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Gunman Opens Fire Inside a Church; Man Dies After a Cop Tasered Him Nine Times; Barack Obama Went to the Doctor for a Hip X-Ray; Yosemite Wildfire; Two American Kids in a Pakistan Madrassa Held Against Their Will?
Aired July 27, 2008 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: A gunman opens fire inside a church where children are performing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are praying for this congregation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: New details tonight on a tragedy in Tennessee.
Tasered by police, not once but nine times. A black suspect is dead; a white officer is off the beat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cover up for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No doubt. Not doubt. Nothing but a cover- up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A case of race or tragic consequence.
And advertising for Islam? One law maker thinks New York City subways are not the right spot for the message. We'll jump into the middle of this one.
Two American kids in a Pakistan madrassa, held against their will? CNN investigates claims by a congressman and a filmmaker.
Then black in America. Young people speak out about CNN's thought-provoking documentary tonight in the CNN NEWSROOM.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Let's start off tonight with a question that is horrific. Did you go to church today? Well, if you didn't, you probably know someone who did.
So, imagine this, you're in church, a gunman barges right in and opens fire. That is exactly what happened in a church today in East Tennessee. Two people are dead. Seven others are hurt. Most of them critically. And the man who allegedly hurt them, who shot them, is in the hands of Knoxville police. Right now, CNN's Rusty Dornin is talking to the people who survived the chaos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When parishioners at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church first heard the crack of gunfire, they thought it might be part of the children's play they were watching. But confusion gave way to panic as many church members dove under pews or tried to plea as the man continued to fire a 12-gauge shotgun into the congregation.
STEVE DREVIK, WITNESS: Everyone is in the fellowship hall. They've identified people who actually, you know, didn't hit the deck and people who saw the shooter in a little more detail. Police were taking statements from them.
DORNIN: Witnesses say when a white male first appeared at the door, he fired a shotgun point blank at one church member, and then began firing randomly. According to witnesses, the suspect, now identified as 58-year-old Jim Atkinson, paused to reload his gun, then he was tackled by two church members.
Less than five minutes after the 911 call came in, Knoxville police have the suspect in custody. Reportedly, Atkinson never aimed at the children, but parishioners say some were traumatized by the incident.
KATIE WILSON, TENNESSEE VALLEY UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH: Well, some of them are probably confused about it (INAUDIBLE). And then, there were some who were crying, kind of going back and forth, not sure because of their families.
DORNIN: Investigators say the timeline of the shooting may get a boost from several people videotaping the children's play.
CHIEF STERLING OWEN, KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE POLICE: It's part of what we're reviewing to see exactly what it does show. For those of you who had some experience in this, you know oftentimes you believe a video camera captures more than it actually does but we're going to review each and every one of them.
DORNIN: The church's web site describes it as a community that has worked for social change since the 1950s including the segregation women's right and gay right. Positions that have been sometimes controversial in this community.
No motive has been released, but the FBI is insisting the investigation and a spokesman tell CNN any time there is a shooting at a church, there's the possibility of a hate crime.
DEPUTY CHIEF BILL ROEHL, KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE POLICE: It's terrible that you come to church to do worship and something like this occurs. It's very horrendous.
DORNIN: Atkinson reportedly did not belong to the church leaving the ultimate question, why?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Why is certainly a good question. Our Rusty Dornin joins us now from Nashville, Tennessee.
Rusty, you're question as I said, why? What do we know though about these victims?
DORNIN: Well, the two victims that have died since the shooting, one, 63-year-old Linda Kraeger, also 60-year-old Greg McKendry. We know a little bit more about him. He's the one we have a picture of.
He was an usher at the church and there are reports by different witnesses that he may have put himself -- he was the first person encountered by the shooter. That he may actually put himself in front of the shooter to act as some kind of a human shield. He died very shortly after the shooting.
And those are really the only two we know about. The interesting thing, Don, is the police got here so fast. They claim they got here within three minutes after they were called. That there was a complete lockdown in the church so you didn't have as many of these eyewitnesses coming out to talk to the media as you might have in another instance.
LEMON: CNN's Rusty Dornin. Rusty, on top of this story. She will be following it for us throughout the evening and also tomorrow here in the CNN NEWSROOM and on AMERICAN MORNING.
Rusty, we appreciate your reporting. Thank you very much.
We're going to get you now to New Mexico. The remnants of Hurricane Dolly causing all sorts of problems. And parts of New Mexico, more than six inches of rain have caused flash flooding here. Many other homes are under water. Some 300 people had to evacuate and two other people are reported missing. Some campers were awakened when their tents began floating down the river.
You're looking at live pictures now and tonight we are hearing the rain has started again. You can call that insult to injury.
