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Nancy Grace
Attorney for Missing Toddler`s Grandparents Speaks
Aired September 10, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 12 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Is mom, Casey, headed back to jail? Charges expected at any moment. And in a stunning move, the defense team demands all testing -- repeat, all testing -- of scientific evidence in the Caylee investigation be stopped immediately! The FBI discovers so much of the powerful solution chloroform in mom, Casey`s, car trunk, even the air in the trunk itself was saturated. Investigators announce forensic evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old little Caylee.
Grandparents Cindy and George Anthony hire a criminal defense lawyer, who goes on the attack, insisting little Caylee is still alive. Tonight, he is with us live. Mom, Casey, sits all day behind closed doors while volunteers continue to search for her little girl, a whopping $1.5 million offer on the table for mom, Casey`s story, a Web site in the works to solicit money for mom, Casey`s, legal defense fund, not money for the fund to search for her little girl.
And angry citizens protesting nearly around the clock, even digging through the Anthonys` trash for clues while grandfather, George Anthony, faces possible criminal charges after a confrontation with protesters. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It smells like there`s a dead body in my daughter`s car. Why did you say that for? Because you know there was a dead body there! You liar!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lawyer hired by Caylee Anthony`s grandparents says people are blurring the lines between the couple and their daughter, Casey. He says accusing George and Cindy Anthony is the worst kind of judgment here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Families are victims. And we`ve forgotten that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the ongoing mystery into the whereabouts of 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, attorney has filed a motion asking the court to preserve forensic evidence in the case and wants the court to consider additional testing. Also breaking today, a source believes local police will file some new check fraud-related charges against Casey Anthony in the next few days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: What did the person do that you need arrested?
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.
911 OPERATOR: For what?
CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter, Where`s Caylee?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: High-profile central Florida defense attorney Mark Nejame is lashing out against those who are going after his clients, George and Cindy Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people say they`re in denial. So what? Allow them. If that`s what they need to process and grieve -- no, excuse me. If that`s what they need to process and grieve, then that`s what they need to process and grieve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nejame said one of the problems he`s trying to iron out is people are blurring the lines between his clients and their daughter, Casey. He says George and Cindy are working with authorities, answering calls about possible sightings of the little girl, but they aren`t digging up dirt, looking for bones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say about the new theory that Caylee might be dead, it might have been an accident?
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Shut up! Shut up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They believe, they desperately believe, that Caylee is still here. And that`s their right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been speculation of possible book deals with the Anthonys. Nejame says the family has no intentions of doing that. Also, he says, the family did not pay one penny to bond their daughter out of jail last week, but they did sign a promissory note to look after her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the person leaves -- clearly, the Anthonys don`t have this kind of net worth, and that means the bondsperson will have something to go after and take everything that the people own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. With us tonight, a special guest, the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony, the grandparents in this case, the grandparents of little Caylee, now missing for 12 long weeks. Mark Nejame is with us. Sir, thank you for being with us.
First, I want to go to Mark Williams with WNDB. What`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Nancy, as we`ve talked about earlier, tot mom, Casey Anthony, could be arrested at any moment. That`s what sources close to the investigation are saying. Apparently, she has passed some additional bad checks to area businesses, such as Winn-Dixie, which is a supermarket chain here in the South, AT&T and some other places of interest, as well.
These checks came her friend`s car, Amy Huizinga (ph). If you recall, Amy went on vacation to Puerto Rico, allowing Casey to use the car, and she allegedly took some checks. She`s passing this bad paper. She was arrested two weeks ago on fraudulent charges, as well. So that`s the big thing. Again, sources close to the investigation say that Casey Anthony could be busted at any moment, Nancy.
GRACE: Now, let me ask you this. If she is busted, as you say, will she go straight back to jail?
WILLIAMS: It`s my theory that she will be processed in, but the deal is, she`s already out on the $500,000 bond. She will have to be arraigned, of course, make a first appearance, and she will have to be let out on bail on that, if somebody wants to put bail up for those charges, which last time, if I recall, was only, like, $2,500 or so.
