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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Do Presidential Candidates Know How to Solve U.S. Economic Woes?; Chaos in the Skies
Aired August 06, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf.
Tonight partisan blather on the campaign trail, no new ideas on how to solve our economic crisis. We'll have complete coverage from an independent point of view.
Also, charges of betrayal after a convicted illegal alien smuggler receives a shorter sentence than border patrol agents who shot him.
And chaos in the skies, airlines treating passengers like cattle. Is it time to re-regulate the airline industry? We'll have a special report. All that, all the day's news, much more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Wednesday, August 6th. Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening, everybody. Senator McCain today hammered Senator Obama on his economic policy and his character. Now, McCain saying this country needs what he called an economic surge. At the same time, the McCain campaign is stepping up its assertion that Obama is an empty-headed celebrity. And a hit back, saying McCain is embracing what he called the failed policies of the Bush administration. But counterattacks like that are failing to lift Obama's poll numbers.
We have extensive coverage. We begin with Ed Henry in Washington -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, while Barack Obama has been billing himself as the candidate of change, John McCain is now trying to seize that mantle back.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): A new one-two punch from John McCain.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The cost of everything is going up and in the face of this, Washington is on vacation.
HENRY: First, McCain is on the attack, charging government is broken and Barack Obama is too inexperienced to fix it. MCCAIN: My opponent, Senator Obama, opposes both storage and reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel. He opposes offshore drilling immediately, and he's out of touch.
HENRY: At the same time, McCain is trying to present a positive agenda, making the case he has better plans to improve the economy and solve the energy problem.
MCCAIN: We need to crack down on those who have abused our credit market and caused this housing decline. We need to take action to support American businesses so that we can stop jobs from going overseas.
HENRY: A tricky balancing act for McCain, who may come across as too negative. He's walking that same fine line in a new ad that again charges Obama is a celebrity, but with a forward-looking twist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL: Is the biggest celebrity in the world ready to help your family? The real Obama promises higher taxes, more government spending, so, fewer jobs. Renewable energy to transform our economy, create jobs and energy independence, that's John McCain.
HENRY: This ad is toned down. No images of Paris Hilton that were in last week's ad and prompted so much outrage in the Obama camp. Nevertheless, the previous celebrity ad has sparked a humorous response, from none other than Paris Hilton.
PARIS HILTON: Hey, America, I'm Paris Hilton and I'm a celebrity, too. Only I'm not from the olden days and I'm not promising change like that other guy. I'm just hot.
HENRY (on camera): Trying to go negative and positive at the same time may be a difficult balancing act for McCain. Whenever he attacks Washington, Obama reminds audiences that McCain has been in Washington for 26 years. The key for McCain is to restore his old reputation as a maverick, not an insider -- Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Thanks, Ed. Ed Henry, reporting.
Well, new evidence tonight of voter's continued skepticism about Senator Obama's candidacy. A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll says nearly a third of voters believe it would be very risky to elect Obama president. Now, this data could help explain why Obama seems to have stalled in the opinion polls. Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Every forecasting model for this election predicts a Democrat landslide. Strange, then, when you ask voters to choose between Barack Obama and John McCain, the polls show a very close race. Imagine if President Bush were running for re-election or if Dick Cheney were running to succeed him. Can you say blow out? John McCain is a Republican. But he's not part of the Bush administration as he takes pains to make clear.
MCCAIN: We've disagreed over the conduct of the war in Iraq and the treatment of detainees. Out of over -- over out of control government spending and budget gimmicks, over energy policy and climate change.
SCHNEIDER: A whopping three quarters of Americans believe things are going badly in the country. Voters who feel that way have a very low opinion of President Bush, but their displeasure does not seem to extend to McCain. They kind of like him. Barack Obama is new, he's young, he's relatively inexperienced. A lot of voters see Obama as risky business.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Basically what they're saying to you is we know you didn't do a real good job, but he's too risky.
SCHNEIDER: Obama is promising change. The downside of change is risk. If you want change, you have to take risks. The last time the mood of the country was this bad was 1980 when Jimmy Carter was running for re-election and Ronald Reagan promised change. People saw Reagan as risky, too. That election was close until the last week, when Reagan posed this question.
RONALD REAGAN, OCTOBER 28, 1980: Are you better off than you were four years ago?
SCHNEIDER: Senator Obama.
OBAMA: I just want to ask you a simple question, maybe a familiar one -- are you better off now than you were four years ago or eight years ago?
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: No.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The upside of risk is change. They go together -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider.
Well, a new poll indicates that many voters may already be tired of hearing about Senator Obama. Election day is still three months away. The Pew Research Center poll says 48 percent of voters say they are hearing too much about Obama. Just 26 percent of voters said they are hearing too much about Senator McCain.
Now, the results of the poll reflect the huge media coverage of Obama. Obama is receiving much more attention than McCain.
