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Campbell Brown

Wal-Mart Politics; Interview With Pastor Rick Warren; Presidential and Presidential Candidates' Vacation Spots; McCain's Campaign Tactics; Chinese Gymnasts Too Young?

Aired August 14, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody.
Remember how Barack Obama's campaign plane made an unscheduled landing just last month? Well, at the time, the FAA said it was no big deal. Tonight, we have all been listening to the cockpit tapes of the incident. They were first obtained by ABC News. And, now, we know the plane does land safely. To say the least, these tapes are chilling. We are going to have more from the tape and let you hear it and more on this developing story coming up in just a moment.

We are also digging into complaints that Wal-Mart, America's biggest private employer, is encouraging its workers not to vote for Democrats in November. One worker was quoted as saying -- quote -- "I'm not a stupid person. They were telling me how to vote."

Should a company take workers aside and suggest to them why one candidate is better than the other?

Plus, a whisper campaign against Barack Obama with the most outrageous rumor yet. It's all coming from an attack ad from the McCain camp. And I have got to say, in my years of covering campaigns, I don't quite remember anything like this. We're going to tell why you and explain it all coming up, no bias, no bull, tonight in the ELECTION CENTER.

But we do begin tonight with one of the most cherished rights every American enjoys, the right to vote in secret without interference. And we're hearing that one of America's most powerful and most popular retailers, Wal-Mart, is urging its employees how to vote. They call it educating their employees. The company is pushing them to vote Republican in the presidential election.

A lot of people are going to be talking about this story, so here in the ELECTION CENTER, we will serve it up for you, no bias and no bull.

We put Randi Kaye on the story. She's joining us from Orlando, Florida, tonight with all the details -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Campbell.

This really all comes down to union membership. As you know, Wal-Mart has never hidden its dislike for unions. In fact, back in 2005, there was a documentary about Wal-Mart, and one of the key themes was the fact that Wal-Mart does not have any unions or any union members.

But, today, those who have been very frustrated by this for years finally took some action.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE (voice-over): The featured special at retail giant Wal-Mart these days is not for its customers, but, instead, for its employees. And to some of the company's 1.5 million workers, the special message sounds like: Vote Republican. Stop Obama.

The theory goes, if Wal-Mart can help keep Obama out of the White House, that could also keep labor unions out of Wal-Mart. After all, Obama has supported a pro-labor measure called the Employee Free Choice Act, and said he would sign it if elected.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that we should pass the Employee Free Choice Act. That will make it easier for unions to organize, make it harder for companies to block unionization.

KAYE: And that could drive up Wal-Mart's costs. Wal-Mart employees, like the one sent us this e-mail, say they were summoned to meetings in recent weeks. The e-mailer, a former department manager from Missouri, asked not to be identified, for fear of retaliation.

He told us he attended a meeting led by his human resources director. "He verbally and with a PowerPoint presentation, informed us that a Democratic government would be bad for Wal-Mart. We were basically told that we should vote Republican, because they were against this bill, and it would be better for Wal-Mart. Several people were offended because we felt like we were being told how to vote."

The company says the meetings were only to educate managers and hourly supervisors about the Employee Free Choice Act and to explain why Wal-Mart is opposed to it. Some pro-labor groups say, yes, the company is violating election law, and are demanding the Federal Electoral Commission investigate.

Today, the groups filed a federal complaint against Wal-Mart.

Josh Goldstein with American Rights at Work says he's heard complaints from dozens of Wal-Mart employees.

JOSH GOLDSTEIN, AMERICAN RIGHTS AT WORK: Barack Obama's name was mentioned in the meeting, saying that he was a co-sponsor of this legislation, if he becomes president, that the Employee Free Choice Act would pass.

KAYE: Goldstein says the act would help workers bargain for higher wages and better working conditions.

CNN obtained this memo from Wal-Mart's chief operating officer to the management team. It reads: "If anyone representing our company gave the impression we were telling associates how to vote, they were wrong and acting without approval. No matter what your personal political preferences might be, as a company, we will not take sides."

(on camera): Did Wal-Mart break the law? Federal election rules do allow companies to advocate for a candidate, but only to stockholders, salaried managers, and executives, not to hourly employees.

(voice-over): This law professor says Wal-Mart walked right up to the line, but didn't cross it. Discussing consequences of an election, he says, is not illegal.

NATHANIEL PERSILY, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: They have to have crossed an objective threshold into expressly advocating for the election or defeat of a candidate. If they're just talking about legislation, if they're talking about the pros and cons of different candidates' positions, then there's nothing wrong with that.

