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Nancy Grace
More Tot Mom Party Photos Released
Aired August 04, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for six long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight: Is there a limit to how much one person can party? Apparently not. More stunning and disturbing photos emerge of mom, Casey, at a local nightclub reportedly the night of the "hot body" contest. This just days -- days -- after her little 2-year-old girl vanishes. From the jailhouse mom, Casey, now states Caylee is, quote, "close" and will be home for her 3rd birthday this Saturday.
In the last hours, the Florida state`s attorney confirms the Anthony camp does want immunity. And tonight: Does the timeline fall apart again? The grandparents meet with cops behind closed doors to try and piece together the puzzle, all the while the clock ticking down on hair and fluid discovered in Casey Anthony`s car trunk and evidence seized from the Anthony home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More racy photos released in the case of missing 2-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. The photos appear to show the toddler`s mother, Casey Anthony, dancing on stage at a nightclub almost a week after her daughter, Caylee, was last seen. In other breaking developments today, the state attorney`s office announced that someone asked them to give immunity to Casey Anthony. The state attorney would not identify who specifically asked for immunity but said they have no intention of giving immunity to anyone involved in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony asked his daughter point blank in jail Sunday, Where is Caylee?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Dad, she`s safe. I`m worried about the family. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe. And I`ve got to believe her that she knows everything is OK. And I mean, do I think she might have gotten involved in something? Possibility. I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Whatever`s going on now, it`s going to be found out, so why not do it now, save yourself...
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING CHILD`S MOTHER: There`s nothing to find out. There`s absolutely nothing to find out, and that`s even what I told the detectives.
LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, everything that you`re telling them is a lie.
CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is. If I knew where Caylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, now not seen for six long weeks. More stunning and disturbing photos emerge of mom, Casey, at a local nightclub reportedly bumping and grinding the night of the "hot body" contest. This is just days after little Caylee vanishes. All the while, the Florida state`s attorney confirms the Anthony camp does want immunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He knows this is the week when some of the unknowns may be revealed. The DNA tests are expected to come back on the evidence taken from his daughter`s abandoned car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources close to this investigation tell WSH2 (ph) that George Anthony admitted to the FBI that when he first smelled his daughter`s car, he thought it was the odor of a body. But Anthony says he now believes the smell came from a combination of a rotting pizza and a cleaning fluid bottle being left in a hot car for 15 days.
GEORGE ANTHONY: It was an overpowering smell, I`ll admit that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first glance, you thought this may be the smell of a body.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Or decomposition. Possibility. Maybe my daughter ran over something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking new photos released reportedly showing Casey Anthony partying just days after her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee, was last seen. The photos shows Anthony dancing and partying on stage with another female partygoer, and no sign of the young mother conducting what she had told cops was her own investigation into the toddler`s disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing photos of mom, Casey. This is after little Caylee goes missing. According to the photographer that took these photos, these were taken at a local nightclub the night of the "hot body" contest. And there`s Caylee`s mom, in all of her grief, working through it.
Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Nancy, I guess the biggest thing right now -- and I know the biggest thing right now -- are those risque photos that were issued and released just a couple of hours ago. They are risque in the fact that they were taken June 20 after -- five days after Caylee Anthony went missing. And she is shown bumping and grinding with another woman during that "hot bodies" contest. And that`s the big thing right there. Obviously, you know, you have shown them. They`re up on the screen right now.
Also, another development, earlier today, Cindy and George Anthony met with Orange County sheriff`s investigators for nearly three hours. The reason? They`re trying to establish and give cops a better timeline as to what happened during those 31 days and when Casey finally came back.
Another issue that came up is, yesterday morning, George Anthony, Casey`s father, met for 45 minutes with Casey in the Orange County jail. Now, what they did is, they talked about a lot of things, but the biggest revelation coming out of that was the fact that she is confident that Casey is close -- or Caylee is close by, Casey -- Caylee is alive and -- are you ready for this? -- she will be at her 3rd birthday party, which is this Saturday.
