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Nancy Grace
Grandparents Finally Meet With Missing Toddler`s Mom
Aired August 14, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for eight long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Has there been another sighting of little Caylee? According to the grandmother, Cindy, yes, there has. And the grandparents explode today after a local report said sources within police say little Caylee is dead. Just hours ago, mom, Casey, finally agrees to a jailhouse visit, the first time since formal charges handed out against her in the disappearance of little Caylee. Why now? But now we learn the contents of that visit kept secret.
And today, police announce no evidence whatsoever support mom, Casey`s, claim little Caylee was kidnapped. Cadaver dogs on the search again today. And the defense gears up, now challenging the elite team of K-9 cadaver dogs, those dogs hitting on the same identical spot in the Anthony back yard and in mom, Casey`s, car trunk.
A former roommate of mom, Casey, speaks out, revealing she told lie after lie to them, as well, about Caylee`s whereabouts. Police now honing in on the 72 hours just after Caylee`s last seen alive, Father`s Day weekend, including a mysterious flurry of calls from mom, Casey, to parents` work and cells over the 72 hours, police now attempting to ping or trace those calls retroactively to locate where Casey Anthony may have traveled during that time.
With more criminal charges pending, DNA results on hair and fluid discovered in mom, Casey`s, car trunk still under lock and key, we learn tonight, investigators testing 30 separate forensic samples. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: You don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy Anthony made it clear they were in no mood for questions before their video visitation with their daughter, Casey. But when a question was asked about a detective`s theory 2-year-old Caylee may not be alive, George Anthony lashed out.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Frickin` quit publicizing that stuff! She`s out there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony insistent that her granddaughter is still alive, believing she was kidnapped, as Casey claims.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two appeared to cool off after getting away from the throng of reporters and cameras. Once inside the video visitation center, the grandparents spent 45 minutes speaking to Casey through a live video feed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will the video of the Anthony family meeting be released at any minute? And what happened at that secret meeting in jail today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police now taking a look at cell phone calls and cell phone records. They can ping those towers to see where her cell phone hit, to track her exact movements.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The former roommate of Casey Anthony`s boyfriend broke his silence. He says he often saw Casey at their apartment, but in mid-June, he no longer saw Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very tragic situation. We need her cooperation. She was probably the last person to see Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They stepped out of the car ready for a fight.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Just leave us alone, please. Do not follow us in the gates. Do not bother us when we`re standing in line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George and Cindy Anthony fed up with the media. But it was one lone question that sent sparks flying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you have to say about the new theory that Caylee might be dead and it might have been an accident?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Information leaked from the sheriff`s office, a theory involving a three-day timeline revolving around the day this home video was shot. It was captured on June 15, the day Caylee was last seen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken! She has been missing for a month!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: investigators right now believe if anything ever happened, little Caylee died on the 16th. They theorize that she may have died in an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff says what his department needs is credible information. It comes at a time when one of Casey Anthony`s associates is speaking to the media for the first time. Clint and Tony Lazaro (ph) were roommates for a few months before they ever met Casey Anthony at the end of May. Initially, Casey would come over with Caylee, but somewhere around June 15, he stopped seeing Caylee and said Casey always had an excuse.
GEORGE ANTHONY: The person or persons that has my granddaughter right now, I`m hoping that someone is just going to realize that she belongs with us, not with them. She needs to be with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, what`s the latest?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Nancy, George Anthony lashed out at reporters this morning when he went to go visit his daughter, Casey, in jail. He was asked about the theory that we talked about here last night, that a source inside the Orange County sheriff`s office thinks that Caylee may have died and it may have been an accident. When he was asked about that, he just turned to the reporter and started screaming, "Shut up" several times, even moving toward the reporter, saying, I`m sick of this, and, Get out of my way unless you want to get run over, and things like that until Cindy calmed him down. They seemed to calm down as they were going inside. And that visit did go off without a hitch. They did see Casey.
GRACE: Bottom line, Nikki Pierce -- I want to go right back with you -- do you really blame him?
PIERCE: No.
