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Nancy Grace
Chloroform Traces Said Found in Missing Toddler`s Mother`s Car
Aired September 03, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 11 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Traces of the powerful chemical solution chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom, Casey Anthony`s, trunk. This while sources confirm mom, Casey`s, computer reveals multiple visits to Web sites on chloroform. Now we learn even more criminal charges filed against mom, Casey, for cleaning out a so-called friend`s checking account. This as investigators go on the record, confirming there is forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old little Caylee.
Tonight, more lies uncovered by mom, Casey, these lies regarding the car, the car that has suddenly become the centerpiece of the state`s investigation. And what does it mean that today local sheriffs put up thousands of dollars to continue to search through swamps, through forests and bodies of water for little Caylee? Is a Sacramento bounty hunter actually reposting a $500,000 bond to get mom, Casey, out from behind bars? Why? All this while little Caylee`s grandparents insist she is alive and likely in Texas, Puerto Rico or Mexico. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stunning developments tonight in the case of missing tot Caylee Anthony. Evidence reportedly shows traces of chloroform found in mother Casey Anthony`s car. Her computer, confiscated by police after her July arrest, shows someone was searching Web sites for information about chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony was on national TV saying that -- demanding an apology from the sheriff`s office.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I want an apology from Kevin Feery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It won`t happen. Won`t happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re doing our job. What we need is credible information, especially from her daughter. And that`s a message I`ll send back to her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, a California bounty hunter says he will put up Casey Anthony`s bond for a second time if she says where little Caylee is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless whether she`s alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news tonight. A source close to the investigation says there is evidence of traces of chloroform in the car of Caylee Anthony`s mother. Police confiscated Casey Anthony`s computer after her July arrest and found visits to Web sites with information about chloroform.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots and stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an overpowering smell (INAUDIBLE)
CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary evidence indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.
CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Maybe my daughter ran over something.
CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin because, eventually, something`s going to happen to her if we don`t find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that are similar in length and color to that of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car and that she`s dead certainly is information we take very seriously.
GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the search command center. Standing by, our producer Natisha Lance. Natisha, this is some of the worst news that has come down regarding the chloroform story that you have confirmed. Explain to me, chloroform?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy. According to a source that I spoke to today, preliminary FBI lab results are saying that chloroform was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. And in addition to that, there was a history of searches on her computer that was confiscated by police that indicated that someone had been searching for chloroform.
GRACE: Out to famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Koby (ph), explain to us, what is chloroform?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, chloroform is a compound. Chemically, it has three chlorine groups. Essentially, it is a great solvent. It`s been used for the purpose of anesthesia in the past. It`s a known carcinogen. And it has a lot of different uses, one of which is the isolation of DNA. Laboratories that do DNA analysis use chloroform...
GRACE: Koby! Koby! Isn`t it true that many, many years ago, chloroform was outlawed for consumer use in the U.S.?
KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. Absolutely correct.
GRACE: Where do you find it?
KOBILINSKY: You can find it in hospitals. You can find it in forensic labs. You can find it in private DNA laboratories. Industry still uses chloroform as a de-greasing agent, but it is not available to the average person.
GRACE: In fact, it was outlawed back in the `70s, banned in the U.S. for consumer use. It is a solvent.
KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. And it`s a carcinogen. It`s very hazardous. It`s very volatile. You can easily breathe it in, and if you get too much, not only will you get dizzy, fatigued, but you will fall asleep. And ultimately, if you continue to breathe it in, your heart will stop and you will die.
GRACE: Back to our producer, Natisha Lance, standing by at the search command center. Natisha, you`re telling me that this is a result of the FBI report on what was found in mom, Casey`s, trunk. Chloroform in her trunk?
LANCE: Yes. This is according to the preliminary results that have come out so far.
GRACE: OK. Dr. Kobilinsky, can you give me one innocent explanation why chloroform would be in someone`s trunk? And they said chloroform. They did not say a pool cleaner. They did not say a solvent. They said the ingredient chloroform had been found in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. Why?
KOBILINSKY: That`s a very tough question. There are instances where chloroform can form as a result of a combination of bleach and ethanol or other alcohols. It could be a very small amount. We need to know how much was found. And also, we need to know if it was simply a contaminant that was picked up on this test, a contaminant, meaning...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Let me see Kobilinsky! Are you telling me that you want to see if the FBI laboratory contaminated a sample from mom, Casey`s, car trunk with chloroform? Did I -- did I -- please hold onto your good reputation~!
