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Nancy Grace
Tipster Says Missing Toddler Spotted on Flight to Atlanta
Aired July 23, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing. It`s a story that becomes more and more convoluted. Little Caylee hasn`t been seen in five long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Tonight, bombshell. We now learn trained cadaver dogs hit on not only the mom`s car trunk but in the grandmother`s back yard, as well, police so concerned they bring in another cadaver dog, who independently hits on the same two areas. Cops also reveal a tipster claims she saw little Caylee boarding a flight to Atlanta. The 2-year-old`s mom, Casey Anthony, named a person of interest. She says she`ll help police, all right, but only if granted full immunity from prosecution. Tonight, where is 2-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing 2-year-old Caylee Anthony likely will not be found alive. Even prosecutors are now saying this is beginning to look more and more like a homicide. Her mom, Casey Anthony, is charged with child neglect, lying to detectives. Cops testified in court yesterday that her car smelled like death. But Caylee`s grandmother had a different explanation for that. Just listen to what she said. Watch this exchange as she`s walking out of the courthouse.
CYNTHIA ANTHONY, MISSING GIRL`S GRANDMOTHER: Caylee is missing. And continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you deal with what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?
ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots, that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see bruises on Caylee?
ANTHONY: I have a bruise. Am I abused?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Cadavers (SIC) don`t hit on pizza. Cadaver dogs do not hit on pizza.
And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing up scale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, the suspicious bathtub drowning of wife three officially ruled homicide. Tonight, is there finally a break in the case?
Long-time friends say -- of Peterson`s -- they were wired secretly by police for months, allegedly catching Peterson mocking the cops and wishing he had wife three cremated. Peterson then allegedly states on tape by the time Stacy`s body is found, he`ll be acquitted of her murder and escape justice because of double jeopardy. Peterson allegedly goes on to ask friends to sabotage a boat used in the search for Stacy and to destroy a memorial garden in Stacy`s memory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of Drew Peterson`s former long-time friends are talking to "The Sun-Times."` They told the paper they were undercover informants, wearing wires for months to help authorities build a case against the ex-Bollingbrook cop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way that this happened. The Illinois State Police and the prosecutors would never allow a witness, an undercover witness, for seven months to talk to the media like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All this starts (ph) as Peterson mocks investigators, saying she was in a dry bathtub. What a bunch of expletive idiots. Len Wawczak also recalls Peterson telling them, I should have had that "expletive" cremated. It would have cost me less, and I wouldn`t be going through this trouble. According to the paper, Wawczak also says that Peterson told him he wasn`t worried about them finding Stacy`s remains down the road because he figured by that time, he would have been tried and acquitted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning, Drew Peterson spoke to reporters through his front door.
DREW PETERSON, SUSPECTED IN WIFE STACY`S DISAPPEARANCE: I`d love to talk to you, but my attorney has instructed me not to make any comments today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to be thinking something about those comments that they made that they say on tape. They say, you know, this is going to be the end of you.
PETERSON: OK. We`ll see.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing. It`s a story that becomes more and more convoluted. Little Caylee hasn`t been seen in five long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police? Cadaver dogs hit on the mom`s car. Was there a Caylee sighting on a flight to Atlanta? Tonight, the lawyer for mom Casey Anthony is with us live and taking your calls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family is investigating a possible sighting of Caylee at Orlando International Airport. Three members of the same family contacted the Anthonys, saying they spoke to the missing toddler and even asked her name as they all boarded a flight to Atlanta July 2.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knows exactly which date, which flight. They can figure it out. You know, she knows approximately which row they were sitting at.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators, however, believe Caylee may be dead, based in part on an odor inside the mother`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: However, the family now believes that smell was merely a rotten slice of pizza. Today, they`re questioning the credibility of a sheriff`s cadaver dog that detected decomposition in the car, as well as in the grandparents` back yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care what America thinks of me. If they think that I`m a (DELETED) because I`m standing up to the media that want to attack me, OK? If they want to take the focus on this face, if they want to do that, they can live with themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With us tonight, a special guest. The lawyer, Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony, little Caylee`s mother, is with us live. We are taking your calls live tonight.