GRACE: He and his wife, Cindy Anthony, still believe very firmly that this little girl is alive. Now, this is in the face of a statement by police today they have absolutely no evidence to support the theory this little girl was kidnapped. But the grandparents want to believe. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way. I`m done with you guys. Leave me alone. Do not come past here. Please, do not come past here. Out of the respect for these other people, for a change. Honor them.
Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say about the new theory that Caylee might be dead and it might have been an accident?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
Leave us alone, please. Do not follow us in the gates. Do not bother us when we`re standing in line.
Let`s go. Let us go! Let`s go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All of this while mom, Casey, sits behind bars, refusing to speak with police or the FBI about the whereabouts of her little girl, little Caylee. Her parents, the grandparents of little Caylee, obviously skewered, living through hell every single day under the belief this little girl is still alive.
We are taking your calls live. A lot of breaking developments today. Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Dr. Bethany, I recall as a crime victim, when you are confronted with the reality and you`re not ready to talk about it, anger is a very natural response.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s true, Nancy, but we should be feeling sorry for little Casey, not for the grandparents. I mean, what they`re doing is they`re externalizing blame. They`re making it the fault of the media that they received this bad news. The fault lies at the hands of their own daughter, who`s extremely disturbed. They see information...
GRACE: But Dr. Bethany, I disagree with you.
MARSHALL: All right.
GRACE: I disagree with you. None of the facts that you have stated are wrong, but the reality is, they`re going through hell. There`s no other way to put it.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: And yes, you and I may agree that their daughter, Casey, is the reason for that, but they don`t believe that.
MARSHALL: They don`t believe it. But Nancy, they`ve lived with Caylee (SIC) a long, long time. There were probably other things that were going on in the house that could have pointed to this. I mean, who bought this baby sippy cups? Who provided food for her? Who cooked the meals? Was it Cindy or was it Casey? In other words, they`ve had a lot of time to digest the fact that their daughter is not bonded with their granddaughter. They could have known this a long time before. And it`s really easy to externalize blame, to blame the media.
But Nancy, Cindy had a lightbulb moment when she said, The car smells like there`s been a damned body in it. She saw the truth, and she has systemically disavowed and undone it over time.
GRACE: You know, what, Dr. Bethany? You`re right. Back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO radio. When did this outburst take place? It was today, but what were the circumstances surrounding it?
PIERCE: Well, they were going in to visit Casey, and the media was swarming them on their way in. They did get to go in and have the visit, which actually has been unusual in recent days because she`s been turning them away. And why she decided to see them and what they said is actually going to remain a mystery for a little while because the video visitation won`t be released until the lead detective in the case, Detective Gary Mallic (ph), says so. He gets to take a look at them first.
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Louis Bolden with WKMG. Louis, is it true that police have much more than just the hair and fluid samples taken out of mom, Casey`s, car trunk, they apparently have 30 separate forensic pieces of evidence that are being tested right now?
LOUIS BOLDEN, WKMG: That`s right, Nancy. That came from a source at the Orange County sheriff`s office. A spokesperson said -- you know, everyone has heard about the strands of hair that are the same length and color as Caylee`s. Everybody knows about that questionable stain and everyone knows about that smell of human decomposition. But he said that there are 30 samples -- there were 30 samples that were sent in to be tested, and they are still waiting for the results of those tests to come back.
GRACE: Louis Bolden joining us with WKMG. Louis, any idea what the samples are? We know that they have been in and out of the Anthony home on many occasions.
BOLDEN: Right. No, we don`t have -- we don`t know exactly what those samples are. But again, they pointed out that people know about the strands of hair, that questionable stain and that smell of human decomposition, but a source just told me that there were actually 30 samples taken from that car. Exactly what they are, we`re not sure.
GRACE: Straight out to the Anthony home there in Orlando, Florida. Joining us, our producer, Natisha Lance. Natisha, cadaver dogs searching again today. Where?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the psychic, Gale St. John, that we had on yesterday is out with two private investigators. Now, these investigators have not been hired by then Anthony family, but they are working on the case independently. Now, Gale was supposed to be on with us tonight, but she got a call...
