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Nancy Grace
More Casey Anthony Phone Calls and Photos Released
Aired July 31, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for six long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. While most mothers would be frantically trying to find their little girl, just released phone calls in the last hour reveal mom, Casey, can`t even seem to finish writing a fact summary to help family and police find 2-year-old Caylee, this while grandmother and family meet six long hours with the FBI.
And tonight, inside the apartment where mom, Casey, lived during the month she was AWOL from home with little Caylee, during that time, she never once mentioned Caylee had disappeared. And there was no sign of the little girl.
And let the good times roll. Even more stunning photos surface, Caylee`s mom smiling for the cameras and celebrating, celebrating repeatedly at local nightclub. Most of the clubbing caught on camera is after little Caylee vanishes.
And tonight, new insight on police strategy. Where are they headed? All this while we wait for results from here on fluid taken from mom, Casey`s, car trunk. Those results expected within hours. Will formal criminal charges follow?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking new photos have been revealed allegedly showing Casey Anthony...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have new photos today of the mother of the little girl who went missing in Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A three-judge panel denies Casey Anthony`s legal team`s appeal to lower her bond, citing their failure to show that Casey`s initial bond hearing was unfair. It`s a crucial blow for Casey and her lawyers, but the fight to spring her from jail isn`t over just yet. Casey`s legal team tells us they will appeal to the state supreme court.
Meantime, a phone call made by Casey to her brother, Lee, was released. Lee tries to get information from Casey, but they both know the whole country is hearing these calls.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER: You know, I know there`s some -- you know, some people that you referred to in the past, and you know, I`m just curious if, you know, anything has changed as far as who I can trust and all those type of things.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CHILD: I mean, as far as I`m concerned, nothing`s really changed on that level, so -- and if anything does, I`ll obviously let you know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, now not seen for six long weeks. Just released in the last hour, phone calls reveal mom, Casey, can`t even seem to finish writing a fact summary behind bars to help family and police find 2-year- old Caylee, this while grandmother and family meet six long hours with the FBI. And more photos surface of Caylee`s mom celebrating at local nightclubs, seemingly without a care in the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: You all are sucking the life right out of me every day, having to remind everybody that this is what it`s all about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony is not disclosing what she, her husband and her son discussed with detectives yesterday for more than six hours, but the grandmother remains convinced her daughter left Caylee at the Sawgrass apartments with baby-sitter Zenaida Gonzalez, even though detectives say unit 210 was vacant and that no one named Zenaida ever lived in the complex.
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s leading me to a place, but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid, if someone walks in, that something may happen to Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, Cindy Anthony continues to defend these photographs of her daughter partying it up at an Orlando nightclub. The photographers says they were shot on June 20, which is days after Casey claims her daughter disappeared.
CINDY ANTHONY: Dates have not been qualified yet. She`s a 22-year- old. You know, I was out to dinner last night. I actually smiled. Does that mean that I`m not grieving for my granddaughter, that I`m not working for my granddaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy says that once all the secrets are revealed, many people will owe Casey an apology.
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half-truths, but she`s not a murderer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Everything`s fine, just trying to meet and talk with, you know, as many people as possible right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: So you know, how is the -- that letter been?
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, when I get a chance to actually write a little bit more, I should be able to do that within the next little bit, since I have some, I guess, quote, "rec time."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is 2-year-old little Caylee? Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. What`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the latest is, is that the Anthonys, Cindy, George and Lee, met with the FBI yesterday for at least six hours at the Orange County sheriff`s office, trying to put -- give them some information, the information that they know, so they can piece all this together.
The other thing that broke late this afternoon was the fact that pictures were released, pictures of -- that really question Casey`s, how shall we say, character, or it backs up her characteristics of her first phone call, when she used the F-bomb all the time. Those pictures were released today. No confirmation as to when they were taken. They could have been taken before Caylee disappeared or after Caylee disappeared.
GRACE: Mark...
WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am?
GRACE: Don`t get me wrong.
WILLIAMS: OK.
