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Nancy Grace
10 More Charges Filed Against Missing Florida Toddler`s Mom
Aired September 11, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 12 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, even more criminal charges handed down against mom, Casey, 10 felony counts alleging multiple theft and fraud. It could land mom, Casey, 50 years behind bars. Charges piling up, arrest is imminent. Will she turn herself in? This as all formal searches are called off. Repeat, searches called off for little Caylee.
And now mom, Casey, caught in even more lies, this time about Caylee`s biological dad. Her stories get more and more bizarre. And in a stunning move, the defense team demands all testing -- all testing -- of scientific evidence in the Caylee investigation be stopped. The FBI discovers so much chloroform in mom, Casey`s, car trunk, even the air in the trunk was saturated. Evidence of human decomposition in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. All indicators are it was 3-year-old little Caylee.
Tonight, mom, Casey, still sits all day behind closed doors at her lawyer`s office, mulling a whopping $1.5 million offer for her story. And a Web site is in the works, a Web site to solicit money for mom, Casey`s, legal fund, not to fund a search for little Caylee. Tonight as mom, Casey`s, arrest is imminent, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony could be arrested at any moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state attorney`s office has just issued 10 formal charges against tot mom Casey Anthony for allegedly forging three checks belonging to a friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These checks came from her friend`s car, Amy Huizenga. Amy went on vacation to Puerto Rico, allowing Casey to use the car. And she allegedly took some checks. She`s passing this bad paper. Apparently, she has passed some additional bad checks to area business such as Winn Dixie, AT&T.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The theft and fraud charges Anthony now faces are all felonies and carry a maximum of 50 years in jail if she`s convicted on all counts. Meanwhile, reports from local media say that Anthony could face more charges related to the theft of the checks stolen from her friend in early July.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony could be busted at any moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK. So your daughter stole money from your car?
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, my car was stolen. We retrieved today. We found out where it was at, retrieved it. I`ve got that, and I`ve got affidavits from my banking account. I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Does it ever end with this woman? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New charges now being filed this morning against Casey Anthony, in trouble all over again for alleged check fraud. Still no sign of her missing 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell Local 6 that some time in the next few days, Casey will be arrested yet again on more check fraud charges, only this time, she`ll be taken into custody with much less fanfare than her previous arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three new charges claim Casey Anthony stole checks and money from a friend while that friend was out of town, and she did this during the time when Caylee was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are grand theft charges, fraud and forgery charges for the checks. And if she is convicted on these counts -- she`s facing 10 counts in all -- they`re punishable by up to five years in prison for each one. So she would be looking at 50 years, if that were to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. Mark, more charges? When will she be arrested?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, first off, those charges keep stacking up. Today, of course, we had those 10 charges, all felony charges, one count of grand theft, three counts of fraudulent use of personal identification, three counts of forgery by check, three counts of uttering a forged check -- 50 years in the slammer she could get, Nancy, on these charges, if convicted. Arrest any time. Jose Baez, her attorney, says he wants to be notified when the sheriff`s office goes to arrest her because he`d rather...
GRACE: Oh, really, Mark Williams?
WILLIAMS: Yes?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Pause! He wants her to turn herself in like last time? Hello? Last time, he sent a fax to the jail. The jailhouse, the sheriff`s office, gets thousands of faxes a day. You want to surrender somebody, you go over there -- I`ve been to the jail at midnight before when I had business to do as a lawyer.
WILLIAMS: Sure. Sure.
GRACE: When you have an issue, you go then. You don`t send a fax to sit in a stack until the next day. So what`s he doing about it?
WILLIAMS: Well, he says he wants to be notified before they arrest her. He doesn`t want another spectacle on live TV, which happened two weeks ago on this show.
GRACE: I hardly think her being arrested for bad checks and forgery is a spectacle. The spectacle is there`s a little girl missing, Mark Williams.
WILLIAMS: I agree, Nancy. I mean -- and that`s the primary thing. And what`s interesting, as you pointed out, is that this Web site -- another Web site`s being developed to pay for her defense fund instead of looking for little Caylee. What`s going on?
GRACE: Now, I`m getting a lot of conflicting reports, Mark Williams. These press releases keep being issued every day, and they actually conflict. The other day, one of the press releases, the people representing the defense law firm, says they`re creating a Web site. They are creating a Web site to solicit our money to help mom, Casey, Anthony. All right. Now they`re saying, No, no, no, no, no. They don`t have -- the defense doesn`t have anything to do with that. Well, who does?