GRACE: Straight to Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. Sir, thank you for being with us. Everyone, Mr. Nejame is a veteran criminal defense attorney, no stranger to a courtroom. It`s a pleasure to have you on.
And at the very outset, sir, let me advise you that many of us continue to keep George and Cindy Anthony in our prayers, along with little Caylee. Their distress over her disappearance Is obvious to everyone on our show. We do not think they are part of any plot regarding little Caylee.
I am curious why they fell they should hire a criminal defense attorney.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: First of all, thank you for having me.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
NEJAME: And I appreciate the kind words. At the risk of sounding patronizing, who are they expected to hire, a real estate lawyer? So this is...
GRACE: No, a PR person, if you`re intending a PR blitz, like the one you have conducted.
NEJAME: No, that`s not what we`re doing. What`s happened is, is that this is a complex legal system. There are more twists and turns in this case than probably any case I`ve seen in my 28 years of practice.
GRACE: Not for them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes, very much so. There`s been suggestions that George would be arrested for everything from the gun to the trespass case that`s existing. There`s comments all over the place. And I appreciate your comment because a lot of people don`t understand it, and that is that they are not suspects. They are not people of interest. In fact, the Orange County sheriff`s office, who`s conducting a very intensive investigation, extremely professional in the way they`ve been talking and dealing with me, have indicated that they are not to be involved in any way, that they have not been involved in any way.
Many, many people don`t believe that. If you read the blogs, if you read the e-mails, if you listen to a lot of the news reports, many people believe they are suspects. And I appreciate greatly your confirming that because the Orange County sheriff`s office has stated exactly what you said. They are not suspects. They are not people of interest.
GRACE: So they are hiring you, a criminal -- a veteran criminal defense attorney, because of the pending charges against Mr. Anthony?
NEJAME: No, not at all. It`s completely -- it`s about everything. We are veterans in dealing with the media. It`s something that we`ve been doing for many years. So there`s a media aspect to this case, obviously. I think this case has turned into the three-ring circus that it has for many reasons, and one of those reasons has been the mishandling of the media. These are just simple grandparents...
GRACE: I think -- all due respect, sir, but I think the mishandling of the media should be the least of concerns in this case. And Mr. Nejame, certainly, you have tried to tell your clients, George and Cindy Anthony, the reason the public is having this reaction to them, because they, many people believe, have the power to convince Casey Anthony to tell the truth about little Caylee.
NEJAME: Do you think that there are any people in this earth that want to find Caylee more than...
GRACE: No, I do not.
NEJAME: ... than George and Cindy? So do people not think they have done anything within their human power to do that? But...
GRACE: I do not think they have. And I`ll tell you what I think is lacking...
NEJAME: That`s speculation, though, because they have.
GRACE: You just asked me, sir, and I am giving you an answer! And the reason I don`t think that they have done everything that they can is because they are turning away from the truth, number one. I do believe those two, Cindy and George Anthony, love this little girl more than anybody else on this earth and want to find her more than anybody, including their daughter, Casey Anthony. But by precluding the possibility that little Caylee is deceased, they are prolonging a search for her.
NEJAME: We couldn`t disagree more. There`s been a lot of misstatements concerning that. People have wondered why they`ve not been out there in the fields digging with many of those wonderful volunteers who are going out there, who believe different than they do. They believe that Caylee is no longer with us. They bless and support those people. They just disagree with the conclusion.
Now, what we are asking for is for people to stop attacking them so they can go about the business, which is another path. They have hope. And people said there`s only a 1 in 100 chance that little Caylee is with us. But somebody has to be that one. So for them to hold on hope, is that a terrible thing?
GRACE: No.
NEJAME: It`s not.
GRACE: It`s not terrible.
NEJAME: It`s not. And for them to stick a shovel in the ground means they`ve surrendered to the universe and to themselves that Caylee is no longer with us.
GRACE: OK...
NEJAME: And they`re not ready to do that, and that should be respected and understood.
GRACE: What about the fact that by not encouraging and fully supporting the search for little Caylee, dead or alive, by turning away from the evidence, they are prolonging the search and prolonging volunteers, police, money, people`s prayers, their thoughts?