GRACE: Stop! The dogs -- the dogs. Where were the dogs?
LANCE: The dogs were searching around the Orlando airport.
GRACE: Do you have any idea, Natisha, why the dogs were at the Orlando airport?
LANCE: This is based off of a tip, Nancy, just as every other search has been thus far.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live out to the lines. Janet in Texas. Hi, Janet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just wonder -- I looked at the sad eyes and the forced smile on this little baby girl, and I wonder if any of the friends or family have said this little girl has been abused in the past.
GRACE: You know, I haven`t heard any suggestion about prior abuse. Straight out to Louis Bolden with WKMG. What do we know?
BOLDEN: I`m sorry, Nancy. Can you repeat that, please?
GRACE: The caller is suggesting that there may have been abuse in the past of little Caylee. Do we have any suggestion that that is true?
BOLDEN: We just don`t have any information about that. Police have said they don`t have any information about whether Caylee was actually abused in the past. They haven`t -- they haven`t released anything about the situation like that.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, it`s my understanding that DFACS has never been contacted -- Department of Family and Children`s Services -- ever before to go to the Anthony home. No complaints whatsoever.
PIERCE: That`s correct. And friends and family and neighbors, everyone who was interviewed in this case said that Casey was a good mother and there were no signs of abuse.
GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, joining us there at the Anthony home in Orlando, Florida. Natisha, there was a period of time various people were in and out of the Anthony-Lazaro apartment where Casey was living, mom, Casey, was living around the time little Caylee went missing. What have they said about her behavior during that time?
LANCE: That`s right. Clint House actually gave an interview yesterday, and he said that when he first met Casey, he thought that she was a great girl. He even referred to her telling Anthony Lazaro that he should wipe (ph) her up, saying, Don`t mess up this relationship. However, he did say, as other people have said, as well, that she did tell lies about working at Universal. She told other lies. When he asked about where Caylee was, she said, Oh, she`s at Cocoa Beach or she`s with the nanny or she`s at the grandparents` house.
GRACE: You know -- to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- I find that highly unusual. Right now, we know that she has told people, many people, that the little girl was with the nanny or the baby-sitter. But now we hear a completely different story. She`s telling the guys she`s living with the baby`s with the grandparents.
PIERCE: Well, I don`t imagine that she could say every day and every night that the child was with the baby-sitter, so I suppose the next convenient untruth, as it were, would be that she was staying with the grandparents. That way, she didn`t have to make up a story about going to the baby-sitter`s and coming back.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, everyone. We`re taking your calls live. To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining us out of New York, and also out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Peter Odom.
My point, Eleanor Dixon, is not that mom, Casey Anthony, is telling another lie, all right? That`s nothing new. That`s not a headline. But now her story is changing during the time little Caylee`s going missing. So how am I supposed to believe or even hope that there is a nanny or a baby-sitter out there somewhere with the baby when she`s telling other people at the same time the baby`s with the grandparents?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, Nancy. That`s so easily verifiable. And of course, the baby wasn`t with the grandparents. The baby has been missing. And if she`s such a concerned mother, as some of these people are portraying her to be, why didn`t she report the missing child to police immediately? It doesn`t make sense.
GRACE: Mickey Sherman, weigh in.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, clearly, she`s lying. I mean, there`s no question about that. She can`t even get the same story straight. But that doesn`t necessarily mean that she`s a murderer. There`s obviously some back story here that we don`t know about, that she`s not telling us about, probably not even telling her parents about. But eventually, it`s going to unravel. Again, the child may be a security deposit for a drug dealer. It`s going to be some uncanny situation that none of us could have predicted.
GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, this whole thing about a drug deal gone bad -- that`s complete BS. This woman had to siphon gas to fill up her car tank. She didn`t have money for a drug deal.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very unlikely that any of these bizarre explanations that are coming out really have any basis in fact.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The big problem with this case is that there`s so little reliable physical information and what she says is so very unreliable. It`s just a case filled with huge gaps and questions, and that`s really the big problem.