WILLIAMS: Well, I got the same information you did, Nancy, and it appears that this PR firm that is working for Jose Baez is going put together this Web site. No idea when it`s going go live, but they`re searching for money right now any way they can.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, defense lawyer out of Atlanta -- no stranger to a courtroom -- Peter Odom and veteran trial lawyer Mickey Sherman in the New York jurisdiction, also author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"
All right. You know you`re in trouble, Eleanor, when you got to hire a PR firm.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You got that right, Nancy. I`m thinking, in my 17 years as a prosecutor, I have never dealt with a PR firm with a defendant. Isn`t that interesting?
GRACE: What about it, Mickey?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, not everyone is as media-savvy as we all are here. As we`ve seen...
GRACE: Speak for yourself.
(LAUGHTER)
SHERMAN: I know. As we`ve seen...
GRACE: I think it`s a bunch of bunk.
SHERMAN: Yes, but this guy has not been able...
GRACE: If I thought I was going to be...
SHERMAN: ... to deal with the media.
GRACE: ... charged with a crime, I would not be spending my money on a PR firm.
SHERMAN: I doubt they`re spending much money. I`ll bet the PR firm is doing it for next to nothing just for the publicity itself. But when you`ve got those satellite trucks staked outside your house for God knows how long -- these people can`t handle it, and they`ve reacted very badly to it. So it`s not that unwise a decision, frankly. It`s better than having all those family -- Jackson family spokespeople who came forward during the Jackson case.
GRACE: I hardly think, Mickey Sherman, that this case in any way compares to the Michael Jackson debacle. Peter Odom, have you ever dealt with a PR firm when you`re looking at a child neglect or a murder, a child murder case?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I haven`t, but I`ve never dealt with a case that has the unprecedented media attention of this case, and the defense would be foolish not to hire a media consultant. This jury pool is absolutely going to be infected unless they do something to correct that. So it was good move by them.
GRACE: Well, of course, Eleanor Dixon, hiring a PR firm at this juncture has nothing whatsoever to do with a future jury pool. And that jury pool can be cured by simply moving jurisdictions -- excuse me -- moving venues or rehabilitating the jurors by asking them if they can continue to be fair and impartial regardless of what they have heard on television.
DIXON: Exactly right, Nancy. And that`s the first thing you do in jury selection is see who can be fair and impartial and who`s heard of the case and if they can set that aside to listen to evidence.
GRACE: OK. Once again, we`re putting the cart before the horse. We`re talking about jury selection.
Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the Anthony home. What about the searches, Natisha? Why have the searches been called off? I do not accept that it`s because of flooding, at this point.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, I think the searches have been called off at this point, Nancy, because there`s a lack of tips, a lack of information coming in. Also, due to that flooding, police have not been able to search the areas that they want to search, and they are running out of information partly because Casey has not given them more information to go off of, and they don`t know where else to look.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what can they do? The searches today are called off. No searches.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s -- you know, Nancy, there`s not much they can do right now. All of the cards are in Casey Anthony`s hands. She holds the key to this case. She needs to cooperate, but she most likely and possibly never will.
GRACE: To California bounty hunter -- we are taking your calls -- Leonard Padilla. He was there in the home after her last release from behind bars. Right now, they are hunkering down, preparing for another arrest on additional charges. But what I don`t get00 we all know that mom, Casey Anthony, holds the key to where little Caylee is, dead or alive. What does the family do? You were in the home. What do they do? She just sits there at the dinner table and watches the 6:00 o`clock news? They act like nothing`s going on?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, Casey was spending a lot of time in her room. When Jose Baez, her attorney, would come over, he`d make sure that she wasn`t around the other people in the house. She was solitary in her room. And one day, when the FBI and some local officials came over to ask the Anthony family to take a lie detector test, Lee became agitated. We were sitting out in the RV. And at first, they agreed to, and then he came back out and said, No, we`re not going take lie detector tests at all.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait! First time hearing of this. I`ve asked you 50 times what goes on in the house, and suddenly, I`m hearing they asked the Anthonys to take a lie detector test and they did not do it?
PADILLA: That`s correct. We were sitting in the RV and we saw -- first, there was a child protective services individual that went in, and then later on, some law enforcement went in.
