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Nancy Grace
Divers Search Ponds Near Home of Missing Florida Toddler
Aired August 08, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news. Police, they are desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl named Caylee after her grandparents report her missing, Caylee not seen for six long weeks, last seen with her mother.
Headlines tonight: Another jailhouse phone call between Casey Anthony and her family just released. We have that audiotape. And the clock is ticking on key DNA evidence results, including hair, fluid, even dirt taken from mom, Casey`s, car trunk, this as divers are searching lakes and ponds right now near the home. What will they find?
And a search warrant reveals Casey Anthony told police lie after lie after lie, and we`ve got more of them for you tonight. Also, the defense still fighting to get Casey Anthony out of jail. In the last hours, another motion filed with an appellate court to get the young mother`s bond reduced, this as that bombshell search warrant pokes even more holes into Casey`s story, sending the already complicated and confusing timeline even into more disarray.
And the so-called baby-sitter attached to the Sawgrass apartments -- she`s found, but police say she`s not involved and she doesn`t know Casey Anthony or little Caylee. But grandmother, Cindy, claims it is not the Zenaida Gonzalez mom, Casey, claims is connected to her daughter`s disappearance. With Casey (SIC) Anthony set to turn 3 years old tomorrow, still no sign of the little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: You people have no idea what we`re going through! You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me. You don`t care about her. You don`t care about my granddaughter. You don`t care none of this stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! I`m talking! I am talking!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Anthony, unbridled and outraged, so unlike the congenial George we are used to talking with, frustrated and angry, upset because he feels helpless.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Leave me alone! Leave me alone!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Cindy Anthony trying to keep the peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is he upset?
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: This is why he`s upset. Back off, OK, please, before I lose my husband right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy spoke with us after George sped off, pleading to give them space, telling us the family is falling apart.
CINDY ANTHONY: You guys see the tough George, the tough Cindy, the tough Lee in front of all you guys. We`re not like that all the time, OK? We`re falling apart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one day after Orange County investigators release new details in the case that show more lies from their daughter, Casey, that she never had any phone calls with the mystery baby-sitter and never got a call from Caylee after she disappeared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Did you ever call the baby- sitter on your cell phone or ever receive a call from the baby-sitter on your cell phone number?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I most definitely did.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of In Session, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Police are desperately searching for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony. Moments ago, another jailhouse phone call from Casey Anthony just released. DNA evidence results, including hair and fluid taken from Casey`s car trunk, due back at any time. And a bombshell search warrant pokes even more holes in Casey Anthony`s story. Where is Caylee Anthony?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think your sister is being truthful?
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: To the best of her ability right now, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sounding at times like his sister`s defense attorney, Caylee Anthony`s uncle, Lee Anthony, dismissed a recent statement by one Zenaida Gonzalez that she`s not Caylee`s nanny and never heard of the missing girl.
LEE ANTHONY: To try to pinpoint, you know, the idea that this is -- that that fits that person, it`s ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And detectives allege there was no phone call from a Zenaida Gonzalez or anyone at the time Casey said she talked to Caylee. But Lee insisted...
LEE ANTHONY: There`s plenty of calls that are unaccounted for. There are some calls that do not have a caller ID. Frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think that she was trying to cooperate with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But today, she didn`t. When Casey was asked by a corrections officer if she wanted to meet with her brother, Lee, she declined.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No reason was given for this. It`s the inmate`s right not to conduct a visitation, if they choose to.
CINDY ANTHONY: George is very angry about a lot of stuff, and he`s frustrated because he feels helpless because he can`t do anything to find his granddaughter.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m trying to find my granddaughter. You guys don`t care about this. All you care about is the sensationalism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Sweetheart...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! You understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!
CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my God. Calling you guys -- a waste, huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Hey, Case.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, I need a favor.
LEE ANTHONY: Sure.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can you get ahold of Jose and have him come and see me as soon as he can, like, today at some point?
LEE ANTHONY: Yes. Let me -- let me give him a call.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, if you could do that, I`d greatly appreciate it, you know, and give everyone my love, obviously. But I only have a minute to talk, so...
LEE ANTHONY: OK. Yes, I`ll do that right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: OK. I appreciate it.
