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Nancy Grace
Judge Denies Request to Bar Release of Jailhouse Tot Mom Phone Calls
Aired July 29, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for five long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. This girl just can`t quit talking! More stunning jailhouse phone calls released. At the same time, the mom`s lawyer calls an emergency hearing, fighting -- fighting -- to stop the release of these very phone calls. They don`t want the world to hear their client uncensored, unedited. Police still report little Caylee`s mom refuses to fully cooperate in the search for the 2-year-old girl. Tonight, the just- released bombshell audiotapes. And a new development. Is a recent break- in at the family home at the time of Caylee`s disappearance somehow connected? Tonight, where is 2-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: And I don`t want you to, you know, feel for any reason that, you know, we`re not on your side about anything because -- because we are about everything. We`re completely behind you.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CHILD: Oh, I know.
LEE ANTHONY: And being completely behind you, our entire focus, all our days, every second of every day is consumed with what can we do to find Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Oh, absolutely.
LEE ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?
CASEY ANTHONY: I did one time, yes, and that was actually the day that Mom had called the police.
LEE ANTHONY: OK. Do you remember what time you spoke to her?
CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was through a private call.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Private call. What a coincidence! Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing. Now, little Caylee hasn`t been seen in five long weeks. In the last hours, bombshell. More stunning jailhouse phone records just released. They`re phone calls from the jail. Caylee`s mom at the same time is fighting in court to stop the public from hearing her uncensored.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Did you ever call the baby-sitter on your cell phone or ever receive a call from the baby-sitter on your cell phone number?
CASEY ANTHONY: I most definitely did.
LEE ANTHONY: Can you give me any day or anything whenever you think you may have received that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Any specific day? God, a lot of the times, it was through text messages, so I mean, the number would show up even on that.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t think of any specifics. I mean, my days are all thrown together. At least I know what the day is today, but as far as from the last couple months, I have no exact, you know, time or date.
LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kids.
LEE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s unexplainable, that bond that you have with your kids, that bond that allows you to not report them missing for 31 days.
Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. More phone recordings from the jail, phone calls between Caylee`s mom and her family released. And at the same time, Rory, we find out the lawyer calls an emergency hearing to stop us, the public, from hearing his client unedited. What`s going on?
RORY O`NEILL, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony, says he wants the sheriff`s office and the jail to keep those recorded conversations secret, to keep them private until all the leads that may exist within those recorded conversations can be tracked down by the detectives on the case. He asked the judge, Please, keep these conversations sealed, do not release them to the media. The judge said, No way, 1st Amendment wins, these tapes will be made public.
GRACE: This ruling has just come down in a Florida courtroom. I`ve got with me right here the defense lawyer`s brief that he filed, begging -- ordering the court not to allow these phone calls to be released. We`re about to play them for you.
And he cites three reasons. One, releasing the video conferencing and phone calls could impede the investigation, two, kill the public`s willingness to call in tips -- translation, once you hear my client, you won`t want to call in tips anymore -- and three, releasing them would compromise the integrity of the right to a fair trial.
We`re going to unleash the lawyers and get their take on this, but first let`s take a listen to the phone calls.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Jose was going to, you know, think about stuff, how we were going to set things up over the weekend. He was going to be here with me when we bring them in. You know, and as far as what I answer, how I answer, you know, how all that goes down, he was going to figure that out this weekend. He was actually going to come up either today or tomorrow and bring a couple of the videos, I guess, for me to watch from some of the news stuff that`s been going on, I guess some of the talk shows, to try to update me on some of the stuff. He wanted me to get a good laugh, so...
LEE ANTHONY: Well, here`s the thing. Don`t put too much stock and faith into anything that the media is putting out there because you got to understand that...
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know.
LEE ANTHONY: ... they get information, they speculate on information and then, you know, they put something out there so they can fill their -- their clips.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I gave them the same resources that I gave you, and you found out a hundred more things than they did...
LEE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... and they were given the same information.
LEE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: So it`s just about the approach, I guess, and using the resources to their full extent.