Another community. This one half a world away. Also, reeling from sudden violence tonight.
Well, this is Istanbul, Turkey. Two explosions. One of them enormous. Went off in a suburban neighborhood killing at least 50 people and wounding more than 150 people. It happened at about 10:00 at night on a crowded street. No claim of responsibility. Istanbul's governor calls it, this is a quote, "an act of terror."
A smash and grab robbery at an Indianapolis gun shop. I wonder if the robbers knew they were on surveillance camera the entire time that they were doing this. Watch this video. It begin shall we say smashingly. Well, they probably knew they were on video since they clearly put a lot of thought into those disguise. As the camera captures three guys cleaning out the store of assault riffles and hand guns after crashing a stolen car right through the gun shop wall.
The police got good IDs on all the robbers, of the five suspects connected to the robbery. Four are in police custody tonight.
Listen to this. Count this. Nine. That's how many times a man tasered while in police custody and he was handcuffed at the time. Now, there are allegations the incident was racially motivated.
From the CNN special investigations unit, here's Drew Griffin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Winnfield, Louisiana is just a 45-minute drive in this small town of Jena, where nooses in a tree spark racial outrage last year over black and white justice in a small Louisiana town. Now, Winnfield could be a new racial flash point. Attorney Carol Powell-Lexing says police racism led to a murder.
You think there's a cover up?
CAROL POWELL-LEXING, FAMILY ATTORNEY: No doubt. No doubt. Nothing but a cover up.
GRIFFIN: Six months ago, a 21-year-old black man named Baron Pikes, a cousin of one of the Jena 6, Mychal Bell, died in police custody at the Winnfield Police Department. How it happened has officially remained a secret until now.
Coroner Ralph Williams has just released his findings. A white officer armed with a taser, he said, violated every Winnfield police procedure on taser use, ultimately killing a black man in handcuffs.
What is a man down on the ground handcuffed behind his back getting repeatedly shot?
DR. RANDOLPH WILLIAMS, WINN PARISH, LA CORONER: Well, it's a homicide.
GRIFFIN: For months, police have said Pikes may have been on drugs, may have fought with police, may have somehow caused his own death. The coroner says none of it is true.
He wasn't on PCP?
WILLIAMS: No, he was not.
GRIFFIN (on camera): There's no crack in his system.
WILLIAMS: No, he did not.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): He was a healthy man? WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRIFFIN: He weighed 247 pounds. And according to the coroner, he was having trouble following police orders to get up so officers Scott Nugent pulled out his taser, like this one, and fired.
WILLIAMS: The first shot was fired at 1:37 p.m. And you have six shots fired by 1:40. So, in three minutes or less than three minutes, actually.
GRIFFIN: That was only the beginning. He was loaded into a patrol car and taken to police headquarters.
(on camera): According to the coroner, when they got here to the police station, Baron Pikes now in the back seat, handcuffed, already tasered six times wouldn't or couldn't get out of the back seat fast enough for Officer Nugent. So, Nugent tasered him again. Shot number seven is what they call a dry stunt.
The taser placed directly onto Baron Pikes right interior chest and fired. And still it wasn't over.
WILLIAMS: After he got the dry stun to the chest, he was thrown out of the car on to the concrete and then electroshocked two more times.
GRIFFIN: Pikes family has hired Attorney Carol Powell-Lexing who says race played a role in Pike's death.
POWELL-LEXING: It is very important to stay vigilant regarding these types of cases on the injustice perpetrated on the disadvantage.
LT. CHARLES CURRY: I don't see where race caused his death. I don't see where race cause this situation to start.
GRIFFIN: Lieutenant Charles Curry is trying his best to diffuse racial tension, but he can't explain why a black handcuffed suspect was tasered so many times by a white officer. The city council has fired Nugent. He's appealing. His attorney told CNN, the officer followed procedure.
PHILLIP TERRELL, SCOTT NUGENT'S ATTORNEY: He tried to (INAUDIBLE), he was handcuffed. He tried to pull him to the ground, repeatedly fell to the ground. The only thing he could have done other than to say, "OK, we're going to let you go" is to beat him or tase him. He did the right thing.
GRIFFIN: Any day now the district attorney here will decide if officer Nugent did the right thing or if the death of Baron Pikes was a crime.
Drew Griffin, CNN, Winnfield, Louisiana.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: So, what do you think? Tasered nine times. Was the police officer justified or was it murder? We'll talk to both sides.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. You saw the story just before the break. We told you about a man who died after being tasered repeatedly in Louisiana. He was tasered actually nine times. The police officer involved is now under investigation. Carol Powell-Lexing is the attorney for the man who died, Baron Pikes. She joins us now from Jackson, Mississippi.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
POWELL-LEXING: Thank you.
