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Nancy Grace
More Charges Contemplated Against Missing Florida Toddler`s Mother
Aired August 12, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for eight long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. As we go to air, late-breaking report. Are police set to file more criminal charges against mom, Casey? For a second day in a row, police bring out the K-9 units to search a heavily wooded area near little Caylee`s home, police now honing in on specific days just after Caylee last seen, Father`s Day weekend, attempting to ping or trace mom, Casey`s, calls retroactively, this while yet another family jailhouse visit is canceled. In fact, all family visits canceled since formal charges handed down against mom, Casey.
The Anthony family reveals today they are convinced little Caylee is alive and has been kidnapped, even claiming they know who has Caylee and they are, quote, "being watched." But by who? Psychics now in on the search for Caylee. DNA evidence, hair and fluid, taken from mom, Casey`s, car trunk still under lock and key. But just hours ago, police tip their hand, revealing they have more than DNA. Tonight, where is 3-year-old little Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new development in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, has canceled a jailhouse visit scheduled for today but did not give a reason why. The jail says that Lee Anthony has suggested that he might reschedule the appointment for later in the week. In another shocking twist, Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, said that the people who have kidnapped Caylee are being watched, and they know it.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: They`re people know that they`re being watched. They know it.
QUESTION: Who are these people?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I really can`t get into that with you.
QUESTION: Is there people out there who could help you find these people?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you would think the people who have my granddaughter right now would be smart enough to say, Oh, listen, I got to turn this little girl back in to her family. I don`t want any more of this going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police continue to search for Caylee, with reports saying investigators for the second straight day searched a wooded area near the Anthony home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people keep talking about the hair and the stain. So there`s -- I think that a lot of people in the public think that that`s all we have. My understanding -- again, I don`t know how many pieces of evidence they have, but there`s a lot of things that they`re looking at. And I guess they`re waiting until they get results on everything before we (INAUDIBLE) and that way, we can put this puzzle together (INAUDIBLE)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Every day, I think we`re getting closer and closer to finding her, so...
QUESTION: You still believe she`s alive?
CINDY ANTHONY: Oh, absolutely. I feel her. I know she`s alive. I know my daughter. I just -- you know, that gut feeling that made me call for help is the same gut feeling that I know she`s out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A local Orlando TV station is reporting that Casey Anthony may be facing additional charges. A source tells the station that authorities would be open to anything that would put more pressure on Anthony. The station also reports that boyfriend Tony Lazzaro (ph) told investigators that he never heard Anthony talk about searching for Caylee and said Anthony was not in a panic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can Tony tell me anything?
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Tony doesn`t know anything. And I haven`t even talked to him since this morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has Tony seen Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: Tony hasn`t seen Caylee since the beginning of June.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local media is reporting that for the second day in a row, investigators searched an area near the Anthony home after receiving a tip of a distinct smell in the area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re trying to put together where Casey may have been at any given time. She was gone for 31 days. Her own mother doesn`t know exactly where she was those 31 days. So we have to try to put pieces together to try to figure out, at any given day, Where could she have been?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that test is going to come back, that it`s not going to be anything. There`s different smells that all of us can associate with different things with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In another breaking development, just one day after Casey Anthony refuses a visit from her parents, Anthony`s brother cancels a scheduled visit with Casey Anthony.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: We`re completely behind you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know.
LEE ANTHONY: And being completely behind you, our entire focus, all our days, every second of every day is consumed with what can we do to find Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Oh, absolutely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony told an Orlando station that the kidnappers who he claims took Caylee are being watched, and they know it.
GEORGE ANTHONY: And these people that are out there that we feel might have been involved in something -- and again, that`s just speculation on my part -- yes, they`re being watched. They might not know, but they`re being watched. I wish this person, the persons that had her would call up and say, CNN, I have this little girl. I believe she`s the little girl who`s missing from Orlando, Florida.