LEE ANTHONY: We just need to figure out how we can be clear on whatever we`re giving to them, so even if we have to, you know, speak, you know, very direct, or if we have to -- you know, we can`t really speak in generalities with them, with anybody, is what I`m finding out.
CASEY ANTHONY: I gave them things multiple times. Each officer I gave the same information at least two or three times. I`ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with Mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same names. I mean, none of that has altered because it`s as is.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Peter Schaffer out of New York and Michael Mazzariello, also out of New York, defense attorney and host of "Closing Argument." He has a new show coming in 2009, "Street Court."
Peter Schaffer, Michael Mazzariello, first of all, have you read this motion by the defense, why we shouldn`t be able to hear these phone calls - - yes, no, Peter?
PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: What do you make of it?
SCHAFFER: Well, I mean, anybody that talks to somebody -- with a prisoner in jail knows those conversations are going to be recorded, but that doesn`t mean that they should come out and be released to the press. I mean, since when does information that may be subject at some point to being released -- since when is it released immediately? So I see his point...
GRACE: That doesn`t even make sense.
SCHAFFER: Well...
GRACE: No requirement under the law, Peter Schaffer, to hold public information for any period of time. In fact, typically, you can go down to the courthouse, you can trot on up to the record room, Michael Mazzariello, and read anything about the file, any case that has been on file.
What I`m trying to ask you guys is what you make of the three reasons he cites in this motion, why tonight the viewers, you and myself should not see or hear the videoconferencing or the jail phone calls? He cites three reasons. Basically, once you hear these phone calls, nobody`s going to want to call in tips. How does that strike you, Michael?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that he`s doing what he`s paid to do, Nancy. He has to zealously defend this woman. Anything that she says could compromise the case that he has, so he has to minimize it. She made these calls. Unbeknownst to her, she was being recorded. Now they`re recording...
GRACE: Well, excuse me, Michael. I`d like to correct you because I heard the phone calls, and at the very beginning, it says, Your phone call is being monitored.
MAZZARIELLO: Well, you hear that, and then as you`re talking and you`re in jail and you`re scared, you`re nervous, your child`s missing...
GRACE: She wasn`t nervous. She was totally PO`d because they wouldn`t give her boyfriend`s phone number.
MAZZARIELLO: Well, everyone reacts to things differently. The defense attorney did a good job filing the motion to try to prevent it. He`ll get another shot at it at pre-trial hearing, if this goes to trial, God forbid, they should find the child. And he did the best he could, Nancy. I mean, that`s what you do.
GRACE: OK. So that is your defense? He did the best he could.
MAZZARIELLO: No, Nancy, the defense is, is that he has to...
GRACE: Look, you know what?
MAZZARIELLO: He has to present...
GRACE: I gave you a shot. That was your answer. Thanks.
Very quickly, to Larry Sutton, editor at "People" magazine. Larry, thank you for being with us.
LARRY SUTTON, "PEOPLE": You`re welcome.
GRACE: And everybody, in the August 11 issue coming out, headline on the front page, "What happened to Caylee?" extensive reporting on this story. What do you make of these phone calls? We hear her saying to her brother, You found a hundred more things out about where Caylee is than the police...
SUTTON: And it`s maddening that he doesn`t tell you what those hundred more things were.
GRACE: Yes, what would those things be, and wouldn`t that be withholding evidence?
SUTTON: Absolutely true. Why aren`t you sharing that information with the police, with the authorities? Those phone calls will just drive you crazy because it`s playing the game of, I know something you don`t know, and you know, a child`s life is at stake.
GRACE: But why -- let`s go out to our shrink tonight, Dr. Patricia Saunders. Why? Why? Now, the brother didn`t necessarily say, yes, you`re right, I found out all kind of stuff that the police didn`t find. He seems to be just going along with her craziness.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it`s part of her being the center of attention, Nancy. This is all about her. And there`s no anxiety in any of these recordings, other than her being very angered by the fact that she can`t get the boyfriend`s number. Where is her worry about her missing child? It`s not there.