Also coming out of the state attorney`s office, a possible deal of limited immunity for Casey Anthony. That`s been bandied about a little bit. The attorney for Casey Anthony, Jose Baez, it`s believed it came from him, but Randy Means (ph) with the state attorney`s office here in Orlando said, We`re not entertaining any possibility whatsoever.
Obviously, folks want to get this investigation off dead center. And now on Wednesday, the 21st day of Casey Anthony`s incarceration in the Orange County jail, her attorney, Jose Padilla -- or Jose...
GRACE: Baez.
WILLIAMS: ... Baez -- there we go, thank you -- can ask for a...
GRACE: Preliminary hearing.
WILLIAMS: ... preliminary hearing in the deal, which would obviously bring a lot of people in and he could cross-examine people. So that could possibly happen as early as Wednesday.
GRACE: Everything shifting and changing in the search for Caylee over the weekend. What I find very disturbing, in addition to these photos -- Casey Anthony, the mom of Caylee, is in the blue. This is the night of the "hot body" contest that -- according to the photographer that took these photos. This is several days after her little 2-year-old girl goes missing.
I find it very, very interesting -- back to you, Mark Williams -- that the grandfather, Caylee`s grandfather, Casey Anthony`s father, who is a former cop, goes to the jail. He is in there for nearly an hour. He says he asks her the tough questions. Then when he is confronted when he comes out, he says he knows nothing new. I mean, her own father, a former cop, cannot get an answer out of her as to where Caylee is? Do I understand those facts correctly, Mark Williams?
WILLIAMS: Yes, you do, Nancy. And that`s basically -- when he came out of the jail yesterday, he said that, again reiterating, that Casey told him that Caylee is alive, she`s close by and that she`ll show up for her 3rd birthday party on Saturday, which I find hard to believe if she`s been missing six weeks already.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the grandfather had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: Dad, she`s safe. I`m worried about the family. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter`s safe. You know, I`ve got to believe her that she knows everything is OK. And I mean, do I think she might have got involved in something? Possibility. I don`t know.
My gas cans were stolen on the 24th of June. I mean, there`s a report about that. They just wanted to come in, and they`re lining everything up. They`re doing a thorough investigation.
I said, Whatever you guys want to take from my house, you want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.
There was an overpowering smell, I`ll admit that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first glance, you thought this may be the smell of a body or decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s a possibility, yes. It`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Finally, somebody that makes some sense. Yes, the father is still struggling to believe his daughter, pictured here the night of the "hot body" contest. Yes, he is. Every parent would. But he is also very straightforward. At least, Nikki Pierce, that`s the way I find him.
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: He seems to be very straightforward. I think some of his experience as an investigator previously in Ohio is coming through. He`s really trying to find out where Caylee is, and he just point blank asked his daughter, Where is Caylee? And of course, Casey gave him the runaround with those answers, but he really did try his absolute best.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Anna in Kansas. Hi, Anna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I wanted to ask about the grandfather or the grandmother. Have they been asked to do a polygraph test?
GRACE: Interesting question. To Mark Williams. I`ve got a feeling that both of them would submit to one, especially the grandfather. Have they been asked to do a polygraph?
WILLIAMS: As far as I know, that has not been the case. That`s why they`ve been in the sheriff`s office. They went back to the sheriff`s office today, after a visit last week with sheriff`s office investigators. They just want to establish, give them a better frame of timeline. But they have not, as I know of, yet been asked to take any sort of a polygraph test.
GRACE: OK. We`re taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. We also hear today that the mom, Casey Anthony, says Caylee is, quote, "close by" and she will be home for her 3rd birthday this Saturday.
Sue Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: This woman seems to have some information, and now she wants immunity to tell us? No way, Jose! Jose Baez, that is. This woman is not getting a single break by this law enforcement, and she deserves not a single break by this law enforcement. If she doesn`t want her daughter found, then we shouldn`t give her any, any help along the way.