LEMON: And the attorney for Officer Scott Nugent, Phillip Terrell, joins us by phone from Pineville, Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Terrell as well.
OK, so you saw the report. And we were asking -- we asked the question, and so did Drew Griffin in that report, did he do the right thing? Did the officer do the right thing, or is this murder?
Mr. Terrell?
TERRELL: Well, the question as to whether it's murder, murder in Louisiana is a crime that requires a specific intent to kill the individual who passes away.
I think that clearly this is not the legal definition of murder, and I think that you would be hard-pressed under any stretch of the facts to call it a crime.
LEMON: Here's the question that anyone would ask. Is it necessary to tase anyone nine times? Are there any circumstances, especially with someone being handcuffed and already down?
TERRELL: You know, Don --
POWELL-LEXING: Don, let me answer that.
LEMON: Go ahead.
POWELL-LEXING: Let me answer that question. In this particular case, it was totally unnecessary. Non-lethal force could have been used to handle that particular situation. Any time a man is tased within 450,000 volts of electricity, to their body that caused their death, that is unnecessary.
TERRELL: Carol, you're wrong about the facts. It's only 50,000 volts and it does not go through the body.
POWELL-LEXING: Times nine. Times nine times.
TERRELL: No, Ma'am, it's less than that. The facts are not --
POWELL-LEXING: The coroner's report said nine times. Nine times with 50,000 volts of electrical shock each time. If you multiply that, you have 450,000 volts of electricity going through a person's body. In answer to that question, it was not necessary.
TERRELL: May I respond, Ma'am?
LEMON: Yes, go ahead.
TERRELL: The answer to that is -- first of all, the coroner is incorrect. And Carol, you (INAUDIBLE) here in the other night when the chief testified and you know as well as I do --
(CROSSTALK)
POWELL-LEXING: Well, I also was there and I heard the officer there was on the scene testify also.
LEMON: OK, listen.
POWELL-LEXING: And his testimony --
LEMON: Let me jump in here because the question is going to be -- again, do you think the officer did the right thing? And that's the initial question that I asked here. And I don't think I got the answer to that.
TERRELL: The officer followed -- the officer followed the --
POWELL-LEXING: The answer is no.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mr. Terrell.
TERRELL: To repeat my answer, the officer followed a protocol. And if you -- within a week, I will have the testimony from the court reporter of the police chief. And I think you will find that telling and I think probably when Carol has the transcript of the police chief's testimony that she will be satisfied as to who is at fault in this matter now.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: All right, Phillip Terrell and Carol Powell-Lexing, we'll have to leave it at that. We thank you both and we hope you have a good evening.
TERRELL: Thank you.
LEMON: And we're going to be following this and investigating to see how it turns out. So, again, thanks to both of you.
TERRELL: Thank you very much.
POWELL-LEXING: Thanks.
LEMON: We have been receiving a lot of feedback this week on our special documentary series. It's called "Black in America." Maybe you saw it here on CNN. It's run several times. Each time, it gets huge numbers. Obviously, a huge interest in this.
And we have assembled a panel of college students to talk about their impressions. And we want to tell you, we've been hearing a lot of response from black America. What is white America saying about this?
Well, this panel, we had both white students and black students. And in general, they agreed the documentary captured elements of what it means to be black in America. But not all of what they had to say was positive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
APRIL CURRY, SENIOR, SPELMAN COLLEGE: If you're going to call a segment "Black in America," I want to see the experience -- I want to see a wide range of experiences. I'm black and in America. And I didn't see anyone that represented me, my background, or anyone else that I know.
CAMILLE BURNEY, SENIOR, SPELMAN COLLEGE: I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't, I'm sorry.
LEMON: No, go ahead.
BURNEY: They did show African-American women who are going to college. You and I are both African-American women going to college and pursing careers. Not only that.
The segment about the young women who was having unprotected sex with her boyfriend who she did not completely trust, that is a big issue affecting the black American community right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That is just a small sampling of what our panel had to say. Make sure you join me tomorrow in the CNN NEWSROOM for our complete conversation. As always, NEWSROOM p.m. gets started at 1:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN. Don Lemon, Kyra Phillips, we'll see you tomorrow, 1:00 p.m. Eastern. Make sure you join us.
Barack Obama just back from a whirlwind trip impacting a lot, and tonight, he had to go to the doctor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Here are the facts about this wildfire. It is so big. It is taking hundreds of firefighters, hundreds of firefighters to battle it. It is out of control near California's Yosemite National Park. It has grown to more than 18,000 acres and it is threatening some 2,000 homes. Hundreds have had to evacuate.
The fire was sparked by someone, guess what, doing target practice shooting and fueled by dry timber that hasn't burned in a century. In the meantime, 4,000 people had to evacuate the Los Angeles zoo because of a fast-moving brush fire in nearby group.