GRACE: But I don`t care if she swears like a sailor. I don`t care if she`s lying under the barstool. But what I find interesting about these newly released photos -- we`re just getting them in -- is that many of them were taken after -- there she is at a stripper pole.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRACE: If these are one of the photos taken after Caylee goes missing, that suggests to me that she is not concerned in the least about finding her daughter. It could suggest to some people that the daughter`s not missing, that she knows where she is.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, and you hit the nail on the head because there is no concern, and she has had this behavior from the first phone call until these photos that were released just moments ago. I mean, some of the photos that I took a look at, I mean, we`re seeing -- one was called "moon." Use your own description on that one.
Also, another development is, since Jose Baez was turned down yesterday in his appeal to get a second bond hearing for Casey, he says he`s going to take this to the Florida supreme court. Florida supreme court rarely steps into a matter like this.
And also, we`ve been able to confirm the fact that Tony Lazzaro, the current boyfriend, is a straight-up guy, as I mentioned last night. He is cooperating with the police, and he is not a person of interest in this case, Nancy.
GRACE: To Larry Sutton with "People" magazine. Everybody, we`re about to start taking your calls live. I find that highly probative, that -- we got a little more insight into where police are headed, what is their thinking, and a little bit of their progress so far.
We know that they have obtained Casey`s phone records. We know that they are searching and investigating everybody she called and received calls from. We also know that -- it`s very important in my mind -- that the boyfriend with whom she was staying on and off throughout the months she was missing with Caylee never saw Caylee after a certain point and never knew little Caylee was missing. He has been cleared of even being a person of interest. I find that very, very significant. He has cooperated with police.
Take a listen to this newly released phone call from the jail.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: How`s everything going? I know we got cut off yesterday. I didn`t get a chance to call you back.
LEE ANTHONY: That`s OK. Everything`s fine, just trying to meet and talk with, you know, as many people as possible right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: So you know, how is the -- that letter been?
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, when I get a chance to actually write a little bit more, I should be able to do that within the next little bit, since I have some, I guess, quote, "rec time."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Hello?
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey!
LEE ANTHONY: Hey.
CASEY ANTHONY: How are you?
LEE ANTHONY: I`m OK. How are you?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m doing all right. I just tried to call the house a couple of times, but the line was busy the first time, and then the other two times, it just rang and then I got the voice-mail. So I mean, initially, I thought somebody was home, but Mom probably doesn`t pick up the phone (INAUDIBLE)
LEE ANTHONY: To my knowledge, they weren`t -- they weren`t home at all today.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: "When I get a chance"? "When I get a chance"? She`s going to write up the fact summary for her family and for police to help find her little girl when she gets a chance?
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Penny Douglas Furr. Also with us tonight, veteran trial lawyer and author Joseph Lawless out of Philadelphia.
When she gets a chance, Joe Lawless, she`s going to work on that little document to help find her daughter? What is she doing behind bars? What else is she doing? Why can`t she write it?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it`s not like she doesn`t have any free time. If it were me, if I were in her position, I wouldn`t care what they charged me with, I`d be frantic to find my daughter. I`d be cooperating out the wazoo. I`d waive every right, starting with the 5th all the way through. I`d be trying to talk to the police.
This idea that someone has her daughter and she doesn`t want them to know because they`re going to be hurt, that they might hurt the kid, it just doesn`t wash to me. I`ve been doing this for 32 years, and something stinks about this and it`s coming from the jail.
GRACE: Well, you know, typically, Joe Lawless, you and I disagree, and very often, it`s yours and Penny`s position in court that you`ve got to take the hand you`re dealt and make the best of it. And I don`t know how you two are going do that tonight.
But the grandmother, Cindy Anthony, has just released some more statements regarding her daughter`s demeanor, regarding what you were just talking about, about the girl taking them up to an apartment and refusing to identify the correct apartment out of fear Caylee would be hurt. And in fact, you know what? Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s leading me to a place, but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid, if someone walks in, that something may happen to Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Marc Klaas is with us, president and founder of Klaaskids Foundation. Mark, did you hear that?
MARC KLAAS, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I heard it, and it really -- it makes me kind of ill. I think that Cindy is delusional at this point and will do absolutely anything to defend her daughter in the face of increasing evidence that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong here.