First to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. Rory, what`s the latest?
RORY O`NEILL, METRO NETWORKS: Well, good evening, Nancy. There is a bit more hope today, especially for the whole Anthony family. That`s because of that new lead coming out of Orlando International Airport, where a family says they saw little Caylee getting on a plane bound for Atlanta. They met with detectives this afternoon, even a sketch artist trying to put information together. They actually reached out, contacted the grandparents directly, and then they were referred to police. And it`s really given the Anthony family hope that Caylee is still alive and was seen as recently as July the 2nd.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Casey Anthony`s attorney joining us tonight. He`s a veteran trial lawyer out of the Orlando, Florida, area. We`re happy to have with us tonight Jose Baez. Mr. Baez, thank you for being with us.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Mr. Baez, it`s my understanding that police have discounted the tipster because the tipster, a woman, could not give a flight number or a date for the flight to Atlanta. Is that true?
BAEZ: No, that`s not true at all. In fact, we know the dates. We know the airline. We know the destination. So I believe that`s all being worked out. This is the first I`m hearing that they`ve discounted it. In fact, we find it to be a very credible lead because the entire family spoke with Caylee.
GRACE: Could you give us, then, that information, the date, the airline? We know the destination was Atlanta.
BAEZ: Well, unfortunately, I wrote it down and I don`t have it with me right now. But I do know that that is a very credible lead. And some of the things that -- what we find very credible about it is, A, it`s an entire family. It`s not just one person. B, the information that was gathered -- apparently, the way Caylee said her name is what really is encouraging the family because only the family would know exactly how she would say her name and...
GRACE: Without the H, "Antony."
BAEZ: Exactly. Antony, exactly. And not only that, she also includes her middle name when she says her name. When someone asks her what`s her name, she says, Caylee Marie Anthony.
GRACE: Marie. Well, anyone who`s watched this news story knows her name is Caylee Marie Anthony.
BAEZ: Yes, but someone -- you know, you`d have to make the conclusion that she wouldn`t just say Caylee Anthony. And also the "Antony" is also very encouraging. We`re also -- you know, this all happened in an airport, so we`re going to be able to verify certain things. But everything that we`ve -- all the information we`ve been given and everything indicates that this seems to be a credible lead.
GRACE: Well, sheriff`s investigators have told our producers that the tip does not lead them to be optimistic because, again, they state that there`s not a flight number, that there is not a date. And I find that very -- you know, that`s a complete dichotomy with what you`re telling me.
BAEZ: It certainly sounds that way.
GRACE: But you cannot remember even the flight carrier? You don`t know if it was Delta or Airtran coming out of Orlando?
BAEZ: I believe it was Airtran, but unfortunately...
GRACE: Well, that narrows it down to just a few flights a day, then.
BAEZ: Correct. No, I -- like I said, I wrote it down. I have it in my file. I didn`t know I was going to be asked about that, just, you know, the exact information. But I know for a fact that we have that information and we`re following through with it and following up.
GRACE: Question. When the tipster asked the little girl her name, did the tipster know that Caylee Anthony was missing?
BAEZ: No, she did not.
GRACE: And so she only put two and two together after seeing news reports.
BAEZ: Correct.
GRACE: Question. Why did she not go to police? Why did she contact Casey Anthony directly?
BAEZ: I believe she tried contacting police through the tip line, and unfortunately, we`ve had a couple of reports that they`re not -- they weren`t able to get through. And this isn`t the first person we`ve heard this from. So they took it a step further and contacted the Anthonys directly.
GRACE: Interesting because we`ve called the tip line and we got straight through. I want to ask you a couple of questions regarding your client. And I completely understand the attorney-client privilege. It`s my understanding that your client will not meet with police until she`s granted immunity. Is that true?