Also, some condors at the breeding center had to be relocated and the fire is now fully contained.
Now on to CNN's meteorologist Jacqui Jeras.
Jacqui, we're talking about a lot of fire here. We're talking about water.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. We've got a lot going on this weekend, Don. If you took the weekend off, you've missed a lot. We're going to catch you up here.
The good news is is that weather conditions are not really critical across parts of the southwest for these fires to continue to burn. You know, the heat is out there. It is certainly hot. It is certainly dry. But the wind has not been terrible out of the west about 10 miles per hour or so.
The water has been the big problem across the four corners region and believe it or not, we're still talking about the remnants of Dolly. Yes, remember the hurricane? There you can see the showers and thundershowers along the I-25 corridor. And Ruidoso still getting some spotty action here.
This is where the major flooding occurred in the overnight and early morning hours and this has been ongoing now throughout the day today. You're looking at a picture from KAOT TV. They are located in Albuquerque, but they are on the scene in Ruidoso. 300 people evacuated from their homes. And from camp grounds, more than six inches of rain had fallen here.
A huge thank is going to be shout out to our iReporters. Some of whom we're able to bring in pictures of this even before our affiliates were able to get out on the scene. There you can see the real Ruidoso out of its bank there. John Harrell brought us these pictures earlier this afternoon.
Other weather into the northeast, extremely strong storms just ripped on through here, Don, and when that happened, it creates just a mess at the airports. We have delays still at this time, at JFK, more than five hours. And you know that's just going to snowball and continue, unfortunately, into those business traveler's plans for tomorrow.
LEMON: Jacqui Jeras, thank you very much. Hope you had a great weekend.
JERAS: Thank you.
LEMON: He has been to church and he has been to a synagogue. So, why has not Barack Obama visited a mosque lately? And why did he had to go to the doctor tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have visited churches and synagogues. When will you -- or is it in the plans for you to visit a mosque.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I have to say, this is a classic example of a no-win situation, right? If you were a Muslim and somebody consistently said you were a Christian, I suspect that you would want to have that corrected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was Senator Barack Obama earlier today for an audience of minority journalists. Now, with his high-profile overseas trip behind him and just 100 days left until Election Day, he's going to be facing a lot more questions like that.
CNN political editor Mark Preston joins me now for "Preston on Politics."
That's a tough question but he's going to face some tougher questions than that to come.
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: Yes. I mean, there's no question about it. Look, there's only 100 days left, you know. In addition to Barack Obama having to really try to convince the American public that he has the foreign policy credits, that he knows what to do on domestic issues, he is still going to have to answer the question about race, Don. Is he black enough? Is he not black enough? That, you know, when is he going to go to a mosque?
So, really, he faces a number of challenges that no other presidential nominee, at least in my time frame, has ever had to deal with.
LEMON: Interesting, because I remember going to the same convention last year in Las Vegas and filing a report on -- is he black enough? And that question, he is still being dogged by that question. We'll talk about that a little bit more in the weeks to come.
But I want to ask you about this. We all know that he just got back from this lengthy trip overseas, Mark. And Senator McCain criticized Obama while he was there. I want you to listen to a new McCain ad and then I want you to respond to it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: And now, he made time to go to the gym but canceled the visit with wounded troops. Seems that Pentagon wouldn't allow him to bring cameras. John McCain is always there for our troops. McCain, country first.
VOICE OF JOHN MCCAIN: I'm John McCain and I approved this message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You know when I saw that for the first time, I thought it was like a spoof almost. When just listening to it -- seriously. But it is a serious ad and many people are looking at it, you know, in that manner. In that matter, a serious fashion.
PRESTON: Absolutely. And what John McCain is running on this national security platform. Look, he's the guy who was a P.O.W. He's the guy who has served in the Armed Forces. That's not what Barack Obama has done. And John McCain is really trying to hammer home that he's the guy that should lead America and he is the guy to be the commander-in-chief.
And what he's trying to do with that ad is he's trying to really touch a -- I think part of the Republican base that might be sleeping right now to say, look, we need to get behind John McCain. That's where I think that ad was directed.
LEMON: OK. Good. Hey, listen, I'm getting some new information in. And we're a little pressed on time, Preston. Kind of a play on words. I could have done better than that.
We're hearing Barack Obama went to the doctor for a hip X-ray. Getting new information on that?
PRESTON: Yes. And what we're hearing right now, Don, is that he had some X-rays and he said that it is a little basketball injury. You know, we've seen him play hoops, you know, whenever he goes out on the campaign trail. So, we don't exactly know what it is, but he has left the hospital and he seems fine from right now.