CINDY ANTHONY: Did I fabricate a lie at that point? I worked on what ever I could to get them out there. So you know, I`m not a liar, I just stretched the truth a little bit. The car wasn`t where it was supposed to be, so I said it was stolen because I didn`t have any other reason to have the authorities come out to my house. So that doesn`t make me a liar or a murderer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators hope to develop potential search areas by tracking the cell phone towers that Casey`s phone hit on the 16th, 17th and 18th. During those three days, Casey spent time with boyfriend Tony Lazaro. And according to our source, Lazaro has told them he never saw Caylee, never saw Casey show concern for Caylee`s whereabouts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Jodie in Massachusetts. Hi, Jodie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my first question is -- I actually have two. Did anybody speak to the neighbor to find out why she borrowed the shovel? And also, I`m a nanny, and when I take a child, I give the parents emergency numbers. They give me emergency numbers, cell phone numbers. Why is there not a number for this nanny, and why did she have a nanny if she didn`t work?
GRACE: Straight out to Louis Bolden with WKMG. Louis, it`s my understanding police did speak to the neighbor regarding mom, Casey, borrowing the shovel, and the excuse given was that mom, Casey, wanted to cut back some bamboo in the back yard so little Caylee wouldn`t step on it?
BOLDEN: Well, investigators did speak with that neighbor. That neighbor has not, at this point, spoken to the media. But we did hear that from Cindy Anthony very early on in this case, that possibly Casey borrowed that shovel to dig up bamboo in the back yard. The family does have a lot of bamboo. And according to Cindy Anthony, sometimes it just sprouts out, and she says that possibly Casey borrowed that shovel for that reason.
GRACE: OK, so bottom line, yes. To Mickey Sherman, if she could break into the shed to get a gas can, why didn`t she break into the shed to get the shovel?
SHERMAN: It doesn`t make sense. And do we really know for sure...
GRACE: I know it doesn`t make sense, Mickey. You`re the defense attorney. What`s your theory?
SHERMAN: Well, the theory is -- we`re operating on, I think, probably a lot of disinformation. How do we know for sure that she borrowed a shovel? Is there solid evidence and proof of that? A lot of this is rumor. It`s innuendo. It`s stuff that`s selectively leaked by law enforcement or anybody else that`s close to the case. You can`t rely on everything you hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: That is the reason why I got a phone call at 11:00 o`clock last night. The lady was crying because of that kind of stuff on the radio -- or on the news...
GEORGE ANTHONY: Let`s go. Let us go! Let`s go.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: ... because she was afraid. And they just spotted Caylee again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not talking to anybody. I`m not talking.
CINDY ANTHONY: He`s been angry every day.
GEORGE ANTHONY: If you don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way.
CINDY ANTHONY: Angry at the fact that Caylee`s not home.
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
CINDY ANTHONY: We are helpless.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You people have no idea what we`re going through! You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me! You don`t care about her.
Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
I`m talking. I am talking! Shut up!
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re falling apart.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t care about any of this stuff!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see the grandparents of little Caylee in an angry outburst at media, this after police sources within -- deeper than police - - say little Caylee is, in fact, dead.
We are taking your calls. To Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I have to say, thank God for you, Nancy Grace.
GRACE: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I only wish that we could help find little Caylee. But police seem to believe this is now a homicide investigation. What is your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if Casey would confess where little Caylee is -- which I also think that she is dead -- would -- or could they, the state, make a deal with her?
GRACE: Absolutely. Eleanor?
DIXON: Well, they could, but if I were prosecuting, I wouldn`t. She`s waited too long. Too little, too late.
GRACE: What about it, Mickey Sherman?
SHERMAN: It would be much better yet if they could find out where she was. If she was alive, they would make a deal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: I know Casey as a person. I know what she is for a mother. And I know that there is only one or two reasons why Casey would be withholding something about Caylee, that someone is threatening her in some way.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: I just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now, is getting Caylee back.
CINDY: Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother and she would do anything, including sit in a jail cell to protect her daughter.