KOBILINSKY: OK. Chloroform is a very commonly used agent in crime labs. And I don`t think that the FBI made a mistake, but to err is human. The FBI has made mistakes before. I`m not saying they did in this case.
GRACE: Why are you doing a back bend tonight? You did it last night, too.
KOBILINSKY: No. No, I didn`t do a back bend.
GRACE: You`re doing a back bend to try to give an innocent explanation for something that is lethal, that is deadly!
KOBILINSKY: It certainly -- I agree with you. It does not look -- there`s no innocent explanation that I can think of, other than a contaminant or that it may have formed, you know, as a result of bleach and...
GRACE: How would that happen? How did you get bleach and ethanol? Did you just say bleach and ethanol?
KOBILINSKY: Yes. I`m not saying the probability is high that that happened.
GRACE: Now, how could that happen? How could you get bleach and ethanol in somebody`s car trunk, and suddenly, you have chloroform?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I think it`s an unlikely possibility, but it`s a possibility. You can get somebody trying to clean the trunk using bleach and perhaps in contact with ethanol. It`s not...
GRACE: Ethanol. Where would you get ethanol to clean a car trunk?
KOBILINSKY: Well, beer, wine...
GRACE: So you`re saying ethanol and bleach equals chloroform?
KOBILINSKY: Yes, I`m saying it`s possible. I`m not saying it`s probable, but it`s possible.
GRACE: OK. Give me the likelihood, Doctor -- give me the likelihood that that could have happened, that you could combine bleach with ethanol in a car trunk and get chloroform.
KOBILINSKY: I think the probability is low, but it`s a possibility.
GRACE: OK. You know what? Let`s go with that. Let`s unleash the lawyers. With me tonight, Atlanta defense attorney Renee Rockwell. Also with me, veteran trial lawyer out of New York Alan Ripka. Let`s just put that little scenario to a test and combine it with the computer search on Casey Anthony`s computer, seized by police, that shows multiple visits to Web sites, Alan Ripka, about chloroform.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, obviously, it`s a tough one, Nancy. However, I think you have to go a step further and you have to wonder, What is she doing with chloroform? Why would she need it? Why would she use it? If you`re indicating that she ordered chloroform off the Internet in order to kill her daughter, I have to disagree with you totally. And I have to say...
GRACE: Why?
RIPKA: ... there`s a reasonable explanation for the chloroform.
GRACE: Really? What?
RIPKA: It`s not a likely scenario that -- if you want to kill someone, you don`t need to order chloroform to do it.
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no! Explain to me the innocent explanation of ordering chloroform, if that`s when she was doing, off the Internet.
RIPKA: Well, right now, we know we have no evidence that she ordered it from the Internet, but if she did...
GRACE: No, no! Just wait! You just said, Ripka -- you just said there`s an innocent explanation if she ordered it off the Internet. Give me the explanation.
RIPKA: I think there`s an explanation, Nancy, because...
GRACE: Right. And it would be what?
RIPKA: The alternate explanation is, is that she bought it to kill her daughter, which I think is highly unlikely and thus...
GRACE: Alan?
RIPKA: Yes?
GRACE: What`s the innocent explanation?
RIPKA: Well, whatever you can use chloroform for, other than killing, is the explanation...
GRACE: Cleaning a pool? It`s in some pool solvent?
RIPKA: Well, I don`t know. It is a de-greaser. It is used for different things. I don`t know what she was working on. I don`t know what she was doing with it.
GRACE: OK. Renee, give me your best shot.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it`s also a narcotic. But I can say this. In 28 years of practice...
GRACE: It is not allowed for consumer use.
ROCKWELL: That`s correct. But I have never heard the word chloroform except on the television, but you`re jumping to the conclusion that it was her that had the chloroform and that it was her that...
GRACE: Really? Well, it was her computer! It was her computer and in her car trunk. So give me...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go ahead. You know, if you weren`t such a good defense attorney, I would advise you join Cirque du Soleil because you`re certainly doing a contortion tonight.
ROCKWELL: But Nancy, that does not mean that she`s the bad guy in this deal.
GRACE: Really? Somebody snuck in and used her computer?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, I`m pretty sure you`re not the only one that uses your computer.
GRACE: My laptop? Oh, yes, I am!