KAYE: Wal-Mart says, "We believe that, if the FEC looks into this, they will find what we have known all along, that we did nothing wrong."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: Now, the company says that its record of political donations shows that it can work with leaders from both political parties. And we checked with the Center For Responsive Politics, which tracks political donations, Campbell, and we found that, this year, Wal-Mart donated more than $1 million combined to both the Republicans and the Democrats.

And here's how it breaks down, Republicans 56 percent, Democrats 44 percent. This is very different from years past, when Republicans got most of the cash. Just to give you an idea of the difference, in 2004, Republicans got 80 percent, Democrats 20 percent. And, back in 1996, Republicans got 98 percent, Democrats just 2 percent.

BROWN: Interesting change there.

All right, Randi Kaye for us tonight -- Randi, thanks.

Another developing story that we're tracking tonight, one that goes to everybody's fear of flying, there are new details out tonight about the incident when Barack Obama's campaign jet was forced down last month. ABC News obtained the cockpit tapes, and they're pretty chilling, especially since, when Obama's jet made that unscheduled landing in Saint Louis a few weeks ago, everyone was told it was not an emergency landing, just a deviation.

Well, listen to this. Remember, everyone was told never an emergency here.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

PILOT: Saint Louis approach, Midex 8663. At this time, we would like to declare this is an emergency and also have CFR standing by in Saint Louis.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: So much for the story that it wasn't an emergency. We are going to have more on that tape coming up in just a little bit.

And, then, later, will Pastor Rick Warren ask Senators McCain and Obama some tough questions this weekend or is he just going with softballs? We will ask him. He's in the ELECTION CENTER -- when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Democratic Convention begins in 11 days. And, today, one of the biggest behind-the-scenes battles was settled, sort of, with the news that Hillary Clinton's name will be placed in nomination.

Now, it's said to be a purely symbolic move, all about catharsis for her supporters and bringing the party together. But, you know, there's more to it than that.

And Candy Crowley is live for us in Honolulu with the very latest details.

And, Candy, just before we get into the politics of this, explain to us what it means to put her name in nomination, and, you know, whether there's any possibility here for a Clinton coup at this convention.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, bottom line, putting her name in nomination means that her delegates, if they so choose, can vote for her.

You know, we always watch those people by the signs that say Alaska or Alabama or whatever they say, you know, Mr. Chairman, the proud state of such and so casts this many votes for Barack Obama and this many votes for Hillary Clinton. So, without her name in nomination, then a lot of those delegates obviously go to Barack Obama.

With her name in nomination, then those people can obviously be out there and voting for her. Again, we have to say, even though they're pledged delegates, they don't have to vote for Hillary Clinton. But, bottom line, what the Clinton campaign wanted, what in the end the Obama campaign felt maybe will help with unity is to put her name in nomination and allow some of those delegates, as many as want to, vote for her.

Now, a coup, I don't think so, because a coup would only spark a countercoup. I mean, at this point, the Democratic Party has moved on from June, by and large, and believe that Barack Obama is the nominee. If there was some sort of coup -- first of all, the Clinton campaign or what's left of the Clinton campaign says that is not at all their intention here. And, second of all, most of the delegates on that floor would not go for it.

BROWN: Candy, I just want to remind people, too, the reason you're in Honolulu obviously is because Barack Obama is there on vacation.

But give us your sense ultimately of what this means. Does the fact that they have come to an agreement on how to proceed mean that there really is peace now between Clinton and the Obama wings of the Democratic Party?

CROWLEY: Not all of them.

And, certainly, look, there are dead-enders. There are people that are going to be in the street, saying she should have won the nomination. She did if you count Michigan. She did if you count Florida. All of that that you heard until the day that she dropped out of the race, you are still hearing. There are obviously lingering resentments. I think we saw that with former President Clinton in his response to, is Barack Obama ready to be president? He said, well, I don't think anybody's ready to be president, that sort of thing.

So, there are lingering hard feelings. This should help. At least, they believe it will.

BROWN: Candy Crowley for us tonight from Hawaii -- Candy, thanks.

So, this is shaping up to be a pretty dramatic convention. Should we expect some more surprises?

Here to talk about that is David Brody, CNN contributor and senior national correspondent for the Christian Broadcasting Network, Tony Blankley, co-host of the nationally syndicated public radio program "Left, Right and Center" and former press secretary to Newt Gingrich, also, and CNN political analyst and talk radio host Roland Martin as well.

So, Roland, what do you think? Is the Clinton-Obama drama over? Is everybody going to play nice now?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, think, you know, obviously, the candidates will play nice.

