confirm that these allegations were leveled by his sister and his mother. And he denied the allegations. He doesn`t say what those allegations are.
GRACE: To Marvey Britto, brand strategist and founder of The Britto Agency in New York -- Marvey, weigh in.
MARVEY BRITTO, PR/BRAND STRATEGIST, FOUNDER, THE BRITTO AGENCY: It sounds like somebody got bad seats to the premiere, Nancy. This is a guy who typically flies below the radar unless he has something to sell. His character has never been called into question. And all the sudden, you know, it`s Batmania, and Bat mama raises allegations.
We -- there`s not enough information to us to really make a discernment at this point. But it`s safe to say something happened. But we don`t know enough yet to make a judgment. And I think he`s just going to move on and the public isn`t going to judge him.
GRACE: Well, Marvey, as usual, I disagree with you.
Let`s go out to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, Courtney Anderson. OK. Hold on to your seats, counsel.
To you, Courtney Anderson, I know this much. I know they did not call police at the time of the incident. I know that nobody at the hotel heard or saw anything to call the police at the time of the incident -- not security, not people next door in the next room, nobody.
I know that they have -- are somewhat estranged in that they have not physically seen each other in some time. I know the mother and the sister did not call police that night. They waited until the next day. They got all the way back home to another city, go to the local police, and make a complaint coincidentally on the evening of the UK premiere of his show "Dark Knight."
Call it, Courtney.
ANDERSON: Wow. Who would have thought? You know sometimes family just needs to be left alone. No good deed goes unpunished. It looks like he was trying to reach out to them. There was some sort of apparently, you know, correspondence where they knew how to reach him.
And obviously, no matter what transpires in the future, it did not go well.
GRACE: And Raymond Giudice, assault and battery. I know in the UK they say he`s not charged, but he was brought in and accused by his mother and sister of assault.
Explain, in a nutshell, the difference between assault and battery.
GIUDICE: All right, Nancy. Assault is either physical and/or verbal contact that puts another person in reasonable apprehension of an immediate harm. You don`t need any contact. It could be physically actions, yelling, screaming, threatening, or gesturing. But it has to be a reasonable interpretation of imminent harm.
GRACE: And to Lauren Howard, I`d like to hear your take on this.
HOWARD: Bottom line, Nancy, is regardless of whether or not he yelled at his -- his mother and his sister, maybe threatened them in some way, they, obviously, were not physically in terrible damage or we`d know about it. And I want to know what mother and sister would do this to a loved one.
If they`re having problem, if they`re -- if he cursed at them, if he yelled at them, if he lost his cool with them, you know what? Work it out. Don`t go to the cops.
GRACE: And Tom O`Neil, coincidentally, just hours before the UK premiere?
O`NEIL: Nancy, why is everybody taking Christian`s side here?
GRACE: I smell a rat.
O`NEIL: Come on, this is a mother who`s very proud of her son here, and she turned her kid in to the cops a day later after the fight, when she cooled off.
Something terrible happened in that room.
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GRACE: It`s the night of the UK premiers of "Batman: The Dark Knight" and Christian Bale allegedly assaults his mother and sister? That`s the report.
To Darla in Louisiana, hi, Darla.
DARLA, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
DARLA: Well, first of all, I want to tell your parents congratulations.
GRACE: I will -- thank you.
DARLA: And that you have beautiful children. And second of all, I just want to know the difference between assault and assault and battery. And can you just yell at somebody and that`s considered assault?
GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question.
Courtney, clear it up.
ANDERSON: You can`t just yell at somebody. There has to be absolutely in fear that there`s going to be an imminent battery that you`re going to physically attack them. So it can`t just be yelling.
But if you`re yelling where the person believes that you`re absolutely going to attack them, then, yes, that could be an assault.
GRACE: And generally, Ray, it`s combined with, not just yelling -- Courtney`s correct. There`s got to be some type of -- there`s got to be something suggestive that you`re in immediate physical harm.
GIUDICE: That`s true.
GRACE: . like approaching them or threatening them.
GIUDICE: That`s right, in fact, a threat over the phone might not make it because there`s no threat.
GRACE: Yes.
GIUDICE: . that that person`s going to be there, so there`s a physical immediacy, the actions, the conduct, and the verbal, as just pointed out by Courtney.
GRACE: Absolutely correct, and as of right now there`s only an accusation regarding assault. We`ll see where it goes.
Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Jonathan Ayers, 24, Snellville, Georgia. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Good Conduct medal. Lost his life days before returning home. Loved bowling, soccer, ice skating, Atlanta Thrashers, rock music. Favorite comedian Jeff Foxworthy. Leaves behind parents Bill and Suzanne, older brother Josh.
Jonathan Ayers, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight our prayers for the family, friends and colleagues of Okaloosa County Sheriff`s Department Deputy Anthony Tony Forgione, killed in the line of duty, Fort Walton Beach, Florida. The 33-year-old deputy leaves behind a grieving widow and two young daughters.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, until then, good night, friend.
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