GRACE: Wait. Are you talking about George and Cindy Anthony...
PADILLA: Yes.
GRACE: ... were asked to take a polygraph and they declined?
PADILLA: At first, they agreed. And then when Lee went back in there, he came back out and told us that he told them, No, we`re not going to take lie detector tests...
GRACE: Why?
PADILLA: ... and neither was he. I don`t know. I told him that was the best way to get cleared by the FBI of any charges or anything like that that might be coming down the road. And he said, No, I don`t care if we`re not cleared. We`re not taking them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATE, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER ROOMMATE: Tony and I were playing video games, waiting for the all-star game to come on for the evening. And there was a knock at the door. Casey got up to answer the door. It was Amy. Amy told Casey that she needed to speak with her, so Casey and Amy stepped outside. They came back in the house. They were followed by Cindy Anthony back in.
Her mother said, Get your things and let`s go, and Casey replied, I`m not leaving. If you want to talk, let`s go outside and talk. Cindy seemed a little upset. The three of them then exited the apartment, and that was the last time that me or Tony have seen Casey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You were just hearing the roommate of mom, Casey Anthony, at the time just before and after her little girl went missing.
We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines. Donna in Texas. Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. I love your show, and I love you.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling in. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is in regards to Cindy Anthony stating when she called 911 that there was an odor of a dead body in the car.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last night, I seen a piece of tape that you played, and now she`s stating there was no odor in the car before it was towed. How does she know this, if she had no contact with the car until the towing company contacted them to come and pick it up?
GRACE: What about that, Mike Brooks?
BROOKS: I tell you, Nancy, who knows what to believe from Cindy Anthony. You know, then she said also, Oh, it was a bag of pizzas with maggots. You know, she`s a nurse. She knows what a decomposing body smells like. And her father was a former law enforcement officer. He knows it, also. You know, it`s just -- you don`t know what to believe from these people. They`re in serious denial, Nancy. And you know, where does it go from here with them?
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. What do you make of Leonard Padilla`s revelation that the Anthonys did not take a lie detector test when asked?
BROOKS: Well, what we`ve been saying from day one. If you want to clear yourself, go ahead, put yourself on the box with a good polygraph examiner. The FBI was more than willing to do it. And this is very, very surprising to me that they were going to go ahead and do it, and then they said, No, we`re not going to. What do they have to hide?
GRACE: Out to Marie in Florida. Hi, Marie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Miss Nancy. How are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, why do the parents of Casey Anthony feel it`s necessary for them to spend all that money on a criminal defense lawyer? Why do they need one? Are they guilty of something?
GRACE: You know, that is an interesting question. Let`s unleash the lawyers again, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman. Why do the grandparents have a criminal defense attorney? Mickey?
SHERMAN: Well, we just heard one person, Mr. Padilla, say they were asked to do a polygraph and they decided not to. I mean, they are obviously being accused of, if not committing crimes, at least acting inappropriately. You know, these days, you know, we...
GRACE: They haven`t been accused of anything.
SHERMAN: Oh, everyone is accusing them of covering this up and lying and doing all kinds of misdeeds. You know, we were all ticked off when the Ramsey family lawyered up real earlier in the game, and then years later, we find out they were totally innocent.
GRACE: No, a brand-new district attorney comes in and states that Patsy -- that the Ramseys are not responsible for the DNA found on the Ramsey crime scene. I hardly think that that is a total exoneration. But since you`re making comparisons, can we get away from that and go back to this case? As much as I know you want to rehash the Ramsey case.
SHERMAN: It`s not an admission of guilt to lawyer up early in the game or late in the game. And that`s what they`re doing. They`re trying to protect themselves.
GRACE: What about it, Eleanor?
DIXON: Well, use your common sense, everybody. Why are they getting a criminal defense lawyer? They obviously feel like their rights might be violated somehow or they might be charged with something down the line.
GRACE: Well, I spoke with him here last night, and he said it was to basically push to the forefront their plight and the plight of little Caylee. But he is a veteran criminal defense attorney.
Back out to the lines. Dawn in Washington. Hi, Dawn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have a question. I was wondering, if they do find Caylee`s remains and find out that she did do it, I was wondering, are they going ask for the death penalty?