CASEY: I`m not sitting here (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crying every few seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives.
CINDY: She`s given as many leads as she can to us without jeopardizing Caylee`s safety.
You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail. Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not you`re fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you would have told them the truth and not lied about everything.
CASEY: I don`t want to talk to you right now. Forget it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Today we learned that defense attorney Jose Baez has filed motions to challenge the elite K9 cadaver dog search team. Today, other cadaver dogs out searching for little Caylee near the Orlando airport.
Joining me right now is a very special guest, Tracy Sargent and her dog, Cinco. He is a cadaver detection dog.
Tracy and Cinco, thank you for being with us. First of all, let me ask you this, Tracy. Is it possible for a handler to cheat -- the handler. That would be you, and cue the dog to hit on something. And I`m referring specifically to not one but, two dogs separately hitting on mom Casey Anthony`s car trunk? Is that possible?
TRACY SARGENT, K9 HANDLER & DETECTION DOG SEARCH, RESCUE AND RECOVERY SPECIALIST: Yes, ma`am, it is, but that is something we do in training in the dog to ensure that we don`t cue or give the dog an idea, this is where we want them to alert.
GRACE: What do you -- I don`t quite understand. I`m just a lawyer. What do you mean, it`s possible to lead the dog to hit, but you`re trained not to?
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am. If the handler is not aware during their training that every time they get to a source that they know where the source is that the person unconsciously slows down. Strangely enough, that actually will cue the dog that, oh, we`re getting close and this is when I need to sit down so I can get my toy.
One of the things we do in training is actually have other people hide our sources, so we as handlers don`t know where the source is, so we don`t cue the dogs and inadvertently cause the dogs to false alert.
GRACE: How do you actually test the dog`s credibility?
SARGENT: Well, there`s a number of ways. Certainly, the certification. The dog should be certified by a recognized organization. But also during our training, again, what are called blind searches to ensure that the dog and the handler working together. And.
GRACE: Right.
SARGENT: . during our training logs, there are six areas that the courts look at to ensure that the dog is a viable, credible resource.
GRACE: I believe you have a demonstration for us.
SARGENT: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Go ahead. Now tell us what you`re doing.
SARGENT: Cinco, hunt.
What he`s doing, he`s checking and he`s telling me there by his trained alert, in this case, it`s a sit, that there is human remain scent in this area and we`ll show you what he`s alerting on.
What I`m doing right now is rewarding him. In this case, it`s a baseball. So that tells him that he has found what we`ve asked him to find. In this case, it`s the command, "hunt." Now what he is responding to is a cadaver source. This is a sheet that has been soaked in a body bag where somebody has died and that the dog is telling there`s human remain scent in this area.
GRACE: Now what is it you`ve got the sheet in?
SARGENT: This is just a container, just to ensure that it`s secure and safe. It is a plastic container and this is just to make sure it doesn`t have direct contact with the dog or myself.
GRACE: So Cinco smelled it through the plastic container?
SARGENT: Actually, what you`ll see here, the end of it is split, so the scent is coming out.
GRACE: OK. Call Cinco over. I want to see him there.
SARGENT: OK.
GRACE: . beside the sample that you have in your hands.
SARGENT: Sure. I`ll need to put this up, because he`ll keep alerting on it. So I`ll give this to someone.
Come here, Cinco.
GRACE: And how long did Cinco train before he is allowed to go on searches?
SARGENT: Generally, it takes for these dogs about a year to a year and a half to have them fully operational. Cinco was fully operational at 12 months old.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.
Eleanor, I find it very telling that the main motion the defense has filed, and remember, so far, all we`ve got a child neglect case for handing out a baby over to an anonymous sitter that you can`t contact.
All we`ve got is a child neglect case, but Jose Baez, the defense attorney for mom Casey Anthony, has filed a motion in court challenging the cadaver dogs. What does it tell you?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, first of all, it`s another creative defense motion that tells me he knows there`s an indictment coming down for homicide and I don`t think this motion is going to fly.