LEMON: All right. Yes, I'm getting word that he went to the University of Chicago Medical Center and there's actually video of him coming out and he shouted, "Just fine. Small X-rays. Everything is OK."
We hope to get that video in. And if we get it before we end this newscast. We'll bring it to you.
Mark Preston, appreciate it, sir.
PRESTON: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
Time now for our regular visit with a group of voters who have been newly energized by this year's presidential race.
Our Rick Sanchez usually sits in this seat -- well, he headed to Memphis and he talked with evangelical college students.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): There does seem to be a movement of foot among many Christians who are saying, God gave us this planet and it's our job to be the protectors of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's a great initiative because we are supposed to be stewards of the creation. So, I mean, yes, if we can take steps to take care of environment. I'm all for it.
SANCHEZ: Do you worry about global warming?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. Global warming is simply (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're supposed to be stewards of the earth. We're supposed to take care of it, and we should be taking good care of it. But we have dominion over it, too. And we need to -- if we can use it to our benefit, we should be using it, but we also need to take care of it. There's a happy medium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cutting down trees to print bibles. Destroying coral reefs to get a little bit more gas, not OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In terms of like drilling for a thing, I think, if it needs to be done, and then we feel like we're pushed into a corner where we can't rely on the Middle East for oil anymore. And places like Venezuela are not looking too happy either. So, we've got to find our own source.
SANCHEZ: Hydrogen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, I'm all for new things.
SANCHEZ: Hydrogen fuel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If an efficient alternative bits and abundance supply. If we could find something like that, that would be the best, in my book.
SANCHEZ: Stem cell research.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The thing that bothers me about stem cell research is a lot of people act like -- oh, we have to take so many fetuses and wouldn't that be very synergistic with abortion and everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's typically different issues. With embryonic, it is often destroying fetuses and that is, if you say abortion is morally wrong, you have to say that's morally wrong, too.
SANCHEZ: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But with adult stem cells, there's no problem with it and they work better any way because embryonic stem cells are designed to grow and adult stem cells are designed to repair.
SANCHEZ: It's interesting because as I talk to you guys, you guys are like beyond the politics. I mean, you look at the issues but you don't necessarily buy into the politics of the moment from either the left or the right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. In the nature of politics is constantly be changing to please people. So, I can't completely put my faith and everything into politics because it's going to change tomorrow. So, I've got to stick with issues in whichever candidate in November most correctly aligns with the things that I'm convicted about, the things that I believe, that would be the one that I vote for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see their past experience and the things they've done in the past, and see if they really are doing what they say, then I think that you probably should look at what they do more than what they say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. I mean, it's important and it has a big effect on you and everybody else. So, you have to try to make your best judgment. But you're human so you can't know that you are going to be right and they are human so you can't know that they are going to be perfect. So, you just have to do your best and hope they don't bite you.
SANCHEZ: So, you guys are going to call him as you see him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You're going to go with the issues and what's in your heart and what you think you see.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's an important decision that you possibly can and hope for the best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: First time voters with CNN's Rick Sanchez.
OK, I got a question for you. Two American kids held against their will at a hard-lined Muslim school? That's what a filmmaker and a congressman say, but is it true? We investigate.
And a plan to post Islamic ads in the New York City Subway system causes a pure. We talked to both sides.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: As you watch or listen to this next story, think about everything you've heard about Islam, everything you've heard about Islam, and then you make the judgment for yourself.
Because millions of people who jump on the New York City subway car, this fall will likely see ads promoting Islam. They are meant to shed light on a misunderstood faith. But as CNN's Mary Snow reports, all kinds of questions are swirling around about one of the promoters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Head scarf? Islam?
These subway ads are designed to battle negative images of Islam. They aren't even put up yet but they've already sparked this "New York Post" headline "Jihad Train." "The Post" story focuses not so much on the message as the messenger, an Imam who's now promoting the project to spread awareness about Islam to millions of subway riders. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IMAM SIRAJ WAHHAJ, AL-TAQWA MOSQUE: Imagine them seeing the word Muhammad. Imagine them seeing the word Islam. Imagine them seeing the word hijab.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Imam Siraj Wahhaj draws attention because he's among 170 unindicted co-conspirators in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing case. And he served as a character witness to the man convicted of being the mastermind of that bombing, Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman.
IMAM SIRAJ WAHHAJ, AL-TAQWA MOSQUE: The context of me being a character witness for Sheikh Abdel-Rahman is what we knew about him before the incident.
SNOW: A former U.S. prosecutor in the case says while Wahhaj was on a list of unindicted co-conspirators, he was never charged.
ANDREW MCCARTHY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR (ON THE PHONE): I think the list is probably an interesting footnote to people. I get asked about it every couple of years when some story or another about Wahhaj comes up. But I, you know, I think it's -- the list is a tempest in a teapot.