Here`s the problem, Nancy. I never got a lawyer, and most people in our situation don`t get lawyers, and the reason is very simple. When you hire a lawyer, despite of what Mr. Baez says, the lawyer comes between you and your cooperation with law enforcement. Mr. Baez has said he wants to find Caylee, but he doesn`t. He needs to protect his client. Those are not mutually inclusive goals, in fact. So if Casey did do something to this little girl, all he has to do is tell her to keep her mouth shut and he may very well be able to spare her life.
I watch this thing and I see Mr. Baez become increasingly confident, as he now seems to be the family`s lawyer instead of Casey`s lawyer. And the family`s going downhill, he seems to be going uphill, and he seems to be relishing every moment he gets in the spotlight. And I find that kind of a sickening -- a sickening reaction to this horrible, horrible story.
GRACE: Well, you know, you really just hit a nerve with me, Marc Klaas. Everyone, Marc Klaas not just founder and president of Klaaskids Foundation, he`s a crime victim. His daughter, beautiful girl, Polly Klaas was stolen from a bedroom and taken away. She was murdered. And of course, police first look at the father, the family members.
KLAAS: Yes.
GRACE: Marc Klaas -- Please, take my polygraph. Search my home. Take my DNA. Do anything so that you can go find who took Polly. Do it right now! And I recall distinctly, Marc, after the murder of my fiance, being asked questions, and it never dawned on me that I needed a lawyer or should not answer immediately to the best that I could. You know, you`re really not always in very good shape to answer. But you`re right.
In fact, take a listen to what the lawyer had to say about Casey speaking to cops to help try to find her missing girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s my understanding that your client will not meet with police until she`s granted immunity, is that true?
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: That`s totally not true. That`s 100 percent false. And I heard that in the beginning of your broadcast, and I was hoping to have an opportunity to clear that up. We have never, ever, ever told the police, Look, she`ll talk but only if she`s released or granted immunity. Nothing like that ever transpired, and I don`t know where it came from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, Mr. Baez, I can tell you where it came from. The Orange County spokesperson, Carlos Padilla, says that, in fact, you have requested immunity for your client, Caylee`s mother, Casey Anthony, in exchange for her speaking to you to help find the girl`s whereabouts.
To Larry Sutton, staff editor with "People" magazine -- an in-depth story in the "People" magazine that`s coming out on the stands right now. What do you make of it?
LARRY SUTTON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, there`s a lot of things here, but it boils down to, you`ve got a young woman in jail who`s got a history of telling lies. We`ve interviewed a lot of folks who knew her when she was growing up. A lot of people told us that she was prone to exaggeration. She`s the type of girl who, if she would stub her toe, she`d tell everyone, Oh, my toe`s broken, I got to go out to the hospital, when, in fact, that was not the case.
Another neighbor, for example, caught her when she was walking a dog. The dog relieved himself on a neighbor`s lawn. When the neighbor came out to complain, despite the fact that she was holding the leash attached to the dog, she said, That`s not my dog. I have nothing to do with that. So there have been instances in her past where she has not told the truth. It`s not all that surprising that she`s not telling the truth now.
GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Holly Gagne is with us. She`s a friend of the Anthony family. She knows them very well. Holly, thank you for being with us.
HOLLY GAGNE, FRIEND OF ANTHONY FAMILY: Thanks for having me again, Nancy.
GRACE: Holly, I know that the mother -- a lot of people are throwing stones at mother, the grandmother, Cindy Anthony, and a lot of what she has said, frankly, to me doesn`t make any sense. I mean, I know better. I know cadaver dogs do not hit on a pizza box that`s been left in your trunk for a few days. I know that. A lot of it doesn`t make sense.
But on the other hand, when you love your child more than anything in the world, you choose to believe them. And I think that`s the spot Cindy Anthony is in right now. She`s listening to her daughter and trying to make sense of it all. How is the family tonight?
GAGNE: Tired, in a word, very tired, and frustrated, feeling as if, you know, the media`s not on their side. Again, I said -- you know, I stated the other evening there`s no preparation for it, so they`re going from one day to the next. And when they`re sitting in their home alone at night at 2:00 o`clock in the morning, staring into a picture of their granddaughter who`s missing and their daughter, you know, there`s just no way to describe that kind of pain.
GRACE: Holly, have they reasoned out in their minds why the media is jumping on this story, because nothing that their daughter says makes any sense, and hanging in the balance could be the life of a 2-year-old little girl?