And, look, I was e-mailing one of these sort of offshoot groups earlier, one of the leaders, and she is saying, I'm still fighting for Senator Hillary Clinton because I don't think Obama can beat McCain. And I said, you know what? You're like the Japanese soldier who 29 years later was found still thinking the war was still going on.

I'm like, the primary's over. And, so, a lot of Clinton supporters haven't accepted that. But the candidate is trying to sat that. But you know what, Campbell? If you listen to Jesse Jackson's speech, Reverend Jackson's speech in 1988, he said something that I think is very important, because -- I'm paraphrasing here -- he said, when my name goes in nomination, your name goes in nomination.

And so that's why it is important for Senator Clinton's supporters to see that her name go in nomination to be able to set history as being the first woman to go this far in this process. BROWN: Tony, do you anticipate any surprises here, any chance Clinton or her supporters -- not Clinton most likely, but her supporters might go off the reservation and cause a stir in Denver?

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": No, no, look, this isn't about a coup or anything. To me, this is about managing the message of a convention.

The winner, Obama, has every right to manage every message that comes out of his convention. I have worked on that on the Republican side. You have a message matrix. Nobody gets a word into the Teleprompter unless it's approved by the winning candidate's message manager.

They have allowed Hillary to get bits and pieces of the message that's going to be delivered. I think it's a mistake on Obama's part at a technical level.

BROWN: David...

DAVID BRODY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

BROWN: ... since this Clinton-Obama thing has been going on, we haven't really had a chance yet to see what sort of the post-primary Hillary Clinton is going to look like. She hasn't carved out a space for herself yet.

What do you think she does, now that this is wrapping up, essentially, her role in it, anyway?

BRODY: Well, I mean, I think that's pretty much undetermined.

But I can tell you this, Campbell, is that I think the role of her supporters is going to be what we're going to watch in Denver, because one thing -- and Tony's right, Campbell -- what they cannot control is what those signs are going to say in Denver, those -- are they going to be anti-Obama signs? Let's think about this for a second.

Hillary's going to speak at the convention. There's going to be parades. There's going to be rallies. There's going to be buttons for Hillary, "Viva La Hillary." We're going to have Hillary-cam. It's all about the message.

And Obama, by agreeing to this -- and he had no choice -- he needed to do this, obviously -- clearly, the visuals are not going to be good in Denver that week, at least part of that week. And that's a problem.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Actually, David, I got to correct you there. They can control what signs go on the floor.

Look, even...

(CROSSTALK)

BRODY: But they can't control what goes in the street.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: You're right. You're right.

BROWN: Roland, David and Tony both have a point, is that, ultimately, this may well undercut his message.

MARTIN: Well, look, if you look also how they have sort of positioned this whole thing, where you have Michelle Obama on -- opening up in terms of -- then you have the V.P. nominee on Wednesday. Then you're going to have Obama on Thursday.

The bottom line is this here. When Obama stands in that stadium and 75,000 people are there, that's going to overshadow anything that happens, that Hillary Clinton says or Bill Clinton says.

BROWN: We have got three nights of news coverage before that happens, Roland.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Go ahead, Tony.

BLANKLEY: Yes, look, I mean, there's no doubt Obama's going to give a fabulous speech Thursday night and it's going to be a wonderful event for him.

But he wants to have as wonderful an event from Monday through Thursday as he can have. And I think he should have just stiffed the Clintons. They lost.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: And they don't have any right to -- at conventions, the losers don't dictate the terms.

(CROSSTALK)

BLANKLEY: She has nowhere to go, because she can't be undermining him publicly. So, she's got to...

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: But he wants to win.

BROWN: All right, guys, hang with me.

I want to go back to one of tonight's developing stories right now, the scary new information about the problem that forced Barack Obama's campaign jet to make an emergency landing a few weeks ago. It may have been a closer call than any of us thought or any of us were told. Obama's jet landed in Saint Louis after the emergency slide in the tail cone deployed during flight. A CNN producer who was on the plane said at the time that the pilot emphasized it was not an emergency landing, just a deviation.

But listen to this. ABC News tonight obtained the control tower tapes. And you are going to hear clearly the pilot declaring an in- flight emergency. That's a pretty big deal. And nobody know this until -- nobody knew that this had happened until today. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

PILOT: We have a controllability issue with this aircraft. We have limited pitch authority at flight levels.

Saint Louis approach, Midex 8663. At this time, we would like to declare this is an emergency and also have CFR standing by in Saint Louis.