SNOW: Wahhaj says while he may be a controversial figure, he was also the first Muslim to lead a prayer before the session of the House of Representatives in 1991. But he admits there are things he said he regrets, such as calling the FBI and CIA terrorists.
WAHHAJ: What I was saying is that no, not that all of the FBI are terrorists or the CIA are terrorists. But there are some elements in there. So if you want to accuse some Muslims, OK. These Muslims did that. But don't undermine the entire faith. That's really the message.
SNOW: The group behind the ads, the Islamic Circle of North America, says it welcomes the Imam's promotion of their campaign. They say the way the Imam is portrayed is often the way Islam is portrayed. The ads are slated to go up in 1,000 subway cars in September to coincide with Ramadan.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. So, that's New York. It could happen in your neighborhood or you're town. Could it?
We're going to go right into the middle of this debate. Congressman Peter King and Islamic activist Azeem Khan square off right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: So, before the break, we told you about the backlash over a group planning to promote Islam through ads on New York City subways. Well, Congressman Peter King, a ranking member of the Homeland Security Committee wants the ad scrapped.
King and a spokesman for the Islamic Circle Azeem Khan joins me now right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
OK, let's take a look at these ads that are suppose to go off in New York City subways.
What is wrong with educating people about Islam, Congressman King?
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Actually, nothing wrong with having ads. There's nothing wrong with educating people about Islam. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in this country are outstanding citizens.
The fact is, though, one of the main persons behind this ad, Imam Wahhaj, is a person who testified as a character witness for the Blind Sheik who is right now serving a life sentence in prison for planning the -- blowing up of landmarks throughout New York City.
This Imam testified as a character witness. Testifying as the character of the Blind Sheik. The man who was convicted and serving a life sentence for attempting to -- conspiring to blow up buildings throughout New York City. He also has said that democracy will crumble and Islam will triumph. He has said the FBI and the CIA are the real terrorists.
And to me, what this is, these ads are an attempt to give credibility and respectability to people such as Wahhaj and I think it's wrong for government institutions such as the MTA to allow this to happen. (INAUDIBLE) and show exactly who this person is and who is behind it.
LEMON: Though he did apologize for saying that the FBI are terrorists. (INAUDIBLE), do you want to jump in here?
AZEEM KHAN, ISLAMIC CIRCLE OF NORTH AMERICA: The Islamic Circle of North America and our 877-WHY-ISLAM project had put together this ad campaign, which is an information campaign to help promote understanding of Islam and bring people of different faiths together where we provide a channel for people to ask whatever questions they may have.
Imam Siraj Wahhaj is simply a community leader who endorses the idea of the project.
LEMON: But he's a community leader, too, again -- and I have to tell you what Congressman King said is right. He was one of the 170 potential co-conspirators of the 1993 bombing.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And he testified on behalf of Omar Abdel-Rahman.
KHAN: The language used by U.S. prosecutor Mary Jo White in court was that this list is a list of maybe alleged unindicted co- conspirators. So, there's three degrees of doubt in that statement that she made.
LEMON: Congressman, you have sent a letter demanding that New York City's Metropolitan Transit Authority reject these ads. What are you hoping to get from that?
KING: What I'm hoping is that these ads been taken down, especially had these ads appearing on New York City subways during the time will be commemorating the 7th anniversary of the September 11th bombings is offensive to the families, is offensive to the memory of those who are killed that day.
KHAN: First of all, you have to get your facts straight. These ads will be appearing from September 15th to October 15th. And even if they did overlap on September 11th, that's no excuse to spread hatred, fear, and suspicion towards American Muslims.
And it's ironic that one of the founders of the WHY-ISLAM project died in the terror attack that day. So, Mr. King's comments are insult to him, his family and the intelligence of all New Yorkers who can decide for themselves.
LEMON: OK. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's going to have to be the last word because we're running out of time. Azeem Khan and Congressman Peter King from New York. We appreciate you joining us this evening in the CNN NEWSROOM. Thank you, both.
KING: Thank you.
LEMON: Well, they were known as the Karachi kids. They were allegedly being held against their will in a Pakistani madrassa. It was a shock to their father, but was any of it true. Was it even true? A CNN investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Most people's first response would be no way. No way. But is it possible that American citizens, young boys are being held against their will in a radical Islamic environment overseas? It is a notion that several U.S. congressmen believe is true and supported by a documentary filmed three years in the making.
CNN's Reza Sayah traveled to Karachi, Pakistan to see for himself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a documentary with an alarming message for America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The story of the subjugation and indoctrination of youth behind the secrecy of these walls.