NEJAME: What`s been -- what`s been prolonging that are the distractions which we`re attempting to stop.
GRACE: OK, take a listen to this. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odder. I smelled (ph) rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)
GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your -- get your facts straight!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We got a notice about the car on Tuesday, July 15. When I finally met up with Casey, she said that Caylee was with the baby- sitter, Zanny.
Caylee wasn`t with her, like she had told me she was with her for the last month.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: She was kidnapped by the nanny and -- you know, and that`s what she maintained. She told me, you know, some things during the month of June because she was trying to look for her and trying to get her back herself.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There was no reason to believe that Casey and Caylee weren`t together at any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With us tonight, a primetime exclusive, the criminal defense attorney for Cindy and George Anthony, grandparents of little Caylee, Mark Nejame. He`s joining us live in our Manhattan studios. He`s a veteran trial lawyer.
I just played you a tiny bit of sound of your clients, George and Cindy Anthony, suggesting that another dead body was placed in their car trunk. This screams of denial. And the reason I believe so many people are venting at them, are venting at your clients, is because it`s perceived that they can get answers out of Casey Anthony.
NEJAME: And if they could, they would. But you know, denial -- many people have said that they`re in denial, but the reality of it is, is whoever our creator is has given us this wonderful thing called denial. It allows us to process great pain and great loss in our lives. And you know, you`ve got a psychologist on, I understand. The Kubler-Ross model -- you know, the first stage is denial of grief. The last stage is acceptance. And it`s surely not a linear process.
So for people to process as they need to, why should anybody be angry at them because it is taking them whatever it takes to figure out what they need to figure out? They believe today that she is alive. God bless them for that.
GRACE: I assume that that is not a rhetorical question, sir, and I will answer you. The reason they are angry is because a life, potentially, could hang in the balance. That`s why in every day that passes, either Caylee Anthony, a 3-year-old little girl, is in more and more danger alive, or 3-year-old Caylee is decomposing somewhere and may never be found. There`s no time for denial.
NEJAME: But they agree with both roads to be traveled. They agree that anybody that believes she`s no longer with us continue to conduct those searches. God bless those people. But for those that take another path and believe that she`s still with us -- you know, they`ve gotten over 20 different cities, people from 20 different cities in the last several days, who are wanting T-shirts and posters and everything else to be sent out for those who are still in search of a live Caylee. So they`re not impeding anything. In fact...
GRACE: You stated that there are two new leads in the search for Caylee. What are they?
NEJAME: I`m sorry, I don`t -- no, I said...
GRACE: I understand that there are two new leads?
NEJAME: No, I...
GRACE: Since you`ve been on the case.
NEJAME: No, I`m sorry. I`ve gotten -- in fact, there`s four now. I`ve had -- we`ve had four different people contact us concerning information they have as to having seen her. So we pass them...
GRACE: What is it? Where is she?
NEJAME: They`re different cities. We turned them over to law enforcement.
GRACE: Well, what are they?
NEJAME: We`ve spoken to law enforcement as recently as...
GRACE: Well, why don`t you want the public to know what the new leads are?
NEJAME: I would like to. I`m respecting law enforcement, which I know you surely want to do, and they`ve asked us not to state any of this on the public, not state it on the airwaves because it might impede, in fact -- it might, in fact, impede investigations. And the person that I spoke to was the chief with the Orange County sheriff`s department. So we confirmed that, but I`m not going to jeopardize...
GRACE: OK, I respect that.
NEJAME: ... any investigation. And I think you would. So we`re not going to go there.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, sir. How long had Casey Anthony been freeloading off her parents, stealing from her parents unstopped, unchecked, it was allowed?
NEJAME: And that has really nothing to do with what I`m talking to you about today.
GRACE: That may be true, but my question...
NEJAME: And if it`s true, I`m not going there because where I am going is the fact that there`s been these -- too many of these diversions, which are irrelevant and they`re sensational and they have nothing to do with finding Caylee. Caylee needs to be found, wherever she may be. And all we`re saying is let`s stop this media circus and let`s allow those who believe she`s still with us on this earth -- and if there`s only a 1-in-100 chance, then God willing, she might be that 1.