TOWER: Midex 8663. All right. I will show that. And would you -- do you have a preference on runways? Would you like runway 3-0 right or runway 3-0 left?

PILOT: OK. We would like 3-0 left. And just for informational purposes, we have Senator Obama on board the aircraft and his campaign.

TOWER: Midex 8663, roger that.

Midex 8663, and can you give me the souls on board and the fuel that you have remaining in pounds?

PILOT: Fifty-one souls on board, fuel in pounds, 21,000 pounds.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: Fire trucks and emergency vehicles were waiting at the runway when the plane landed. Everyone downplayed the danger, though.

Tonight, we know there was a lot more concern than anybody was told. ABC has reported an FAA spokesman acknowledged today that its statements of no emergency at the time were wrong and blamed erroneous reports from FAA air traffic managers.

Coming up tonight, one of the most influential pastors in the country speaks out on the election. Rick Warren of Saddleback Church on Obama and on McCain.

Also ahead, what is it about this McCain attack ad that makes some people believe -- yes, seriously -- that Barack Obama is the Antichrist? We're going to break this down for you.

And does anybody believe those Chinese gymnasts, these girls, are over 16 years old? We're going to look into charges of Chinese age- fixing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On Saturday night, John McCain and Barack Obama will share the stage at a forum in one of the country's largest mega- churches. I will be right here at 8:00 Eastern time to bring you the whole thing live from start to finish.

The moderator of the back-to-back question-and-answer sessions with the candidates, influential evangelical Pastor Rick Warren. He joined me a little bit ago from his Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, right near Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Pastor Warren, you were on this program just a few weeks ago. And at the time, you told me that you wanted this to be a different kind of conversation with these two candidates on Saturday. Same day as the forum, there's going to be this huge rally in Washington.

Thousands of conservative Christians and some pretty big names are going to be there, and some of them have voiced concern that you're not going to ask the candidates about the issues they care about, about abortion, about same-sex marriage.

Will you? Is that on the table?

(CROSSTALK)

PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE": Yes, it's on the table, Campbell.

And, you know, there are two groups that are really worried about me right now. One is the seculars, who think I'm going to establish a religious test for the presidency, which I'm totally opposed to. And then there are some believers who are worried that I'm going to wimp out on stem cell research, using fetuses, and abortion, which means both of them don't know me.

What I'm trying to do is stake out a middle ground. No question will be off the table. I'm going to ask very tough questions. But I'm going to ask them in a civil way.

BROWN: You say that you're friends with both of these candidates. But, lately, your friends have been attacking each other, going back and forth, tit for tat over who's a bigger celebrity.

You want to talk to them about issues of character, as you said, sort of big-picture, big-think issues. But let me ask you, are you a little disappointed about the tone the campaign is taking right now?

WARREN: I am disappointed.

It's to be expected. The closer it gets, the stakes are so high, and a lot of it -- you know, even among the staff on both campaigns, there's a lot of intramural, you know, ego and bruising and things like that. What I'm trying to do with this event is, I'm trying to stake out a common ground for the common good. I believe that there are millions of voters in America who feel disenfranchised by both the left and right. But a lot of people, they look at these candidates, and they will say, you know, I really like this about Barack Obama, but I don't like this, and I really like this about John McCain, but I don't like this.

I actually think that's healthy.

BROWN: John McCain, as we have talked about before, I think, doesn't really talk about his faith a lot. He's been a little reluctant to do so.

WARREN: Yes.

BROWN: This Saturday, though, he does with you have this huge platform to talk to voters about his relationship with God. What do you think he should tell people that he hasn't said before?

WARREN: Yes.

Well, I wouldn't dare to presume to tell what either of these guys should say. But I will be asking them about their faith. And it's one of the questions. I think it's perfectly appropriate. As I have talked to you before, I think everybody's got a world view. And it's OK for us to know what their world views are.

I don't think you make the decision for who you're voting for simply on their faith. When I go to a doctor, I don't ask him if he's a Christian. I ask him if he's a good surgeon. But I do believe it's one of the factors that people deserve to know about.

BROWN: As I said before, you know Barack Obama. You know he is a Christian. And, yet, you also know, as we all do, that these false rumors that he is a Muslim persist, his opponents, his critics using them against him.

WARREN: Yes.

BROWN: Have people, has anyone in your church come to you and asked you about that? Do you think it's still out there as an issue for him?

WARREN: Well, I haven't heard it from my own church. But I certainly have read about it in the press.