GRACE: Well, you know, probatively, I`m talking about the evidence -- let`s go out to Marc Klaas, child advocate and president of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, the fact that she`s saying, You found out all this information about where Caylee is -- what information? Why aren`t they giving it to police? The fact that she has to set up a meeting to -- and preview videos, probably of you talking on this show, Marc Klaas, but watch videos of the coverage of her case before she can cooperate with police? I smell a rat. I think it`s that rat.
MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Yes. I have to agree with what the psychiatrist just said. Her arrogance -- this woman is sitting in a jail cell, possibly facing the rest of her life in prison, and she seems to be trying to call the shots. She`s given everybody this business. I actually think her brother is doing a credible job of trying to get her back in line and trying to help in recovering the child. He keeps reminding her that this isn`t about her, that, in fact, this is about little Caylee.
This woman is a twisted woman, and I stand by what I said the very first night we covered it. She either killed that child, sold that child, or gave her away. And if she gets out of prison, we may never find out the true answer.
GRACE: Everyone, the judge just hours ago has refused to suppress phone calls made by Caylee`s mom from the jail to her family and others. The mother was in court today. You are seeing just-released video of that. This all went down just a couple of hours ago, where there, Jose Baez goes into court and demands the judge suppress these phone calls so you won`t hear them. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kids.
LEE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.
LEE ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?
CASEY ANTHONY: I did one time, yes, and that was actually the day that Mom had called the police.
LEE ANTHONY: Do you remember what time you spoke to her?
CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was through a private call.
LEE ANTHONY: Did you ever call the baby-sitter on your cell phone or ever receive a call from the baby-sitter on your cell phone number?
CASEY ANTHONY: I most definitely did.
LEE ANTHONY: Can you give me any day or anything whenever you think you may have received that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Any specific day? God, a lot of the times, it was through text messages, so I mean, the number would show up even on that.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t think of any specifics. I mean, my days are all thrown together. At least I know what the day is today, but as far as from the last couple months, I have no exact, you know, time or date.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I`m just thinking back over this -- back out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. I can tell you right now what my twins are wearing to bed tonight, and I`m not even there. How can she not know the last time she spoke to the baby-sitter that took off with her child, OK? That`s what I`m having a hard time taking in. What more can you tell me about this alleged break-in in the tool -- the tool shed of the family home?
O`NEILL: Well, late last month, it was Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, who had reported to the local sheriff`s department that someone had broken into the back yard shed and stolen a couple gasoline cans. This has happened a couple times in the past. Police were aware of it, or the detectives, rather, were aware of it. They don`t think it has any direct connection to the case, but it has happened, apparently, several times in the past, as well.
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you a couple questions, Rory O`Neill. Was there gas in the cans?
O`NEILL: Yes, there was gas in the cans.
GRACE: So isn`t it true, Rory O`Neill, that Casey Marie Anthony, the mother of Caylee, who at this time is only charged with child neglect -- not kidnapping, not murder, just child neglect -- isn`t it true that in the past, she`s actually taken gas from the family, gasoline from a car?
O`NEILL: That`s true. And actually, when it comes to the abandoned car, the one the cadaver dogs had hit on, it`s Cindy Anthony, the grandmother, who said that the car had been abandoned at that location because the car was out of gas, oddly enough. So these gas cans keep coming up. But the police say, as far as Caylee`s disappearance is concerned, there`s probably no direct connection.
GRACE: But Rory, how exactly would Casey Anthony steal gasoline from her family, siphon it out of their cars with, like, a garden hose?
O`NEILL: It may have just been from the cans in the back yard shed. We really haven`t learned too much exactly in any more detail about this gasoline.
GRACE: OK. So let me get this straight. To Peter Schaffer and Michael Mazzariello, defense attorneys joining us tonight. Peter, so I`m supposed to believe that after Casey Anthony has a history of stealing gasoline from her own family to fill up her car that some unknown intruder sneaks into their back yard, breaks the lock and steals gasoline?
SCHAFFER: Nancy, if all she had to worry about was a petty larceny case...
GRACE: No, I`m just asking you this...