Well, the media today focused on the rising speculation about Senator Obama's possible running mate. Senator Obama today campaigned with one of those potential running mates, Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana. Obama praised Bayh, but made no mention of his vice presidential search. Candy Crowley reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is vice presidential season, so every picture looks like a campaign brochure, introductions sound like tryouts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Barack Obama's opponent, John McCain, is not a bad man, but he is badly mistaken when he has embraced the Bush and Cheney economic policies, and he is badly mistaken when he's embraced their energy policies.
CROWLEY: And standard fare is read through the prism of one of the campaign's real mysteries, veep or no veep?
OBAMA: I would like everybody to give a huge round of applause to one of the finest United States senators that we have, Evan Bayh.
(APPLAUSE)
CROWLEY: Barack Obama and Indiana's Evan Bayh have been chummy of late, joint press releases, some co-campaigning, and worth noting there was an Obama ad team crew shooting video of Bayh at this Elkhart (ph) event today. Hmm. There are non-denial denials all around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) vice president?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't cause any trouble here today.
CROWLEY: But for the day, anyway, and particularly in Indiana, the buzz is Bayh. A former governor, as well as a current senator, he's a Midwest moderate Democrat and a platinum name in Indiana politics. The state is still a Republican stronghold, but an Indianan on an Obama ticket could change the pattern of history, could it not?
SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Well, I'd like to think that kind of thing wouldn't hurt his chances, but on his own without any help from a native son or daughter, he is competitive in Indiana.
CROWLEY: As Bayh took Obama around Indiana, half a country away Michelle Obama was being escorted around Virginia by Governor Tim Kaine last Friday's buzz, either/or neither could end up on Obama's ticket. Trust me, said one Obama adviser, the people who actually know what's going on aren't talking.
(on camera): On the Democratic side anyway, expect the tea leaf reading body language watching to go on for a bit longer. Obama is set to take off for a vacation later this week, making it highly unlikely he will have a vice presidential announcement this week or next -- Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Thank you, Candy -- Candy Crowley reporting from Chicago. We'll have much more on the presidential campaigns later in the broadcast. Three of the best and brightest political analysts in the nation will join me here.
We have new developments tonight in the anthrax investigation. Now, government officials today say they are confident Army scientist Bruce Ivins was the only person responsible for the 2001 attacks that killed five people. But, as Jeanne Meserve reports, the evidence against Ivins is purely circumstantial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSEPH PERSICHINI, FBI ASST. DIRECTOR: Dr. Bruce E. Ivins was responsible for the death, sickness and fear brought to our country by the 2001 anthrax mailing...
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Scientific breakthroughs, the government says, genetically link the anthrax used in the attacks to a flask solely maintained by Bruce Ivins.
JEFFREY TAYLOR, U.S. ATTORNEY: The spores used in the attacks were taken from that specific flask, re-grown, purified, dried, and loaded into the letters. No one received material from that flask without going through Dr. Ivins.
MESERVE: The government alleges that during the anthrax probe, Ivins submitted false samples of anthrax from his lab to mislead investigators, and pointed the finger at other scientists. It says that Ivins could not adequately explain the long hours he was working alone in his lab around the time of the anthrax attacks, that the envelopes used in the attack were sold at a post office in the Frederick, Maryland area where Ivins had a post office box that Ivins frequently drove long distances to mail items, sometimes using fake names, and that Ivins had a long history of mental issues.
The evidence is all circumstantial. In a statement, Ivins' lawyer said, "the government's press conference was an orchestrated dance of carefully worded statements, heaps of innuendo and a staggering lack of real evidence, all contorted to create the illusion of guilt by Dr. Ivins." And some legal experts agree the case has weaknesses.
GUY SINGER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: They certainly do not have, you know, anyone saying they saw him mail it, anyone saying that he admitted it. It's a case that clearly has room for argument regarding reasonable doubt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: And what was the motive? According to the government, Ivins was concerned in 2001 that an anthrax vaccine program he was working on would be discontinued. The anthrax attacks guaranteed its future. Kitty, back to you.
PILGRIM: Jeanne, there were over a dozen search warrants against Ivins. What did they find?
MESERVE: Well, a number of interesting things. They came up with a number of guns, a lot of ammunition, a bullet-proof vest, homemade body armor. There were also mention of a note to Gene Dooley (ph). There were also a lot of computers and VHS tapes that were seized. But as far as we know, nothing that conclusively ties Bruce Ivins to the anthrax attacks.
PILGRIM: So, again, all circumstantial, correct?
MESERVE: That's what it appears to be.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Jeanne Meserve. Well we'll have more on the anthrax case ahead.