The person or persons that has my granddaughter right now, I`m hoping something will click in their brain or in their heart and they`re going to say, My God, I can`t believe that we`ve held her, we`ve kept this girl away from her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A just released report says tot mom Casey, Anthony may be facing additional charges. A source told an Orlando station that they may charge her in the hopes of putting pressure on her to get her to talk. In addition, boyfriend Tony Lazzaro reportedly told investigators that Anthony never seemed in a panic over her daughter`s disappearance.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives, to make other phone calls, to do other things. I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds like I want to. I can`t.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lazzaro also reportedly told cops that Casey Anthony never talked about searching for Caylee.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does Tony have anything to do with Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. Tony had nothing to do with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. So why do you want to talk to him? You probably don`t want to tell me.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because he`s my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn`t get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on a (DELETED) whim today.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nothing to indicate that she`s not alive. Obviously, you know, statistically and historically, one of the facets of life is that these things sometimes, more times than not, unfortunately, don`t turn out well. But right now, we have nothing that we can say this child is not alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk, joining us from Orlando, Florida. Mark, police just reveal that they`ve got a lot more than the DNA. What do they have?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, first off, they have, like, 1,300 leads they`re sifting through. They`re keeping a lot of things close to the vest right now. Investigators have been working this case 24/7 for the past month or so, hoping to come up with something. Again, they just keep working. They keep working, working, working, even deputies out in the street looking for clues right now.
But Nancy, I guess the biggest thing right now is the fact that more charges may be filed against Casey Anthony one of these days, probably in the next two to three days. The reason being is that she allegedly stole $700 from a friend. And then they may get her -- charge her with using unauthorized use of her parents` credit card when she wasn`t there. Those are the two charges.
Also, the other thing, Tony Lazzaro, again, her boyfriend, talking to investigators. And what investigators now are trying to do is really pinpoint where she was between Monday, June 15, and Wednesday, June 18. Tony Lazzaro said that Casey lived there with him on and off at his apartment for those three days. During those three days, he said that Casey never said anything about Casey -- Caylee missing or if she was in a panic, nor did he ever see Caylee whatsoever.
And of course, investigators looking at her very important cell phone records. They`re trying to ping those towers to see where that phone hit, to track her exact movements during those three days, Nancy.
GRACE: Mark Williams joining us, with WNDB Newstalk. We`re taking your calls live. Mark Williams, you say police have honed in on the dates June 15 to June 18. Now, I know that Caylee was seen on June 15. It was Father`s Day. And apparently, she went to go see her great-grandfather in an assisted living home, or wherever he may be. So we know where she was on the 15th. The family, apparently -- the grandparents apparently saw her the morning of the 16th. So we`ve got the 16th to the 18th we`re talking about. Why? Why, Mark Williams, have police honed in on those 48 hours out of 31 days?
WILLIAMS: Well, there was a flurry of phone calls from Casey Anthony to her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, on the 16th, later in the day on the 16th. They don`t know why because she couldn`t reach her parents. And that`s obviously the day that investigators believe that little Caylee disappeared and has not been seen since.
GRACE: And I want to go out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport." Pat, there`s been a lot of reports that there are suspicions little Caylee died in an aboveground pool there in the back yard. But if that were true, she died of an accident in the pool. Why not call 911? Why not call paramedics to try and revive her?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, that would be an assumption, Nancy, that she died in an accident. And from the behaviors we`re seeing from Casey, which are scarily psychopathic, it may be that she wanted this child out of her life. So it might not have been an accident. And if that were true, maybe she had to figure out something else to do with her.
GRACE: And to clinical psychologist Patricia Saunders. What do you make of the pairing -- I always say no coincidence in criminal law -- that she was spending a great deal of time living with, on and off, a boyfriend during those weeks, and those are the weeks the little girl goes missing?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I have to agree with Pat Brown about psychopathic traits. There`s a callousness in so much of Casey`s behavior -- the partying, the boyfriend saying she didn`t panic. That is one of the hallmarks of the psychopath, with -- yes.
GRACE: A hallmark of the psychopath. Interesting what you just said, Dr. Patricia Saunders.
Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Patricia is right. Not only did she not panic, according to boyfriend Anthony Lazzaro, with whom she was living at the time the little girl goes missing, she didn`t even mention her daughter was missing or her search for little Caylee. What does that suggest to you? And what are the reports about that, Nikki?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, reports are saying that Tony Lazzaro was told, Oh, well, Caylee is with the nanny, Caylee is at Disney World with the nanny, at the beach with the nanny. So he had no idea this entire time that Caylee was missing at all. Casey`s behavior did not communicate to him in any way any sort of panic, any sort of concern. As you said, she never mentioned it. The first time that Tony Lazzaro found out that Caylee was missing was when deputies knocked on his door.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Let`s unleash the lawyers. Victims` rights advocate, you know her very well, Gloria Allred, joining us out of LA, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing arguments," he`s the star of upcoming show "Street Court." Welcome to all of you.
To Ray Giudice. She`s living with this guy for about a month on and off, and she never mentions, My baby has been kidnapped. She never cries. She never gets on the phone to try to find the little girl. They never go out hunting the neighborhood. How are you going to work with that? How are you going to massage that at trial, Ray Giudice?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would say it`s a significant problem, as you pointed out. But let`s not forget, if I`m everybody around this girl, I`m clamming up. I`m not `fessing to any involvement with this child because there`s no question that this young lady is going to point her fingers at everybody around her, and maybe even this boyfriend. So if I`m him, I`m going into a defensive posture right now.
GRACE: So you`re saying your argument would be that Anthony Lazzaro, who`s been completely cooperative with police, opened up his car and apartment to them, is lying?
GIUDICE: I`m not saying that at all. I`m saying he`s going into a defensive posture because he knows this lady is lashing out. She`s grasping for straws. Look, I`m not saying this is a good argument for her. She`s got significant problems, and the boyfriend is not helping her. And I believe that`s why she`s being cut off by her lawyers from having any more visits and phone calls, because this case is going down for her.
GRACE: I get it. I get it. And you`re saying Anthony Lazzaro could be the key to her defense. He was the one she was with during that time.
GIUDICE: Sure. Sure.
GRACE: Michael, agree?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely.
GRACE: And? Would you like to add a thought?
MAZZARIELLO: No, I think Ray is right on the money. Look, this guy could be running scared himself. He was there with her. He has something to hide maybe. So the defense attorney is right, cut off all visits, just talk with me, try to get your client out of jail so you can prepare an adequate defense and investigate the boyfriend, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, the two of you are right on one count, and that is all jailhouse visits with family and others have been canceled since formal charges came down last week.
Back to Gloria Allred, victims` rights advocate. What do you make of it, Gloria?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I mean, as far as the telephone calls being canceled, the visits being canceled, obviously, finally, her attorney has gotten some control here because before, it was obvious. All the telephone calls were being recorded. All of them were being broadcast. She was making statements that could be used potentially either as admissions or to impeach her or in some way to entangle her in her own lies. So none of that was really any good for her.
And certainly having her brother, for example, act as an interrogator for the police, that wasn`t good for her. But oh, what a web we weave, Nancy, when first we fashion to deceive.
GRACE: And of course, if you`re taking a look at these photos of mom, Casey Anthony, out at the "hot body" contest, this is after little Caylee goes missing. Anthony Lazzaro, the boyfriend, is not telling us anything we didn`t already know once you`ve seen these photos. She`s not grieving. She`s not looking for the little girl. Nothing. There she is kissing some girl for the camera.
Out to the lines. Stacy in Arkansas. Hi, Stacy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I want to tell you your babies are beautiful. I have a 5-year-old daughter myself.
GRACE: Thank you very much. They`re the joys of my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, mine is, too. I had more of a ponder, you know, something to think about.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last week, when she refused to see her brother, could that be maybe possibly because, you know, brothers and sisters have close relationships more than maybe parent and child, maybe she refused to see him because she might crack and tell the truth.
GRACE: Interesting. Let`s go back out to Patricia Saunders. Stacy in Arkansas is correct. The jailhouse visit was turned away after the brother, and earlier the parents, had come all the way to the jail to see her. I wonder if it was because of the reason Stacy said or because the family is starting to ask her very tough questions.