You can`t examine the dogs yourself. You might question their handlers, but not the dogs.
GRACE: What about it, Mickey Sherman?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": It`s a good motion. I filed a motion like this in an old murder case once. The idea is the dog.
GRACE: How far did you go with it, Mickey?
SHERMAN: Well.
GRACE: That`s the point you`re leaving out of your answer.
SHERMAN: No. No, different case than you`re thinking of. The -- as your trainer there points out, the dog is only as good and effective.
GRACE: No, I`m asking you.
SHERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: You filed a motion about a cadaver dog, challenging a dog, what happened to the motion?
SHERMAN: We had a hearing whether or not the dog was properly trained.
GRACE: And?
SHERMAN: Put the logs into evidence. Eventually there was a deal made in the case. But.
GRACE: No, no, no. What happened in the motion? Let me guess, the judge decided the dog was properly trained?
SHERMAN: No, the judge decided that the evidence could go to the jury and we`d got to the weight of the evidence. But as your trainer there points out.
GRACE: Well, what happened to your motion? Was it granted?
SHERMAN: The motion was -- all we wanted was a hearing to get the logs into evidence to see exactly how effective the dogs had been trained, whether or not they had these false leads, and as the trainer very effectively points out, they -- you can be -- not corrupt, but you can be misled by alerting the dog to go some place then bringing it back and go in a different direction.
And that`s why you have to rely on the integrity of the detectives and the trainers and the handler. And also you have to find out how the dog was trained and how well it did in the training.
GRACE: Peter Odom, what about the fact that in this case, according to police, not one but two independent cadaver dogs hit on the same two spots? Separately from each other.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this motion is not only appropriate, but it`s really necessary.
Nancy, as you know and you`ve discussed on the show many times, this dog evidence, the cadaver dog evidence, is some of the most damning evidence against this suspect. And so the defense has to take it straight on and try and challenge it.
All this motion is saying is, if this evidence is so reliable, as everyone says it is, show me.
GRACE: Out to.
ODOM: Show me how the dogs were trained.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, renowned forensic scientist joining us tonight. Also today we learned, Kobi, that police are testing not just the fluids and hair samples taken out of mom Casey`s car trunk, they have 30 different samples that are being forensically tested.
What do you make of it?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, Nancy, 30 samples is not a huge number in a case like this. I`m not surprised. Remember, we -- just look at the samples we know about. There are the shovel, there are probably soil samples, there are all of these items of washed clothing that belong to Casey.
You`ve got samples from the trunk, there may be swatches cut out, including the biological sample that we`re talking about and hair. There may be shoes, there may be a number of different elimination samples.
Thirty is not a lot. And they`re obviously testing for the presence of human blood. Finding traces may not be significant, but finding significant amounts through luminol or through some of the other presumptive tests would be very important.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a telecommunications expert, Ben Levitan is joining us out of Raleigh, North Carolina.
Ben, thank you for being with us. We now find police honing in on specifically 72 hours. The theory is emerging, they believe, that something happened to little Caylee between June 16 and June 18, the Monday following Father`s Day weekend.
They are now specifically looking at a flurry of phone calls from mom Casey Anthony to her parents at home and on their cells on the 16th, 17th, and 18th. They`re trying to determine where she was during those phone attempts.
What do you make of it?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: It`s very clear from what I`ve just heard that in the call detail records, every call will tell you what cell site she was on when she started the call, what cell site she was on when the call ended.
Obviously, they found a long period of time where Caylee -- or where the mother was at Orlando Airport and they want to know, why did she spend so much time at Orlando Airport. Why did she make a significant number of calls there? Well, that could have been the time that she was burying a body or something.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re not giving up. We`re not going to give up until the time that she`s home with us. And if I have to drive this thing around every day just to (INAUDIBLE) we`ll do it. (INAUDIBLE) every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They are saying that -- they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?
CINDY: There was a bag of pizza, for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.
GRACE: To Tracy Sargent -- she`s here with her detection dog, Cinco. They`re both with Homeland Security.