LEE ANTHONY: All right. Love you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Love you, too. Bye.
LEE ANTHONY: Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And that is the brand-new jailhouse conversation just came out, Casey asking for her attorney.
Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director for WNDB news radio talk 1150. Mark, good evening. What`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Good evening, Jean. Well, it is day 24 of the search for missing Caylee Anthony. Thus far, no sign of her whatsoever. Today, dive teams from the Orange County sheriff`s office went to a retention pond in the neighborhood where George and Cindy Anthony live. They strung up a lot of crime scene tape around the lake itself, trying to prevent people from getting in there. And basically, what they did was, they were just out there looking for things. They found a couple of things, like three automobiles that were reported stolen, or believed to be reported stolen but nothing in connection with the missing Caylee Anthony whatsoever.
Also, transcripts released late this afternoon dealing with a phone call made last Saturday between Casey Anthony and her brother, Lee Anthony, Casey, of course, calling from the Orange County jail. In those transcripts released just a short time ago, Casey asked Lee to get ahold of her attorney, Jose Baez, and have him stop by the jail. In another part of the transcript, she said that she loved everyone in the family.
Also, expecting some DNA results back from the FDLE and possibly the FBI any time. We are just waiting for that. And of course, we`re talking about Casey Anthony`s web of lies. They`re not only big here in central Florida, but they`re also big nationwide. One of the biggest parts, of course, is the fact that she said this Zenaida Gonzalez who showed up yesterday and who said doesn`t know the Anthonys whatsoever -- but Casey said that`s who she gave little Caylee to.
Also, she alleged that one of her roommates was a woman by the name of Raquel Ferrell (ph) and worked as a hostess at the TGIFriday`s here in Orlando area. The cops checked it out. The company checked it out. They don`t have any record of this individual whatsoever. There`s lie number one.
Lie number two, of course, Lee Anthony handing over a lot of e-mail, a lot of Casey`s e-mail to investigators. On the string (ph) and on the thread was a gentleman by the name of Thomas Franks (ph) or Tom Franks, who works for -- allegedly worked for Universal Entertainment. They talked about an event, allegedly, that was going to come up. Well, cops e-mailed him. The e-mail bounced back, saying that the e-mail address is invalid.
And of course, Lee Anthony earlier today trying to visit Casey at the Orange County jail. The deal was, he went there early this morning, about 9:00 o`clock. They get a 45-minute visit. And the deal is, Casey refused three times to see Lee. Even the supervisor at the desk called to Casey three times, Would you like to see your brother? She said no three times. And that`s where things stand right now.
CASAREZ: All right, Mark. So much information. We`re going to discuss it all. But let`s go out right now to Natisha Lance, live at the scene in Orlando, Florida, for a vigil tonight. She`s a producer for Nancy Grace. Natisha, what`s happening at that vigil right now?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the it held off just -- the rain held off long enough just until the end, and the Anthonys are actually packing up right now. You can see them to my right over here. But it started about 6:00 PM this evening. A large crowd came from the St. Cloud area. A very beautiful ceremony. There was a lot of emotion. They let off balloons.
And this all sparked by a 12-year-old girl who was inspired by the search for Caylee Anthony. She and her grandmother put this together in just six days. They`ve become very close with the Anthony family. In fact, this little girl calls them Grandpa and Grandma. And they had a vigil today.
Now, the whole town has pitched in. There was food that was donated. The commissioner came and he spoke. The Anthony family spoke, as well, today. George Anthony speaking actually about that outburst that he had this morning, apologizing to the media for that.
And they once again just reiterated over and over again that they want Caylee home and they want everyone to keep them in their prayers.
CASAREZ: Natisha, tomorrow is Caylee`s birthday, 3 years old. Was that mentioned at the vigil tonight?
LANCE: It was. They sang "Happy Birthday" to Caylee while the candles were all lit. Everybody joined hands and sang her a big "Happy Birthday." Now, her birthday is tomorrow. There was some talk previously as to whether or not they were going to have a big birthday celebration, inviting the media. But they decided, as a family, that they`re going to do something very quiet and private just themselves together quietly. However, Cindy Anthony did give us her assurance that if Caylee comes home, as they hope that she does, that she will alert all of us. She has all of our phone numbers.