BAEZ: That`s totally not true. That`s 100 percent false. And I heard that in the beginning of your broadcast, and I was hoping to have an opportunity to clear that up. We have never, ever, ever told the police, Look, she`ll talk, but only if she`s released or granted immunity. Nothing like that ever transpired, and I...
GRACE: Well, Mr. Baez, why hasn`t she spoken and sat down with police since she was first interrogated?
BAEZ: Well, the police have not contacted me with any specific information that they want to ask her. I`ve instructed the police, and I even sent -- after there was a whole debate of going back and forth as to what I said and what they said, I decided to put it down on paper. I sent them a letter explaining to them, Look, I`m willing to have her accessible to you. We`re willing to assist in the search, so long as it`s concentrating on the search and not on her prosecution.
GRACE: Well, you know, it`s interesting...
BAEZ: I can`t expose my client to that.
GRACE: ... because Orange County sheriff`s deputy Carlos Padilla (ph) says that you, Jose Baez, have not returned detectives` calls to set up a meeting.
BAEZ: That`s untrue. And Mr. Padilla and I have had a couple of disagreements over the last week, and this is just another one of those.
GRACE: Well, if you`re agreeing to meet with them with your client, then why hasn`t it happened?
BAEZ: Well, you`d have to ask the detectives that. I mean, they`re the detectives. They`re supposed to be investigating this case. I don`t know what they`re doing, but it appears from every report that I get that they`re just simply concentrating on prosecuting Casey. For example...
GRACE: Well, don`t you believe, if that were true, Mr. Baez, that they would leap at the chance to be alone with you and your client in a squad car driving around town in a search for Caylee?
BAEZ: Well, they haven`t requested that, so maybe you`re a little bit ahead of them.
GRACE: So Padilla is completely lying when he says you have not returned his phone calls?
BAEZ: One hundred percent. One hundred percent.
GRACE: A couple of questions about your client`s earlier statements to police, for instance, claiming that she dropped her daughter, little Caylee, off at a baby-sitter`s house on June the 9th, and when she came back, they were gone.
BAEZ: Correct.
GRACE: Well, that`s not true.
BAEZ: Well, you know, I wasn`t privy to the conversations that she`s had with police. My conversations with her is that she dropped the baby off with the baby-sitter and she has not seen her since. And that`s...
GRACE: So she told you that, as well? Because her mother told us on air that that was her story, when, in fact, police did track down the so- called baby-sitter, Zenaida Gonzalez, who says she never even met Caylee or Casey Anthony and has never baby-sat for them ever in life.
BAEZ: And you can also refer to the same police report, where it says they showed her a photograph of the person they spoke with, and my client said that that is not the Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Your client said what?
BAEZ: If you refer -- I guess you`re referring to the police report. But in that same police report, it states that they showed a photograph to my client and she stated that that was not Zenaida Gonzalez, the same Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: She also told the police that the apartment where she dropped the child off -- she showed them the apartment -- that apartment has been vacant since February 29, Mr. Baez.
BAEZ: I`ve certainly heard -- I`ve seen that in the report, and that`s what the police are saying she said. I- unfortunately, she is locked up right now. I haven`t had the opportunity to go with her to specific locations to show me where she told the police that she dropped the child off and to verify a lot of these things. Unfortunately...
GRACE: You have had the opportunity to meet with her. You were in court with her...
BAEZ: Absolutely.
GRACE: ... and you also had time to prepare with her. And the jail allows attorney-client visits. You have had the opportunity to meet with her, so...
BAEZ: I didn`t say I haven`t had the opportunity to meet with her. I said I haven`t had the opportunity to go to these places with her to verify that what the police are saying she told them is the truth.
GRACE: So you`re...
BAEZ: Unfortunately...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... the theory that the police may be...
BAEZ: I`m sorry? I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. I was talking over you.
GRACE: So you`re functioning under the belief that the police have fabricated this?