ROCKWELL: She might not be the only one that uses her laptop.
GRACE: OK. So now I guess you`re...
ROCKWELL: And she might not be the only one that...
GRACE: You`re roping in her parents into this thing.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me go back to Natisha Lance. I want to clear up what Renee Rockwell has just thrown out. Natisha, the computer that was seized of Casey Anthony`s, was it a laptop or was it a desktop?
LANCE: It was a laptop computer.
GRACE: I want to go back out to Nikki Pierce, who has joined us many, many nights from WDBO. Nikki, I also understand that searches, very intensive searches, have resumed today, and today the local sheriffs have put up thousands of dollars to help fund these searches. Where are the searches?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: The searches have been in several different areas. They checked Blanchard Park, which was a park that had been mentioned that Casey had taken Caylee to. They also searched a landfill. They searched some areas that were directed by the Orange County sheriff`s office by the Orlando International Airport because one of the cell phone records placed her out there in an unidentified area.
GRACE: Also with me tonight, Tim Miller. You all know Tim Miller. Not only is he a crime victim, he took that grief and became the head of Texas Equusearch. He is searching for little Caylee. Last night, I learned that Tim Miller wanted to come off the search, was going to pack up and go home. He told me that he was not getting cooperation from the Anthony family or from the lawyers in his search. Tim, you`ve decided to stay. Why?
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, I actually got a call this morning, Nancy, from the sheriff himself, and he said, Would you please do me a favor? And I said, Whatever I can do. And he said, Please continue this search. He said, We feel as though your organization is the only organization that`s capable of finding little Caylee`s body, if she is out there. He said the sheriff department is bringing in many airboats for us, many horses for us. He said, We know you`ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars on this, and he said, We want to go ahead and give you $5,000 to help you support this search.
And he did a huge plea to the community to get involved in this search, come out and help. And I think we are going to end up and have that search for this little girl that we was hoping we could have, with every resource in the world and a thousand people or more. So I`m optimistic. You know, I would like -- you asked me a question last night, Nancy, do I believe that Caylee`s dead? And I want to answer that. You know, I had some respect for this family at that time. And no, I do not believe that Caylee is alive. I believe Caylee is within three miles of where we are sitting right now, a three-mile radius. And we will cover every...
GRACE: Tim...
MILLER: ... single square inch...
GRACE: Tim, why do you say that? Why do you believe that she`s within a three-mile radius?
MILLER: I just think that. I mean, with the areas that we`ve got -- again, it`s no secret where the towers are that her cell phone went off of, and it`s putting it kind of close to where we are right now, so -- and there`s no guarantee of that, of course, but we will cover every square inch and then we`ll work out from there. But everybody is determined to focus on this and go ahead and see if we can bring this little baby home and...
GRACE: You are seeing the -- you are seeing the search locations where Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch is searching.
To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, the local sheriff anted up thousands of dollars today to help pay for the search. Where`d they get the money?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s actually confiscated drug money. And not only did he donate that $5,000, he helped organize a team of horseback- riding cops to search on mounted horseback, and also airboats, because if you look at the area out there, it`s a swampy area, and with the rains that we`ve had, there`s a lot of flooded areas out there where they can use airboats to search.
GRACE: And Drew, isn`t it true that various Moose lodges, the men of various Moose lodges, are joining together to help in the search?
PETRIMOULX: That`s not something that I`ve heard.
GRACE: What do you know about that, Nikki Pierce?
PIERCE: I`ve heard that some Moose lodges have been involved in the search. It was recently released that Moose lodge members from all over this area are going to be joining Equusearch to pitch in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The initial evidence, even though it`s not totally conclusive, has come back with some decomposition of a body. I hope that`s not the case because I`m a dad. But the bottom line is real simple. We need to try to find some closure on this case. That`s what we need to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. If you guys...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony feels her granddaughter Caylee is alive, even with test results indicating there was a dead body in the back of mother Casey Anthony`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?
CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely, just as much as I did last week.
Right now, I think she`s somewhere in Texas or even Puerto Rico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Tonight we learn from sources that in FBI reports, traces of chloroform, a highly, highly dangerous chemical solution, were found in mom, Casey`s, car trunk.
And also -- back to you, Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the search command center. What more can you tell me about those multiple searches on mom, Casey`s, computer about chloroform?
LANCE: Well, we don`t know exactly when those searches went through, Nancy. But what I can tell you is that this is a laptop that Casey had said to other people before that she used this for work purposes. So we don`t know...