GAGNE: Well, I think they believe in their hearts that the media`s giving snippets here and there. You`re seeing a picture of her daughter smiling, and they`re defending that, and so they`re just over it, frankly.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Do you have anything that you can, you know, tell me, you know, that would help, you know...
CASEY ANTHONY: There`s nothing I can think of at the moment. I`m going to actually try to get something together, you know, today so I can write a couple letters...
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... to the family. I`m even going to give Jose some stuff to see if you guys get that directly, but still put out my own specifics. So if anything happens, if there`s any lapse, you still will get what I`m trying to put across to you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: I know you`re going to meet with, you know, the investigators and everything. You know, is there anything specifically the details that you want to clarify to me now, so when I`m following up on my own leads and my own information, putting this stuff together, you know, that I can start working on it now?
CASEY ANTHONY: At the moment, there`s nothing specific, or nothing that, you know, should probably be said here. Again, I`ll put something together before I see Jose, or when I see Jose, and you know, make sure that I have something also to put out.
LEE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: So that way, you can get everything.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: While most mothers will be frantically putting together whatever police wanted to help find their little girl, on these just released phone calls from the Orange County jail, we hear Casey Anthony stating that she hasn`t had a chance to put pen to paper just yet.
To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. What -- what is wrong with her?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I look at this through the eyes of the person who`s doing the forensic psychological examination. They`re going to take a look and see if she got rid of the baby because she wanted an ideal life, like out in the clubs, out partying with her friends. And certainly, that seems to be the case.
They`re going to use testing instruments to see if she has a personality disorder. Certainly, that seems to be evident. These instruments are very scientifically verifiable. They hold up in court. They`ve been performed on hundreds of thousands of patients.
And then they`re going to test and evaluate to see if she has ragefulness, impulsivity,, lying and the number one thing, whether or not she has empathy towards the child. The lack of empathy is what comes through in call after call after call. A lack of empathy, there`s a greater likelihood that she is the one who got rid of her own child.
GRACE: We are hearing from the grandmother, Cindy Anthony, that some of these photos are from her 21st birthday. Many of them are taken after little Caylee went missing.
We are taking your calls. When we get back, straight out to Anna in North Carolina. Stay with us.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Just remember that if you give it to the attorney, (INAUDIBLE) can choose whether or not...
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) choose whether or not to take the chance, exactly, which is why I`ll do a secondary letter to make sure that it`s direct.
LEE ANTHONY: Perfect. That would be -- I would encourage that 110 percent.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Hi, Case.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey.
LEE ANTHONY: Hey.
CASEY ANTHONY: How`s everything going?
LEE ANTHONY: It`s going OK. How`s everything going with you?
CASEY ANTHONY: Good. Just took a shower. Figured I`d call and check in and say hi, since I got a chance to see Mom and Dad this morning.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Anna in North Carolina. Hi, Anna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, thank you very much for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of your guests already answered my first question, which was, Does she have a pattern of life-long lying? And my second question is, are the grand -- is the grandmother and brother -- are they actually enabling the perpetuation of this lie by feeding into it like they are?
GRACE: Interesting question. To Bethany Marshall. What do you think?
MARSHALL: I think Cindy probably has a long pattern of colluding with her daughter. She had a lightbulb moment when she called 911, but she`s been turning on the dimmer switch. The more heinous the possibilities, the more difficult it is for her digest, the more she`s been going into denial. I think the brother is more in reality in trying to get the truth out of her.
GRACE: To Penny Douglas Furr. The bond has been affirmed by the appellate court. What you think.
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the bond is outrageous, Nancy, because our own United States Supreme Court said that if the right to bond is not preserved, the presumption of innocence means nothing. And they`ve found no evidence whatsoever that this woman`s guilty of murder.
GRACE: You mean other than the cadaver dog hitting on her car and her lying about where her daughter is?
FURR: That will not bring a conviction, Nancy, and you and I both know that.
GRACE: Says you. Says you.
FURR: I don`t think that`s enough for a conviction of murder. They`re going to need other facts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: How`s everything else? I mean how`s everything going as far as your concerns?
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I mean it`s -- I think it`s kind of something new every day. Just some of the stuff that we talked about before -- if there`s anything additional or at this moment, I mean, I don`t really have a lot of my notes with me right.