BAEZ: No, no. I`m under the belief and it`s my experience that, number one, you don`t always believe everything you read in a police report. You verify it and you do your job and you do your investigation. So that`s part of my investigation that I have not had the opportunity to do yet because my client is locked up. And the only one who can take me to where she took the police would be my client. And I`m hoping to have the opportunity to do that relatively shortly.
GRACE: Well, another thing that is concerning, Mr. Baez -- everyone, with us tonight is the attorney for Caylee`s mom, Casey Anthony, a veteran trial lawyer, Jose Baez, joining us out of the Orlando, Florida, jurisdiction. It`s my understanding that she also told police she worked at Universal Studios and actually took them there, all the way there in the car, got out of the car, walked up to where she said she worked, and then finally turns around and says, You know what? I don`t work here. As it turns out, she was fired from there. So why would she lie about something as innocent as where she worked?
BAEZ: You know, again, that`s another -- that goes along the same lines. I don`t know if she actually told that to the police. I don`t know if that actually occurred the way they say it occurred. And I`d like to certainly look into that a little bit further. If there are audio recordings of their conversations, I`d like to be able to play them for my client and ask her about those things. But that is part of the process of defending a case. And that`s part of the things that I, unfortunately, because we`re not at the discovery phase, haven`t had the opportunity to do.
GRACE: You don`t have to be in the discovery phase preparing for trial to find out the truth from your client.
BAEZ: Well, you have to be in the discovery phase to get everything you need from the police, like audio recordings, so that way, you can go over them with your client and verify the accuracy...
GRACE: Mr. Baez...
BAEZ: ... or any interpretations or to see if any of this stuff was taken out of context.
GRACE: Yes. Mr. Baez...
BAEZ: That`s part of the job.
GRACE: ... where was your client for the four weeks that Caylee has been missing?
BAEZ: That`s -- part of that is some of the things that I simply can`t discuss because it`s protected by attorney-client privilege.
GRACE: But why? Why is that a secret, if she wants to find her little girl alive?
GRACE: Well, I`m certain -- you know, you`re an attorney, as well, and you wouldn`t violate the attorney-client privilege...
GRACE: I would want to find the little girl alive, Mr. Baez!
BAEZ: I`m a little confused as to why you would ask that question.
GRACE: Because I want to find Caylee alive.
BAEZ: If she knows where...
GRACE: And obviously, you and your client do not.
BAEZ: She does not know where Caylee is and...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not the news you wanted though, Cindy.
ANTHONY: Well, of course not. Of course not. This is ridiculous. I didn`t want anybody to think that my daughter did anything to harm her child because she hasn`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) in the car (INAUDIBLE)
ANTHONY: I already documented that. You guys look back in the (INAUDIBLE) what I told you about the car and the smell and why it stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re saying about in the trunk of the car.
ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots, and it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.
ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our house cleared (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But they`re not saying the house is cleared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The case becoming more and more bizarre, but at the heart of it is this 2-year-old little girl, Caylee Anthony. With us tonight, her mother`s lawyer. Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony, is with us.
And we are taking your calls. Out to the lines. Sharon in Alabama. Hi, Sharon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know if the police have checked the local hospitals to see if Caylee has ever been brought into the ER for any reason.
GRACE: To Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. What do we know? I specifically asked a question the other night regarding whether DFACS, department of family and children`s services, had ever been called in and was told point-blank no, no reports from DFACS. But what about local hospitals? Have they been checked, Rory?
O`NEILL: I haven`t seen anything particular. I would assume that`s part of the standard procedure, but no specific reports of them investigating hospitals.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, what about it?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: ... be part of the initial investigation, Nancy, absolutely, especially on a missing person`s case like this, to make sure no one`s been to the hospital with any kind of injuries.
GRACE: Back to Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony. Sir, you keep telling me over and over that your client, the mother, does not know where Caylee is.
BAEZ: Correct.
GRACE: Where did she leave her?
BAEZ: With the baby-sitter. And we believe...
GRACE: What baby-sitter?
BAEZ: ... she`s been kidnapped. Zenaida Fernandez (ph) Gonzalez.