SCHAFFER: ... we wouldn`t be -- I don`t know whether she took it or not, but what does it have to do with this missing child?
GRACE: Well, I can tell you what it has to do with it, Peter. During the period of time that she was AWOL from her family, the fact that she may have been coming back and forth to the home to steal till gasoline at night is very, to me, evidentiary -- I mean, that she wouldn`t let her mother, her own mother, the child`s grandmother, see the child, but she would come back -- that says to me the child was already gone at that time. That`s what it says to me, that she would sneak back and steal gasoline so her mother wouldn`t see that she wasn`t with the child. You know, two and two is four, connect the dots thing, Peter.
SCHAFFER: I don`t find it that probative of anything.
GRACE: Michael, agree or disagree?
MAZZARIELLO: I agree with you, Nancy.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: We love you, and you know, please think of anything that we can help find Caylee because as soon as we can help find her, it`s going to be, you know, open and shut to get you out of there, OK, darling?
CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely. I know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everyone, breaking news. Apparently, in the last few moments, an arrest made in the murder of Army specialist Megan Lynn Touma, Ft. Bragg soldier. As you recall, she was found dead in a local hotel room. And remember, a week after her body was found, a letter was received from the so-called "zodiac killer."
A man has been arrested, Edgar Patino (ph), charged with first-degree murder in the death of Specialist Megan Touma. As we receive more information, we will bring it to you immediately. But right now, the news, an arrest has been made of Edgar Patino.
We are taking your calls live in the case of missing Caylee. Bombshell. A judge refuses to suppress phone calls made from the jail. Now they have been released. Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Here`s an FYI for you so you can conduct yourself accordingly.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: Everything is public record, including this phone call, including the visitation videos.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: So all that stuff is going to end up being released at some point.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know it is.
LEE ANTHONY: I had no knowledge of that whatsoever.
CASEY ANTHONY: Jose told me that yesterday.
LEE ANTHONY: They told me that after we got on the (INAUDIBLE) that we did that. So...
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: ... there`s obviously some things that I may have asked in a different -- I would have asked in a different way.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Absolutely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: And I don`t want you to, you know, feel for any reason that, you know, we`re not on your side about anything because -- because we are about everything. We`re completely behind you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know.
LEE ANTHONY: And being completely behind you, our entire focus, all our days, every second of every day is consumed with what can we do to find Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Oh, absolutely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Now that she`s been tipped off her phone calls are being recorded, we no longer hear the "F"-word every 30 seconds.
Out to the lines. Deborah in California. Hi, Deborah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have really two quick questions.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, since the family -- since this mother has seemed like she`s detached herself from her daughter, has anyone looked into the biological father, to speak with him...
GRACE: The biological father is dead. The bio father is dead from a car crash. Second question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, has anyone linked the new boyfriend with the money being spent and the daughter missing? Maybe he didn`t want a daughter, to be raising someone else`s daughter.
GRACE: Excellent question. To Rory O`Neill. It`s my understanding the boyfriend, Tony, has been cooperating.
O`NEILL: Yes, from the very beginning, since the phone calls first went to police, Tony has been cooperative.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: We love you, and you know, please think of anything that we can help find Caylee because as soon as we can help find her, it`s going to be, you know, open and shut to get you out of there, OK, darling?
CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely. I know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Even with her brother tipping her off repeatedly, You`re being recorded, still no mention of how to find Caylee, how the search is going, what`s being done to find Caylee.
Out to the lines. Joanne in North Carolina. Hi, Joanne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know, why can`t the mom take a polygraph test?
GRACE: She can take a polygraph test, right, Peter Schaffer and Michael Mazzariello?
MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely.
SCHAFFER: She could. Why would she?
GRACE: Nobody is stopping her. But it would probably help, Michael Mazzariello, if she would speak to cops first. Uh-oh! I forgot. She wants to review the TV video of herself before she speaks to cops. Why is that Michael?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, I don`t know the reason behind that, Nancy, but her attorney should be at her side. She should be cooperating with the authorities 100 percent to find her child.
GRACE: Peter?