He's not a Muslim. And both of these men, you know, to my understanding, are Christians. They're not Evangelicals. That's an important point. I don't think either of them are necessarily Evangelicals, but they do have a faith in Christ.

To me, we have just got to let them speak for themselves. And my goal is to get out of the way and let them tell what they believe, not just about their faith, but also what they believe about their vision, what they believe about their values, their virtues, why we think we should trust them with the most important position -- you know, the most important position in the world.

BROWN: Pastor Rick Warren, always good to see you. Thanks so much.

WARREN: Good to see you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Once again, I'm going to bring you the two-hour McCain- Obama presidential forum live right here on CNN Saturday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time. The best political team on television will provide complete analysis on CNN and CNN.com.

Now, there have been some wild charges tossed around in this campaign, but this one -- this one really got my attention. And as outlandish as it sounds, some people actually claim, yes, that Barack Obama is the Antichrist? See where the whole -- see why, rather, that they think they are serious. That's coming up next.

And, then, later, the Olympic controversy that is only growing now. Did the Chinese women's gymnastics team pull a fast one? Are the girls on team younger than the rules allow? Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta will give us a reality check when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now we turn to one of the most interesting campaign ads I've ever seen. When it comes to negative campaigning, it's pretty hard to beat comparing a candidate to the anti-Christ. And some people say that is exactly what an ad from the McCain camp does to Barack Obama.

David Mattingly has been digging into this.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, you never actually hear the word anti-Christ in this ad. But, critics say it just depends on how you listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (voice-over): When you listen to this John McCain ad, it might sound like Barack Obama has a Messiah complex.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... you will experience an epiphany and you will say to yourself, I have to vote for Barack.

MATTINGLY: The McCain campaign says it's all in good fun.

But not everyone's laughing. Some Democrats say the ad, which appears only on the internet, is infused with hidden messages to Evangelical Christians. Messages that Barack Obama isn't the Messiah at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It reinforces things that they've been hearing around the internet that maybe Barack Obama is in fact the anti-Christ.

MATTINGLY: The ad (AUDIO GAP) ... 2 million times on YouTube. A google search for Obama and anti-Christ returns an incredible 900,000 hits. One web site is completely dedicated to the question: Is Obama the anti-Christ. 73 percent in the site's online polls say, either yes or maybe. Could the McCain ad be saying the same thing?

Critics accuse the McCain campaign of trying to tap into biblical prophecy to stir Evangelical voters, a group McCain has had difficulty reaching.

ERIC SAPP, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They're going back to the classic Republican playbook of playing to these people's fears, trying to you know, send a message to these folks that you really need to be careful. You really need to worry about this guy. He literally could be a cosmic anti-Christ figure. And for a lot of people that may sound strange to believe but there is a significant part of the American community that will take this stuff very seriously.

MATTINGLY: Democratic faith issues consultant Eric Sapp argues the McCain ad borrows ideas and visual imagery from the blockbuster "Left Behind" series. The books weave a tale of a modern day anti- Christ, a young political leader who rises to power with a message of peace and unity and leads a world religion that proclaims we are God. That sounds a lot like this Obama clip used in the ad.

(on camera): The McCain campaign says it's just having some fun with what it calls Obama's tendency to get carried away with audacious statements. But since the release of the ad, Obama anti-Christ internet traffic is up.

Even the authors of the "Left Behind" books felt they had to speak out because they're seeing that question more and more often. Do they think Obama is the anti-Christ? And each time, they say the answer is no way.

JERRY JENKINS, CO-AUTHOR "LEFT BEHIND": The anti-Christ will not be somebody who is suspected of being the anti-Christ by anybody. If half the country thinks that one of the candidates is the anti-Christ, he's not the anti-Christ.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And in talking to the McCain campaign, a spokesman there got in one more zinger about this. He said he suggested playing the ad backwards to listen for some kind of hidden message. I ruined a lot of good Led Zeppelin albums that way.

BROWN: All right. David Mattingly for us tonight.

David, thanks.

We're going to have a lot more on the story ahead. What was the McCain campaign really getting at here and how is it all playing among Christian conservatives? We've got some of the smartest folks in politics to talk about that with us when we come back. This is the ELECTION CENTER.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Right before the break, we told you about a curious interpretation of this John McCain campaign ad right here. Some Democrats say the campaign is sending a coded message to Evangelical Christians that Barack Obama is the anti-Christ. Well, team McCain denies it.

We want to bring back our political panel now. David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network, Tony Blankley co-host of "Left, Right and Center" and CNN contributor Roland Martin, who's also author of "Listening to the Spirit Within: Fifty Perspectives on Faith."