GRACE: Where?
BAEZ: She gave me a specific location. I`ve -- all I have is an address. But I want to verify...
GRACE: What`s the address?
BAEZ: I certainly don`t have it with me, if that`s what you`re looking to get.
GRACE: You don`t want me to know it because it`s the same place the cops went and checked out and she didn`t live there. It was vacant.
BAEZ: No, that`s not the case.
GRACE: Then what is it?
BAEZ: Well, you know, if you had told me you were going to ask me this question, I would have certainly had it with me and...
GRACE: I would assume you would know the facts like the back of your hand.
BAEZ: Well, you know, that`s why -- I`m human. I write with a pen and paper. And that`s -- hello?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: America can think what they want, as long as they continue to look for my granddaughter. You know, I don`t care what America thinks of me. If they think that I`m a (DELETED) because I`m standing up to the media that want to attack me, OK, if they want to take the focus on this face, if they want to do that, they can live with themselves, OK? I don`t care what they think about me. As long as this picture gets out and people like this lady, who keeps trying to get through to the authorities that swears to God she saw my granddaughter alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The tip line in this case, 800-423-TIPS, 423-8477.
Straight back out to Jose Baez, the attorney for the girl`s mom, Casey Anthony. Your client, according to you, says she dropped her child off on June 9. But that`s not true. The grandmother saw them together on June 15.
BAEZ: Yes. Absolutely. Apparently, they were mistaken on those dates. Everyone seemed to be mistaken on those dates. And we certainly were able to confirm that the time has been shorter than that.
GRACE: Well, don`t you think your client should know the last time she was with her own daughter?
BAEZ: Well, everyone who -- since this was so long ago, it was just simply a confusion...
GRACE: It was last month!
BAEZ: ... of dates.
GRACE: It was last month!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Prosecutors say the case of a missing 2-year- old Florida girl is beginning to look like a homicide.
Caylee Anthony was last seen more than a month ago but was reported missing just last week. Her mother, 22-year-old Casey Anthony, is considered a person of interest in the case.
Now investigators searched her car. And at a hearing yesterday a detective testified that her car smelled of death.
Investigators say they found a stain, dirt and what seems to be Caylee`s hair in the car`s trunk.
Caylee`s mother is currently charged with child neglect and obstruction. Her bond is set at half a million dollars.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: With us tonight is the attorney for Caylee`s mother, Casey Anthony. Jose Baez is joining us out of Orlando, Florida.
So, Mr. Baez, you are telling me point blank your client nor you have asked for immunity for her?
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR MISSING TOT`S MOTHER CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely not.
GRACE: Under any circumstance?
BAEZ: Under any circumstance.
GRACE: And you claim the fact you have not met with her and investigators is simply a failure in communication?
BAEZ: No. I don`t think that they`re -- for some reason, you know, there`s a lot going back and forth, and -- but I`ve reached out to them. I`ve expressed it, I put it in writing, and.
GRACE: Well, actually, sir.
BAEZ: . they have yet to respond.
GRACE: Our control room has them on the phone right now.
BAEZ: Perfect.
GRACE: And they`re happy to arrange a meeting between you, your client and police. When would you like to do it?
BAEZ: Well, I -- where are they? Put them on the phone. Let`s talk.
GRACE: Give me a date and a time.
BAEZ: Well, I`ll meet them at the jail right now. If they have.
GRACE: Well.
BAEZ: If they have any credible belief.
GRACE: Can you wait for about 10 minutes.
BAEZ: Hold on a second, hold on.
GRACE: . until we get to commercial break.
BAEZ: Again, I didn`t hear you because I was talking. If they have any credible leads that they want to bounce me -- they want me to bounce off of my client, they can meet me at the jail in about half an hour. And I`d be more hand happy to go inside, talk to my client and find out exactly what the answer is to any of those leads that will help find Caylee.
GRACE: So will you sit down with you, your client and police, and go through the evidence?