You know, I know there`s some -- you know people that referred to in the past, and you know, I`m just curious if anything has changed as far as who I can trust and all those types of things.
C. ANTHONY: Well, I mean, as far as I`m concerned here, I don`t really know on that level. I guess understandably just being out of contact, but I mean as far as I`m concerned nothing`s really changed on that level. So if anything does, I`ll obviously let you know.
L. ANTHONY: I`ve been -- I`ve talked with pretty much everybody at this point.
C. ANTHONY: OK.
L. ANTHONY: Most of them on a regular basis, and at least most people within the last few, few days or day. So I definitely am -- you know just kind of getting my bearings and everything like that with everybody.
C. ANTHONY: OK.
L. ANTHONY: But, you know, if there`s ever anything particularly that I should look into or have to follow up on.
C. ANTHONY: Yes, I`ll definitely let you know if things come up if anything does at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`ll let you know. We`ll number be in touch.
To Joe lawless and Penny Douglass Furr, if your child was missing, Joe Lawless, do you really think you`re going to go, "oh yes, we`ll be in touch"? I`ll let you know if anything changes.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": If my child was missing and I was being targeted as part of the investigation, I actually think I`d listen to my lawyer.
I`ve thought a lot about this, Nancy. Part of me had a gut reaction to -- I don`t like it. The other part of me sees a lot of people circling around this girl in a way that if I were her lawyer I`d probably be advising her to do what -- exactly what Baez is doing, and that`s just not talk.
GRACE: Well, she was doing that, Penny Douglass Furr before she got a lawyer.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I understand, Nancy, and that`s why she got a lawyer, because they immediately then arrested her and so at this point she`s being very careful and she should be, and as her attorney I would advise her to be very careful.
GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies" -- John, more phone calls that we have just gotten, just as we go to air, released from the jail, calls from Casey Anthony talking to her brother, who basically says, well, you know, I`ve talked to everybody you told me about. And -- in other words, they`re making no progress based on what she has told them.
Why don`t we hear her saying, "Have you tried this? You have tried x? What about y? You have called z? Have you put up flyers? Have you gotten any tips?"
We hear nothing like that.
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": She doesn`t want to cooperate with anybody. She hasn`t been cooperating with the police. She continues to lie about everything and, I`ll tell you something the parents, the brother, the sisters, everybody who`s involved here is in a very precarious situation here, and you can hear it in their voices.
They don`t want to be confrontational by the police because that didn`t work with Casey. And they are really trying to get as much information, and to some degree, I think, that they`re talking in code, but I can tell you this that when I listened to that brother talk to his sister like that, I can tell you that he`s really, really trying. And he cares more than Casey does.
GRACE: To Holly Gagne -- this is a very dear friend of the entire Anthony family joining us tonight.
Holly, I know that the family, not Casey, but rest of the family met with the FBI for about six hours including Cindy Anthony, the whole family. They are cooperating. They are trying.
How did that go for them?
HOLLY GAGNE, FRIEND OF ANTHONY FAMILY, BABYSAT CAYLEE FOR 1 YEAR: When I spoke with Cindy today, she was very encouraged. She said it went very well and she is so happy that the FBI`s involved, because they haven`t really had a positive reaction with the police.
You know I don`t know the ins and out of that but they`ve hit walls, they`ve butted heads, and -- so she is just very happy the FBI`s now involved.
GRACE: Holly, we also have learned from the FBI tonight that there have not been a request from Casey Anthony or her lawyer, Jose Baez, to speak to the FBI. While the lawyer tells us right here on this show that they want to speak to the FBI.
GAGNE: Yes, Nancy. Now I know Jose is speaking for -- for Casey. And so I`m not quite sure why she`s not talking directly to the FBI. I know the night that he was on your show he did go to the courthouse or to the jail to meet with the local police and they did not meet him there.
So as far as the FBI, he may be standing in the way. I`m not sure of that.
GRACE: And also what we have learned, Holly, the local police are stating that in order to speak to Casey Anthony, the only way Baez will allow that to happen -- and this is with Casey Anthony`s OK -- is that they give him the questions, he tells them to Casey, gets an answer to the best he can and then relays that -- to police. He`s not allowing them to sit down with Casey Anthony.