Also new controversy over Texas. It upholds its right to execute a Mexican citizen who raped and murdered two teenage girls. We'll have more on that in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A U.S. military jury today convicted the former driver of Osama bin Laden of providing material support to al Qaeda. But the jury in Guantanamo Bay cleared Salim Hamdan of terrorism conspiracy charges, these were the most serious charges against him. Now Hamdan faces a sentence of life in prison. He's been in U.S. custody at Guantanamo Bay since 2000.
Convicted rapist and murderer Jose Medellin was executed late last night in Texas. The U.S. Supreme Court and Texas Governor Rick Perry rejected Medellin's final appeals. This case drew international attention after the World Court said the United States violated Medellin's rights. And as Lisa Sylvester reports, the controversy continues tonight, even after the execution.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tensions were high as the hours ticked by. More than three hours after Jose Medellin was set to die, the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 order declined to stay his execution. The Mexican national confessed to the brutal gang rape and murder of two Texas teens in 1993.
His innocence was never the issue, but, rather, a technicality. If his case was somehow prejudiced because he was not allowed to contact the Mexican Consulate upon his arrest, a right guaranteed by the Vienna Conventions on counselor relations. The World Court at The Hague reviewed the case and ordered a new judicial review for Medellin. Medellin's lawyers said the United States needs to live up to its treaty obligations.
SANDRA BABCOCK, ATTORNEY FOR JOSE MEDELIN: It's about the reputation of the United States as a nation that adheres to the rule of law and it's about the commitment we made to Mexico and to our other treaty partners.
SYLVESTER: Amid protests and a flurry of last-minute appeals, the state of Texas maintained the World Court has no jurisdiction in the United States, only the U.S. Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court agreed because Congress never passed a law requiring the states to comply with the Conventions. The issue doesn't end with Medellin.
Some 50 other Mexican nationals remain on death row under similar circumstances. Representative Howard Berman has introduced legislation in Congress that would allow foreign nationals to challenge convictions if they are not informed of their right to speak to their foreign consulate. But the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, a victim's rights group, says the bill goes too far.
KENT SCHEIDEGGER, CRIMINAL JUSTICE LEGAL FOUNDATION: The Berman legislation goes vastly beyond anything the United States is required to do by its treaty obligations. The only obligation arising out of this judgment relates to the 50 or so cases that were actually at issue before the international court of justice. So a bill that would apply to all cases over all time is not required by our obligations and it's not good law and it's not good policy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And as for fallout from the Medellin execution, Mexico filed a diplomatic protest with the U.S. State Department after Medellin was executed and Mexico is still insisting that the U.S. government grant new reviews for the other 50 Mexican nationals who are on death row -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Well joining me now is our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Jeff, we'll start with the Medellin case that Lisa just reported on. It's Texas versus the World Court. What's your opinion of this case? What are the implications?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the World Court tried to tell Texas to stop this execution. And what the Supreme Court said just about a month ago was look, this sort of criminal justice matter is up to the state. The states have the last word. This execution will proceed. The question that the United States government is worried about is our citizens who are arrested abroad, will they be treated more harshly because of the way Texas treated Medellin.
PILGRIM: Any indications of any ripple effect then?
TOOBIN: Not yet. It's really too soon to know, but it's such an unusual situation. The Bush administration, which is not usually known for supporting the rights of convicted murderers, went to court to try to stop this execution, but failed.
PILGRIM: Right. Let's talk about Bruce Ivins and the anthrax case.
(CROSSTALK)
PILGRIM: As Jeanne Meserve reported, a lot of circumstantial evidence. The case is solved, but not closed, the Justice Department says. What does that mean? TOOBIN: Well they feel like they have their man so they feel like there's no point in investigating any further because the suspect is dead. Very unusual. The federal government almost never does it this way. But because of the enormous public interest, because of the public worry that another anthrax person could be out there, they decided to announce their findings. Their findings were very suggestive of guilt, but hardly proof. And at this point, there's really no way we'll know for sure.
PILGRIM: And so they hold a press conference, state all this, and then that's the end of it, is that right?
TOOBIN: That is really the end of it. There is no legal procedure still out there unless someone were to come forward and confess or something like that.
PILGRIM: A previous suspect, Hatfill, was just exonerated, right?
TOOBIN: He was exonerated. The extraordinary situation, the federal government paid him more than $5 million in apology. So this has been a very star-crossed investigation by the FBI. They now feel they have their man, but they never had the chance to prove it in court.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Osama bin Laden's driver. And, again, two charges. He was let off on the most serious charge of supporting the September 11th conspiracy to plan and assist in September 11th. But he was convicted of you know helping, aiding and abetting basically, right?
TOOBIN: That's right. This -- Guantanamo Bay has been open for six years. This is the first trial. It has been a tremendous international embarrassment to the United States, Guantanamo's extremely unpopular abroad, and this case will be appealed through the federal courts and it is far from clear that this sentence will stand up because the Supreme Court three times has already told the Bush administration what you're doing in Guantanamo is unconstitutional.