BAEZ: If there`s any leads they want me to go over. Now I`m not -- I`m not going to be there to prosecute my client or to assist them in prosecuting my client. I will be there to.
GRACE: How about assisting in finding Caylee?
BAEZ: I will be there to ensure that my client`s rights are protected. But I`m there to help find Caylee. That`s the only reason I`d be willing to meet with law enforcement.
GRACE: Because, it`s 8:32.
BAEZ: Not for anything other than trying to Caylee.
GRACE: It`s 8:32.40 and that`s the first time tonight, sir, that you have stated you`re here to help find Caylee.
BAEZ: Well, I -- no, no, apparently on your show, because I`ve been saying it all along. I -- you might be able to (INAUDIBLE) in the times on that one.
GRACE: Good to know. Good to know.
Out to the lines, to Martha in Tennessee. Hi, Martha?
MARTHA, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy this is Martha Dugger(ph).
GRACE: Hello. Nice to talk to you. What`s your question, dear?
MARTHA: First of all, I want to say thank you for all you do for victims and God bless you.
I`d like to know, could it be possible that she had Caylee buried in the backyard and then dug her up and put her in the back of the car?
GRACE: Interesting theory, Martha Dugger, joining us out of Tennessee.
To Mike Brooks, police now have a theory that the -- because the cadaver dogs hit in the southeast corner of the backyard -- of the grandmother and the mother`s back yard.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Right.
GRACE: It also hit in the trunk of the mother`s car over the right taillight.
BROOKS: Right.
GRACE: Their theory is -- explain.
BROOKS: There`s a very good possibility that could be true, Nancy, because, number one, in the trunk of that car, you had a stain. They used an alternate light source and they`re doing additional testing. But that stain came up positive. They use an ultra light source.
They also had hair from Caylee. They also had dirt. Now they can take a comparison of the dirt that was in the trunk and the dirt from that back yard, do a soil comparison to see if, possibly, there was transference from that scene in the backyard into the car.
And they`re also not saying, Nancy, what other evidence they found there at the scene. They could have found more hair, more DNA and other evidence there at the scene of the house.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, he is joining us from Denver tonight.
Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. Very quickly, if a body was decomposing in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, is it possible to find human cells from the decomposition fluids?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, sure it is. Sure it is.
GRACE: Explain. How would it work?
ARNALL: If the body was placed in the trunk immediately after death, it might take a couple of days to decompose in that type of heat. During that time period, the cells that begin to slip off the body could be deposited on the carpet.
If the body had been buried in the backyard and was in the process of decomposition before it was placed in the trunk, then when it was placed in the trunk, the -- there`s a process of skin slippage and.
GRACE: Right.
ARNALL: . and softening of the tissue, that`s going to deposit on the carpet in a relatively short period of time, perhaps minutes. So there`s going to be cells and fluid from that body on the carpet.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, yes, no -- from those fluids, from DNA, can scientists determine whether the body is dead or alive?
ARNALL: No, I don`t think they can determine.
GRACE: OK.
ARNALL: Well, in the sense, they can`t determine whether it was dead or alive when it`s placed there. But it`s obvious, if the body is decomposed, it`s dead.
GRACE: Correct. Correct.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us in addition to Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony, is Susan Moss out of New York, Randy Zelin, New York, Daniel Horowitz out of San Francisco.
Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If your child is missing, there isn`t anyone you wouldn`t tell your full story to again and again and again.
Her silence is deafening. This is all a bunch of hooey. And I think we`re going to find that out in the end.
GRACE: Randy Zelin?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As a parent I agree with Susan. As a lawyer I couldn`t disagree more. Your obligation is to your client. Your obligation, as Jose said, is to protect the best interest of your client. You don`t help the prosecution prosecute your client.
GRACE: To Daniel Horowitz - Daniel, you and I have both been victims of violent crime. (INAUDIBLE). Weigh in.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it seems like this case has (INAUDIBLE) Mr. Baez`s client about (INAUDIBLE).