GRACE: To Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer joining us out of Seattle. Anne, what`s the deal with the lawyer, Baez? Because he comes on our show and says point blank to my face, I haven`t asked anybody for immunity, I don`t know what you`re talking about, we hear it from the public information officer, the PIO, Padilla...
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: ... we also now hear it from the state attorney general`s office, that the Anthony camp has requested immunity, I assume, in exchange for helping find Caylee.
BREMNER: You know, everybody is saying that there`s a request for immunity and authorities are saying they`re not going to give it. Now, this is a case with at least a defendant -- you know, if at first you don`t succeed in deceit, you know, lie, lie again. She`s like a lying liar, and that`s working for her. So I don`t know why they would give her immunity right now.
GRACE: Why do you say it`s working for her?
BREMNER: Because she`s not charged with murder. She`s not charged with the missing child. She is to be released by the 17th. So so far, sad to say, it`s working for her, Nancy. Nancy, I looked up on the Internet "lying to get ahead," and it had hundreds of thousands of hits, sorry to say.
GRACE: You know, Doug Burns, something very, very pertinent that Anne Bremner just said, that she could be out in just a few days. She could walk free. Explain, Doug Burns.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they have a certain period of time to either give her a preliminary hearing, which becomes an opportunity for the defense to see witnesses and cross-examine, or alternatively, Nancy, as you know better than most, being a prosecutor as long as you were, if they return an indictment, then there`s no entitlement to the hearing. So they`re going to have to kind of fish or cut bait by the 17th of August, and then we`re going to see what happens.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, explain the 33-day rule.
BREMNER: Well, basically, you have a right to a speedy trial. You have a right to be charged and released. And the fact of the matter is, it`s a constitutional right that she has and we all have.
GRACE: So bottom line, Sue Moss -- Doug Burns, veteran trial lawyer joining us out of New York, Anne Bremner, Seattle -- Susan Moss also out of New York. Susan, Florida has a statute, the 33-day rule, the police can arrest you. Fine. That`s all well and good. But if the charging authority -- that would be the solicitor (ph) misdemeanor, the district attorney felony charges -- do not formally charge you in 33 days, they cut you loose, OK?
MOSS: That`s absolutely correct. But I have a feeling that right before the deadline, they are going to make that charge. I think the police know way more than they`re saying. I think that`s the fact that -- the reason why we haven`t had an Amber Alert issued.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
MOSS: Well, there`s been no Amber Alert issued. When there is a child who is missing, standard operating procedure, you issue an Amber Alert. The authorities have never done that. I bet there`s a reason why.
GRACE: And please explain yourself. No need to be cryptic. You`re on national TV. Let`s not do secrets. Sue Moss?
MOSS: Oh, I`m sorry. Well, you know, I think that they`re holding back because they`re just waiting for more and more evidence. This Friday, we`re expecting the DNA results. And if those DNA results show that this is the DNA from Caylee, you know, game over.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Michael Arnall from Denver, Colorado, board- certified forensic pathologist -- Dr. Arnall, they found exactly where the cadaver dog hit in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, over the right rear tag light -- they found fluid, which they picked up with a black or ultraviolet light, and they found hair. Now, at first, they said the hair looked like that of Caylee Anthony. How do you compare -- it is mitochondrial DNA, which matches up to the mother -- how do you compare hair with the naked eye? Is it Caylee`s or is it Casey`s?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: With the naked eye, they`re going to look at the color and the length of the hair, and they`re going to compare it probably with hair that`s on the child`s hairbrush in the child`s room. That`s what they`ll do with the naked eye. They can repeat that examination using a microscope.
GRACE: Rosie, let`s put up some photos. You`ve got the mom`s hair, which may be treated. Maybe she`s gotten highlights. Maybe she`s using hairspray or gel. Then you`ve got the little girl`s hair, which would be some of the same mitochondrial DNA match, but you would see no highlights. You would see probably no hair spray or gel.
Everybody, you`re seeing video from WKMG. That`s Local6.com. This is mom, Casey, with newborn daughter Caylee Anthony. These are just-released photos of the mom with the little girl, obviously in much, much happier times.