SAYAH: Two American teenagers held captive in a madrassa, a Pakistani religious school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I miss my family so much. I hate the food here.
SAYAH: Accusations of a Taliban-linked school training the boys to hate America.
REP. MIKE MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: It very much got my attention.
SAYAH: When U.S. Congressman Mike McCaul saw the film "Karachi Kids," he was convinced.
MCCAUL: It was clearly being held against their will.
SAYAH: CNN first learned about the boys when the filmmaker, Imran Raza, offered CNN the documentary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the next several years, Noor and Mehoob will be immersed into a world in which every moment of their lives will be spent actualizing the Deobandi ambitions and becoming emissaries of their totalitarian doctrine.
SAYAH: The film focuses on American teens Noor and Mehoob Khan. In 2004, their father, a Pakistani-born taxi driver in Atlanta, sent the boys to Karachi, to one of 13,000 registered religious schools in Pakistan, where students spend years studying every detail of their faith.
But in the film, Raza describes the teens as captives, being force-fed radical jihad. He started a campaign to return the boys to the U.S., Congressman McCaul offered to help, asking Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf to intervene.
MCCAUL: When I watched the documentary, they wanted out. It's a very radical madrassas. The fact that bin Laden has spoken at this madrassas and was associated with it is one piece of evidence.
SAYAH: In fact, some Pakistani madrassas have been linked to extremist Islamic groups. When we first spoke to the filmmaker, we asked him if this was one of them.
IMRAN RAZA, DIRECTOR, "KARACHI KIDS": There are connections between this institution and the Taliban. Osama bin Laden spoke there before September 11th. And these are things that are not being told to the parents.
SAYAH: We came here to Jamia Binoria madrassa in Karachi looking for the two boys from Atlanta. It didn't take us long to find them. They were packing to head back home.
(on camera): This is your room?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SAYAH (voice-over): The two boys, now 16 and 17, clearly missed Atlanta.
(on camera): So that's the food that you miss most, pizza?
MEHOOB KHAN, SON: Hot wings.
SAYAH: Hot wings.
(voice-over): While the previous four years had been tough academically, Mehoob was proud at what he had achieved. Hafez, the memorization of the entire Quran.
(on camera): How has it been here, how have these four years been here?
M. KHAN: The first year was difficult. The second year was a little difficult. Now, it's easy.
SAYAH: They say they train militants, they train people to hate the U.S. Have you seen any indication of that here?
M. KHAN: No. I haven't seen it for the four years I've been here. I haven't seen any of that stuff. People just -- they talk about Bush and they talk about a lot of presidents. But they never talk about like guns and stuff like that.
SAYAH (voice-over): The principal of the school, the mufti, agreed to answer questions. The first, were you holding the boys against their will?
MUFTI MUHAMMED NAEEM, JAMIA BINORIA PRINCIPAL (through translator): The children were staying of their own accord. We didn't force them to stay. This madrassa is not some jail.
SAYAH: And he insisted, despite what the documentary claims, the madrassa had never hosted Osama bin Laden and has never had ties to any militant jihadi groups, including the Taliban.
NAEEM (through translator): Look, there are two things, one is upbringing. And within that upbringing is included that children throughout their life don't use drugs, don't commit adultery, don't drink alcohol, don't do wrong things, don't steal, don't plunder.
Based on these principles, we tell them to live. Don't kill anyone. These are our principles. And these are what the religion teaches.
SAYAH: So, where does the truth lie? In the words of the mufti or the congressman and the filmmaker? We'll provide some answers when we come back.
(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're going to get you back to a story that no other term to use, but startling. That sends ripples from Pakistan to Capitol Hill. In it, two American boys, students at an Islamic school in Karachi -- well, were they kept against their will? A forced immersion in the Quran. Or what about that link to Osama bin Laden. There's also a lesson here about believing what you see on film. Again, CNN's Raza Sayah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SAYAH (voice-over): This is the Jamia Binoria madrassa, the religious school where the "Karachi Kids" documentary said Noor and Mehoob Khan were being held against their will, in a school, the film said with ties to the Taliban and al Qaeda.
We looked the boys' madrassa up in the International Crisis Group report on Pakistani religious schools. A report sent to us both by Congressman Mike McCaul's office and the documentary producer.
What we found was startling. Under the listing for Jamia Binoria madrassa, quote: "Because of its name, this madrassa is often confused with the more prominent and powerful Binori Town Madrassa."
This is that Binori Town Madrassa, just across the street. The ICG report says it is the fountainhead of Deobandi militancy countrywide. It also boasts close ties to the Taliban. Intelligence sources tell CNN this is the school where Osama bin Laden spoke before 9/11. It's not the school the boys went to.