SCHAFFER: I would advise her to say nothing. She`s said too much already.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD: I gave them the same resources that I gave you and you found out a hundred more things than they did.
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Right.
C. ANTHONY: . and they were given the same information.
L. ANTHONY: Right.
C. ANTHONY: So it`s just about the approach, I guess, in using the resources to their full extent.
L. ANTHONY: We just need to figure out how we can be clear on whatever we`re giving to them so even if we have to, you know, speak very direct or if we have to -- you know, we can`t really speak in generalities with them, with anybody is what I`m finding out.
C. ANTHONY: I gave them things multiple times, each officer, I gave them the same information at least two or three times. I`ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same name, I mean none of that has altered because it`s as is.
L. ANTHONY: Hey.
C. ANTHONY: Hey, can you give me Tony`s number?
L. ANTHONY: I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going do you at this point.
C. ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.
L. ANTHONY: OK.
C. ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother and it`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste.
Oh by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else like don`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste your time coming up here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: They end up in court today, just hours ago, as a matter of fact, trying to fight the release of these recordings, recordings of phone calls she -- Casey Anthony -- made from the jail.
Today in court, she smiled throughout the court hearings. Why?
You know, there was her chance. She was in court before a judge to tell the judge everything she knows about her missing daughter, but nothing. And if you hear the phone calls, if you listen to them, you hear her brother tell her repeatedly, the phone calls are being recorded, but even knowing that, she never asks about the location of her daughter, 2- year-old Caylee, or the progress of the search for the little girl.
I want to go out to Larry Sutton with "People" magazine.
Larry, again, thank you for being with us. You know, your article states a quote from Sheriff Deputy Carlos Padilla, "Everything she gave us turned out to be false. It`s been like trying to put a puzzle together."
What did you learn?
LARRY SUTTON, STAFF EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, you know, we learned that she has told the police an awful lot of things, but everything turned out to be a lie. Everything from simple facts like, oh, I`m working at Universal Studios. Well, two detectives put her into the car, say let`s go and find out what your co-employees think.
As they get to the scene of where she was supposedly working, she turns around and tells them oh I was fired from that job two years ago.
So there`s a number of facts, five, six, seven things that she`s told the cops, everything from the last time she saw a nanny that supposedly had care of the little girl, turns out that she gave them the wrong date, the wrong time, and the wrong name of the nanny, as least as far as the police are concerned.
So she has spoken a lot, but everything`s turned out not to be true.
GRACE: And what I find to be the most probative thing in your article, you have a box of various lies that she`s told, just some of them, to police. And one that I find especially probative is that she claimed to police she had been conducting her own search for the past 31 days for her little girl, Caylee, pictured here.
Everyone, take a look at this little girl. But.
SUTTON: And you know, that search was in clubs and discos. She wasn`t going to find her there.
GRACE: Yes, in clubs and discos. And also, the boyfriend, Tony, that she had been seeing had been staying with, throughout, on and off, throughout the time she was AWOL from her home, this guy, Anthony Lazaro, says he didn`t know anything about a search.
SUTTON: In fact most.
GRACE: He had no idea Caylee was even missing.
SUTTON: Absolutely true. Most of her friends say the same thing. If there was any concern, she certainly wasn`t telling her friends about it.
GRACE: So it was a super secret search for 2-year-old little Caylee.
Out to Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective. He is a member of Safe Now Project.
Bill, it`s great to see you again. What do you make of it?
BILL MAJESKI, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, BOARD MEMBER, SAFE NOW PROJECT: Well, I think there`s an awful lot of information that the police have that they haven`t shared with the public nor should they. We talk about cell phone conversations, anything that she said over the cell phone -- anything that she did over the cell phone, every number that came into her and she dialed out, the police are aware of that.
There are a lot of things, all these conversations that are taking place in the jail house, she`s saying that her brother has learned 100 new things.
Well, you know the police, I`m sure, sitting down with this -- with the brother and saying, OK, let`s go point by point. What are these things? So how does she know that she found out 100 more things than the police did?