CASAREZ: And as the vigil continues tonight, also does the diving. I want to go to Tom Shamshak, private investigator out of Boston. Let`s talk about these dives. You know, the police are saying that this is a routine diving exercise. But yet the dives are being done at lakes and ponds about a half a mile from the home, very close. What are they looking for in those dives?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, these, Jean, would be normal investigatory measures. They`re coupling training exercises. But the real focus here is on looking for remains associated with this missing girl. What they`d be looking for would be, obviously, skeletal remains, a weapon, trace evidence. And it`s not out of the ordinary for them to be doing this. This has become the focus of a homicide investigation.
CASAREZ: Officially, it is a missing persons investigation, but you`re right, they have to go in all directions at this point. It`s been so long.
I want to go out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. You know, this is a forensic case. It truly is. We`re waiting momentarily for those forensic results to come back. But one thing I want to ask you, Doctor, is that normally, the FDLE does testing forensics. We`re talking about the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. We have found out that the FBI is doing testing on some of this forensic evidence. What is the difference here? What can the FBI do that maybe FDLE cannot?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, FDLE is a fully accredited laboratory. It`s an excellent laboratory, full capabilities. But the FBI has resources that county and state labs just don`t have. They have sophisticated instrumentation that can provide information that just can`t be accomplished through one of these other laboratories, like the FDLE.
And there is a lot of evidence here to be looked at, not only the evidence that was found in the vehicle, in the trunk, but also the evidence that we`ve been hearing about that`s been collected from the home, clothing and the other items that might provide -- might shed some light on what direction we should be taking.
CASAREZ: Back to Tom Shamshak for a second, private investigator. Since this is such is a huge forensic case at this point, and we know the car was abandoned, the car that Casey was driving -- and last night, Nancy focused on the pants, the pants that her mother inadvertently washed, put in her room. But there were also shoes and boots in that car, on the floorboard, in the back seat, shoes and boots. As an investigator, would you collect them? And what could you find from them?
SHAMSHAK: Absolutely. The footwear would contain possible vegetative matter, soil, blood, oils. And as Dr. Kobilinsky said earlier, the police will follow the evidence, and it will direct this investigation. And I think literally, this investigation is under the microscope.
CASAREZ: Yes, that is right. You know, I covered a case for Court TV -- now In Session -- and because the person was wearing the shoes, there was DNA underneath the shoes that normally would not have been there, of the victim. And that was some of the primary evidence.
Dr. Kobilinsky, I want to ask you very fast, when you`re in a situation with a mother and a daughter, a husband and a wife, obviously, the DNA is going to be all over each one of those people because they lived together. But when you`re talking about underneath shoes, that`s not normally where you would find the DNA of someone, correct?
KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s correct. Finding DNA is only part of the story. It`s got to be explained. Criminalists do reconstructions to try to understand how that DNA got where it got. So you`ll find DNA in the shoe, perhaps under the shoe. All of this has to be reconstructed.
CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go out to our first caller tonight. Mary from Kentucky. Good evening, Mary. Thanks for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
CASAREZ: Hi. Your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question was, her actions at the bars, and was she so upset over losing -- or at the death of her daughter that she`s trying to act alive or making herself feel like that she`s still alive?
CASAREZ: That`s a good question. Let`s go to Lillian Glass, Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." Dr. Glass, let`s look at the timeline here because June 15, June 16, the last time that Caylee was ever seen alive, four days later, Friday, June 20, that night, that`s when those pictures were taken, at the body contest at that nightclub. Is there remorse here? Is it covered up by laughter and partying?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I don`t know if it`s covered up, but it seems very, very strange. When a baby`s missing, the mother doesn`t usually laugh and party. That is very, very strange. And when you look at her whole behavior, it`s been strange. There`s been inappropriate laughter that the police have mentioned. She is not acting as a mother whose baby has been missing. So something is very, very peculiar that`s going on with her.
CASAREZ: Yes. And another thing that`s peculiar is this Zenaida Gonzalez, that she has said from the beginning that she gave her little girl to, but there goes not a Zenaida Gonzalez who says, I know of Casey Alexander (SIC).