SAUNDERS: I think it`s both, that because she may be closer with her brother, that he may be the first one in the family to perceive the crack in this house of lies.
GRACE: Well, Patricia, you hit on something. In some of his phone calls, he was asking some very pointed questions about her cell phone calls.
Let`s go to the expert, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, joining us out of Atlantic City. Ben, the cops are apparently trying to ping or locate, position her cell phone calls during the dates -- between the dates of June 16 and June 18, where obviously, they think a death or a kidnapping occurred. How do you retroactively go back in the past and ping or locate cell phone calls?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, that`s real easy. Actually, the information you get on your phone bill is only about one tenth or one fifteenth of the actual information that`s collected on every single phone call that`s made. I mean, if you look at the full records -- it appears to me that the police had a meeting with Cindy Anthony, and they laid out the full, what they call, call detail records in front of her, and that showed exactly what cell site she was on, what side of the cell site she was on, who she was calling, when she was calling.
GRACE: Right.
LEVITAN: And by taking those, you could even find out what direction and velocity she was driving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We get threats every day. We get written threats. We get threats on our home phone. We get threats on our cell phone. We get threats on our e-mail. We just get rid of them. We delete them, and we don`t really -- you can`t dwell on that kind of stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I wish this person, the persons that have her would call up and say, CNN, I have this little girl. I believe she`s the little girl who`s missing from Orlando, Florida. You know what kind of story that would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Anthony family now publicly stating they firmly believe little Caylee has been kidnapped, that they believe they know who the kidnappers are, and quote, the kidnappers are "being watched." By whom?
To Mark Williams with WNDB. Who are the kidnappers, and who is watching the kidnappers?
WILLIAMS: Well, that`s a great question because George Anthony this morning never elaborated who these kidnappers are, who`s watching these folks. Carlos Padilla from the sheriff`s office said, We don`t think Caylee was kidnapped at all. We don`t know what he`s talking about. So I don`t know if George is just pulling this out of thin air or if he`s delusional. Seriously.
GRACE: I don`t believe it`s either one, in his defense. I don`t think he`s pulling it out of thin air. I think he`s getting from his daughter. I do not think George Anthony is delusional. I think that he is believing what his daughter is telling him.
I want to go back out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. You just told us that cell phone calls can sometimes be pinged or located in the direction in which the car is going and the velocity of the car? Did I hear that correctly?
LEVITAN: Yes, you did. Well, if you look at most cell towers, because land is so expensive, they`ll put three cell towers on every site. And if you look up at them, you`ll see they`re in a triangle. So much information is recorded on every call you make, you can tell which direction she was going or where the call was coming from.
GRACE: Hence the term triangulation. How long does it take to get those records, Ben?
LEVITAN: Well, those are recorded immediately, and they`re kept for a period anywhere from 30 to 120 days. And from those records, your phone bill is made. And then the phone companies may toss them away after, oh, one or two months. But apparently, in this case, police have obtained those records. So they have significant technical detail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: Saturday was the second hardest day I think we`ve been through. The first day was realizing our granddaughter wasn`t where she was supposed to be. And that was the hardest thing. Saturday was very hard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: These people that are out there that we feel might have been involved in something -- and again, that`s just speculation on my part -- yes, they`re being watched. They might not know it, but they`re being watched.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Anthony family speaking out today, stating that they are convinced little Caylee has been kidnapped and that the kidnappers are currently being watched, under surveillance, but not by police.
Out to the lines. Jim in Georgia. Hi, Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, how`re you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you know that sniff test, you know, about the air...
GRACE: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in the trunk? OK. Or wherever. How long ago did they, you know, do it? I mean, like...
GRACE: Take the sample?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.
GRACE: To Mark Williams. Didn`t they take that sample when they took the K-9 unit out?