Let`s not forget about Joe Benet Ramsey (SIC) and that type of case...
GRACE: JonBenet Ramsey.
NEJAME: JonBenet -- I apologize for the mispronunciation. You know, the fact of the matter is, for 10 years, that poor mother was vilified and chastised and crucified in the press and by law enforcement officers and by the public...
GRACE: Well, sir...
NEJAME: ... and then she passes.
GRACE: ... many people still believe...
NEJAME: And then she passes. No, allow me to finish, please. And then she passes. And two months after 10 years, then she was exonerated. It can happen. It does happen. And if people believe that little Caylee is no longer with us, then God bless them for helping out.
GRACE: Sir, we`re going to have to go to commercial break, so please hold the sermon.
Let`s take the calls. To Donna in Ohio. Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. Hey, I have a couple questions. Has anybody questioned Casey about the chloroform that was found in the vehicle? And also, the woman on the television the other night said that it would be traced -- or the only way to order it was with a credit card. Has anybody traced anything, you know, back to a credit card where she ordered it?
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the Anthony home. What about it, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, if anybody`s asked her about it, we do not know about it. The only person that Casey has been talking to about this case is her attorney, Jose Baez.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. In addition to Mark Nejame, the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony, joining us live tonight and taking your calls, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alex Sanchez out of New York.
To you, Renee. There`s no way that law enforcement has asked her about the chloroform. It was discovered after she got a defense attorney.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. And that was the smartest thing she could have done because she doesn`t need to say anything else. She is a suspect. I don`t care what anybody says.
GRACE: Alex?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: An operation (ph) of law, the police simply cannot speak to her unless they get permission from Mr. Baez, and I`m sure Mr. Baez is not giving permission.
GRACE: Back to Mr. Nejame, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He`s joining us here from our Manhattan studios. He is a Florida criminal defense attorney, practices in multiple jurisdictions. Have your clients acknowledged the chloroform in the car? Do they have any idea where it may have come from?
NEJAME: And again, that goes to an area that we`ve been specifically asked not to get into it by law enforcement. But I need to make one point very clear.
GRACE: OK.
NEJAME: It won`t be a sermon. I`ve never met Casey Anthony. I`ve never met her lawyer. I`ve never spoken to either of them. I`ve never had any communication with them whatsoever. We have nothing to do with that case. We have everything to do with assisting the Anthonys and their quest to find Caylee.
GRACE: Sir, many people have suggested, I believe erroneously, that Cindy Anthony, with a nursing background, may have had the ability to somehow get her mitts on chloroform. So that is a real issue for you.
NEJAME: Well, it`s an issue for people who choose not to believe law enforcement, who`ve clearly gone through all these issues and with hours and hours of discussions with my clients, and have made a determination that they have had nothing to do with this. They are not people of interest and they are not suspects. So anybody that wants to take these wild...
GRACE: OK...
NEJAME: ... horrifically...
GRACE: I asked you about the chloroform.
NEJAME: They`re wrong.
GRACE: I think that was a no. Everybody, with me, Mark Nejame, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony.
Quickly, we are asking for your prayers for attorney Sandy Schiff in the fight of a lifetime against leukemia. I`ve got some good news to report. Her bone marrow transplant a success. She is now producing red blood cells, indicators she is engrafted. She has another bone marrow test set. Sandy, please stay strong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: During that period of time, did you have any communication with the child?
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you inquire?
CINDY ANTHONY: Every day. Every time I spoke with Casey, I asked if I could speak with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you were denied that opportunity?
CINDY ANTHONY: I didn`t feel like I was being denied anything. It was an inopportunity, or there -- that`s all I can say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With us tonight, the criminal defense attorney now working for George and Cindy Anthony, Mark Nejame.
We are taking your calls. Shirley in Iowa. Hi, Shirley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to say your babies are beautiful and I (INAUDIBLE) pictures.