I want to go to the attorneys. First of all, Gloria Allred, attorney and victims` rights advocate joining us tonight, Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, and John Burris, defense attorney. Thank you so much to all of the attorneys.
Gloria Allred, someone I respect so much and so happy to be with you tonight, there`s a question that I have. And you can figure everything out, so I want to ask you, all right? And this could lend some credibility to Casey, all right? Listen to this. Casey took investigators to an apartment complex, the Sawgrass apartments. And she said, That`s where I left my little girl. That`s where I left her, with Zenaida Gonzalez. Zenaida Gonzalez, who police have cleared at this point, independently said, I went to that exact apartment complex. I filled out an information card, and I looked at an apartment. It was several days after the last time Caylee was ever seen. Those two independent statements there -- how do you reconcile them?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, that alone would make it very interesting, except for one fact, Jean, and that is, apparently, the police have shown a photograph of that Zenaida Gonzalez to Casey, and she says that`s not the same Zenaida Gonzalez that she left her daughter with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Everybody has positive thoughts the little girl`s going to come home. You can do a lot more with positive than you can do negative. And right now, there`s a lot of negativity out there. And I`m getting tired and tired to have to justifying things.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Caylee Anthony`s grandfather, George Anthony, stepped out, we saw an outburst that reveals the stress his family is under.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not talking to anybody. Stay off my property. Stay away from me. Stay away from me right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He yelled at members of the media, who have been documenting his every move since 2-year-old Caylee was reported missing more than three weeks ago.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You people have no idea what we`re going through. You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me. You don`t care about her. You don`t care about my granddaughter. You don`t care about none of this stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: So much emotion. I`m Jean Casarez of In Session, for Nancy Grace tonight. Divers continue to search the lakes and the pond so close to the Alexander (SIC) home. And also, the DNA results. We`re expecting them back at any time, and investigators have told us they are testing a lot of things.
I want to go out to one of our callers, Kelly in Pennsylvania. Good evening, Kelly. Hi. What`s your call (SIC)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I would like to know why Casey is not in general population when she`s in prison. And how much -- why does she have so much phone access?
CASAREZ: OK. Very good question. Let`s go out to the attorneys. Let`s go to former prosecutor Holly Hughes right now. Does she have more phone access than normally someone would?
HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No, it doesn`t appear that she does. She has limited phone access. And she`s not in general population because she`s not in the state prison system, at this point, Jean. She`s in the county jail, which, of course, is a much smaller population. So you have a different cell set-up than you would in a state prison.
The only phone access she has is what`s allowed to everybody. There`s a certain amount of time she can use the phone each day. And she actually references that, Jean, in her calls. (INAUDIBLE) on the tape, she says to her brother, Lee, at point, I`ve only got a few minutes, call Jose, this is important, I need to get this out. So at this point, she`s not receiving any special treatment.
CASAREZ: But John Burris, very quickly, she refused to see her brother today when he went to the jail to talk with her.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that, given all that`s happening to her, she may be becoming very frustrated. There`s no one she talks to that`s being helpful. Plus, her telephone calls are being monitored. And so the fact that they`re being monitored, there`s really no privacy involved. So I can appreciate her not wanting to do any more talking. If I`m her lawyer, I`m advising her not to have any telephone conversations with anyone other than the lawyers.
CASAREZ: I bet you are. To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a missing Georgia woman, 31-year-old Melissa Haller. She was last seen Sunday driving to a Marietta park, but she never returned home. Her car was found abandoned and out of gas near Gaffney, South Carolina. According to family, Haller suffers from mental illness and is off of her medication. She is 5-feet-8", 120 pounds and has brown hair. Now, take a look at this. If you have any information, call Cherokee County police, 678-493-4200, or e-mail Melissaismissing@gmail.com.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of In Session, in for Nancy Grace tonight. We are waiting for forensic results from the FBI. Divers continue to search very close to the home.
Let`s go out to Joyce from Kentucky. Good evening, Joyce.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean.
CASAREZ: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, do you think Casey is holding out on her lies in case they do find little Caylee, that she can say somebody else killed her?
CASAREZ: Well, her lies are very, very interesting.