Roland, you heard David's report. I mean, clearly a lot of religious references used in that ad.

But, do you really think the McCain Campaign is intentionally trying to tug at the fears of Evangelical Christians.

MARTIN: Oh,, absolutely. No doubt. No, no, Campbell.

You know what? This is one of those stories where look, people can look at a commercial 20, 30, 40, 50 different ways. And so I'm not surprised the Democrats are hitting back this way. But there is no doubt they are trying to raise Obama to sort of have this -- to be this Messianic figure and use it against him for their supporters. But, in terms of this whole notion of the anti-Christ, I'm not buying that one.

BROWN: Tony, what do you think?

BLANKLEY: Well, this proves it's -- August is still silly season.

Look, ads are intended to be quick and make their point clearly. They're not meant to be like Swedish films where you have to study to find metaphors. And this is a film -- this commercial is obviously what is what. It was a take off on all Obama's own words. We've been giggling. The secular press has been giggling about for months. So, I think this is a lot of hooey.

BROWN: Well David, you heard in David Mattingly's report though, the number of hits it's getting in google searches when you combine the two, Barack Obama and anti-Christ. And you've got a large Evangelical audience. Give us a reality check.

Do you have viewers who are talking about this ad? Do they see anything there?

BRODY: It's a small minority, Campbell. I mean, we need to give Evangelicals a little bit more credit. I mean, the dinner table conversations are not about the anti-Christ. I mean, they're about $4 gas and what other Americans are concerned about, as well. So no. I mean, look. I agree with Roland to a certain extent. That what this is about is the celebrity of Barack Obama. I mean, you can put the anti-Christ and Paris Hilton in the same ads, basically. Because exactly what's happening.

MARTIN: You sure she's not the anti-Christ?

BRODY: You've got the celebrity situation with Barack Obama and you've got the Messianic situation that they have going on. You put it all together and it says higher plane.

BROWN: A fair point there, David. I have to say.

Tony, I want to jump ahead with you to what I was -- to speaking about a few moments ago with Pastor Rick Warren to the forum that he's hosting this weekend. He and I talked about how John McCain has a great opportunity to talk about his faith at this forum, to be more open.

What would your advice be to him, what do you think he needs to do?

BLANKLEY: I don't know. I've got to tell you, I feel a little uncomfortable. The Constitution says there's no religious test. Nor, this is not a government action. So it's not a religious test.

Asking the two candidates for president to unburden themselves on their faith strikes me as getting a little close to the edge. But, I think they ought to be honest. That's the best thing to do.

MARTIN: Oh Tony, you know that there are many Evangelicals who are very uncomfortable with Senator John McCain because he has not been forth right.

BLANKLEY: That's right.

MARTIN: The other problem is, he's following President George W. Bush who wore faith on his sleeve. John McCain I think has more -- I mean, he has more to do at this forum, Campbell, than Senator Obama. He has to win those people who feel as if he is not saying enough.

BRODY: I second that. I second that.

BROWN: All right, guys. We've got to end it there, I'm out of time.

But, David, Tony, Roland, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up, the story that everybody's been talking about today. Are these Chinese gymnasts 16 years-old, as the Chinese government says they are? Or, did china cheat to win a gold medal?

And then later, when you're in politics, a vacation, it's not just a vacation. The stage craft of vacations when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: They are so agile, so flexible, so talented and they look so young. Are they really old enough to compete in the Olympics? Well, we've been talking about it in the news room since first thing this morning.

China's gold medal winning women's gymnastics team. Olympic eligibility rules say gymnasts have to be 16 during the games. But, get this: The average Chinese team member is 4'9 and weighs 77 pounds. It's pretty tiny. The silver medal winning American gymnasts are on average three inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. One American coach told the "New York Times" she thought one of the Chinese gymnasts just lost a baby tooth. So, what's the deal here? Did China break the rules?

We want to talk about it now with Amanda Borden, an Olympic gymnast who won a gold medal with the U.S. team back in 1996; from Beijing, CNN international anchor Anjali Rao, who's covering the Olympics for us; and Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's senior medical correspondent, as well.

Anjali, let me start with you. I know you're covering the controversy from Beijing and it's not dying down at all, is it?

ANJALI RAO, ANCHOR, CNN INTERNATIONAL: Not in the slightest, Campbell. If anything, it's actually probably been ramping up since China's gold medal win on Wednesday.

And a lot of the talk really centers around the youngest of the gymnasts, He Kexin. Today's news is that from the Associated Press which quotes, Chinoise News Agency, at the end of last year referring to He Kexin as being 13 years old. That would therefore make her ineligible to compete in this Olympics.