WILLIAMS: Yes, as far as we know, that they did that. And they sent it back and they did the test. Those test results are not back yet, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This is video of Caylee from June 15th, Father`s Day. Her grandfather says the last time he saw her was the following day, when Caylee left the house with her mom. But Casey did not report the little girl missing until a month later.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: 31 days. It`s been 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
C. ANTHONY: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her which is stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now Casey is in jail, charged with child neglect and obstructing a criminal investigation. You see, Casey lied to investigators and won`t tell her parents much since all jail house visits are recorded. Her parents say she`s only trying to protect Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE: People don`t know my daughter. Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother and she would do anything, including sit in the jail cell, to protect her daughter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Right now formal charges being considered against Casey, the mother of little Caylee.
Do they stem from what we`ve learned in the sealed indictments, specifically theft, $700 of stolen checks, according to page 5 of this particular search warrant?
Back out to Mark Williams with WNDB, what do we know about more charges being filed against mom Casey?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, I think you hit it on the head there, Nancy, their -- a friend of hers said that she stole $700 in checks. And of course, there was the unauthorized use of the credit cards from -- that belonged to her parents. So they`re looking at putting those additional charges on her in order to make her open up some more, in order to break her spirit, whatever the case may be.
Again, those could be coming down within the next 24 to 48 hours.
GRACE: To Gloria Allred, Raymund Giudice, Michael Mazzariello -- Gloria, do you really think a theft charge of some checks is going to crack mom Casey?
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think the more charges filed against her, the more difficult it is for her. And I think the longer that she is in custody, the more pressure there is on her to finally say something, to try to tell the truth.
I don`t know whether or not she`s even capable of that. Obviously, if these charges, in fact, are filed, it shows that law enforcement really does believe that she has a serious credibility issue.
GRACE: You know, to all three of the attorneys -- Gloria Allred, Ray Giudice, Michael Mazzariello -- the Anthony family, specifically grandmother Cindy Anthony, is taking on the phone company we learned yesterday.
Raymond Giudice, Michael Mazzariello, Gloria Allred, you all three have probably relied on phone records at some juncture in court.
To you, Michael Mazzariello, what`s the likelihood that the phone company is wrong in deleting cell calls, not charging you with calls?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, HOST OF "CLOSING ARGUMENTS": I think the likelihood is very minimum there. However, it`s the length of time that it was stored that I would be worried about. So long as they got the period of time in question and it wasn`t deleted, I think it would be very difficult. And I`ve done exactly this, fight it. But it`s nearly impossible to win.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, you have -- claimed the phone company was wrong?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, I`ve tried to claim that they didn`t register a phone call and then.
GRACE: And outcome?
MAZZARIELLO: They brought in an expert like we have on this show tonight from Atlantic City and he blew me off -- he blew me away.
GRACE: Raymond Giudice, I think it`s more likely the phone company would charge you for a couple of international phone calls.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Yes, Nancy. This -- they bring in some really serious folks with some really serious technological expertise. And unless you`ve got a whole lot of money to bring counter experts against that which most of us don`t when -- in defending criminal cases.
GRACE: Right. Right.
GIUDICE: . you`re not getting anywhere with it is my point.
GRACE: Put Ray back up there.
GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: It`s not about who`s got the deepest pocket, Ray. The reality is in many, many cases, criminal and civil, attorneys rely on phone records.
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: The reason you don`t fight them is not because you don`t have a lot of money. The reason you don`t fight them is because they`re correct.
GIUDICE: But Nancy.
MAZZARIELLO: You need another expert to fight it.
MAZZARIELLO: That`s right, to at least raise some reasonable doubt to a jury that there`s a possibility that the.
GRACE: You got me -- you got me all wrong. Maybe I didn`t communicate correctly.
GIUDICE: OK. Maybe you didn`t.
GRACE: Because I`m not talking about your strategy in court about how to trick a jury. I`m talking about the truth. I`m talking about this little girl being lost.
MAZZARIELLO: That`s what we`re talking about, Nancy. What if the phone company made a mistake?
GRACE: No, I`m not talking.
MAZZARIELLO: I`m sorry.