Very quickly, Nikki Pierce, what has she been referred to in the search warrants as far as a liar?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, there have been a lot of references to her not telling the truth. Several acquaintances, friend of hers, have said that she`s a habitual liar. She lied about her work. She lied about where she last saw Caylee. The list just goes on and on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, Case.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hey, I need a favor.
L. ANTHONY: Sure.
C. ANTHONY: Can you get a hold of Jose and have him come and see me as soon as he can, like today, at some point.
L. ANTHONY: Yes. Let me -- let me give him a call.
C. ANTHONY: Yes, if you could do that, I`d greatly appreciate it, you know, and give everyone my love, obviously, but I only have a minute to talk so.
L. ANTHONY: OK. Yes, I`ll do that right now.
C. ANTHONY: OK. I appreciate it.
L. ANTHONY: All right. I love you.
C. ANTHONY: Love you, too. Bye.
L. ANTHONY: Bye.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: You have no idea what we`re going through. You don`t give a -- you don`t care about me. You don`t care about her. You don`t care about my granddaughter. You don`t care about any of us.
Shut up, I`m talking. I am talking. I`m trying to find my granddaughter. You guys don`t care about that. All you care about is the sensationalism.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: He`s been angry every day. You just haven`t seen it, OK? You hear something that finally comes to a head, you know, stuff that festers, OK? Anger has been there since day one. He`s been.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: At who, though?
CINDY: Anger at the situation. Anger at the fact that Caylee is not home. Angry at a lot of things. Angry that, you know, we are helpless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace tonight. Another little bit of information, Casey Alexander`s mother, Cindy, who you just saw on the screen, she has said that she will take a polygraph examination swearing to the fact that she has heard the name of Zenaida Gonzalez for several years now, that it`s not just a name her daughter fabricated.
We got a caller, Sheila in Wisconsin. Good evening, Sheila.
SHEILA, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi. My question, is -- since we don`t know if it`s the babysitter that looked at the apartment or if it`s Casey and whoever showed the apartment, did they copy the driver`s license since it was in a bad area, isn`t there some kind of surveillance camera or something that we could look at over there?
CASAREZ: Great, great question, because surveillance cameras are very common on apartment complexes.
Let`s go out to Nikki Pierce, reporter with WDBO Radio. Any possibility there is a surveillance camera on the property at the Sawmill Apartments?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: If there`s a surveillance camera it -- or surveillance system of any kind, it hasn`t been discussed. They did say that they took Zenaida Gonzalez`s driver`s license and they looked at it, they wrote down her information, but they didn`t take a copy of it. They said that they showed her an apartment and that was the extent of the involvement.
As I understand it, investigators did take some pictures out to the person who showed the apartment and they did identify the Zenaida Gonzalez that was found by a local television station as the person who came to look at the apartment.
CASAREZ: I have to reiterate, that is a very strange coincidence.
PIERCE: It is.
CASAREZ: . that Zenaida Gonzalez actually went to that apartment complex a few days after Caylee went missing. But yet, just as Gloria Allred said to us, the family of Casey said -- and Casey herself said, oh, no, that`s not the Zenaida Gonzalez that we`ve known for several years.
Let`s go back out to Gloria Allred, attorney, victims right advocate.
Gloria, there are victims in this case. Of course, Caylee, she is our primary victim. But do you see any other victims along the way at this point?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, again, I agree with you, Jean, that Caylee is the primary victim. In a way, Caylee`s grandparents are also victims, perhaps, of their own intentions to try to find Caylee and to try to deal with the media themselves, which I think they`re not really doing successfully.
But, of course, how could they, because they have no training, they have no idea, they really have should have somebody assist them and represent them because right now it`s just getting out of control. Their nerves are raw. They`re expressing their emotions.
Some of the things they`ve said in the past really are not helpful to finding Caylee, not helpful to Casey, even though they intend it to be helpful.
CASAREZ: And that`s exactly what I was thinking because people are saying, gee, this family is coming out before the cameras every single day, but they`re trying to find their granddaughter. There`s a little girl that`s lost. She`s missing. And they believe, maybe very rightfully so, that the only way to find Caylee is for their presence continually on the medium.
Gloria, let me also ask you about Zenaida Gonzalez. She is saying that she can`t go anywhere because people hear her name and that`s it. She can`t get jobs or service.