Back to you, Dr. Arnall. So with just the naked eye, you`d be looking at length. You`d be looking at if there`s hair coloring on the hair. Then under a microscope, you`d look to see if there was hairspray or a gel. We`re trying to figure out, Is the hair in the trunk Caylee Anthony`s hair? Doctor?
ARNALL: Right. No, they can do the mitochondrial DNA on the hair shaft itself. If a little piece of the hair follicle came with the hair, there may be complete cells in that hair follicle and they might be able to get...
GRACE: And Dr. Arnall, isn`t it true that a darkened band appears on hair post-mortem after death?
ARNALL: I`m not -- I`m not sure on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey has not been charged for anything. She`d be standing right here by all of us. She`d be searching, if she could.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Get off your (DELETED) and look for my granddaughter. I don`t care if this is on the news or what. She`s out there.
They`re working as hard as they can to find Caylee, and that`s the goal. I`m sick and tired of hearing -- you know, she`s already tried and convicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, we`re all sick and tired of hearing Casey Anthony stonewalling police. This is her, just a few days after Caylee reportedly goes missing, at the "hot body" contest at a local bar.
To Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist joining us tonight out of New York. What do you make of these photos?
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, they`re very disturbing, Nancy. I mean, clearly, this does not look like a woman who`s in distress and anguish over not speaking with her child. I could see if she said that, you know, she thought the child was in good hands, but she hadn`t talked to her in five days. I can`t go a day without talking to my children.
GRACE: I`m just looking at these photos, frankly, in stunned disbelief. And you know, I thought, Dr. Taylor, that I knew all about what crime victims go through, having been one myself and represented them in court for so long. But once I had children, I just can`t take in feeling like that after your 2-year-old girl is gone. Gone!
TAYLOR: Well, it definitely indicates a disconnect between your emotion and your capability of reason, and really follows into someone who`s not -- doesn`t look like they`re feeling a lot of anguish and no guilt or remorse or anything. I mean, they`re very, very distressing photos.
GRACE: Susan Moss, Anne Bremner, Doug Burns -- what about it, Doug Burns? What do you tell your client?
BURNS: Well, you know what? Those photos, I mean, as explained from a psychiatric point of view, are terrible. But in a courtroom, they really don`t prove a heck of a lot of anything.
GRACE: You don`t think so, Doug?
BURNS: Proves nothing, other than the woman is acting in a bizarre fashion. And so what you would argue is that she was so distressed that she went in the other direction. I know it sounds crazy, but I don`t think that would prove -- I don`t think it proves a thing.
GRACE: Yes, it does. Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: Well, I agree. Crazy, but it could work.
GRACE: Susan?
MOSS: Survey says no way!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am right along with the rest of America, going, I don`t understand. I`m confused. I just keep saying what I know in my heart is that I can`t believe that she would hurt her child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: So you know, how has the -- that letter been?
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, when I get a chance to actually write a little bit more, I should be able to do that within the next little bit, since I have some, I guess, quote, "rec time."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony told local media his daughter gave him a letter that could have clues about Caylee`s disappearance, but her attorney says the letter doesn`t exist.
GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter told me, she says, Dad, I`ve written some things. I`ll give it to Mr. Baez. And that`s all she said to me. And I said, OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Has Casey Anthony been caught in yet another lie to her own father, telling him she`s given this detailed letter of clues and evidence to attorney Baez, when Baez himself says, I don`t know what you`re talking about, that whole thing is fabricated. There`s no such letter, there`s no such thing. Playing off her father and her lawyer. Who knows what the truth is.
Another little quirk in Florida law, everybody, is after 21 days, if you`re being held in jail and you have not been formally charged, you can demand a hearing, a preliminary hearing where you hear all the evidence.
What about it, Doug Burns? Do you think the defense will want to have that hearing and get to cross-examine the state`s witnesses, or do they want to hush up all the evidence?