The other thing that troubles me about her are some of the words that she`s using. When she asked -- when the brother asked about her daughter, saying, you know, do you think she`s OK, she said, I feel -- you know, I feel that she`s OK, I feel that she`s close to me.
You know, you either know or you don`t know or you hope, you know, that she`s OK. It`s not a question of being -- a feeling. You know the woman is living in her own mind in terms of what occurred.
Clearly, the likelihood is greater that something disastrous has happened to the child. Those gasoline cans may indeed come into evidence as a result.
GRACE: As part -- is connected to this in some way.
MAJESKI: Yes.
GRACE: And, you know, even if they`re not probative, if they don`t really prove anything, to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, as Bill was pointing out, if you have to steal gas -- gasoline from your family to drive around your mom`s car, how can you afford to pay a nanny to take your daughter to the beach, to take your daughter to amusement parks?
That is her story.
And Rory O`Neill, what can you tell me about her telling police or her brother, she had two cell phones and she doesn`t know where either of them are. And suddenly she remembers the SIM card that stores all the memory from the cell phones, she has that in her jeans pocket and she lost it.
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: It`s interesting, too, because the brother was asking very specific questions about exactly when she called this baby-sitter last, what time, when did she call you, how -- was she calling you from a local phone number with the 407 area code. She said, no, there was a Ft. Lauderdale incoming number. We also would text message back and forth.
And I thought one of the best questions came from a viewer last night on your show who asked -- you know, we`ve seen all these pictures of Caylee. How come we`ve never seen a picture of Caylee with this baby- sitter? I think that`s also something else that the police might want to look into.
GRACE: You know nobody takes the SIM card out of their cell phone and just loses it. If you don`t have that in your cell phone, the cell phone won`t work, for Pete`s sake.
Everybody, joining me right now is a very special guest. This is a dear friend of the entire Anthony family. Holly Gagne, is joining us out of Orlando.
Holly, thank you so much for being with us tonight.
HOLLY GAGNE, FRIEND OF ANTHONY FAMILY: Thanks for having me, Nancy.
GRACE: Holly, I know that the family must be torn apart. They`re hearing bad press, rightfully so, about Casey. And at the same time, they`re desperately trying to find Caylee. They must be completely wrenched apart.
GAGNE: That`s an understatement, Nancy. No one prepares you for this. There is no book, there is no teacher, there is -- that`s like me saying to you, well, how would you react if your daughter was taken or your daughter was in jail? They are flying by the seat of their pants, for lack of a better word. Every day it is a living, breathing nightmare. I can barely function in my home and it`s not my family member.
GRACE: When is the last time that you saw or spoke to Casey?
GAGNE: I spoke with her the tail end of `07. I spoke with her -- she came by my home, she and Caylee. They`d stopped in just, you know, every few months to say hi. And I also -- she also called me and invited my daughter and I to the park.
GRACE: Did you -- have you ever heard of this nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez?
GAGNE: I had never heard the name, but when Casey came to my home at the tail end of `07, she had told me that there had been someone taking care of her. There was never a name given. And I knew that she had -- you use the word nanny, and I know when you hear that word, you think paying someone.
I look at it more it was a baby-sitter or a caregiver, because I had also kept Caylee sometimes.
GRACE: Right.
GAGNE: And there was never any money exchanged.
GRACE: Well, that is the word she used, that`s why I have.
GAGNE: OK.
GRACE: . have been using it as well.
So long story short, neither the grandmother, the -- the grandmother, the grandfather, you, nobody has ever seen the nanny?
GAGNE: Not to my knowledge. I can only speak for myself. I`ve never seen her, no.
GRACE: Did she represent to you that she had a job?
GAGNE: When I kept Caylee, I know she was employed at Universal. Now when I saw her last year that never came up.
GRACE: What do you think has happened to Caylee?
GAGNE: I can tell you what I don`t know, and I can tell America what I know about Casey as a mother. The mother that I know, the friend that I was neighbors with and that I`ve known for over six years, believe it or not, in all this craziness, is -- was and is a loving, caring mother.