GAGNE: That is what I have also heard but I did not get that directly from Cindy.
GRACE: Why? Why is that? Why won`t she meet with them to help find her daughter?
GAGNE: Nancy -- I could speculate all day long. I could tell you what my opinion is, my neighbor`s opinion. My -- you know my son`s opinion. I don`t know.
GRACE: What is your opinion? You`re a family/friend of the Anthony`s.
GAGNE: I can tell you that I do not think that Casey Anthony took her child with a part of her death, put her in the trunk of her car, and then tried to bury her in her parents` backyard. I can tell you that is not the Casey Anthony that I know as a mother.
I do not know why she is lying. It is making me as crazy as it`s making you and the rest of our community. But I don`t believe the other.
GRACE: Can I ask you -- I know you state that you believe Casey is a good mom. And you saw her with Caylee. You saw them interact.
GAGNE: Absolutely.
GRACE: What do you make of the photos? Now some of these are from an earlier birthday party that we have just obtained, but most of these photos are taken a few days after Caylee allegedly goes missing. And mom is out partying at nightclubs.
GAGNE: OK. The answer I`m going to give you is, that makes me think that she knows she`s OK. I don`t -- I just can`t believe that this girl would just have her daughter in the back of her trunk. That`s just sadistic and crazy.
I know it happens, Nancy. I`ve watched your show and I understand that. But to be out in a club partying down with your friends while your child that you`ve loved for almost all of her life is just buried in the backyard or in the trunk, there`s just, in my opinion, and in my heart there`s just no way.
GRACE: You know what, Holly, I pray to God -- I literally pray to God that you are right.
GAGNE: You and me, Nancy, every single night while I tuck my daughter in -- every night.
GRACE: You and me, you know it, event in commercial breaks, I have somebody call home just thinking about what can happen. Take a look at this little girl. This is what it is all about.
The tip line, 800-423-TIPS.
To Dr. David Posey joining us out of L.A., medical examiner and forensic pathology there with the Glenn Oaks Pathology Group.
Doctor, the cadaver dogs, not one, but two, independent dogs at two different times hit on the car on the trunk of Casey`s car. They also hit in the backyard of the Anthony home. What does it mean to you?
DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: It means to me that the dogs are after something. They are definitely trained to identify human remains. And they`re sensitive enough to take in and differentiate between, you know, dead animal and human.
The reason you want to bring in a second dog is to confirm the first dog because there`s always the chance that the handler may have accidentally queued his dogs off. But I think that the dogs are right on it. I think we`ve got.
GRACE: Dr. Posey.
POSEY: . something that you could go after.
GRACE: We have learned that the lab results will come down very soon. What do you think has taken this long?
I`m wondering, do they already know the answer and they`re just preparing for what is to come?
POSEY: That`s a possibility. I know, in working up forensic lab data, you screen, you get an answer, and you want to confirm it. And that, sometimes, is why it takes so long to get your test back.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Roz in Ohio, hi, dear.
ROZ, OHIO RESIDENT: Hey, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question?
ROZ: I`m going back to like David Westerfield case.
GRACE: Yes.
ROZ: How she returned -- when she first got arrest dead she not like the cops took her, wait to Universal and then she said, oh, I don`t work there anymore.
GRACE: Right.
ROZ: Return to the scene of the crime. Have they checked out Universal at all?
GRACE: I think they have checked out Universal.
To Mark Williams with WNBD Newstalk 1150, they went there under the thought that she worked there and they were going to find out where this may -- I mean this baby-sitter came from. But you know very often criminals do return to the scene of the crime.
Were her activities monitored in any way?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Not that I know of. One of the things -- you know, you know somebody brought up a good point about, you know, send the questions to Jose first. It`s like a reporter sending out questions to an interviewee, a person he`s going to interview.
You just don`t do that. She should sit down and talk with investigators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: Hello?
C. ANTHONY: Hey.
L. ANTHONY: Hey.
C. ANTHONY: How are you?
L. ANTHONY: I`m OK. How are you?
C. ANTHONY: I`m doing all right. I just tried to call the house a couple of times. But the line was busy the first time and then the other two times it just rang and then I got the voicemail So, I mean, initially I thought someone was home but Mom probably doesn`t pick up the phone (INAUDIBLE).