Could she have a civil claim at all at the end of this?
ALLRED: Well, she might or she might not but let`s assume for purposes of discussion that she did, and that she had it against Casey. Under the heading of "you can`t get blood from a stone," if she sued Casey and was successful, there`s nothing to get. Casey has zero. She doesn`t have any assets. I don`t know that she is going to have any. And if she is convicted, she`s not going to be able to be employed for a long time, if ever.
And so, you know, I don`t think that it`s likely that any case would be pursued or that any attorney would invest any time in pursuing a case against Casey.
CASAREZ: So right, Gloria.
John Burris, defense attorney, I want to talk about -- you know, we do have formal charges here of child neglect. There`s going to be a defense. What is that defense going to be?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, right now, obviously, the question is whether this is murder or not. I mean, she has the child neglect issue and she`s going to have to deal with that.
I think the more question I see here is this woman`s mental stability. And I think some kind of defense is going to have to be focused around it. It assumes that, one, the child is found and there`s a homicide involved. Then all eyes are going to turn to the mom in terms of how that happened. So you`ve got to have an alibi defense it wasn`t her, she was somewhere else. That`s certainly one thing.
If she doesn`t have an alibi, then she`s going to have to have some kind of defense that goes to mental stability. Everything I`ve heard about suggests that she is not at a particularly stable person. It`s not -- that doesn`t necessarily mean she has a defense around that.
But I think as a defense attorney you got to develop this to see where it goes given how she presents herself so far.
CASAREZ: But here`s the problem. She took investigators to Universal city where she said she worked. She got there. Security said, no, you don`t work there. She said, yes, I do. And so security allowed all of them to go inside and the investigator said take us to your desk.
And she walked forcefully, they said, with purpose to her desk. She finally turned around inside Universal and said, you know what, I don`t work here at all, I just don`t.
That shows, John Burress, a state of mind she knew exactly what she was doing, she was lying and then she decided at the very last minute, you know what, I`m not going to get away with this, I better tell the truth.
Let`s go to.
BURRIS: Yes, it`s true. I mean it`s true that she does -- that doesn`t mean she has a personality -- don`t have a personality disorder because she can carry out certain kinds of activities. I`m just saying given all that we know, you`ve got to look at her mental state.
If she doesn`t have an alibi -- and the alibi is she was somewhere else, she was not involved in it, but if it`s clear she was, then she`s got to deal with the whole question what is her mental state.
And as a defense lawyer you want to go through analytically and determine what is the mental state that`s required for each aspect of the defense and see if there`s something that, obviously, has some impact on that. You don`t really know until you really get into and start looking at her and doing some test results which I would do, I`d have a psychological workup done on her immediately to figure out there`s a personality disorder.
People do not habitually lie just to lie. So there`s something may be going on with her.
CASAREZ: All right. Marlene in Florida, good evening, Marlene, what`s your question?
MARLENE, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Good -- I`m sorry, good evening. I got nervous. Do you think she could be pulling a scam and she`s acting this way because she knows her daughter is alive and she got lying and now she - - the lie got bigger and bigger and everything is getting out of hand to maybe -- what do you think?
CASAREZ: Well, I think that`s a great question, Marlene.
Let`s go to Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, who has dealt so much with this. What do you think? Do you think that possibly this little girl is alive and she`s just continually lying so she can`t get caught in her own lie?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Unfortunately, Jean, I don`t think she is alive. I think this little girl was killed probably accidentally in a moment of anger and everything that Casey has been doing since then is to cover it up. Of course, she hasn`t been charged with that. There`s been no body found but if you look at her pattern of behavior -- and Jean, you know this as a lawyer.
There`s a huge difference between being crazy and being nuts. And the situation we see here with Casey is she`s engaging in some pretty nutty behavior. Her daughter is allegedly missing and she`s out there feeling up another woman. You look at these photographs and she`s grabbing another woman`s breast and laughing and having a great time.
This is not the pattern of behavior of a woman who is worried about her daughter. I agree with the caller. I think she`s trying to set up a psych situation and it`s like I used to tell a defense attorney, well, they did this and they -- you know, I smell a psych. I think that`s what she`s going to argue. She`s not going to be successful.