PILGRIM: This is a great worry about this whole process, isn't it?
TOOBIN: Well this is what happens when you set up a new process from scratch. We have federal courts that have been operating for hundreds of years. We know that the criminal justice system can work. What the Bush administration did is create a new system for the detainees at Guantanamo and repeatedly the Bush -- the Supreme Court has said this is not good enough, go back and try again. We'll see, as this case works through its appeals, whether they finally got it right this time.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
The nation's airlines are in a state of chaos. As you know, passengers are paying for it. We'll have a special report card on the chaos in the skies and what might be next for the airlines. We'll have that coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Communist China playing games with the Olympics, putting its national interests before the Olympic spirit. We'll have a report from Beijing coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The U.S. airline industry is struggling to survive the current financial crisis. But the industry seems to be doing its best to drive customers away. The flying public has to put up with long delays, declining services, charges for services that once were included in the price of a ticket. Bill Tucker has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Between flight delays in June 30 percent of all flights were delayed, luggage delays, checked baggage charges, most airline passengers have reached their limit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is very frustrating and it is unacceptable to me.
KATE HANNI, FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG: Most passengers are saying, just charge me for the ticket. Charge me for the cost of an actual flight and don't charge me for my bags.
TUCKER: But things don't end there, there are charges for food and drink, even charges for a pillow and a blanket. The industry calls it a la carte pricing. It's a big change from the traditional pricing of tickets. It means that the cost of a flight can be significantly more than the cost of just a ticket.
CAPT. JOHN PRATER, AIRLINE PILOTS ASSN. INTL: This system is not working. We need a -- we need a conference, just like we do on scheduling practices and capacity of airplanes. Let's put one together on pricing of the market.
TUCKER: In the past six months, the number of flights flown has been cut by more than eight percent. By the end of this year, the Airline Transport Association says about 100 smaller airports have lost or will lose at least one commercial airline, about 30,000 jobs will be lost.
And no one knows where the price of fuel will be, but it was up 70 percent from January through July. Already this year, nine airlines have gone out of business and two are in bankruptcy protection while they reorganize their businesses.
VAUGHN CORDLE, AIRLINEFORECASTS: Financial distress is quite dramatic today. We estimate the industry will lose over $6 billion this year, at $120 oil. And the balance sheets will take many years to recover. They can't put money back into the competitive resources, so customer service will actually get worse. TUCKER: The situation is so bad there are some that are calling for the re-regulation of the airlines, or perhaps for a government takeover of the industry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And there is one exception which we should mention, Southwest Airlines, which is advertising that they have added no add- on fees because the oil price hedge that they've had going. As a result of trades made years ago, Southwest says they paid about $51 a barrel for 70 percent of their fuel needs this year, instead of the current price of $120, so a smart play by Southwest. The rest of the industry though along with Southwest, which is also losing money, is in dire trouble.
PILGRIM: Yep, you know, Bill, you point out all through this piece it's a financial crisis for the airlines...
TUCKER: Right.
PILGRIM: ... but is there anything that Congress can do?
TUCKER: Well Congress needs to get an energy policy. The Airline Transport Association says the biggest single thing that anyone can do right now and the airline pilots agree with them, is pass an energy policy, stabilize these fuel prices. It will help the industry.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well that brings us to our poll tonight; do you believe that the airline industry has shown it is incapable of operating in the flying public's interest without government regulation? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. And we'll bring you the results a little bit later in the broadcast.
Border patrol agents Ramos and Compean betrayed again. You won't believe what happened to the illegal alien smuggler who testified against them when he was sentenced today. We'll have more on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Illegal alien drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was sentenced to more than nine years in prison on drug charges. He was the key witness in the case against former border patrol agents Ramos and Compean. There is outrage the drug smuggler received a shorter sentence than the two law enforcement officers who tried to apprehend him.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, an illegal alien drug smuggler, was sentenced by an El Paso federal judge to nine and a half years in prison for helping smuggle two large loads of marijuana into the United States in 2005. Later, Davila appeared in the same courtroom, under immunity from prosecution by U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton, to testify against border patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. They had previously intercepted Davila with another drug load near the border. Davila was shot and wounded after a struggle and escaped to Mexico. Ramos and Compean were convicted of assault, failing to properly report the shooting and using a firearm to commit a crime. They were sentenced by the same judge to 11 and 12 years in prison. Supporters are furious the smuggler who continued to run drugs while testifying against Ramos and Compean, received a shorter sentence than the agents.
MONICA RAMOS, WIFE OF IGNACIO RAMOS: How dare they compare a drug dealer to law enforcement officers? How can it be they would get almost the same identical sentence? My husband's been given a year more. Where's the justice system here?