BURNS: No, I think they probably would want to have that opportunity. But as I said earlier, and I`ll repeat it, I mean, in other words, you have to draw the distinction between a preliminary charge and a formal one. If you`re indicted, then speedy trial clock would be much longer. Here, if you get held on a preliminary charge, you`ve got to be brought in 21 or 30 days. I think they`re going to want the hearing, but they will indict to prevent it, if they have the evidence.
GRACE: And that hearing would be Wednesday, this Wednesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: Waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Who`s fault is.
CASEY: Sorry?
CINDY: Who`s fault is it you sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?
CASEY: Not my fault.
CINDY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you had told them the truth, and not lied about everything, they wouldn`t.
CASEY: Do me a favor, just tell me what Tony`s number is. I don`t want to talk to you right now. Forget it.
CINDY: I don`t have his number.
CASEY: Well, get it from Lee because I know Lee`s at the house. I saw Mallory`s car was out front. It was just on the news. They were just live outside the house.
CINDY: I know they were.
CASEY: Well?
CINDY: Well.
CASEY: Can you get Tony`s number for me so I can call him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Under Florida law, if you`re in jail and you`ve been held 21 days, you can demand a preliminary hearing to hear what the state`s evidence is as to why they are holding you. So this would be the time -- Wednesday is the day, that`s 48 hours from now -- where defense attorney Baez can either put up or shut up.
You keep saying why is the state holding her, why is the state holding her? Well, find out. Demand a hearing. Put the cops up on the stand. Put the detective on the stand. Cross-examine them. Hold the state`s feet to the fire and we`ll find out why the state is holding your client. Or you can just hush it up and just go along business as usual.
We are taking your calls. To Nancy in Michigan, hi, Nancy.
NANCY, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: Hi there, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Hi, dear. I`m good.
NANCY: Love your babies, honey.
GRACE: Well, you know, actually, I want to tell you thank you because today is their 9-month birthday.
NANCY: Wonderful. They`re beautiful.
GRACE: And without all the prayers and the kind thoughts of you all, I don`t think the three of us would be here today.
NANCY: They`re beautiful.
GRACE: So I`m very grateful.
What`s your question, dear?
NANCY: My question is, I`m a grandmother. I have grandchildren. And I would die for them. I don`t understand why they`re not more concerned over the baby than that spoiled brat daughter of theirs who doesn`t grieve.
GRACE: Well, you know, Nancy, when I heard the grandmother Cindy Anthony on the telephone with 911, she was, on one of the calls, hysterical about Caylee being gone. And now it feels like she`s just starting to feed into everything Casey is saying.
Casey Anthony, the mom, of Caylee, now saying that she believes, quote -- quote, "Caylee is nearby and will be back for her 3rd birthday," which is this Saturday. The family planning to have a birthday party for little Caylee whether she`s there or not, a birthday party is going to go down.
To Karen in Ohio, hi, Karen.
KAREN, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am, thank you for calling.
KAREN: Yes, I love you. I was just wondering, Casey continues to say she knows where Caylee is at, she`s safe, close to home, blah, blah, blah. Do you think it`s possible someone that she does know is holding Caylee like a collateral, for, like, a deal bond?
GRACE: Collateral for what?
KAREN: For maybe a deal gone bad. She`s so money hungry. Maybe she stole money and -- or borrowed money and never paid it back. Something like that?
GRACE: Interesting. Let`s go out to private investigator and author Vito Colucci. How feasible is that? And, look, I`m all for it if that means Caylee is alive. But it`s hard for me to get past two independent cadaver dogs hitting on Casey Anthony`s trunk, her car trunk, when the little girl goes missing.
They don`t hit on old pizza. They don`t hit on animal remains if she ran over an animal on the highway. They only hit on human remains, Vito.
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "INSIDE THE PRIVATE EYES OF A PI": That`s right, Nancy. I`m not buying into that she actually knows where this child is, maybe not in the sense that she`s explaining it.