Tracy, do cadaver dogs actually alert on food ever?
SARGENT: No, ma`am, they do not. That`s one of the training things that we do with these dogs that any distraction we might find out there, they are trained off of that. They are only to alert to human remain scent.
CINDY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s go straight down to Orlando, standing there outside the Anthony home, Natisha Lance of HEADLINE NEWS.
Natisha, it`s my understanding that grandmother, Cindy Anthony, has been conducting her own search for little Caylee, including a foot search. Going out and looking. Was she doing that today and yesterday?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, she was actually out in Lakeland, which is between here and Tampa. And she was there from 9:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. She`s been conducting her own search. And as well, the Anthony says that they are taking their own tips, tips that are not going into the police department.
And also today during that outburst that George Anthony had, Cindy Anthony said, you know, it`s things like this that are making people not want to call in and give tips. She said there was a woman who was going to call her but she didn`t call because of the report that the source inside the sheriff`s department thinks that Caylee is dead.
GRACE: Natisha, when Cindy Anthony is going out, looking for little Caylee on her own, where is she looking? What is the tip that`s leading her to, for instance, Lakeland?
LANCE: We don`t know exactly what those tips are. She`s not sharing those with us. She`s actually keeping them very close to the vest and George Anthony as well. He was out in (INAUDIBLE) not too long ago and he was doing his own investigating as well. He talked about the kidnappers and that they are being watched and that they know that they`re being watched.
GRACE: Natisha, what can you tell me about Cindy Anthony reporting that there has been another sighting of little Caylee Anthony? Yesterday we saw that photo -- Rosie, if you could pull that up -- allegedly of little Caylee. Is there yet another alleged sighting?
LANCE: Well, allegedly -- we`re just going off of the one from July 10th, and that was the photos that we had up yesterday. Caylee was allegedly seen with a hat pulled down, you couldn`t really see her face. However, police are saying this is not Caylee. They have not given any credence to any sighting of Caylee at this point.
GRACE: Straight out to the lines to Lisa in Alabama. Hi, Lisa.
LISA, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good dear. What`s your question?
LISA: OK. Does Casey have a history of leaving Caylee with just anybody and who are the people that the grandparents think that Caylee is with, and why are they not telling the people who they are and where they`re at?
GRACE: Very briefly, Nikki, do we have any suggestion she has left Caylee with people in the past?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Again, everyone that was asked said that Casey was a very conscientiousness mother before all of this happened. So no, there`s been no record of her leaving her with strangers in the past.
GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies" -- welcome, John.
What do you make of the grandparents going out and search for little Caylee on their own? What if they find something? If they find evidence, will that affect its admissibility in court since police didn`t find it?
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": No, I don`t think so. And the fact it`s -- I think what they`re actually doing is an exercise in futility and denial. It appears that their relationship with law enforcement has been strained.
GRACE: You know what, John? Now wait a minute. Wait a minute. If somebody in your family -- I know if somebody in my family was missing with, I`d probably be out running the streets, you know, handing out fliers, doing anything.
So to say that what they`re doing -- although you and I might not agree with it.
LUCICH: You`re not her, OK?
GRACE: Yes.
LUCICH: This is a girl who`s lied about everything, cops are on to her lies, they`re not talking to her anymore. The FBI is in on the case and she`s not talking to them. In fact, it was her own lawyer who said, you`ve got to ask me the questions first because I`m going -- I`m going to sanitize anything.
GRACE: What I`m saying is the grandparents -- I don`t fault them for doing their own search. I don`t -- I can`t bring myself to say that it`s futile, because I want Caylee to be alive just like them. But to say that it`s futile, I disagree with that. I don`t think that they can help themselves.
LUCICH: I don`t think they`re doing themselves any good. I think what they need to do is sit down with their daughter and convince her that -- that`s the best thing they need to do, is convince her to cooperate with law enforcement. One of the cops said it best the other night when he said, the only person that can solve this case is Casey.
GRACE: You know, today -- out to you, Louis Bolden with WKMG -- Casey Anthony accepts a jailhouse visit for the first time since formal charges were handed down last week. She has turned away her mother, her father, and her brother.