WIAN: The jury that convicted Ramos and Compean was prohibited from hearing testimony about Davila's drug smuggling history. An appellate court recently overturned Ramos and Compean's convictions for failing to properly report the shooting, but upheld their convictions for using a firearm to commit a crime which carries a ten- year mandatory minimum sentence.
The agents say as Davila ran towards Mexico, they saw him turn towards them with a shiny object in his hand. Davila denied that during the trial. At his sentencing, Davila called the shooting an accident, which enraged Agent Ramos' family.
JOE LOYA, FATHER-IN-LAW OF IGNACIO RAMOS: You've been sentenced; they can't touch you anymore, why don't you tell the truth about Ramos and Compean?
WIAN: Congressman Duncan Hunter said in a statement, "The sentencing of Osvaldo Aldrete Davila offers the president yet another opportunity to do what is right and either pardon or commute the sentences of Agents Ramos and Compean."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Davila's attorney argued for an even lesser sentence because of his injuries and low rank among the drug smuggling organization. Judge Kathleen Cardone declined, saying she didn't believe him. She also discounted Davila's story that he was forced to continue smuggling drugs because he had to repay the cartel for lotion the first marijuana load. Prosecutors said despite Davila's guilty plea, they received little cooperation from the drug smuggler in going after higher ups in the drug cartel.
Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Well, this broadcast and many federal lawmakers are fighting to overturn the miscarriage of judges in the Ramos and Compean case. One of the congressmen leading the battle to clear the names of the two former border patrol agents joins me now, Congressman Brian Bilbray, from San Diego.
Thank you for being with us, sir.
REP. BRIAN BILBRAY (R), CALIFORNIA: Honor to be with you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Your reaction to the Aldrete Davila's sentence, less than Ramos and Compean?
BILBRAY: You know just disgust, dismay. You know if you talk about the injustice of the justice system. It's an oxymoron. We're talking about men and women that are along the board, fighting to defend our country, and this sort of reflects a prejudice against those who are serving as opposed to those who are the predators on our society, just crossing the border at will, and then using the abuse of our agents as some way to hide from justice.
PILGRIM: We're now joined by Congressman Dana Rohrabacher from Irvine, California, who will join us in this discussion.
Congressman Rohrabacher, your reaction to the sentencing today?
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: People need to pay attention to the details here. The prosecutors, now, are arguing that Davila, the illegal alien drug smuggler, was not a minor player, was a major player in a drug ring, and that he did this professionally. That's how he earned his living.
They never let the jury for Ramos and Compean know that. In fact, they wouldn't even have gone after this guy Davila if it wasn't for the fact that information was leaked to my office originally that showed that there was a second drug deal that this man had been fingered for. That, too, they wouldn't let the jury know about.
So this, today, not only the injustice of the fact you have these drug dealers receiving a smaller sentence or shorter sentence than the border patrol agents, but just the whole way this thing was done, calls into question the decision to prosecute these people in the first place.
PILGRIM: You know, we do have a quote from U.S. attorney Johnny Sutton. He released a statement about today's sentencing. He was the prosecutor. Let me read that for the benefit of our viewers. "I have been clear from the beginning of this case that my office would prosecute this drug smuggler when we had the evidence to prove his guilt. And thanks to the hard work of the agents of the DEA and DHS, homeland security office of inspector general, and federal prosecutors in my office, he is on his way to federal prison to serve the sentence that he so justly deserves." Your reaction to that?
ROHRABACHER: That's no big victory for us at all. Ramos and Compean, these are innocent men who protected us by putting their lives on the line, for 10 and 5 years on the border. They're still in prison -- I don't care what happens to that drug smuggler.
BILBRAY: And Sutton is totally missing the bat, of trying to cover himself on this issue. We're talking about a battle zone down there on the border. You realize three times more people have been killed by the drug cartel in the past month than all the men and women in Iraq combined in the last six months, and Sutton is now trying to cover himself on this thing. These agents were serving in an area where there had been firefights with drug dealers with automatic weapons. They are under pressure. There is border patrol agents everywhere.
Let me say this, this is not about two border patrol agents. This is about every man and woman who is down there at the border, fighting to defend our country, and we ought to be standing up and making sure this kind of injustice not only doesn't happen to these two agents, but no other agents. And make sure that we sent a signal to everybody who serve in our country, depending our southern border that we'll stand up and protect them and not allow this to happen.
ROHRABACHER: We need to hear from John McCain. We need to hear from John McCain and he needs to make his position very clear on this, he should be reaching out and saying, I will pardon Ramos and Compean, if he expects those of us who are concerned about the boarder to be -- to have faith in him that he's going to protect our national security interests.
PILGRIM: You know we pointed out on this broadcast that the Mexican military or law enforcement agents have illegally crossed the border 42 times since October. Border patrol agents were held at gun point by the Mexican military.