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Has there been any such discussion?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, I think that we`re getting a little ahead of ourselves. There hasn`t been any discussion of that, but I`m sure that you could ask the lawyers on your panel. But I suppose that it could be a possibility, but there has to be a lot more evidence that comes in.
GRACE: So the answer is no, there`s been no discussion as of yet?
PIERCE: None as of yet.
GRACE: To Kathy in Minnesota. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I enjoy your program very much, and I think you`re doing a wonderful job.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... for this poor family.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. And I`m calling in reference to -- would she have to testify if this ever goes to court?
GRACE: Absolutely not. Under the 5th Amendment to our Constitution, you have the right not to incriminate yourself. You have the right to remain silent. And now the Miranda even reads, Anything you say will be held against you. In fact, Kathy in Minnesota, it cannot even be -- commented upon in opening or closing arguments that the defendant did not take the stand because that is perceived to be a comment on you exercising your constitutional rights. So she absolutely does have not to testify.
I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the Anthony home. Natisha, is it correct that these new charges could get her 50 years behind bars?
LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. She could get up to 50 years behind bars for these charges. And let`s not forget, she also has other charges that could come into play, too. There are still two outstanding checks that she wrote out of her friend, Amy Huizenga`s, account.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, does it ever end? I mean, we know she stole from her parents, ran up a huge credit card bill while little Caylee was missing. She went shopping. We know that. We know that she stole from her grandmother`s assisted living fund. OK, Grandmother, I guess, up in her 80s -- stole from her grandmother, a little old lady, literally, now stealing from a friend that loaned her her car, steals checks and goes and writes them all over creation?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I mean, it speaks to a larger pattern of anti-social behavior, reckless disregard for the safety of self and others, failure to honor financial obligations...
GRACE: Bethany, Bethany, Bethany!
MARSHALL: Yes?
GRACE: She`s stealing, according to these charges, from her own family. Doesn`t that wave a red flag right in front of your face? Bethany, you`re a shrink.
MARSHALL: Well, Nancy...
GRACE: She is victimizing her own mother, her mother that gave birth to her.
MARSHALL: Nancy...
GRACE: If she would do that to her, what would she do to Caylee?
MARSHALL: Well, I mean, you just answered the question. It is such a profound disorder of attachment, a disruption of social obligation and of conscience. I mean, when you think when a person doesn`t attach, they don`t have any empathy, any connection to the people around them. It doesn`t matter if they violate the rights of their child or they violate the rights of their own parents. It`s the same disorder any way you look at it. And you know, Nancy, Cindy and George are victims, too, just like little Caylee is a victim.
GRACE: I agree. I agree.
Everyone, tonight, there is a mother who`s desperate that needs your help finding her 5-year-old son, Giovanni Gonzalez. If you have info, take a look, please, call the Lynn, Massachusetts, police. He`s a 5-year-old little boy, 781-595-2000.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATE: She seemed like everything was normal. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face. You know, if there was laundry to be done, she would take care of that. You know, she would cook dinners sometimes in the evenings for us when we got home. I think one night, she made pasta for everyone.
GRACE: Did she ever mention over the pasta dinner that her 2-year-old girl was gone?
NATE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now, mom, Casey Anthony, spends her days sitting with her feet up in her lawyer`s office. I wonder if they`re watching any cable in there, Mike Brooks, maybe catching a little HBO re-runs?
BROOKS: Oh, I`m sure. I mean, if she has nothing to say, what are you doing for six hours...
GRACE: A day.
BROOKS: ... at your attorney`s office? A day.
GRACE: Six hours a day.
BROOKS: Six hours a day, Nancy, you know, just kind of over there, cooling her heels because she thinks that her house is probably bugged. Well, most likely, it is. You can`t blame law enforcement for that, to try to get some kind of information. But you know, what`s she talking about? Is she on the computer? You know, it`s just ridiculous, Nancy, that she spends six hours a day at her attorney`s office, and she still says nothing to law enforcement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not being funny with what I said. I`m sorry. And I really feel that most people would go through a lot more effort to look for a missing dog than Casey has made to go look for her missing daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRANDMOTHER: I`ve got affidavits for my banking account. I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Channel 9 has learned that an intense fight right before Casey left with Caylee in mid-June was over money that Casey had stolen from her own grandparents. Tension has been building over the theft.