L. ANTHONY: To my knowledge they weren`t -- they weren`t home at all today.
C. ANTHONY: Oh OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: You weren`t at the hearing yesterday or at the courthouse, were you?
L. ANTHONY: No, I wasn`t able to make it. I was working on some other stuff.
C. ANTHONY: Yes. Well, it was thrown together last minute literally. I mean I knew about it the night before so.
L. ANTHONY: Right. I was doing something where I lost complete track of time so.
C. ANTHONY: OK. Fine.
L. ANTHONY: . I apologize for that. (INAUDIBLE) arriving everybody`s being let out so.
C. ANTHONY: Hey, no big deal. Yes, like I said, I just wanted to call and say hi, you know, tell you that I miss you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight we learn that the defense attorney had said mom will talk to police on the condition of immunity.
More stunning photos released of Casey Anthony partying. Many of the photos we are showing you were after Caylee was reported -- well, was reportedly missing. Some of these are from an earlier birthday.
We are taking your calls live. To Chris in Wisconsin, hi, Chris.
CHRIS, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
CHRIS: You`re welcome.
I have two questions. The first question is, has the mother ever indicated what the little girl was wearing so people can identify her -- her by her clothing if and when she`s found?
And second of all, one of those first 911 tapes, when Cindy Anthony called, she indicated that her daughter, Casey, had been missing for 31 days, and that she had just found her but she can`t find her granddaughter. But then Cindy Anthony later says, oh, I talk to Casey every day.
Was she setting up a potential alibi for her?
GRACE: Interesting question.
Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Number one, what do we know about the clothing? I believe the description was given over the 911 call.
WILLIAMS: I believe so. I don`t have that description in front of me. But that`s a great question about setting up alibis because I have heard Cindy Anthony in the past say, well, we text messaged each other. She may have been in Jacksonville, but then on the 911 tape, she says, you know -- we`ve given you 30 days. Now we`re giving you an extra day.
I`m not going do that and she`s on the phone with the police department. So there`s -- there`s some contradictory things right there. Also.
GRACE: And -- go ahead.
WILLIAMS: I was going to say, also on the case of, you know, granting Casey Anthony immunity, this is not "Law & Order," this is not a television show. This is reality. And when it comes right down to it, you don`t grant an individual immunity if -- you know before they talk. That`s just unheard of sometimes.
GRACE: The little girl in the 911 call was reportedly wearing plaid shorts. They were pink, teal and black plaid. And then the description of her, her height, her -- she`s 3 feet tall, brown hair, hazel eyes. All that was given as well.
I want to go back out to the lines to Dee in Maryland, hi, Dee.
DEE, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I watch you religiously.
GRACE: Thank you very much.
What do you think about this case? What`s your question?
DEE: My question is: wouldn`t you think that -- she told her mother that -- that the nanny had taken the baby to the beach. She never discussed this with the lawyer. When you asked him about it, he had no idea.
And wouldn`t you think that she`d divulged every (INAUDIBLE) of information she has for a liar? Because as it is, she`s not giving much. And also she knows she`s being recorded. Why hasn`t she pleaded to the -- her capture -- to the -- you know?
GRACE: You know, that`s true, Larry Sutton. We have never -- in all these recordings, we -- she knows she`s being recorded. We never hear her talk about putting out a plea to the public about bringing the girl home.
What do you make of what you`re hearing?
LARRY SUTTON, STAFF EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, you know, we`d like to learn more from the psychological profile that was done by the authorities there. She`s obviously in a great state of denial. I don`t think she even really comprehends the fact that she`s in jail and how serious this whole matter is.
You listen to her tone of voice. No sense of worry, whatsoever. Perhaps there is some kind of a psychological or mental problem that`s really preventing her from letting all the information out.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, what do you make of these newly released photos and what you`re hearing from the jail on these recorded phone calls?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: Well, I think that she`s a cold, calculating, evil woman. And I`d like to interject a little bit of truth into this story that seems to have no substance or on no truth to it.
The reality is, is that the longer this case goes unresolved, the greater chance of this little girl being returned either dead or not at all. I mean we should just cut to the chase on this thing if this mother knows where this little girl is, has any idea. I think she would have put this thing to rest long ago.