Congressman Bilbray, you talk about the deteriorating situation on the border --
BILBRAY: We didn't give them 10 years. We didn't take those Mexican police officers and give them 10 years because they committed a crime with a gun. That just shows you the selective realism they have down there. It's almost as if it's politically incorrect to be protecting the neighborhoods of America from these drug smugglers.
PILGRIM: Members of Congress have been asking since July of last year for President Bush to pardon Ramos and Compean. 75 members of Congress have signed a letter authorized by Congressman Ted Poe to commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean. No response from the White House.
ROHRABACHER: No response from the White House, but as I say, we are in a presidential election year. Everyone listening should make sure that Senator McCain goes on the record as to whether or not he will pardon --
BILBRAY: And Senator Obama.
ROHRABACHER: I've almost written off the democrats on this, but if he gets forward, I think it will be a good thing for his campaign.
BILBRAY: If he says he's for change, show us some change with the way you're treating our border agents. That's the challenge.
PILGRIM: That's a fair point. I'd like to point out a letter that Congressman Ted Poe wrote to the president. It reads, "The national attention given this case has had a demoralizing effect on the men and women defending America on our border, while at the same time, it sends the right message to criminals seeking to do our nation harm." Is there a long-term damage --
ROHRABACHER: We can see it every day right now --
BILBRAY: You can see it during the Fourth of July break that, I was up by smuggler's gulch and they were telling me snipers were shooting at them from the border. So this has already had not just an effect on the morale but also on the activity of the drug smugglers --
ROHRABACHER: Listen, every day, somebody in California gets raped, somebody gets run down by a drunk driver who is an illegal immigrant. Every day, we see our kids being short-changed in our schools, where we have our health care denied us because we have to wait in line behind a bunch of illegals who are in the emergency room. And every day, we're suffering here, because for the last 20 years we've had the wrong policy.
Now we have Johnny Sutton undermining the only -- the last line of defense we had, which our border patrol agents. He made the prosecutorial decision. He didn't have to -- he could decide who he could charge and who he would not charge. He decided to charge the border patrol agents and then he wasn't even going to let the jury know that this drug dealer that they intercepted was involved in a second drug deal. I mean this whole thing stinks.
PILGRIM: That pretty much sums it up. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher and Congressman Brian Bilbray, thank you very much for being here.
BILBRAY: Thanks for having us.
PILGRIM: A serious problem for the Obama campaign, new evidence tonight for why Obama is not pulling away in the polls. Could it be the risk factor? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Well, there's new polling evidence tonight on why Senator Obama seems to have stalled in the polls. It appears many Americans believe that Obama would be the riskier choice.
Joining me now are some of the best political minds in America. We have CNN contributor Ed Rollins, political director in the Reagan White House, former campaign manager for Mike Huckabee. We have fellow contributor Michael Goodwin, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist of "The New York Daily News." And Keith Richburg, New York bureau chief for "The Washington Post."
Gentlemen, we have to sort this out. These poll numbers are mesmerizing. Let's look at the first one. Would it be risky to elect Obama or McCain? Take a look at this poll, Obama, yes, 57 percent, McCain, 54 percent. The risky question, Ed, how legitimate is the risky question? ED ROLLINS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's a very -- I think part of what it tells you is the country's not satisfied with either one. And certainly Obama is a guy who's not been in the national horizon. Four years ago, he made a speech in Boston. That's when people started paying attention to him. He got elected to the Senate and he's been running non stop. So he's not experienced. Probably the least experienced man in modern time to run for president so that creates a risk factor.
MICHAEL GOODWIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's also a reflection of the fact that both Hillary Clinton and John McCain have run very similar attacks against limb, which is he's not ready, that all he's done, as Ed says, was give speech, doesn't have a lot of experience, is very young, looks very young, too. That, I think, plays against him now. The attacks I think are taking their toll.
PILGRIM: Keith?
KEITH RICHBURG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I just think that's all correct and I think the one thing is, he's going to have to address these things because I think it's a democratic year. He should be doing better. The headwinds are all there. The question is, why not?
PILGRIM: Yes. Part of it is perhaps media coverage. I don't know. I'd like to get your opinions. They did ask, another poll, are you hearing too much about Obama? And we do have that poll, if we could put it up. Too much about Obama. 48 percent of people say they're hearing too much about Obama. At a certain point, is it overexposure or --
ROLLINS: You've never had this long drawn out process where you have a daily poll, you know, it's just the process today, it's in your face, 24 hours a day. You know, 25 years ago, when Reagan ran, you had the three national networks. Now you've got cable -- you know, now you've got the drum beat 24 hours a day, and I think to a certain extent, the long primary, I think that's why. They probably have said the same thing about Hillary if she was there.
GOODWIN: Well also when you look at just the way the ratings went up say in cable or in broadcasts during the Clinton Obama race, I mean it was on all the time because the audience wanted it. I mean people would tune in. I remember back in March, I think there was a poll that said 73 percent were paying attention. It's an unheard of number in March --
PILGRIM: Initially, when we were doing the reporting, we'd say, it seems too early to talk about this but -- and just continue.