GRANDMOTHER: I need to bring someone in to the police department. I have a 22-year-old person that has grand theft.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Relatives say Caylee was much more attached to her grandmother than she was to her own mother.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: She`s been my joy for the last three years. They needed some time to bond. Casey`s 22 years old. She told me that she wanted some space. She wanted to go to work and then she wanted to go take a little vacation and take Caylee with her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey and Caylee left and Cindy believes Casey kept Caylee out of touch just to punish her.
UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: She`s not telling you where her daughter is.
CINDY ANTHONY: Correct.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bonding? It looks like she was bonding with that stripper pole out at Fusion Bar. This is after little Casey allegedly went missing with the babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez. There`s her mom partying hearty.
I want to go back to bounty hunter from Sacramento, California, Leonard Padilla. He first put up the bond to get Casey Anthony out from behind bars. She since went back and got out. Tonight we are awaiting a re-arrest on additional charges.
Leonard, I`m a little stunned by something you just told me. Now, true, in the past I haven`t asked you the exact direct question to get this answer. I should know better, but please repeat for me what you just revealed regarding Cindy and George Anthony, the grandparents, being asked to give a polygraph.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED PUT CASEY ANTHONY BACK IN JAIL: We were sitting in the RV outside the house and FBI -- well, first of all, the Child Protective Services guy -- we didn`t know who he was, but afterwards we found out that`s who he was -- went in the house and then subsequently three or four individuals including, according to Lee, the FBI went in the house and asked the family to take polygraphs -- Cindy, the father, George, and Lee.
Lee came out and said that that`s what they had asked. He then immediately turned around and went back in and then about 20 minutes later he came back out and said no, we`re not going do that. We refused to take them.
And everybody commented on, well, you know, if you got nothing to hide, what`s the big deal? You know? The FBI is very proficient. A very good friend of mine, Jack Trimarco, from way back is a polygrapher.
GRACE: Right.
PADILLA: And.
GRACE: Yes.
PADILLA: And you know, you don`t make mistakes. They know when there`s a mistake made so there`s really nothing to fear, and it was very surprising and very odd to us that they would pass the opportunity up to be cleared by the FBI because that`s, in effect, what the FBI would do, would be clearing them.
So that was strange. But let me bring something here, Nancy. You had Nate on there last night.
GRACE: Right. Anthony`s roommate during the time Caylee went missing.
PADILLA: Correct. On Casey`s phone bill there`s a 24-hour period from the mid 28th -- midday on the 28th to midday on the 29th when her phone is either disconnected, turned off, no calls.
And that`s very strange for her because she makes from 25 to 50 calls a day. Nate might know where she was during the period of time from midday the 28th until midday the 29th.
GRACE: Mr. Padilla, do you have any idea why these searches have been called off? The searches for little Caylee, dead or alive?
PADILLA: Basically, my understanding is, in talking to some of the fellows that we were forwarding tips to, that there were no tips coming in that are making any sense.
GRACE: You mean tips regarding her being alive?
PADILLA: Dead.
GRACE: Anything. No tips whatsoever that make any sense.
PADILLA: No. No. No. No. No tips coming in that would place her anywhere dead or alive. That`s why.
GRACE: Got it.
PADILLA: . I`m reluctant to it -- to even -- I question that there`s any tips coming in that she`s been seen, you know, in different places. The other -- I think I heard.
GRACE: Well, I asked the defense attorney last night about that, he would not tell me where.
PADILLA: No.
GRACE: He said the police had asked him not to reveal that.
PADILLA: No, absolutely.
GRACE: Back out to the lines, Janet Texas, hi, Janet.
JANET, TEXAS RESIDENT: Nancy, thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
JANET: Since Casey has said that she feels like her daughter is close by, I`m wondering has the yard in the house been cleared because I know the cadaver dog had smelled something? And has the water bill of the grandparents been checked?
I`m wondering if at any time -- I`m sorry the pool had been drained and possibly the child could still be on the property somewhere and then they re-filled the pool. I`m thinking maybe end of the pool or something.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, there at the Anthony home, what do you know?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Could you repeat the question?
GRACE: Yes. Has the yard, the Anthonies yard, front and back, been cleared by the police, essentially is the question.
LANCE: Yes, it has, Nancy. The front and backyard have been searched numerous times, both have been cleared by police.