GRACE: Work? Work? What work? I know of three jobs she`s lied about, the job at Universal, the job at the Fusian club and the job at Sports Authority. None of that was true.
LANCE: That`s correct.
GRACE: So what was she using the computer for, other than to go to Web sites about chloroform?
LANCE: She was also using the computer to go on Facebook and MySpace.
GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wait. Forget about that. Was she searching about how to buy it, how to use it, how to create it. What were the searches, Natisha?
LANCE: Those details haven`t been released as of yet, Nancy, but we just know that there has been a history of chloroform searches on the computer.
GRACE: And we know that these searches were discovered on or around July 16 when police seized the laptop, correct?
LANCE: That`s correct.
GRACE: But we don`t know when the searches occurred?
LANCE: That`s correct.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody give Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your -- get your facts straight!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Amy in Georgia. Hi, Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a comment and quick question. I cannot believe that they were going to offer her limited immunity in case it was an accident. I hear stories on the news all the time about 4 and 5- year-olds calling 911 when a parent was in distress. So if it was an accident and she didn`t call 911, doesn`t that show that she certainly contributed to the accident or implicates her in any way?
GRACE: Amy, if I even see a fender bender, I call 911 from my cell phone. So I agree with you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doesn`t that show that that -- you know, that she at least contributed maybe to the accident?
GRACE: To Leslie Austin. Dr. Austin, what do you think?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, no, I don`t think you can necessarily say that. But what you can say is -- observe her behavior. She`s not been forthcoming on anything here, so I don`t think...
GRACE: Leslie, why are you saying that? Because if you saw somebody pass out on the sidewalk, what would you do...
AUSTIN: Of course I`d call 911.
GRACE: ... go bury their body? You would call 911?
AUSTIN: Of course, I would.
GRACE: Then why are you applying a double standard to Casey Anthony.
AUSTIN: You can`t draw a conclusion about what she did or didn`t do. We don`t know. We`re speculating.
GRACE: Well, maybe you can`t, but apparently, Amy in Georgia can, and I bet you my bottom dollar that a jury would do the same thing as Amy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter, where`s Caylee?
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?
CINDY ANTHONY: She doesn`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
CINDY ANTHONY: Zeny is the baby-sitter that has watched Caylee consistently for the last maybe year and a half.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Zenaida Gonzalez that has been talked to us by Casey is nonexistent to this point.
ZENAIDA FERNANDEZ-GONZALEZ, ALLEGED BABYSITTER OF CAYLEE: I haven`t been able to get a job, haven`t been able to do much of nothing because everybody is just judging me by my name.
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Did you ever call the baby- sitter on your -- on your cell phone, ever receive a call from the baby- sitter on your cell phone number?
CASEY ANTHONY: I most definitely did.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The affidavit says Casey`s cell phone record show no numbers belonging to a Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
CINDY ANTHONY: That`s a misstatement.
CASEY ANTHONY: They arrested me because they said that?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, because they said that the person that you dropped Caylee with doesn`t even exist.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live. The news is bad. We have confirmed reports that the FBI indicates chloroform was found in the car trunk of mom Casey Anthony. This along with evidence that multiple searches to chloroform Web sites were found on her laptop bode ill.
Out to the lines, Nancy in Florida. Hi, Nancy.
NANCY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
NANCY: Well, I have a statement and a question.
GRACE: OK.
NANCY: And my statement is that I think that this whole story came to fruition about what happened to that little girl when the grandparents found that car. They knew at that point. And then when Casey made the remark that they were going to blame this all on me.
And my question is, I think, right now, that the grandparents are covering up for Casey and I think that they need to be charged.
Is there any way they can be charged for helping to cover this up?
GRACE: You know, that`s a toughy, Nancy in Florida.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alan Ripka out of New York.
Renee, under our jurisprudence system, there is no duty to be a Good Samaritan. There`s no duty to voluntarily go to police and tell what you know. I get the impression from the parents that they believe their daughter -- or let me rephrase. They want to believe their daughter.
What say you about possible criminal charges, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Perfectly natural for them to want to protect their daughter. And, Nancy, the only way they`re going to get in trouble is if they try to run the police down some dead end road and tell them a story.
So if they do nothing -- if they do not obstruct or lie under oath, there are no charges.