GRACE: I`ve got to tell you something. Number one, thank you. And Number two, since we started covering this case, all during the night, I`m in there just checking on them and just -- it is`s an effect on a lot of people. What is your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, us, too. Is there any way the mother can be charged, since she is the one that washed the jeans in the back of the trunk?
GRACE: Highly doubtful. You would have to show intent, and we`ll answer the question when we get back. We are taking your calls live, everyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you called in and said it smells like a dead body in my daughter`s car, why did you say that for because you know there was a dead body in there.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, I don`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have evidence that we have not yet made public that leads our investigators to believe that Caylee is deceased.
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no new development.
Absolutely, she knows who has her. I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home. She`s leading me to a place but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in, that something may happen to Caylee.
My daughter may have some mistruths out there or half truths, but she is not a murderer.
There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots it stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy?
CINDY ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our house. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.
She is not dead.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Everything she said doesn`t make any sense.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know. I`m not in Casey`s head. I`m not a psychiatrist. I thought I was here today to discuss Caylee, not to defend my -- what my daughter is doing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. With us tonight, the criminal defense attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. Right now charges expected to be handed down against mom, Casey, at any moment. This would require a re-arrest back behind bars.
Also, the defense team, unusual strategy, insisting that all forensic testing be stopped in the investigation in the search for little Caylee. This while a $1.5 million offer is on the table for basically a tell-all of Casey Anthony`s story.
We are taking your calls live.
I want to go out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell me about this claim, this motion the defense has filed to stop all the forensic scientific testing on the evidence?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, well, her attorney, Jose Baez, basically wants the forensic testing to stop because he says he`s not getting to have a say of who`s testing it and where it`s tested.
He is worried that it`s not a controlled environment and that, you know, some of the findings might be skewed.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Mark Nejame, the defense attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alex Sanchez out of New York.
Renee Rockwell, why should he have a say?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because, Nancy, he ought to have a chance to have a crack at it himself.
GRACE: Well, he should have a say where it`s tested?
ROCKWELL: But maybe he could have somebody there at the place and they may not give him access to the testing.
GRACE: Well, Alex Sanchez, he absolutely can ask for his expert to be there during the testing. But to ask for all testing to halt is ridiculous.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, the reality is that motion is doomed to fail because this is not proper protocol. The protocol is that the items get tested and if she`s indicted, then she can hire an expert to examine those items herself and that is the proper protocol.
To take a preemptive strike like this is simply inappropriate at this stage.
GRACE: To Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, joining us tonight in our Manhattan studios, isn`t this putting the cart before the horse? I mean, if you ask Baez over and over, they say she`s only charged with child neglect.
So why are they gearing up for a murder trial?
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not part of that defense team, couldn`t tell you.
GRACE: Wise answer.
What about it, Renee Rockwell?
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you always have to prepare for the worst.
GRACE: Aha. OK. That`s the best you got. Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: Well, listen -- the defense attorney is doing what he can to make some type of a defense for his client. But there are times not to make motion and there are times to make them. He`s a little bit too early in the proceedings right now to make that motion.
GRACE: He certainly is. And the motion has no merit. He`s going to be laughed out of court to stop the state from testing its evidence?
I want to go back to the question from Shirley in Iowa. I`m going to direct this to Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. The washing of the pants which clearly smelled like the car -- by your clients` admission, the car smelled like a dead body.
Many people have suggested that your client did that knowingly as if she intended to get rid of evidence. I have a problem with that theory, but I`d like to hear your response.
NEJAME: No, I agree with you completely. There`s beyond problems with the theory. Not only do you and I have problems with that theory but so does the -- do all the police detectives in the Orange County Sheriff`s Department.
So people that, you know, want to hide behind the anonymity and accusations on blogs and other places without any evidence, I don`t think we should go ahead and justify their speculation with any more comments.
GRACE: Let`s go to Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us in our New York studios.
Caryn, the reality is that when she opened the car, it was out of gas there at the check cashing place. She said it smelled like a dead body. The clothing of Casey Anthony, which could have been forensic evidence for the state -- pants and shoes -- also smelled the same, wreaking of human decomposition. Cindy Anthony washed the pants.