Now she`s not a ditzy mother. She never portrayed being a young mother, what you`d think as a teen. She was very, just, detailed, reading to her child. When I would baby-sit her down to little things.
GRACE: So a good mother, a great mother.
GAGNE: Well, I have a pretty high standard of being a mother. I`d say she was a good mother -- I`d say she was a good mother.
GRACE: Everyone, with us tonight -- and we`re taking your calls -- Holly Gagne, very dear friend of the Anthony family.
Everybody, as we`re going to break, I want to share with you my special birthday wishes to my husband, the father of the twins, Lucy and John David.
Happy birthday, David.
And everyone, before we go to break, I want to stop to remember a Tennessee friend of the show, a longtime fan, Arlene Dever. She passed away from complications after open heart surgery. She was a retired schoolteacher, 27 years, author, a daughter of missionaries that traveled the world. She never missed a show.
Our thoughts and prayers with her family.
Good night, Arlene.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?
C. ANTHONY: 31 days. It`s bee 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?
C. ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Who is that? Babysitter?
C. ANTHONY: She`s been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
C. ANTHONY: I have been looking for her and just gone through other resources to try to find her which is stupid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In nightclubs and discos, that`s almost the extent of her search for her little girl, according to sources.
Back out to Anthony family friend, joining us tonight, Holly Gagne is with us.
Holly, you stated that Caylee was a good mother. Why not great?
GAGNE: Well, I just had a very high standard, and I guess I`m a little cocky, because I think I`m a great mother. So I don`t anyone`s as good as me, to be honest with you.
GRACE: How is her family reacting to all of her lies about the simplest things?
GAGNE: Nancy, I`m going to say this, you`re a mother, I`m a mother, and you`re going to defend your child because that`s all you know. You gave birth, you`ve raised this child, they are a very close family.
We were their neighbors. I mean, always together, and you`re going to defend your child. There`s just -- I don`t -- your mind can`t conceive that and they believe her in their hearts, and so that`s why.
GRACE: Do they believe that Caylee is still alive?
GAGNE: 185 million percent yes.
GRACE: OK, I`m going to ignore the 185 million thing but why, why do they believe that she`s alive at this juncture?
I mean the whole thing with the nanny -- she doesn`t exist. The nanny doesn`t exist. I know that`s hard to take in, but it`s a harsh reality, that`s the truth. That we know right now. I mean, maybe that will all change tomorrow, but it looks like she doesn`t exist.
GAGNE: OK, it looks like. Until that has been proven, they are going to believe their daughter. And you just said it. It may still be true. So until then, they`re going to believe her daughter, and that`s why I said what I said.
GRACE: Yes. Were you surprised when you found out that so many things she said were just lies?
GAGNE: Absolutely. I was devastated.
GRACE: Why? Did she have a history of lying? And did anyone know she had a history of lying?
GAGNE: I had never been a part of that, and so.
GRACE: Yes.
GAGNE: . so the reason I was so shocked and because that`s just not the Casey that I know. The Casey that I`ve seen, that`s been in my home, that`s babysat my own children. That`s just not who I know, Nancy.
GRACE: What was their reaction to Casey racking up about $45,000 worth of credit card debt on her mom`s credit cards?
GAGNE: I have not spoken to them about that at all. That has -- I`ve not.
GRACE: You know what, I understand, because in light of the fact she`s in jail, Caylee is missing, the credit cards seem so unimportant right now. But it seems to me that looking at where she spent all that money and what she was spending it on could be probative as to where Caylee may be tonight.
I want to go very quickly to Dr. Michael Bell joining us out of Miami.
Dr. Bell, thank you for being with us. Could you tell me if Caylee`s body is found now, is there a way to date the time of her death?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Not from the autopsy, no, no.
GRACE: If a body has been buried and moved, would you still find forensic evidence, say, in the burial location, even if the body was no longer there?
BELL: You might, especially if there`s any clothing or any other material from the child may still remain there.
GRACE: I want to go back to Bill Majeski, former NYPD.
Bill, how do you go about proving somebody doesn`t exist? I`m talking about the so-called nanny.