GRACE: Alan?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, obstruction of justice is probably the only charge and they would have to lie or make up stories, as Renee has indicated. I see that as the only way of them getting in trouble.
And, look, they`re family and all families are going to stand behind their children at this time, Nancy.
GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies" -- John, there is such a thing as accessory after the fact, but they would have to do a lot more than just believe what Casey Anthony is telling them. They would have to actively hide evidence or mislead cops, as Rockwell just said.
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Yes, like the time she pulled off pants out of the car and then washed them. She would have been locked up at that point.
GRACE: Now, now, I disagree with that. Yes, it may have held evidence, but at that juncture, why was she to believe that there was forensic evidence on a pair of pants?
LUCICH: Oh, wait a second, this is a car that this woman just said that she thinks there`s a dead body in there and the first thing she did was tamper with evidence. That`s exactly what this woman did when she pulled that pair of pants out of it, took it home, and washed it before the cops found out about it.
I think that that right there, they should have done something and for some reason, they didn`t. She tampered with the crime scene.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, John Lucich. I want to talk to you about the computer search. Is there a way -- we all know at this juncture that the FBI report indicates chloroform, a highly toxic chemical solution, it has been banned from use in the U.S. for consumer purposes, way back in the `70s, found in mom Casey Anthony`s car trunk.
We also know her computer shows multiple searches to various chloroform Web sites. Can, for instance, Yahoo! or Google or similar search engines be subpoenaed for her searches? How would that work, in a nutshell?
LUCICH: First things first. There is absolutely no innocent reason why she needs to possess chloroform whatsoever and I think you`re going to be happy with that answer.
If she needed to clean something up, she wouldn`t have tried to buy a -- an illegal chemical or tried to make an illegal chemical when bleach could have done.
OK, number two. There`s only two reasons she could have used chloroform was because if she wants to knock her daughter out or she (INAUDIBLE) did something, or she wants to O.D. this little girl and kill her like Kobi said before.
Now they don`t need to go to Google, because everything you do in a Web browser is stored right on your hard drive. It`s cached and people think that because they empty the cookies -- because they delete the cache, that that`s all going to make that go away.
Whatever they do at Yahoo!, Google, is on that hard drive and that`s what they found. There`s no reason to go to those people.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this, Lucich. Say you take your laptop, you put it in the front driveway and you beat it with a hammer.
LUCICH: No.
GRACE: Can you still get the information from the search engine such as Yahoo! or Google?
LUCICH: Absolutely.
GRACE: OK.
LUCICH: If you beat that computer up really, really bad, even if you submerge it in water, the only it`s going to -- if you break those platters, you`re pretty much done, but if you just damage that drive, we can pull those platters out, get the data off and recover it, one, two, three.
GRACE: Got it.
Joining us right now is bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. He helped Casey Anthony get out of jail on a $500,000 bond, helped get her back in jail by coming off that $500,000 bond.
Padilla, you told me that you do not believe the little girl is alive. And yet I`m hearing rumblings you`re going to go back on the bond and get her out?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED PUT CASEY ANTHONY BACK IN JAIL: No, no, that`s not true. What we`ve said to her brother, Lee, who`s constantly on the phone to us, is that if she came clean and told law enforcement where the child was and law enforcement went out and regained the body, we would treat it just like any other person accused of a crime who would want bail pending the proceedings.
GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute. Hold on. Don`t move, Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, joining us out of Sacramento, California.
Alan Ripka, Renee Rockwell -- to you, Renee, aren`t there certain crimes that allow no bond, crimes such as premeditated capital murder?
ROCKWELL: Absolutely, Nancy. But she`s not charged with that. (INAUDIBLE) they can charge.
GRACE: No, no, but, hold on. Put on the brake, Miss Rockwell.
Alan Ripka, my point is, yes, I know she`s not charged with murder. What I`m saying is, if Padilla gives her the bond and she helps them find the body, once she helps them find the body, if there is a body, she`s going to be charged with murder one. No bond.
RIPKA: Well, she -- well, that`s right and she`ll be back. But, obviously, when she turned down the immunity deal, she gave up the chance that she wouldn`t be arrested. However, at this particular time, she`s not going to help them with anything. Because as soon as she helps them find the body, she`s arrested and she`s in, and that`s the end of the whole story, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to the lines.
ROCKWELL: How can you say that?
GRACE: Because it makes common sense?
ROCKWELL: But, Nancy, what if the baby died of an accident and she just covered up the death?