The difference in court is if you know the difference between right and wrong, it`s called the McNaughten rule. If she knew the difference between right and wrong in killing that child, whether it was accidental or not, and covering it up, that`s what`s going to be important, not whether or not she`s behaving inappropriately or she`s doing all these things after the fact to make herself seem like she`s not in the right mind.
You look at these e-mails that are made up apparently. She`s making up e- mails and sending these to herself for people who don`t even exist. That may mean she`s a little nutty. It`s not going to hold up in court as crazy, Jean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY: The babysitter took her a month ago that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself.
There`s something wrong. I found daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: I`m not going around and around with you. You know that`s pretty pointless. I`m not going to go through -- not going to put everybody else through the same stuff that you`ve been putting the police and everybody else through the last 24 hours and the stuff you`ve been putting mom through for the last four or five weeks.
I`m done with that. So you can tell me what`s going on. Christina would love to talk to you because she thinks that you will tell her what`s going on, frankly, we`re going to find out something, whatever`s going on it`s going be found out so why not do it now. Save yourself.
C. ANTHONY: There`s nothing to find out. There`s absolutely nothing to find out. And that`s even what I told the detectives.
L. ANTHONY: Well, you know, everything that you`re telling them is a lie.
C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is. If I knew where Caylee was do you think any of this would be happening? No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace tonight.
One of the latest things that has come out of all of this is a jail house conversation just released shows Casey is asking for her attorney, asking her brother for her attorney. But yet, when her brother went to the jail today to talk with her, she refused to see her brother.
Let`s go straight out to Natisha Lance, producer for NANCY GRACE, who is live at the scene right now of a vigil taking place in the Orlando area for little Caylee tonight.
What`s the latest, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, latest is, Jean, that pretty much everything has cleared away. The Anthonys just drove off. People are still cleaning up a few things. But all in all, it was a pretty successful event. There were nearly 100 people who were here. They were expecting about 150 to 200 and the Anthonys seemed very pleased.
There was a bit of a receiving line at the end where everyone was coming up to them and giving them well wishes, giving them hugs, and just sending their prayers for them.
CASAREZ: Well, that`s wonderful. So I would assume that it would really help them and their emotions because of so -- an influential of so much that is going on with this family.
You know, this is a forensics case and it`s a forensics that have not come back yet from the FBI.
I want to go back to Tom Shamshak, private investigator out of Boston, because one of the forensics that is going to come back, which we don`t know about yet, we haven`t talked about recently, are those gas cans.
Investigators executed a search warrant at the home and took out two gas cans. Now, the family is saying that, yes, Casey broke in, got the gas cans, but she`s done that numerous times because she needed gas and she didn`t have the money.
But, Tom, forensically speaking, what are they going to look for on those gas cans?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, the first thing they will be looking would be fingerprints, her fingerprints and possibly somebody else`s fingerprints beyond the family members. Those cans could be.
CASAREZ: But if she had already gotten the cans before and she needed gas, her fingerprints would be on the gas, right?
SHAMSHAK: They would, but they`ll be looking for any kind of chemical composition to indicate possibly that it was used in a fire, if you will.
CASAREZ: All right. Let me ask you this. If the gas cans were possibly put in the trunk -- and we know that the cadaver dogs alerted to something in the trunk -- if those gas cans at all touched a body, would they then take those gas cans now privately with the cadaver dogs to see if there was a hit?
SHAMSHAK: Of course, they would. And I`m sure that they would take them to the lab and they would be, again, put under the microscope and analyzed for whatever forensic value may be there.
Then the gas cans might have been put in the trunk to emit an odor to disguise whatever pungent odor. And it`s preposterous to equate a rotting piece of pizza with the decomposing of a body.
CASAREZ: Right, right. Two different things.
Let`s go out to the great state of Texas, Trisha. Good evening, Trisha.
TRISHA, TEXAS RESIDENT: Good evening. My question is, I was wondering, they said that they were waiting for DNA test results to come back today.
Is that something that they would release over the weekend? Or will they hold off until like the beginning of next week now?