Now, the Associated Press found that article on Thursday morning, so that's yesterday for us. They said that by the time the afternoon rolled around, you could still get onto the web site but the page had mysteriously disappeared. Now of course, the win doesn't sit well with the Americans at all. But here in China, nobody in the media is talking about anything other than the fact that their girl got gold.

BROWN: Sanjay, I do want to do a side-by-side comparison. I've got a picture here of American gymnast, this is Alicia Sacramone. And here is Chinese gymnast, He Kexin, pretty representative of their teammates. Clearly very different body types.

How old does this Chinese girl look to you? Does she look 16?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No. I mean, you know it's funny. I mean, it was the first thing that my wife and I were watching the Olympics together. It was the first we sort of commented on, was how young that they look.

And you know, it's more than that. You know, when you look inside their bodies, someone who's younger than 16, their bones are not yet fully ossified, hardened. So, they can -- they're more flexible than someone who's going to be older. So, there's some advantages certainly, to being younger, as well.

BROWN: Amanda, you were a world class gymnast.

Do you think they're younger than 16 and does Sanjay have a point, that it would make a difference here, that they would actually be better athletes?

AMANDA BORDEN, 1995 U.S. WOMEN'S GYMNASTICS TEAM: Well, they definitely look younger than 16. There's no question about that. I think having been the athlete that was 16 and at 16 years old, I was 4'8, 77 pounds. So, I can relate to being small. Typically the athletes in our sport are build really tiny is, especially the Chinese. But, when you look at those faces, they do look awfully young.

BROWN: Amanda, do you think there is a possibility that this might be a little bit of sour grapes if the U.S. team are all upset because they didn't get gold?

BORDEN: You know, I think that if we would have won, none of this would have come up. I do I agree with that.

When we were the team that won in 1996, every other team that didn't win had something to say about the arena being too loud, our fans too rambunctious. I think it's human nature.

BROWN: Yes. Well, all right. Sanjay if Olympic officials wanted to, are there medical tests they can do to find out how old these girls are.

GUPTA: You know, it's interesting. As far as age goes, there are some biological tests in terms of trying to figure it out. You could get X-rays for example, of the hands, of the hips. There are growth plates which aren't fully fused yet at a certain age. So, you can't tell to a particular day. But within a few months or year, probably get a pretty good sense how old somebody is if they wanted to investigate that.

BROWN: And quickly, Anjali, tell us how this plays out.

Is there going to be an investigation or anything?

RAO: I would be absolutely amazed if this goes any further down officials lines, Campbell. You know, even Steve Penny, the head of USA gymnastics says that as far as he's concerned, it's a matter for the IOC and the International Gymnastics Federation. Both of those bodies say that they trust what the passports say. The passport says 16, so it sounds to me like it's case closed.

BROWN: All right. To Amanda, Anjali and Sanjay. Thank you all of you. Appreciate it.

BORDEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up in just a moment, the ever-changing and frightening unpredictable scene in Georgia. Thousands of Georgians forced from their homes as Russian troops move into new territory. Firsthand insight tonight from CNN's Michael Ware, who is there on the front lines. That's next.

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BROWN: Now we want to turn to the crisis in Georgia, where the president says one-third of his country is occupied by the Russians tonight. There are some fast-moving developments.

CNN's Michael Ware was with some of the Russian troops earlier today and joins us from Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.

Michael, I know you've been to the front lines. Tell us what you're seeing.

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, what I'm seeing essentially is the Russian army sitting pretty exploiting a current American vulnerability, while the U.S. military is overstretched with its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, what's happened here in the small state of Georgia is that the Georgian government, a pro-American regime, launched an offensive against pro-Russian rebels, most likely with the knowledge of the U.S. Military. In response, Russia counter-attacked with a move that was almost likely -- just as likely prepared in advance.

The Russian offensive was mounted on two fronts. Now, the Russians seized two pro-Russian enclaves. But they weren't happy with that. They then pushed into Georgia itself. Now the U.S. Military can't make a move here and Russia's exploiting that, Campbell.

BROWN: Michael, there is a message here for the U.S. Russia's being very clear about it.

WARE: Well, what Russia is doing is trying to send a message not just to this very pro-American regime in Georgia, but to other states here in the region, many of them former elements of the Soviet Union.

We've seen the expansion of NATO. We've seen America supporting more and more of these states and that has troubled Russia. Russia has bided its time and this is the moment it's believed is best to strike. When America is overstretched. They waited for the provocation from the Georgian military so-called, in response to pro- Russian rebels and they struck decisively.