GRACE: You know what? We can hear that affirmative defense at trial. Accidents, self-defense are affirmative defenses that say, yes, the accident occurred but I`m not guilty of the murder.
Out to the lines, Angela in North Carolina, hi, Angela?
ANGELA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I have some quick question. Was Casey and her parents on good terms when the baby -- when she came and got the baby for the last time?
GRACE: OK. Second question?
ANGELA: Her -- excuse me, Nancy, I`m so -- speaking to you.
Was her father, being an ex-cop -- is that why she is so good at lying to the police, because she`s been lying to her parents all this time?
GRACE: Angela in North Carolina, you could teach that Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, a thing or two.
Let`s take a look at these two questions. Number one, to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the search command center, was there a rift between the parents -- the grandparents and Casey Anthony?
It`s my understanding they were considering urging her to move out and get her own place, finally. She`s almost 24 years old.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. When I`ve spoken to Cindy Anthony, she said that there was no risk, that Casey was just trying to move out and get her own place, and actually mentioned that this woman who she says was keeping Caylee -- Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: Yes.
LANCE: . was somebody that Casey had considered moving in with when she moved out of the house because they were close friends.
GRACE: Well, you know what? They can put perfume on a pig if they want to. It sounds to me like Casey was getting kicked out of the house. We know grandmother Cindy wanted her to take better care of little Caylee.
And on that second question, I`m going to through this one to you, Dr. Leslie Austin, why is she just a great liar? And when we come back from our break, we have information from the boyfriend about some of those lies.
Leslie?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I don`t think it`s because she`s a child of a policeman, number one. But number two, she`s a practiced liar because she`s only out to save herself. She`s so narcissistic, she`ll do anything to get her own way and she`s good at it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s a case that gets more bizarre by the minute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where`s Caylee? At least where`s her remains?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And the kettle is boiling more and more with every passing moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the hell is going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are these people?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called in and said, it smells like there`s a dead body in my daughter`s car. Why did you say that for? Because you know there was a dead body there.
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I don`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re lying. Why did you say it then? Why did you say it?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: We`re taking your calls live, out to Nancy in Florida. Hi, Nancy.
NANCY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
NANCY: Actually, I have two quick questions.
GRACE: OK.
NANCY: I would like to know why Casey is being portrayed as the victim when it`s actually Caylee who`s the victim. Also, I thought that I had heard Cindy was a nurse. And if this was true, could she have had something to do with obtaining the chloroform?
GRACE: Does she have something to do with what?
NANCY: Obtaining the chloroform.
GRACE: Obtaining the chloroform.
OK, first of all, don`t -- Nancy in Florida, stay right there. Who is portraying Casey Anthony as a victim?
NANCY: Well, it just seems to me that, you know, because she`s in protective custody and she continually lies one upon the other, the family, of course, is going to stand by her side, but Leonard Padilla and the Equusearch people and just many, many people just seem to be wanting to protect her.
She must be in danger, I`m sure, because of the threats, but I think the focus needs to be taken more off of her and.
GRACE: You know, Nancy, I think you`re right. And I`m going to go to Leonard Padilla. Let`s get it from the horse`s mouth.
Bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, went on a $500,000 bond, came off it, now he`s talking about going back on it to let mom, Casey, out of jail, if she helps locate daughter, Caylee.
You know, you have talked quite a bit as if Casey Anthony is the victim in this case, Mr. Padilla.
PADILLA: That might be what it sounds like, but believe me, that`s not what`s in my mind and that`s not what`s in my heart. I`m only interested in Caylee.
GRACE: You said something extremely interesting last night. You told me that the dumpster near the boyfriend`s apartment may become part of this case. Why did you say that?
PADILLA: Well, it`s just an indicator, like you were talking about the laptop and the chloroform searches, and now they find traces of it.
One thing I might want to ask your expert, and I can`t remember, but isn`t there something about urine mixed with chlorine that might also create a chloroform situation?
GRACE: Very quickly, Kobilinsky, anything to that?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Again, I think it`s highly doubtful, very doubtful.
GRACE: OK. It`s not like you`ve got a laboratory set up in the woman`s car trunk, Mr. Padilla. But back to the dumpster quickly.
PADILLA: I believe that possibly the child drowned, she hurriedly picked her up out of the pool, the diaper had urine, the chlorine, throw her in the trunk, and then try and figure out, now what do I do? I`ve got a dead child, what do I do?