I suspect, and I would suggest that at that time she was in such a maelstrom of emotions about her granddaughter being missing and many, many other issues, that she didn`t consider her daughter`s clothes to be forensic evidence.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, I would suspect she didn`t consider anything to be forensic evidence. She couldn`t have been thinking that clearly. Obviously, she was in shock.
GRACE: They`re still in denial. So why would she have thought it then?
STARK: The denial is a good point because the denial is a suspension of belief. And when people are in shock, they can`t tell the difference between right or wrong. They`re not emotionally prepared to accept what`s going on.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Dana in Florida. Hi, Dana.
DANA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
DANA: I just have a quick question. Now the chloroform that they said they got out the air samples and the smell of the dead body and the chloroform that was linked to the computer, wouldn`t that be enough to keep her in jail without bond?
GRACE: They would have to charge her, Dana in Florida, with murder if they want to no bond or higher bond. And it`s my belief at this juncture they`re waiting to get more evidence for a rock solid case of murder.
Why? Because, Dana in Florida, once the state formally charges, once they file an indictment, the defense for Casey Anthony can be in slap mistake with a speedy trial demand, making them go forward with a trial in three to six to nine months depending on the jurisdiction.
So when they finally charge her, they better be ready to go to trial in about two months.
Agree or disagree, Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: Absolutely agree with you on this point, Nancy. Besides, what`s the rush? She`s not going anywhere. Everyone knows her whereabouts, so there`s no need to rush and go to trial at this juncture. Wait until all the evidence is in.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- weigh in, Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, they said there`s a lot of evidence that has not been made public. And I think there`s a lot that we don`t know yet in reference to this evidence.
You know -- and also, the chain of custody, they`re keeping very, very close eye on all of the evidence that they already have. The evidence custodian for Orange County, he`s making sure -- he or she is making sure the T`s are crossed and all the I`s are dotted and the chain of custody is very, very important. And they`re maintaining that chain.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a famed forensic scientist joining us -- Kobe, you and I both agree that by now police do have the response, the results on the DNA tests out of the back of the trunk.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes, yes, Nancy. Not only do I think they have the DNA results. I think they have completed all of the other physical evidence testing. They`re just not making it public as yet for whatever strategic reasons they`ve got.
GRACE: Kobe, what else could they hope to gain by waiting to find a body?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I think a body can reveal a great deal depending upon its state. That`s what an autopsy is all about -- determining cause of death, manner of death, and approximate time of death.
So there are also may be clothing on the body that will have trace evidence. There`s a lot more potential evidence out there. They could be waiting for that.
GRACE: To Mark Williams, WNDB, what about this $1.5 million offer? Is that legitimate? What is it for? A pay-per-view interview, like a boxing match?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: No, Nancy, the last thing that we heard was the thing that you heard that they had an offer for a $1.5 million book, multimedia deal when it came right down to it.
Lawyer Jose Baez.
GRACE: Last time I paid for a pay-per-view was when Holyfield got his ear bitten off and, you know, that took about three minutes. I`m not doing it again.
WILLIAMS: I understand where you`re coming from. But right now Jose Baez says they`re taking all things into consideration. They have not struck up a deal or anything else.
GRACE: $1.5 million.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRACE: I`m going to go. When we get back from this break -- to George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney, Mark Nejame is with us. $1.5 million. His clients have been bailing out Casey Anthony for plenty of years.
Quick break. We`ll be back with Mr. Nejame.
But as we go to break, a special happy birthday to one of the sweetest people I know with a heart of an angel, Donna Abrams.
Happy birthday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there is a dead body in the car.
There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There was an overpowering smell of death.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence it has been returned to us regarding the vehicle, preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.
CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.
CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that are similar in length and color to that of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car and that she`s dead. Certainly it`s information we take very seriously.
GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: With us the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. Mark Nejame is with us, joining us in our Manhattan studios.
Sir, how are your clients dealing with Casey Anthony being in their home? They`re not allowed to speak to her about the case, correct?