You know, this is bad. This whole case is bad. You know what did her father do, a trained cop? Every cop that I`ve known myself, once you find a dead body as a police officer, that smell never leaves you. And that`s what he said initially. She knows what`s going on. She`s like a mafia, head mafia, in this jail cell dictating orders to all of her underlings. And everybody`s getting a little bit aggravated. I can tell you as a cop they`re getting very aggravated with this, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, Vito, it doesn`t make sense to tell her grandfather, when her grandfather says where is Caylee and she won`t say. She doesn`t know, but yet she says on the other side of her mouth Caylee is nearby and she`ll be home this weekend.
Doesn`t make sense, and Vito Colucci -- private investigator and author of "Inside the Private Eyes of an -- a PI"-- Vito, let`s talk about this black light, this ultraviolet light that was used to find samples, fluid samples, in the trunk of that car.
What is it and what does it pick up?
COLUCCI: Well, they`re looking for anything. They`re looking for anything at all they can get to test, OK -- the hair, like you talked about with the doctor before. Anything that they sent out for DNA. You know this woman, I feel, within the next week, will be arrested because of the items they found in the trunk.
They know they`re running against time. They do not want this woman out. It will pick up anything at all that could be helpful, any DNA, hair, anything at all in there.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall joining us from Denver, what is the light that they used on the trunk and what will it pick up that the naked eye cannot see?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It`s an alternate frequency of light. It shows things in a different fashion. And it does pick up body fluids better than standard light does to the naked eye.
GRACE: So is it an ultraviolet light? It`s a black light?
ARNALL: Right. It`s the black light -- there`s different frequencies that they can use. It may not be just one light. They can use different frequencies with this device and it just -- by using different frequencies, it helps pick up things that aren`t seen with the full standard light.
GRACE: OK, Dr. Arnall, help us understand. All right. We flick on a light. Got it. All right. We flick on a fluorescent light. I understand that`s a different kind of light than your desk lamp.
What kind of light are you talking about? Like an ultraviolet light that you`d shine on a black light poster? What is it?
ARNALL: Specific frequencies of light. And they have specific glasses they can put on that allow the viewer to see the scene at specific frequencies of light.
GRACE: So would that pick up, for instance, blood or cadaver fluid that the naked eye or a regular, like the sunlight, wouldn`t see?
ARNALL: Exactly.
GRACE: I get it. I get it.
Out to the lines, to Denise in Tennessee, hi, Denise. Do I have Denise, Rosie? Karen in Kentucky, hi, Karen.
KAREN, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hey, Nancy, it`s great to talk to you.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
KAREN: Maybe I`m naive, but I would like the defense attorneys to explain to me -- and perhaps you can as well, because you used to be a defense attorney -- wouldn`t you agree that most innocent people, people with nothing to hide, they don`t lie? Am I being naive or.
GRACE: Well, Karen in Kentucky, first of all, I was never a defense attorney. I was always a prosecutor, a felony prosecutor.
Innocent people, I wouldn`t say that they don`t lie. But I always use Marc Klaas as the perfect example. You`ve seen him here on our show many, many times. His daughter, Polly, was kidnapped, molested and murdered. When police first came to his door, he said, polygraph me, take my DNA, search my house, search my car, do it now, quickly, so you can go on and find the person that took my daughter.
All right? Now, I see your point. Let`s talk about it. Out to psychiatrist Dr. Janet Taylor, M.D., joining us out of New York, explain it better than I did. I`m using lay person`s terms.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Explain the definition of a pathological liar or the fact that -- I mean, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and in this case, with Casey, she -- there`s documented lies that she`s told even after the investigation started.
So it`s not really a matter of her being innocent or guilty. It`s the fact that she`s capable of telling lies to save herself from getting into trouble and to blame other people.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Taylor, one of our defense attorneys -- I think it was Doug Burns -- says these photos don`t prove a thing. And you know, speaking as a lawyer, it`s not DNA. It`s not an eyewitness. It`s not a confession. But to me it does speak volumes.
TAYLOR: Well, it speaks volumes from the sense of a behavioral standpoint. And when you`re looking at a disorder, let`s say a personality disorder or a different profile of an individual, what they may be capable of, certainly you want to examine their behavior and behavior around an incident.