But that strictly speculation. The dumpster itself.
GRACE: You know, typically, when a child drowns in a pool, you call 911 or you try to revive him.
PADILLA: I absolutely -- yes, yes. Absolutely. I understand that. And we`ve tried to, you know, like the two hits in the backyard, where did they come from, you know?
GRACE: You know.
PADILLA: But anyhow, the dumpster itself is a situation where because where the car was found and because the dumpster was unique to the car -- in other words, the car wasn`t abandoned because it ran out of gas. She wouldn`t have parked next to the dumpster in that particular situation. Yes.
GRACE: Oh, I see. Near the Amscot.
PADILLA: Exactly.
GRACE: The dumpster near the Amscot.
PADILLA: Yes, exactly.
GRACE: OK. Speaking of the boyfriend, I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the search command center.
What did you learn from Anthony Lazzaro?
LANCE: Well, I spoke to Anthony Lazzaro today, Nancy, and he told me a little bit about the Amscot where Casey abandoned that car. He was actually the person who picked Casey up after she abandoned the car.
He said that she had called him late that morning, said that her car had run out of gas, that this is nothing that was unusual, her car had run out of gas before. He went to go pick her up. She was already standing outside of the vehicle with groceries in her arms.
He said, is there anything I need to look at? And she said, oh no, don`t worry about it, my dad was going to take care of it. He brought her back to the apartment and he said that she stayed there for the rest of the afternoon.
Now he went on vacation a few days after this and he even spoke to her again and asked her, did your dad, you know, take care of the car? And she said, yes, my dad took care of the car, he took it to a dealership, they`re working on it, they`re going to find -- I`m going to get a new car, they`re going to trade it in.
And he -- the interesting thing that he said is that she gave specific information, specific information in terms of where the car was taken, even the names of people who worked on the car.
But as we know, that car was never taken to any type of dealership to get worked on because it was at that Amscot, and it was towed away.
GRACE: That`s incredibly elaborate lies.
Very quickly, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, don`t you just hate it? Don`t you just cringe when your client not only starts talking, Alan Ripka, but starts giving these elaborate, huge, honking lies?
RIPKA: Well, of course, we hate it. Because what happens, if it ever comes to the time where there`s a trial, sometimes a lot of this evidence comes in. The boyfriend will come in and discuss these.
GRACE: Oh yes.
RIPKA: . things and my client can lose credibility as a result of it in a close case.
GRACE: Yes, you`re only protected against what you say to cops if you don`t get Miranda.
To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO -- Drew, what is the family response to the discovery of chloroform in the car?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: You know, lately they haven`t been saying much at all to the media so we -- we didn`t get a response to them. The only thing we`re getting -- that we get responses from is her attorney Jose Baez and even he hasn`t responded to that.
GRACE: What about it, Nikki Pierce?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I got to go with Drew. Haven`t heard a thing yet because this was breaking so late right before we went on camera. So we`ll wait to see what they have to say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To Sacramento, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla -- Mr. Padilla?
PADILLA: Nancy, have your producer go back and talk to Lazzaro about what time he picked her up with the groceries? Because the lady, Mrs. Sanchez that manages that store says the car was there at 7:00 a.m. that morning of the 27th.
GRACE: So her car was already there out of gas at 7:00 a.m.?
PADILLA: Yes. That`s what Mrs. Sanchez said in her statement to the law enforcement. So how did Lazzaro pick her up?
GRACE: How do you run out of gas at 7:00 a.m. unless you left your car late there the night before?
PADILLA: Correct. So have your producer go back to Lazzaro and ask him what time and -- you know what the groceries were about.
GRACE: Will do.
Everyone, let`s stop our discussion and remember Army Staff Sergeant Emanuel Pickett, 34, Teachy, North Carolina, killed Iraq, on a second tour. A police captain back home. He pioneered a neighborhood crime watch, a program to mentor fatherless kids.
He had a smile that lit up a room. Loved coaching basketball. Leaves behind parents, Carey and Eliz(ph), five siblings and grieving widow, one son, two daughters.
Emanuel Pickett, American hero.
Thanks to our guests. Our biggest thank you, as always, is to you for inviting us into your home. And tonight a special good night from Georgia friends of the show from North Star Church, Peggy, Susan and John.
And happy birthday to one of our superstars on the show, Beth. There she is.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night.
END