GOODWIN: Maybe it was now because people are tired of it.
RICHBURG: The irony here I have to say, on the one hand, I have to say, I don't know enough about this Barack Obama guy, I want to know more. On the other hand, they're saying, we're hearing too much about Barack Obama. It doesn't make any more sense.
ROLLINS: They want more substance and I think that's -- there's a lot of pictures, a lot of speeches. He's a tremendous candidate in the sense of a person about to go out and perform the things you need to do. People just don't know very much about him.
PILGRIM: I would like to turn to some sniping that went on today between McCain and Obama. They were basically going back and forth about an ad released by the McCain camp that said McCain is the original maverick. Here's what Senator Obama had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know Senator McCain likes to call himself a maverick. There were times in the past he did show some independence. The price he paid for his party's nomination has been to reverse himself on position after position, and now he embraces the failed Bush policies of the last eight years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: You know, this sort of maverick -- everyone looking for the maverick credential. It's because Americans presumably are so dissatisfied with policy.
RICHBURG: I think the republican brand this year is toxic for a lot of people and so McCain has to get back to what he lost last week when he got mired in the Britney Spears/Paris Hilton ad. He lost that a little bit I think and he's trying to reclaim that.
PILGRIM: It's sort of bitter back and forth all week actually.
GOODWIN: Right, but I think for Obama, that clip there, does reflect the fact that most of the discussions in the last week or so have been on McCain's turf. They've about energy, l or the drilling issue, they've been about Iraq. So I think Obama's looking to get back into his comfortable turf, which is this is George Bush's third term. So I think that's what that clip is about, trying to link him to Bush again.
ROLLINS: The two big issues that McCain was out of sync with his own party, one was the tax issue, Bush's tax cuts, which that hearsay in the Republican Party. And where he basically formed his alliance with Kennedy. Everything else, I think he's got about 85 percent conservative voting record over his whole career. But those are two big fundamental issues to have switched on.
PILGRIM: The voting record, many people won't bother to examine. They'll just sort of take the --
ROLLINS: He's enjoyed the impression of being, I'm not beholden to anybody, I stand up here, I'm independent. It's an interesting place to.
PILGRIM: All right. We're going to have more with our panel in just a moment.
First, a reminder to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe that the airline industry has shown that it is incapable of operating in the flying public's interest without government regulation? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few moments.
Coming up at the top of the hour "THE ELECTION CENTER WITH CAMPBELL BROWN."
Campbell?
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks Kitty.
In just a few minutes, a developing story that's sparking a lot of outrage tonight. As U.S. taxpayers shell out billions of dollars for Iraq, a brand-new U.S. government report says Iraq is raking in billions of its own, thanks to high oil prices, and taking it to the bank. We'll talk about that.
Also tonight, we'll listen to what the presidential candidates say about taxes, about jobs and about oil imports and we'll put their claims to our no bull test.
All that coming up on "THE ELECTION CENTER."
Kitty?
PILGRIM: We look forward to it, Campbell.
Please join Lou on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show." Go to loudobbs.com for local listings for the Lou Dobbs Show on the radio.
We'll have more with our political panel in just a moment.
Plus, communist China Olympic hosts are playing some nasty games of their own. Why an American gold medallist was told to stay home.
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PILGRIM: We're back with some of America's most astute political observers; Ed Rollins, Michael Goodwin and Keith Richburg. And with those credentials, we want to ask you about Paris Hilton. It's caused quite a buzz today. Socially, it's kind of interesting. Paris Hilton fired back at John McCain and let's just play it for the audience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS HILTON: But then that wrinkly white-haired guy used me in his campaign ad, which I guess means I'm running for president. So thanks for the endorsement, white-haired dude. I want America to know I'm, like, totally ready to lead.
OK. Here's my energy policy. Barack wants to focus on new technologies to cut foreign oil dependency and McCain wants offshore drilling. Why don't we do a hybrid of both candidate's ideas?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Well you got to give her points. And let's do the McCain camp --
GOODWIN: Really?
PILGRIM: We might. McCain camp response. We have it here. And it says, "It sounds like Paris Hilton supports John McCain's all of the above approach to America's energy crisis, including both alternatives and drilling. Paris Hilton might not be as big a celebrity as Barack Obama, but she obviously has a better energy plan." We also should add the Obama team was not responding today. But I'd like to get your thoughts on this entire --
ROLLINS: As an old white-haired man, wrinkling -- and I'm sure to her anybody over 30 is an old man. It's very clever. And the truth in the matter is, whoever thought the week before the Olympics, probably the last impressions people will have before we go to the convention is going to be about Paris Hilton and these commercials. To a certain extent, there's some brilliant in all of this. I can't quite -- sift it all out, but it's sort of has worked for both sides.