GRACE: No, I`m not talking about creating reasonable doubt. I`m talking about were there phone calls from the nanny specifically where she put little Caylee on the phone and mom Casey talked to her. Did that phone call exist? Because according to this search warrant, it didn`t.
GIUDICE: Nancy, unless an expert can come up with on the defense with some systemic problem or some technology problem, I believe Mike is right, this is going to come into evidence against her and it`s going to be a problem. The phone company probably did their job right.
All I`m saying is and as Michael is saying is that the search for truth for a jury quite often is found by opposing experts giving opposing opinions.
GRACE: Thank you, professor.
MAZZARIELLO: Exactly.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Anjali Swienton, president and CEO of SciLawForensics Ltd.
Miss Swienton, thank you for being with us. I want to ask you about the canine unit being called out day two. They have been called out to a heavily wooded area near little Caylee`s grandparents` home. That`s where she was last seen alive, recall, with her mother, the day after Father`s Day.
The -- the dogs were out there. They have found a dead animal carcass. Do cadaver dogs hit on that?
ANJALI SWIENTON, CEO, SCILAWFORENSICS, LTD.: No, Nancy. The cadaver dogs that were used the first time in this case -- and I believe that were employed again this most recent time -- are trained to alert specifically to the scent of human remains.
My understanding was that there were reports to police of some type of suspicious smell, which is why they brought the dogs back out, and it turned out in this instance they didn`t find any human remains and they did, in fact, find a dead animal.
GRACE: You know, speaking of bringing the dogs out -- back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, every move we see the police making is not about a missing child. Have you noticed that?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I have noticed that, although, to be fair, they are doing two parallel investigations. They`re doing a missing persons investigation and a criminal division investigation, which probably could be called a homicide investigation.
But, as I understand it, they`re out every single day with the dogs and searching different tips and trying to find this little girl, if it`s at all possible.
GRACE: To Mark Williams, I keep hearing about the canine units, about air tests, SNP tests being sent to a Tennessee lab called the body farm. I`m not hearing about the search by police for a missing little girl. It sounds like a homicide investigation to me.
WILLIAMS: Well, and I think you`re right on that, Nancy. Now, one of the things that we`re still waiting for is the DNA test to come back and, of course, the SNP test to come back. But if the SNP test or the DNA come back negative they have a missing persons test. If they come back positive it`s a homicide case.
GRACE: You`re absolutely correct, Mark Williams.
I want to go back to Anjali Swienton with SciLawForensics Ltd.
Very quickly, Anjali. The theory that the child may have drowned in the family above-ground pool, could you tell me how soon after death a human body will smell as a result of decomposition?
SWIENTON: It`s going to depend, Nancy, on a lot of different conditions. Human biological tissue breaks down at a particular rate, but it`s going to be affected by how hot it was. If the -- if she was -- if she did, in fact, drown and it was the middle of the day in a hot Florida outside environment, and she was left for some time, that`s going to speed up the normal process.
So it could be a matter of hours. It could be up to 24 hours. If she was placed inside the closed environment.
GRACE: Right.
SWIENTON: . of the trunk, in the heat and it`s humid, again, in Florida, you know, again, that speeds up the normal metabolic process.
GRACE: Joining me right now is the psychic team leader Gale St. John with the Body Hunter out searching for little Caylee.
Miss St. John, thank you for beeping with us. What did the psychics do today?
GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC, TEAM LEADER, THE BODY HUNTER: We were out -- excuse me. We were out in several locations today. What I can say is we were very close to where the grandparents` home was. And we had the dogs in the location and the body language changed. At that point, it began to get dark and we left the area and we will be going back.
GRACE: What do you mean the body language changed?
ST. JOHN: Dogs` body language changes when you`re out there with your cadaver dog to be interested and you can see signs when you know your dog very well and that they`re definitely, you know, smelling something.
GRACE: Are you a psychic or do you handle cadaver dogs?
ST. JOHN: Both.
GRACE: OK. We`re going to be right back taking your calls. With us, the psychic team leader Gale St. John. A lot of breaking developments today in the search for little Caylee.