So, as Secretary Rice is due to arrive tomorrow at some time, that's the situation that confronts her. A Russia that believes it's got all the cards in its favor and is going to be very hard to deal with -- Campbell.

BROWN: Michael Ware for us tonight. Michael, thanks.

WARE: Thank you.

BROWN: Barack Obama has been on vacation all week. President Bush supposed to start his tomorrow. Vacation stage craft. The dos and don'ts when we come back.

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BROWN: In just a few moments, LARRY KING LIVE has an exclusive look at the conflict in Georgia.

Here's Larry to tell us more about it.

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LARRY KING, HOST OF "LARRY KING LIVE": Mikhail Gorbachev is my guest tonight as tension in Georgia grows. The former Soviet leader has some harsh words for Georgia's president who is also here. And Gorbachev has a warning for the United States. Is a new Cold War inevitable? Plus, we'll talk about Hillary Clinton's name being placed in nomination in Denver.

Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: When we come back, Barack Obama dressed for summer vacation and enjoying some quality family time on the beach in Hawaii. The sun, the sand and why it's all pure stagecraft. That's next.

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BROWN: President Bush is supposed to leave Washington tomorrow for a two-week working vacation at his Texas ranch. Working may be the operative word here. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will brief him on Saturday, when she gets back from her trip to France and Georgia.

Now, taking time off can be hazardous for a president or presidential candidate. You remember when President Bush got slammed three years ago for staying home in Texas, after hurricane Katrina hit. Well, that got us thinking about the stagecraft of political vacations.

And Erica Hill is here again.

And Erica, this is a case of both risk and reward, right?

HILL: Definitely a little risk and reward, Campbell. Where a president or presidential candidate chooses to spend that holiday says a lot about who they are. But it can say even more who they want the voters to think they are, which is of course, where the stagecraft of a vacation comes in.

We'll begin right now with Barack Obama on vacation with his family, setting themselves just outside of Honolulu. Now, here he is on the beach. I think we have a picture coming up. There is he on the beach, sandals in hand, looking relaxed, pretty happy. What does that look like to voters though?

We talked a lot on this program about Obama battling that elitist label. Going to Hawaii may seem fancy and tropical to a lot of Americans, but, think about why he says he's there. Why he says he's there. He did of course, grow up in Honolulu. So, he has a connection to Hawaii. He says he's there to visit his grandmother. So, it is a homecoming of sorts for him. It can also perhaps highlight his strong family bonds and stress his values, Campbell.

BROWN: So, Hawaii does seem like a logical choice for the Obamas.

But, how much effort really goes into finding an appropriate vacation spot?

HILL: It's a good question. Because they can't just vacation like you or I would. They don't want to seem out of touch with average Americans. So, they have to consider this very seriously.

In fact, President Clinton's aides would actually conduct polling on where he should go to relax. In 1995, he ended up taking a trip to Wyoming instead of Martha's Vineyard. Why? Well, apparently hiking was deemed a more positive activity with voters. Something he apparently wasn't exactly thrilled with.

President Bush on the other hand likes to keep it simple. As we know, instead of hanging out at his family's fancy compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, he spends time at his bare bones ranch in Crawford, Texas. And he's been photographed many times over the years chopping wood, clearing brush, wearing jeans, looking strong, manly, unpretentious. Just one of the guys. The message to the voters, nothing fancy. Just like you, doing my chores.

BROWN: Ah, yes. What we all do on vacation.

And Erica, as a good vacation can obviously help a politician's image, it can just as easily backfire. John Kerry probably regrets a few of those images from his vacation in 2004.

HILL: Yes. That was right after accepting the Democratic nomination four years ago, when Kerry took a trip to Martha's Vineyard to unwind. There he is there, enjoying himself, trying to look athletic, strong, adventurous. He's wind surfing or kite boarding, not sure which one it is. The only problem, Campbell, Republicans had of course painted him as a flip-flopper during the campaign. And then that wind surfing vacation ended up haunting him, you may remember this ad.

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ANNOUNCER: Kerry voted for the Iraq war. Opposed it, supported it, and now opposes it again. John Kerry, whichever way the wind blows.

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HILL: There you go. So mindful of that mistake, both of the candidates this year keeping fairly low key, as private as possible if you're wondering. If you're wondering by the way, John McCain plans to spend some quiet time at his ranch in Arizona -- Campbell.

BROWN: All right, Erica Hill for us tonight. Erica, as always, thanks.

BROWN: And that's it for me tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.