PILGRIM: It is August. But, you know, this actually will draw a lot of eyeballs on to the internet and a lot of younger kids will look at this and may actually have --
GOODWIN: It's a little bit like volley, volley, volley, volley, back and forth. No harm in any of these shots. But it just kind of keeps the game going in this kind of down period. I do think, though, that the polls we talked about earlier are showing McCain kind of inching up. I'm not sure it's statistically significant in the long run. Obama does seem to have stalled. Maybe this kind of thing is part of it, that the riskiness and the energy stuff it all kind of adds up.
PILGRIM: Keith, thoughts on this?
RICHBURG: I thought it was totally awesome. I think both sides should look at her for a potential vice president.
PILGRIM: Totally awesome?
RICHBURG: Totally awesome. I thought it was great. She got my vote.
PILGRIM: Well, while we're on such a serious topic, let's talk about vice presidential picks. Obama appearing. What are your thoughts on that?
ROLLINS: Evan Bayh would be a good traditional choice in the sense that he may put Indiana into play, which may not be in the play if he wasn't on the ticket. The only one that's going to be an "oh wow" on either side is Hillary.
PILGRIM: Any chance?
ROLLINS: I still think there's a chance that someone in the room has got to be arguing, this unifies the party, she's the strongest candidate for us. GOODWIN: I agree on both counts. I think Hillary Clinton still has a chance, but I believe it's going to be Evan Bayh.
PILGRIM: And Michelle Obama appearing with Tim Kaine in Virginia?
GOODWIN: Kaine just seems to be a riskier choice. I know they want to put Virginia in play, also Indiana in play, but it seems to me Bayh is a more developed, more experienced on the stump, and he's a Clinton supporter, too, which I think may go a long way.
PILGRIM: Keith?
RICHBURG: Exactly the same, Tim Kaine and Virginia could help you carry Virginia, but reinforces McCain's idea that this is an inexperienced ticket. I don't see Joe Biden, but, again that might actually overshadow Obama because Biden is so experienced. It might look like he's picking somebody to compensate. He doesn't want to do that.
PILGRIM: That's an interesting thought. Time is ticking. When will we hear?
ROLLINS: I don't think -- I think they missed their opportunity for the surprise attack. You know, we're now in the Olympics. The Olympics start tomorrow. You know, unless you want to try to break that environment, which is a high-risk environment, Barack's going on vacation, I think you're going to get right down to the convention again and he may do it before the convention which is smart and obviously McCain will have to come --
GOODWIN: That argues for a vetted person because you can't have surprises before the convention.
PILGRIM: We'll stay tuned. Ed Rollins, Michael Goodwin, Keith Richburg, thank you.
U.S. Olympics athletes apologized to communist China after causing a stir just days before the opening ceremonies. The Olympic hosts tell an American gold medallist simply stay home.
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PILGRIM: Communist China's Olympic host tonight are playing some nasty games of their own. They told a U.S. gold medallist he cannot attend the games and several of our athletes have apologized for trying to protect themselves from the Chinese capital's relentless smog.
John Vause reports from Beijing.
John?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty in a written statement, the four members of the U.S. cycle track team said they were sorry for causing any offense by wearing those respiratory masks when they arrived at Beijing airport on Tuesday. They said it was all just purely a health precaution and not an environmental or political statement. 200 American athletes have been given similar masks to wear, but U.S. Olympic officials say the cyclists should not have worn the masks at Beijing airport.
Besides, the Chinese say, what's the problem? In fact, according to state media, they're now predicting that the air quality for the opening ceremony should be, quote, "fairly good." And it had better improve pretty quickly, because believe it or not, behind me, somewhere, behind all that smog, is, in fact, the Bird's Nest national stadium.
And, meantime, the White House says it is disturbed that American speed skater Joey Cheek has been denied a visa for China. Cheek is part of Team Darfur, athletes who try to raise awareness of the genocide in Darfur and try to put pressure on China, which is supporting the Sudanese government. It could make for a very difficult moment when President Bush arrives here for the opening ceremony -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: John Vause, reporting from a very smoggy -- well, maybe just misty -- Beijing.
We do have tonight's poll results. 82 percent of you believe the airline industry has shown it is incapable of operating in the flying public's interest without government regulation.
We have time for some e-mail. Some of your thoughts. Jim in Colorado -- "I don't suppose the presidential candidates will ever discuss issues in depth. All they do is whine about each other, like a couple of toddlers. America should expand the requirement for candidates to be 35 years old mentally as well as physically."
Steve in Florida wrote to us -- "Lou, during this election year, as NASA is wondering if there's life on Mars, I'm wondering if there's intelligent life here on Earth."
And thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "The Election Center" with Campbell Brown starts right now -- Campbell.