But as we go to break, on a happy note, happy 98th birthday to a Gaffney, South Carolina friend of the show, Janelle Moss.
Since her 80th birthday, she`s held down three jobs, taking care of the elderly, many younger than her. She`s an expert seamstress and extremely popular as a hostess at the Sagebrook Steakhouse. She`s the oldest employee in the entire chain nationwide. They love her and so do we.
Happy birthday, Miss Janelle.
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CINDY: Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother and she would do anything, including sit in the jail cell to protect her daughter so.
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L. ANTHONY: Hey.
C. ANTHONY: Hey, can you give me Tony`s number?
L. ANTHONY: I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going do you at this point.
C. ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.
L. ANTHONY: OK.
C. ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother and it`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste.
Oh by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else like don`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste your time coming up here.
CINDY: Get off your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and look for my granddaughter. I don`t care if this is on the news or what. She`s out there.
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GRACE: Take a listen to all of these phone calls. You never hear mom Casey Anthony talking about the search for her daughter. She`s leaving all of that to her parents Cindy and George Anthony. And they are desperate to find this little girl.
See the tip line there at the bottom of the screen, 800-423-TIPS. The search for Caylee in high gear.
We`re taking your calls. To Tammy in Washington, hi, Tammy.
TAMMY, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show. I watch you.
GRACE: Thank you, and thank you for calling in.
TAMMY: Yes. I watch you every night. And your babies are beautiful. I have a 13-month-old and I really enjoy watching her looking at your pictures when you you`re your babies.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?
TAMMY: Yes. Actually I just want to say that either I think that the baby drowned in the pool or it`s a drug deal gone bad, because Casey`s behavior when she was first incarcerated, she was obviously on something because of her actions and her language the first few days while she was incarcerated.
She acted like she was coming off of something. Plus, stealing gas for her car from her family and who knows what else she was stealing from her family that hasn`t come out into the media. And I think the family knows exactly what`s going on. I think that they know that she has an addiction and they`re just stuttering and stammering all over themselves.
GRACE: Interesting. Interesting. A lot of people have speculated that there was some type of a drug problem. We don`t have any indication of that. She doesn`t have a prior criminal history of that.
To Mark Williams, it is interesting that a lot of people have speculated about a possible drug issue. But, number one, where would she get the money? She`d have to steal gas from her family to run the car, which, I might add, Mark Williams and Nikki Pierce -- first to you, Mark -- should narrow down how far away she could get with little Caylee if she is, in fact, responsible.
Just take a protractor and run it around the home. How far would a can of gas take you that she stole out of the tool shed?
WILLIAMS: A can of gas in this day and age, Nancy, would probably take you to her -- really within only a couple of miles of East Orange County of her home. And any speculation about the baby being taken to a drug dealer in exchange for something, I don`t know.
If an individual was a drug dealer, what would they want to do with a 3- year-old girl? Because that would just weigh them down in anything that they do.
GRACE: And to Gloria Allred, victims rights advocate -- Gloria, have you noticed that whenever a mom is under suspicion of harm to a child, we all - - me included -- we all naturally think up excuses, such as she was on drugs, a drug deal gone bad, there was an accident in the pool.
Nobody wants to think -- and this is a benefit to the defense -- that a mom could actually intentionally hurt her child.
ALLRED: You`re right, Nancy, and because you know the bond that a mother has with a child and wouldn`t want to intentionally, in most cases, hurt her child. But then again, we also know of the Susan Smiths of this world and we know that it does happen. And sometimes, you know, sometimes there`s an accident. Sometimes there`s a cover-up.
By the way, some of the similarities in this case remind me very much of the Scott Peterson case. Anne Bird, Scott Peterson`s sister, speculated that Scott drowned Lacy in the pool. And also they just -- the police discovered quite a bit about Scott Peterson from the cell phone records, from the pings in the cell phone towers. So this -- there are very interesting similarities here.
GRACE: To Ray Giudice, what`s your defense? Give me your best shot.