Why now?
LOUIS BOLDEN, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, that`s a good question, why now? You know the family is not telling us what those jailhouse visits are like. And there is an investigation exemption to that conversation. And basically, what that means is that the lead investigator has to clear that video visitation to be released to the public.
He wants to go over that visitation to see if there`s anything in it that can help his investigation.
GRACE: Out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author, this theory that a longtime babysitter took the baby, according to Casey Anthony, this woman has baby sat her for a year and a half. Why kidnap the baby now?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, and you know, when children are abducted, usually they`re abducted by a family member or relative, like the non-custodial parent. So it`s just hard to believe the story.
I think when Casey lies, she picks up on bits and fragments of truth. Maybe she wishes there was a nanny. She told the boyfriend that the baby was with her grandmother. Maybe the baby was buried at the grandmother`s. So there`s always a little bit of truth in every lie.
GRACE: To Brandy in Virginia, hi, Brandy.
BRANDY, VIRGINIA RESIDENT: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
BRANDY: My question is -- well, first, are you one hell of a mom and a heck of a woman, and we appreciate you.
GRACE: Thank you.
BRANDY: . seeing you on here every night fighting for this little girl. That means a lot.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
BRANDY: Number one, how -- I`m curious, and I kind of think if this was a friend of mine or someone I knew, I would be trying to throw a guilt trip on this mother. I mean, she carried the child for nine months, the child was two years old, she`s obviously been with her those two years, she`s bound to have some type of motherly instinct in her somewhere under this lying person we see.
And somebody needs to throw a guilt trip on her to tell her, you know, let`s at least be able to bring this child home and bury her.
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GRACE: And that question from Brandy in Virginia was -- Eleanor Dixon -- are family and friends pressuring her to confess or to give information?
DIXON: Of course they are. You heard it in their telephone calls to Casey.
GRACE: I want to go back to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. We learned yesterday that grandmother Cindy Anthony is challenging the phone company on the cell phone calls. In the sworn search warrant, we learn where mom Casey states the babysitter called and put Caylee on the phone. No such incoming phone call ever happened.
Could the phone company be wrong?
LEVITAN: That`s highly unlikely.
GRACE: Explain.
LEVITAN: That is very highly unlikely. Nancy, each system within the cell phone network keeps extensive records, but as you notice, I think, a lot of the evidence we`re talking about is emotional, but the cell phone evidence is solid forensic evidence and it`s not kept in one place, it`s in multiple places.
Because you have to remember when you`re roaming or you`re moving from one system to another, these are two different businesses essentially, and they have to keep an accounting of calls between them so they can pay each other at the end of the month.
GRACE: When you say two different businesses what do you mean?
LEVITAN: Well, Nancy, suppose you got on a plane tonight and flew down to Orlando. As soon as you got off that plane and turned on your phone, within a minute or so, your New York service provider would know that you were now in Orlando, and.
GRACE: Oh, I see.
LEVITAN: And there`s no malicious reason for that, it`s a technical reason because you want to get your phone calls so if calls come into New York, they can automatically direct it to you.
GRACE: So long story short, there`s got to be multiple failings upon several corporate entities for those phone records to be incorrect. I understand, Ben Levitan. Thank you.
Let`s stop and remember, Army Corporal Steven Candelo, 20, Houston, Texas, killed, Iraq. Wanted to enlist since playing war games as a little boy. The first in his family to go to college. Dreamed of a life with his high school sweetheart. Leaves behind parents, Julia and Alvaro, two sisters, fiancee Erica.
Steven Candelo, American hero.
Thanks to our guest and to you for being with us. And tonight, a special get-well to Mattie Adams, Aunt Mattie, in Crestview, Florida. And good night from Georgia friends of the show Juliet and Kaye.
Aren`t they beautiful?
We`ll see you tomorrow night. P.S., they`re some of the best teachers in the state of Georgia. I`ll see you tomorrow night, everybody, and until then, good night, friends.
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