Did the documentary filmmaker spend three years working on his film at the wrong madrassa? We asked the U.S. State Department what it knows about the school the boys attended. The answer, it is known to U.S. officials as a moderate institution, favored by Pakistani- Americans for its moderate and tolerant Islamic instruction.
In fact, it didn't take long for us to find pictures of the school's principal posing with the U.S. vice consul general in the local newspaper.
Two days after the boys returned to Atlanta, we went to talk to them and their father. He said he was astonished by the allegations made in the "Karachi Kids" documentary.
FAZAL KHAN, FATHER: They don't hold it to my children. If I knew something, something was going on or something wrong in there against the United States or against the British or against anything -- what do you think? I will be happy to send my children? No.
SAYAH: Fazal Khan says his main goal was to teach his boys to be good people.
F. KHAN: For this purpose I send my children to learn good morals, good behavior, good citizens. NOOR KHAN, SON: I wasn't brainwashed at all. The only thing they taught me how to do was read the Quran. That's it. That's the only thing I learned was how to read the Quran and a little bit of understanding it, about the history of Islam.
SAYAH: The boy's father tells CNN his sons never needed rescuing, just an exit visa. He was surprised when he saw media reports that a congressman freed his children from an allegedly radical madrassa without asking him if they needed rescuing.
By now the story had taken a life of its own. Congressman Mike McCaul even sponsored a congressional resolution asking the State Department to bring home all American children from Pakistani religious schools.
Some blogs even called the two boys "home-grown terrorists."
So, what does Congressman McCaul say about the apparent confusion of the two madrassas? He says, quote: "The Taliban is known to recruit from Deobandi madrassas, including Jamia Binoria, and train their recruits as terrorists. Any Americans among the recruits represent a potential threat to the United States because of their unfettered access to this country."
What does the filmmaker say now? He stands by his depiction of how the madrassa transformed the teens, but is re-editing his film to make some corrections.
RAZA: At the end of the day, I'm the director of this project. I have to take responsibility for the mistakes. I take responsibility for the error in the allegation that Osama bin Laden was there. I take responsibility for the error in that several of the Taliban leaders were there. Yes, I do need to take responsibility for these things in terms of these were errors that sort of spun out of control.
SAYAH: Raza tells CNN he has stopped printing his film. Meanwhile two boys sent to school in Pakistan to become better people, have returned home to learn that not everyone does their homework.
Reza Sayah, CNN, Karachi.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: It's a CNN special that everyone is talking about. "Black in America." We want to find out what you think and it turns out you have a whole lot to say about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Well, millions of people tuned in to the premier of CNN's "Black in America" series, and people from all over the country, all over the world, really, are watching and they are discussing this documentary. We are invited to a viewing party at 475 Barber and Salon right here in Atlanta.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having the courage and taking the initiative to be able to do this, I think it was a very challenging thing to have to be able to try to tell kind of a one story about a group of people. We are so diverse in our experiences.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN could have given a more historical context to the issues that we face as African-Americans through slavery, Jim Crow, and so on and so forth. And I think that would probably would have brought everything together, where people could understand why African-American are in the position that we are in today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it builds some good dialogue and of course until tomorrow (INAUDIBLE) water coolers around the country. People -- I believe that all races are talking about it. But I hope it's something much bigger than this. Much more powerful than just a dialogue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopefully, from this point on, we can bid on this to come up with some solutions so we can end the cycle that's going on with the black men.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I hope it sparks a new debate among African-American and white people so that now maybe they learn some things about us and maybe we can sit and have a dialogue on why you may have these stereotypes towards African-American and why we feel a certain way so that we can reconcile some this stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it an uneven playing field in America for blacks? Yes, I do agree with that. However, we know that. So, now, let's take that. We know it's twice as hard so be twice as good. Be twice is articulate. Be twice is educated. Take responsibility, make the choice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can have all the personal responsibility in the world. That doesn't mean that you're going to have the same opportunity and access as everybody else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to redefine what could live to our children and to our neighbors' children. You know, let them know that it is OK to be smart, it's OK to go to school, it's OK to live better.
We have to teach financing in the future. We don't talk about that very much. We need to teach them -- teach saving, teach the (INAUDIBLE). Teach that -- those kind of concept.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to not let it end here after this show is over tonight. We've got to continue to do things and reach out. Be able to help everybody together. You know, what I'm saying? I just think that, if we stay consistent and diligent in what we do and be persistent, I think we often grow as people. We don't even just have to be outnumbered talking black people. You just have to have that endurance to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We're not done just yet in the CNN NEWSROOM. More in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. So now we're done. I just wanted to say good night. I'm Don Lemon in for Rick Sanchez. Thank you for joining us. Make sure you stay tune for a CNN special, "Black in America." It starts right now.