Now I`m not an attorney, obviously, but certainly in my own practice that means a lot when you`re looking at that. And those pictures do not indicate someone who`s in extreme distress about the loss of their child.
GRACE: To Anne Bremner, what is she doing at a hot body contest after her daughter is missing?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t.
GRACE: I don`t think it`s funny. I`m not.
BREMNER: I think it`s horrible but let`s talk about the truths about deception with this defendant. You look at John Mark Karr, lied all the time, was innocent. Look at Joran Van Der Sloot, lied all the time, never charged. I mean those are the facts, Nancy, the truth about the deception.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My gas cans were stolen on the 24th of June. I mean there`s a report about that. They just wanted to come in and they`re lining everything up. They`re doing a thorough investigation. I said, whatever you guys want to take from my house, you want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?
CINDY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.
GRACE: To Tracy Sergeant, she`s here with her detection dog Sinco, they`re both from Homeland Security.
Tracy, do cadaver dogs actually alert on food ever?
TRACY SERGEANT, HOMELAND SECURITY: No, ma`am, they do not. That`s one of the training things we do with these dogs, that any distraction we might find out there, they are trained off of that. They are only to alert to human remains scent.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Welcome back. A lot of developments in the search for 2-year- old Caylee Anthony. We now learn grandparents meeting behind closed doors with police for hours today trying to re-establish the timeline.
Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, the timeline once again in disarray. How does an ex-boyfriend play into that?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: The ex-boyfriend told investigators -- well, he`s kind of recanting his story, as a matter of fact. Jesse Grubbs says that he thought he heard Caylee on the phone during a conversation with Casey. But since that time he says, maybe I just didn`t hear her. Maybe it was just Casey I heard. So he`s recanted. And he`s kind of backed off his story he told authorities.
GRACE: And this is a former Orlando cop?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I believe so, Nancy. And I`d have to check on that but, yes, because she was dating somebody who was working with the Orlando Police Department at the time.
GRACE: OK. So let me get this straight. This guy, Jesse Grund, former boyfriend, says to police, I called Casey Anthony June 24 and I heard her reprimand Caylee for being on a table and I heard Caylee in the background. Now he`s saying he`s not sure he heard Caylee in the background or he may be confusing the dates that he heard that scenario take place?
WILLIAMS: Yes. And the deal is.
GRACE: Gotcha.
WILLIAMS: The deal is that when Casey -- you know, you`d think she reprimanded Caylee. She may not have even been there, you know?
GRACE: Or he -- right. He may have heard that but Caylee wasn`t there because he didn`t hear her.
WILLIAMS: Right.
GRACE: OK, so Nikki Pierce with WDBO, that sets the timeline back to June 16th. First the mom placed the -- grandmother placed it on June 9, I believe it was -- no, June 8. Then suddenly she realized they were all together on Father`s Day, June 15, because she took video of Caylee on Father`s Day. The grandfather, I believe it is, saw Caylee the following morning, June 16.
Now is that the jumping-off point, June 16? Is that the day we`re working with now?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Ever since Jesse Grund recanted his original statement to police, which I believe was yesterday or earlier today, that sets the timeline back to Father`s day, June 16th. That is the last confirmed sighting of Caylee now.
GRACE: OK. June 16, a Monday morning. The Monday following Father`s Day. That`s the day we`re looking at as the last day Caylee was seen alive.
Now these photos that have just emerged in the hours before we go to air are of on -- aren`t they, Mark Williams, the 20th?
WILLIAMS: They`re five days after she was -- that she basically disappeared from the family. So it would be the 20th. There she is.
GRACE: And this is where she is.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRACE: All right. And she also says Caylee goes missing on the 16th. Is that correct, Mark Williams?
WILLIAMS: That`s pretty much it right there, Nancy. You hit it on the head. And five days later she`s out bumping and grinding with her friends at the Fusion nightclub.
GRACE: I`m just having a hard time absorbing these photos, everyone.
Out to the lines, Denise in Tennessee. Hi, Denise.