BAEZ: . told the police, she would have told me. She is most interested in getting her daughter found. And that`s something that we`re trying and we`re focusing on right now.
GRACE: Everyone, we are switching gears -- Mr. Baez, thank you very much for being with us.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Len Wawczak and his wife Paula Stark wore a wire and recorded their conversations with Drew Peterson. They tell the "Chicago Sun-Times" this went on for seven months.
The couple says they became suspicious after Stacy Petersons disappeared last October and agreed to help state police with the investigation. They say Peterson mocked the police investigating the death of his third wife Kathleen Savio whose death was originally ruled an accidental drowning.
According to Paula Stark, Peterson said, quote, "She was in a dry bathtub," and that he called police a bunch of idiots.
After Stacy disappeared, Savio`s body was exhumed and her death was reclassified as a homicide. Wawczak says Peterson commented, quote, "I should have had that, expletive, cremated. It would have cost me less and I wouldn`t be going through this trouble."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Is he caught on tape?
Out to our producer Ellie Jostad. Elli, in summary, tell me what is allegedly on the tape and where they came from.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, here`s the thing. We don`t know what is on the tape. But two friends of Drew Peterson, a married couple who says they`ve known him for 16 years, they now say that they agreed to work with the Illinois state police, wear a wire and secretly recorded conversations with Drew Peterson.
Now they say they became suspicious when Drew said things like he called the cops investigating Kathleen Savio`s death a bunch of f-ing idiots. He later said after they exhumed Kathleen Savio he said something to his friend, allegedly, I should have just had her cremated. It would have been cheaper and saved me a lot of trouble.
Another friend says -- the woman in this couple says that Drew Peterson even asked her to run away with him to Kentucky where, presumably, he could escape the law enforcement and media.
GRACE: Ellie, thank you.
To Joe Hosey with the "Herald News" and author of "Fatal Vows" -- Joe, I found most interesting that he said he would never really be prosecuted on this until after her body was found and then he would have already escaped by acquittal and double jeopardy.
JOE HOSEY, HERALD NEWS, INTERVIEWED FRIENDS CLAIMING THEY TAPED PETERSON: Yes, Nancy. That`s what Len and Paula are alleging, yes.
GRACE: And what is his reaction to the revelation he was caught on tape?
HOSEY: I spoke to him several time -- three times after this, and he -- as he seems to usually do, you know, he calls her character into question and says they were after money, they`re creating -- you know, the (INAUDIBLE) sold the story to the "Enquirer" now they`re trying to capitalize off this thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Is Drew Peterson finally tape?
Out to Joe Hosey with "The Herald News" -- Joe, can we confirm the secret tapes actually exist?
HOSEY: I believe so, yes.
GRACE: How?
HOSEY: I can`t say that at this time.
GRACE: OK. So you have a source.
To Ellie, what`s the most damning thing in the tapes?
JOSTAD: Well, I think what you mentioned, Nancy, Drew Peterson said that he wasn`t (INAUDIBLE)
HOSEY: Paula would carry it in her purse. She also had it inserted into her bra. Lenny had it under his shirt.
GRACE: And is it true, Ellie, that according to this couple, former friends of Petersons, he actually asked the woman to model his dead wife`s by bikinis and fur coat?
JOSTAD: That`s right. She says that he asked her to model Stacy`s clothing. He also would try to hug her, try to kiss her, whisper in her ear, I love you. That`s what she`s claiming right now.
GRACE: OK. Well, Ellie referred to bikinis as clothing, but thank you, Ellie.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Staff Sergeant David Julian, 31, Evanston, Wyoming, killed, Iraq, on a third tour, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Loves fishing, hunting, leaves behind parents, Wally and Bonnie, stepmother Lyn, six siblings, wife Erin, and baby daughter Elizabeth.
David Julian, American hero.
Thanks for being with us everyone. A special good night tonight from Georgia, friends of the show, the Fulton County DA`s office, junior DA program. Aren`t they beautiful? And they`re all going to grow up to be little crime fighters.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