NEJAME: They`re not supposed to be speaking about the case. And we have been, again, asked and I really wish I could say more but I have to respect, as I know you will, Orange County`s sheriff`s office request not to get into any of that.
GRACE: Have they tried before they got this directive from police to make her come clean? To make her tell what happened?
NEJAME: Everything humanly imaginable. People forget, Nancy, that it was Cindy`s call that initiated this entire investigation.
GRACE: And it was Cindy Anthony that went looking for her and dug her up at her boyfriend`s place. Went over there and found her along with Amy Huizinga and confronted her and brought her home, and started the search for Caylee.
I have not forgotten that.
NEJAME: Exactly. And so many people have. The fact of the matter is, is that what the focus seems to be is, why are these people not admitting what other people -- some other people believe?
Well, how can anybody process this? You lose your granddaughter, your beloved granddaughter. Your daughter is looking at who knows how much time in prison. Your family implodes in front of you. Hard enough under the best of circumstances, if there were any, to process this.
Now how do you work through this when you have threats and you have protesters and you`re being barraged by the media and microphones hanging in your window from the moment you wake up and lights flash in your face from the moment you go to bed?
GRACE: Speaking of microphones .
NEJAME: How? Give them the opportunity.
GRACE: . do your clients believe their home is bugged or their phones are tapped?
NEJAME: It doesn`t make any difference to them. They`ve got nothing to.
GRACE: Is that why Casey Anthony spends the whole day, kicked back at her lawyer`s office?
NEJAME: You got to ask them because my clients have got nothing to.
GRACE: I know you`re not part of that. OK.
NEJAME: But.
GRACE: Save your breath.
NEJAME: But we don`t care. We don`t care because they`ve got nothing to hide.
GRACE: OK. You`re not part of it.
NEJAME: About what they`ve got to say.
GRACE: And you don`t care.
Alexis Weed, attorney who has researched possible profits for Casey Anthony, what can you tell me about the possibility of a $1.5 million deal?
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE STAFFER ATTORNEY, RESEARCHED POSSIBLE PROFITS FOR CASEY: Well, Nancy, if Casey Anthony did enter some sort of a deal, all of the profits in whether she could keep them would turn on whether she was actually convicted of a felony.
Florida has a statute that prohibits convicted felons from keeping proceeds derived from accounts of a crime for which they are convicted.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Morgan in California. Hi, Morgan.
MORGAN, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: Hi there.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
MORGAN: Well, I`ve been wondering since yesterday when you had the roommate on, he had mentioned that Casey had brought Caylee to the apartment on numerous occasions. And he even recalls things that she had said.
Now I`m wondering if anybody had bothered asking him when did Casey stop bringing Caylee to that apartment. Was there a timeline.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, do you recall the last time he saw her?
PETRIMOULX: I don`t remember the exact date but, you know, he`s not the only friend. We`ve also heard from another friend that lived with them at the time. And they both expressed that she would be over there all the time and then she just kind of -- you know, stopped coming over at all.
And you know, Casey always had some kind of excuse that where -- she was either at Universal Studios or with a nanny or at the beach. So they just kind of said that, you know, Casey stopped bringing Caylee over.
GRACE: You are right, Drew. And they said it made perfect sense and she would always have this elaborate story, Mark Williams.
WILLIAMS: Yes. She always had a story of some sort. And, you know, that just goes back to she`s -- you know, this Zenaida Gonzalez who apparently doesn`t exist. And that`s pretty much it, because nobody saw Caylee after this 15th or 16th of June.
GRACE: Natisha Lance, do you recall the last time the roommate saw little Caylee?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It was actually on June 2nd, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes.
LANCE: And that`s the last time the roommate, as well as Tony, saw Caylee.
GRACE: So shortly before she definitely went missing on June 16th.
To Mark Nejame, the attorney for the Anthonys, did your clients ever meet, talk to, spot, see, drive by, this Zenaida Gonzalez person?
NEJAME: I sure wish you`d stop asking about the case. You know I`m not allowed to answer it. And I`ll go anywhere but I can`t get into that.