GRACE: To the lawyers, Penny Douglass Furr, about her car. It was abandoned. It was left there on empty.
You have a unique theory?
DOUGLASS FURR: Well, that means somebody else might have had access to the car, Nancy. So she didn`t always have access to do that car. How did it end up abandoned? I`d like to know how long she did not have the car. And they`re saying they found things that show evidence in the car.
How long was she without the car? I`d like to know how long she did not have possession of that vehicle.
GRACE: Now I believe your theory went a little bit further, Penny. Didn`t you suggest on an early -- at an early time that this mysterious person who took the car also killed Caylee?
DOUGLASS FURR: What I had suggested, Nancy, was that a possibility, if this is a young mother and if she negligently left the child in the vehicle, she came out, the vehicle and the child was taken, she probably just panicked and freaked out.
That`s another possibility. I mean, the fact that she`s guilty of murder is.
GRACE: Joe Lawless, Joe Lawless, we know that she constantly was stealing gasoline from her family members to put in the car. This car was found on empty with her pocketbook sitting in the car.
Do you really think it`s plausible to suggest to a jury, if it ever makes it that far, that somebody else took the car and killed Caylee?
There`s her pocketbook sitting on the front seat.
LAWLESS: Well, people steal cars with purses or wallets or suitcases in them all the time. I actually think Penny`s theory does (INAUDIBLE). The bottom line is, while there`s a lot of suspicious behavior, while there`s a lot of unusual behavior, there is still no evidence this girl did anything other than not report this kid missing for 30 days.
That`s shocking to hear, but it`s still not evidence that any crime was committed.
GRACE: Well, to me.
LAWLESS: At least not anything she`d been charged with.
GRACE: . the forensics say it all.
To John Lucich, the fact that two independent cadaver dogs hit on the car. We are waiting right now for the result on the hair and fluids. That says it all to me.
LUCICH: Absolutely it does. I can tell you this. If the attorneys really believe them, then why don`t they put up their homes to bail them out? But they don`t, because they know that she`s -- she`s guilty.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Joining us right now, a family friend of the Anthony`s. Holly Gagne is with us, joining us out of Orlando, Florida.
Do you have some insight on to the 31 days that she was gone with Caylee?
GAGNE: I do, Nancy. I wanted to comment on Cindy in the phone call to the police about the 31 days. She wasn`t saying I have given you 31 days. In other words, I`m in on this. She was saying, hey, at the beginning of June, we discussed that you were going to take a month, you were going to kind of, you know, be out on your own.
You`ve been living here, you`re going to go on a vacation. George and I are going to go on a vacation, and that`s what she was saying. Look, I`ve given you a month. You`re telling me you`ve looking for her, so I`m going to take matters in my own hands.
GRACE: And you know what, Holly? I never took it that way, because if you listen on in their conversation, I don`t think they realized they were being recorded. That was between 911, between like the police and the sheriff.
She goes on to say, and if you want to play it like that, I will go and get a court order to -- it goes inaudible.
GAGNE: Yes.
GRACE: . basically get Caylee away from you. So it doesn`t seem -- never seemed to me like she was in on anything with Casey. I just think, at this juncture, she is struggling so hard to make what Casey is saying make sense, but it doesn`t make sense.
GAGNE: No. And I -- just because the caller had said -- the mother giving an alibi, but, yes, I mean, if you listen to those first couple of phone calls, as a mother, she`s saying, look.
GRACE: Got it.
GAGNE: . I`m going to -- you know, I`m bullying you. I`m going to say, hey, you know, this is -- if you don`t tell me -- and then the next call is, like, OK, listen, and, you know.
GRACE: Yes. I got it. I got it. It makes perfect sense.
Tonight, still no cooperation from Casey Anthony in finding her daughter, but let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Christopher Simpson, 23, Hampton, Virginia, killed, Iraq on a second tour.
Lost his life 24 hours after his last call to dad. Dreamed of being a history teacher, helping people accomplish their dreams and asking his high school sweetheart to marry him.
Loved the Redskins, snowboarding, Johnny Cash, rock and roll. Leaves behind parents, Scott and Mary, Catherine, brother, Richard, serving the Marines.
Christopher Simpson, American hero.
Thank you to our guests and to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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