CASAREZ: Very good question. Let`s go out to our forensics scientist Dr. Kobilinsky. When would they release those results once they`re in?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, there`s no reason to hold back. If they have the results now, they would have released it now. Perhaps they`ll have it tomorrow. They will be doing the regular DNA analysis to see if that stain was Caylee or they will be doing mitochondrial DNA analysis to examine the hair.
And let`s also remember that there was some soil sample in the trunk of the car as well that they`re going to be looking at microscopically.
CASAREZ: Let`s talk about that soil sample because you can say why is that important. But the fact is next door neighbors said that Casey had borrowed a shovel. She took that shovel back to the home, only had it for about an hour and then returned it.
But are they going to try to possibly match soil, dirt that was found in the car to dirt in the backyard?
KOBILINSKY: Yes. I think, Jean, that`s probably what they will attempt to do. It`s a very simple, inexpensive instrument that is used in the analysis, a polarizing microscope. And they look for the mineral content. And of course, what they`re going to be doing is always checking a question sample against a known sample and if the mineral content matches, they`ve got a match. Sometimes it helps identify the location that that soil sample came from.
So, again, if they had the information, I don`t see why they would hold back. They would have revealed it already. It could be another day or two. And we`ll hear about the DNA results.
CASAREZ: All right. And it`s also important that stain -- there was a presumptive positive result for that stain. That means they believe that there was human fluid right there.
Tonight, now, CNN "HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.
VIOLA VAUGHN, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: When a girl reaches the age where she can help in the house, the mother starts keeping this girl at home. That girl begins missing school, missing home work. And she starts to fail. It`s a downward cycle.
My name is Viola Vaughn, I came to Synagogue from Detroit, Michigan. I started a girl`s education and self-sufficiency program.
We take girls who have already failed in school. They learn how to perfect a skill, to produce products for exports.
In the sewing workshops, they make sheets, they make dolls, they make any kind of household linens. Half of the funds goes back to them. The remainder goes into an education program.
Come on, give me a hug. We do this all the time.
They are passing school, they are opening businesses, and I see the success. Right now we already have seven girls in universities.
It`s their program. And they run everything. I`m there just to make sure all the i`s are dotted and the t`s are crossed.
Here I am retired and this is the best job I have ever had in my life.
ANNOUNCER: Get involved. CNN.com/heroes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASAREZ: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police desperately searching for a beautiful little girl, Caylee, after her grandparents reported her missing.
CINDY: My granddaughter has been taken. The babysitter stole her.
CASEY: Her name Zenaida Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police are not ruling out that Casey Anthony may have posed as the alleged babysitter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person that you dropped Caylee with doesn`t even exist.
CASEY: They haven`t listened to a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thing I have said.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: I have got news for you, Casey Anthony, the place have listened. Everything you told them trying to help them find your daughter is a lie. Lie after lie after lie.
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Dropping the child Caylee off with Zenaida, a big, fat lie.
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, ALLEGED BABYSITTER: Why would you choose my name of all the people in Florida because I have nothing to do with them, I have never met them.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Anthony asked his daughter where is Caylee.
G. ANTHONY: Dad, she`s safe. You know I got to believe her that she knows where -- everything is OK.
CINDY: Casey is telling us that Caylee`s life is in danger and I believe that.
CASEY: In my guts she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s close to home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities describe Casey`s claims as a web of deceit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is the key to this investigation. She knows what she did.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is Caylee Anthony? Is the 2-year-old Florida girl alive or dead?
WILLIAMS: And are you ready for this? Caylee is alive, she will be at her 3rd birthday party which is this Saturday.
CINDY: She`s coming home.
GRACE: The family planning to have a birthday party for little Caylee whether she`s there or not, a birthday party is going to go down.
CINDY: I`m not giving up just because her birthday is Saturday.
GRACE: Who knows what the truth is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CASAREZ: Tonight, let`s stop -- start to remember Army Staff Sergeant Christopher Hake, just 26 years from Ennis, Oklahoma. He was a graduate of the University of Oklahoma Bible Academy. Hake was on a second tour of duty.
He loved exchanging e-mails with his family, helping his wife renovate their home, soccer, boating, skiing, even music.
Hake leaves behind parents Peter and Denise, two sisters and two brothers.
Christopher Hake, an American hero.
Thank you so much to all of our guests and to you being at home being with us tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, everybody.
END