MAJESKI: Yes, I think in this particular case, what they have to do is they have to go back to the original time frame, recreate the time line from the last time that the baby was seen with anyone, and then go forward from there.
But it`s just -- it`s a normal investigative process, you know, and it`s odd that the term puzzle was used, because essentially that`s what an investigation is. It`s a giant jigsaw puzzle and each new clue and each new bit of information makes that picture clearer.
GRACE: Out to the lines to Debbie in Missouri. Hi, Debbie.
DEBBIE, MISSOURI RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
DEBBIE: Well, I`ve been wondering something that I haven`t heard mentioned.
GRACE: OK.
DEBBIE: If the father`s deceased, wouldn`t Casey be drawing a Social Security check for little Caylee?
GRACE: Interesting, the father died in a car crash, Rory O`Neill, correct?
O`NEILL: Yes, he died in a car crash about a year ago. They were not -- they weren`t married so I don`t know if the Social Security rules would apply in that case.
GRACE: To Larry Sutton, with "People" magazine, both you and Rory have done extensive investigation on this -- in this case. How is she supporting herself -- I`m talking about her, the woman smiling in court today, Casey Anthony -- other than mooching off parents?
SUTTON: Well, reaching up to parents is exactly what`s been the case for the past few months. You know she moved in with her family. Her mother was very nice and granting her own room and Caylee her own room.
And as far as her source of income, well, that`s kind of a mystery for the past few months.
GRACE: You know, everybody, throughout the hearing today -- this video has just come in from the court hearing today, is smiling and yucking it up.
You know, to me, Dr. Saunders, that`s not a good look.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: No, it`s a very bad look, Nancy. It`s hard for us to empathize with someone who doesn`t have much empathy and it`s really hard for family to think that her daughter`s attachment to their granddaughter may not be very real or very human.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?
C. ANTHONY: I did one time, yes, and that was actually the date that Mom has called the police.
L. ANTHONY: OK. Do you remember what time you spoke to her?
C. ANTHONY: Around noon, it was through a private call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Amy in Alaska.
PS, everybody, you`re seeing video from today`s court hearing in which Casey Anthony smiled pretty much the whole time.
Hey, Amy, what`s your question?
AMY, ALASKAN RESIDENT: My question is, did anybody ever question the family? Did Caylee talk about her babysitter because (INAUDIBLE) talk about their day care? They talk about who.
GRACE: Interesting question.
Rory, do we know anything about that?
O`NEILL: Well, we know -- I mean, the grandmother Cindy Anthony was well aware of the babysitter. I mean the family was well aware of this nanny.
GRACE: And never seen her.
O`NEILL: But never saw her.
GRACE: OK. Tina in Florida -- I think the answer`s no to that one, to Amy in Alaska.
Tina, hi, what`s your question?
TINA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Yes, my question is where is the other set of grandparents?
GRACE: Interesting.
Larry Sutton, what do we know about the biological father`s family?
SUTTON: Well, you know, there`s some question as to the story that the family is telling. That the person who was the father died in an automobile accident. That`s beyond -- not beyond belief. But there are other possibilities out there.
So as far as we`re concerned, as far as the work we have done to look into this.
GRACE: Right.
SUTTON: . it`s still a question as to who the father is.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, final thought?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: Yes, Casey can do many things. It was asked rhetorically why she wouldn`t take a polygraph exam. She should for the very same reason that I did, because she can clear herself and help law enforcement move forward.
She is giving them nothing, they`re desperate to find this child, only she can help.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, right as usual, president of Klaas Kids Foundation.
Let`s stop, everyone, and remember Army Specialist Dustin Jackson, 21, Arlington, Texas, killed, Iraq. Dedicated to serving his country, the second member of his family to lose their life in the war. Loyal, compassionate, loved taking in strays, helping others, brought his mom grilled cheese sandwiches and bag lunches to the homeless.
He`s remembered for giving the world`s best hugs. He dreamed of college and leaves behind parents, Ina and Mark, brother Damon, sister Krista, widow, Michelle.
Dustin Jackson, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to our show superstar, Mr. Lee Alexander.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