GIUDICE: All right, right now, Nancy, the state has no crime weapon, no motive except she wants to be a party girl, and that`s why she killed her 2-year-old, no body and no crime scene, and we have no idea where this DNA is at, and if it`s an effective hit.
Right now, if I`m the defense, I want a preliminary hearing or I`m ready to pick 12 jurors tomorrow morning. That could change very rapidly, but you asked me that question tonight.
GRACE: To Michael Mazzariello, why do you believe the defense chose not to demand a preliminary hearing and make the state lay the cards on the table?
MAZZARIELLO: Based on its communications with his client, Nancy, and the evidence that the police had, it was probably a strategy he is going to go for right now if they don`t charge her soon with the theft charges. Just to be careful here would be the reason I would think of.
GRACE: To Ben Levitan joining us -- telecommunications expert out of Atlantic City.
So, Mr. Levitan, you were telling me that within a couple of days, the phone company upon request, that is, after the request is made a couple of days, can tell us basically where the cell phone calls were made. And that is outgoing and incoming to the phone where she was, where she received phone calls, the velocity sometimes of the vehicle in which she`s traveling, the direction, the time, the duration of the call.
They`ve known that all along? Ben, is that what you`re telling me?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: That`s right, Nancy. And even more than that, every time you turn on your phone, you have to register. And in a densely populated area like Orlando, you are going to get a lot of hits as to where that phone was. And when you go through a tunnel, your phone may go out and come back on.
But I`d be more interested, not in the 31 days where she was.
GRACE: Right.
LEVITAN: . after the 911 call, I want to know who she was talking to in the 31 days before that because that will tell you exactly all the events and where she was and, you know, if it was a drug deal, you know, where she was. Was she in an area heavily populated drug traffic?
GRACE: Back to Gale St. John, the psychic leading a team of psychics searching for Caylee, you stated that there had been visions of sorts of wooded areas and the earth. Reports are you have also stated that you believe Caylee is dead. Is that true?
ST. JOHN: We have not made any such comment at all so I`m not sure where that`s coming from.
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GRACE: Straight back out to psychic team leader Gale St. John, joining us today from Orlando, Florida.
Gale, so are you working in conjunction with the police?
ST. JOHN: No, we have had no contact with the police as of yet.
GRACE: How about with the family?
ST. JOHN: No. We`ve had no contact with them. We don`t intentionally invade anyone`s privacy.
GRACE: How many hours are you guys logging a day out looking for little Caylee?
ST. JOHN: Well, anywhere it`s been from seven hours to 16 hours.
GRACE: And where is your family?
ST. JOHN: My family`s in to Toledo, Ohio.
GRACE: So you`ve come all the way to Orlando to search for little Caylee?
ST. JOHN: Yes.
GRACE: Miss St. John, you know, a lot of people believe you`re wasting your time. Why do you keep doing this? Have you ever had success before?
ST. JOHN: Yes. A lot of the times. It`s a passion. This is something -- been an advocate for missing persons for 30 years.
GRACE: Do you personally believe that you have had visions of where Caylee is?
ST. JOHN: Yes, I do.
GRACE: And could you describe that to me?
ST. JOHN: Well, we have seen a wooded area. This is pretty much agreed upon about the -- you know with the entire team. And there`s other things that we`ve seen in the area and we`ve been looking for all those things that (INAUDIBLE) with it.
GRACE: Other things such as what?
ST. JOHN: One was a building in the area, particular looking building. We`ve been looking for that. We have a location that looks very similar to what all of us have seen. And like I said, we did work the dogs and we have interest.
GRACE: With us tonight, psychic leader Gale St. John.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class George Delgado, 21, Palmdale, California, killed, Iraq. Outgoing, adventurous, a zest for life. Loved football, making others laugh. Dreamed of being a teacher or a cop. And adopting an orphan.
Leaves behind parents Maria and Elias, sister Cynthia, brother Marcos.
George Delgado, American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from friend of the show, Michael Mazzariello`s cousin, all the way from Roma, Italy, Andrea(ph).
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friends.
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