GRACE: Just yes or no. One syllable.
NEJAME: No, no, no. The answer is improper.
GRACE: Can you just shake your head?
NEJAME: Improper.
GRACE: Out to the line, Sue in California. Hi, Sue.
SUE, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: Yes, I`m just wondering if it`s possible that Casey Anthony was using the chloroform to drug her child to -- like a baby sitter and.
GRACE: What about that theory, Mike Brooks? I`ve heard that floated.
BROOKS: That`s one of the new theories that`s out there. That possibly she could have used the chloroform to knock the baby out so she could go out and party, do whatever else she usually does, and maybe she had overdosed.
That, you know -- early on we`re talking about an accident.
GRACE: Well.
BROOKS: . possibly with the pool. Now they`re talking about a possible accidental overdose with the chloroform or an intentional overdose.
GRACE: To the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Alex Sanchez.
Renee, even if that were the scenario, it would still be murder one.
ROCKWELL: Absolutely, Nancy, because it`s an aggravated assault and she accidentally killed a baby, murder one.
GRACE: Alex?
SANCHEZ: I disagree. I think if she accidentally killed the child it`d be -- may qualify as manslaughter.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa. But that`s an agg assault. You can`t put chloroform on someone and claim it`s an accident?
SANCHEZ: You can`t, but it wasn`t for the intention of trying to hurt the child. The intent is try to put the child to sleep.
GRACE: That`s just like you pull a gun on me to scare me.
ROCKWELL: Alex, Alex.
GRACE: And whoops, it goes off.
SANCHEZ: You`re right. And you know what? That may result in a lesser charge.
ROCKWELL: No, but Alex, if you`re putting somebody to sleep and they go to sleep forever, that`s murder.
SANCHEZ: Well, I disagree with that analysis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Mike Brooks, apparently, Casey Anthony about to be rearrested on fraud charges. Is that part of the police strategy to a revolving door?
BROOKS: You know, it seems like there is a revolving door there, Nancy, with Orange County sheriffs. But I don`t think it`s part of the strategy. I think they would rather have her in jail, keep her in jail, to put some pressure on her.
But having her come in, then having her bonded right back out, don`t put any pressure on her at all.
GRACE: None, she`s just kicking back watching HBO.
BROOKS: That`s it.
GRACE: . and cable at her lawyer`s office.
To Dr. Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, we cannot ignore the fact of the flooding in the Florida area. How will that affect anything they find?
KOBILINSKY: Well, if anything -- certainly complicates the issue. Immersion in water will slow down decomposition. What the flooding will do will make it more difficult to find a body if it`s there. Certainly complicates the search.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, do you believe the Anthony home is tapped?
BROOKS: Absolutely. I believe that there is a title three wiretap on their phone. They probably know every key stroke she`s making, every cell call that`s made to and from that house. As part of an investigative strategy, that would be something I definitely would have done and they`re probably doing it.
GRACE: And very quickly, Caryn Stark, any hopes, psychologically, that she will break down and tell the truth?
STARK: I doubt it. I doubt it. She doesn`t have real emotions, Nancy, no. She won`t do it.
GRACE: Everybody let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jeremiah McNeal, 23, Norfolk, Virginia, killed, Iraq on a second tour. Loved basketball, eating at Golden Coral with his little boy, a computer geek, so devoted to his faith. Fellow soldiers called him preacher man.
He leaves behind his parents, grieving parents, three siblings, widow Nikita, 4-year-old son, Jordien.
Jeremiah McNeal, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight happy birthday to super shrink Caryn Stark. She`s finally 21.
Happy birthday.
And a special good night from friend of the show, Jacobi Hudson, a second year law student at John Marshall, and good night from David Schumer. He`s helping to raise funds in the fight against pancreatic and liver cancer in memory of his mother Ellen.
The Ellen Schumer Pancreatic and Liver Cancer Fund`s golf tournament, October 13th at Suburban Country Club, Baltimore. For info go to www.ummsfoundation.org/ellenschumerfund.
Everyone, thank you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