DENISE, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Love you, love the show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
DENISE: I`ve got a question. If all of the forensics and stuff comes back negative, could they charge her with child endangerment or something like that?
GRACE: They absolutely can.
Rosie, let`s pull down the sound of the judge speaking to her regarding child neglect and child endangerment.
Explain, Susan Moss.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, when a -- parents have obligations to take care of their children. And when they don`t, when they don`t meet that strict obligation, they can be charged with either neglect or endangerment. And that can lead to actually a felony. And in this case, I think that`s what`s going to happen.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Beverly in Canada. Hi, Beverly.
BEVERLY, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call and congratulations.
GRACE: Thank you for calling. Thank you.
BEVERLY: . on your nine-month birthday of your little ones. And I wish every parent would love and adore their children the way you do.
GRACE: Thank you.
BEVERLY: We need someone like you in Canada, believe me.
GRACE: Thank you. I take that as the highest compliment. What`s your question, dear?
BEVERLY: OK. The deceased father of little Caylee, I wonder if his parents are alive and, as the grandparents of little Caylee, has anybody from the authorities contacted them to see if they -- when was the last time they`ve seen Caylee or can they provide any information or assistance that may help the case and also give some insight as to that crazy mother that this little one has got?
GRACE: Nikki Pierce with WDBO, what do we know about that?
PIERCE: Well, investigators say that Caylee`s father is deceased and through an arrangement with Casey, his name isn`t even on the birth certificate.
Cindy, Caylee`s grandmother, has told the media that the paternal grandparents may not even know that they have a grandchild. So as far as we know, they`re not a factor at all in this case.
GRACE: It`s my understanding police have already investigated that avenue and have come up dry. I was mentioning in response to Denise in Tennessee what the judge had to say about child neglect. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Anthony, the court would say to you, where is Caylee Anthony? Well, I can`t -- I can`t force you to answer that question. But that`s the question I leave with you. Do you understand?
CASEY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You left your 2-year-old child, Caylee Anthony, with a person who does not exist in an apartment you cannot identify and you`ve lied to your parents and friends concerning your child`s whereabouts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Straight out to the lines, to Kim in Canada, hi, Kim.
KIM, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, you are a remarkable lady and a wonderful mother.
GRACE: Thank you.
KIM: Just -- you are amazing.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
KIM: I want to know what are the police doing to look for this little girl. And why are the grandparents so interested in defending their daughter and not looking for this little girl?
GRACE: Kim, I do believe the grandparents are looking for her. I really do. However, they`re also tunnel vision on the fact that they are getting sucked into everything that Casey Anthony is telling them. You`re right.
And as far as what the police are doing, in a nutshell, Mark Williams, I notice they have not done an AMBER Alert which was mentioned earlier. AMBER Alerts are issued when they think someone is missing. They believe she`s dead.
WILLIAMS: That`s what one of the investigators said a couple of week ago during Casey`s initial bond hearing. He got on the stand, and the prosecutor said what do you think happened to Casey? And -- or Caylee? And he says we think she`s dead, because that was after the cadaver dogs hit on two locations that find human bodies.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Katie, Tennessee. Hi, Katie.
KATIE, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Oh, Nancy, we just love you so much.
GRACE: Thank you to my friends in Tennessee. What`s your question, dear?
KATIE: The authorities dug where the grandparents live, where the cadaver dogs sniffed. Do you -- what did they find there?
GRACE: They hit in the backyard under that playhouse you keep seeing and in the back of Casey Anthony`s car trunk, they have found nothing except for those hair and fluid samples so far. The test results supposed to be back this week.
To Tennessee, Katie, thank you for calling in.
Everybody, let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Gregory Unruh, 28, Dickinson, Texas, killed, Iraq. A University of Houston grad. Awarded the Army Achievement medal, National Defense Service medal, an Iraq Campaign medal.
Graduating high school at 16. Fellow soldiers nicknamed him "Professor." Dreamed of law school and starting a family. Leaves behind parents Anthony and Sue, one sister, three brothers and widow Memette(ph).
Gregory Unruh, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friends.
END