GRACE: And to famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky -- Kobe, isn`t it true that cadaver dogs are trained to smell, to detect, human remains even in water?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s true. I mean, the dog has amazing capabilities and these cadaver dogs are so highly trained, and I`ve heard over and over that they will not alert to animal remains, that they very specifically sense very specific chemicals that are synthesized as a result of human decomposition.
So, yes, they can smell these molecules that are just come out of the water, that evaporate and they can be detected by these dogs.
GRACE: And that`s in response to Janet in Texas question, because even for instance, a firedog, a firedog can smell accelerant under water. They have to be able to at the end of fire scene when water has been sprayed everywhere.
Same thing with cadaver dogs, they do detect human decomposition even under water. Translation: the pool would not have mattered.
To the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, and Mickey Sherman.
You know the defense attorney Baez keeps saying I don`t want to arrest her again on these new charges. I want her to turn herself in quietly. Last time he sent a fax to the jail. If you really want to arrange a surrender, Mickey Sherman, how do you do it, in a nutshell?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Nancy, I don`t see the problem with sending a fax. But the bottom line is he doesn`t want a perp walk, he doesn`t want a photo-op, so she can be paraded to the crowd again where everyone can photograph her.
GRACE: So is that how you communicate with the prosecution, with a fax? You don`t call them, Mickey? You`re saying that with the straight face.
SHERMAN: I would have generally called them, but I don`t think there`s anything inappropriate with the fax.
GRACE: Repeat: have you done it.
SHERMAN: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: . with a fax?
SHERMAN: He can put it on Facebook. What`s the difference?
GRACE: Yes, no, have you?
SHERMAN: Have I?
GRACE: Yes.
SHERMAN: I don`t think so.
GRACE: OK.
SHERMAN: But I don`t think it`s (INAUDIBLE).
GRACE: So you can`t even say yes or no.
Peter Odom, do you want to clarify?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- you know, I probably would have called the prosecutors, called the police and arranged the arrest so there wasn`t such a spectacle. Maybe he could have handled it and maybe he learned something from the experience, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, at this juncture, I think I would want a lawyer and a PR firm that they weren`t -- I wasn`t the test, Eleanor. I wasn`t the first try.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: No, you`re right, Nancy. She should just go over to the jail, turn herself in and be done with it like a lot of other people do.
GRACE: Any chance, Bethany Marshall, that she would turn herself in on these new charges?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I don`t think so, and let`s take a look at her behavior after her daughter went missing. She was on the stripper pole dancing, at her boyfriend`s house, spending the night with him, cooking pasta, watching cable TV for the love of a man.
And what is she doing all day now?
GRACE: You know, Bethany -- Bethany.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: In the commercial break, this case makes me think of my own twins just incessantly, thinking about little Lucy had a little mosquito bite right here that wouldn`t go away, and I keep thinking what can I do to fix it?
I can`t imagine sitting through a pasta dinner that I cooked when I couldn`t find Lucy. I can`t even imagine it.
MARSHALL: It shows you how corrupt her conscience is and how unable she is to attach to her own daughter. So think about it. She`s sitting in Jose Baez`s office all day long.
How do you think someone this disturbed is translating or interpreting that experience? In her mind she might even be on the endless date. This could be a very gratifying experience. Now she`s away from her daughter. She doesn`t have child care responsibilities. She gets to be a yackity jack and tell her story all day long.
For someone like that that is much more gratifying than the love of her own child, so I think this whole thing works against her telling the truth rather than for it.
GRACE: And I`ll tell you who is suffering and that`s the grandparents.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: This child became their joy for all of these years, and I think that they are coping with this daughter the best that they can.
Everyone, quick break, but tonight, a miracle. Senior citizen John (INAUDIBLE) steps outside and finds a newborn baby girl in a tote bag. She`s just hours old. She only weighs about six pounds. She has curly dark hair. She`s either African-American or Hispanic.
If you have information please help. Call the Newton, Massachusetts police. You could do it anonymously. 617-796-2121.
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UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A child has been left on my doorstep.
UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: A baby?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: It`s a baby, yes. There was this bassinet with a child in it and a little note.
UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: And what does the note say?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: The note says please take good care of this child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(NEWSBREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Trespassing continues to be an issue between the Anthonies and the protesters out here on Hope Spring Drive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you say it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did you come from?
PADILLA: The safety situation out there with the security problems that we`re having is unbearable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to slap her and the parents.
PADILLA: I don`t want her to get hurt. I don`t want her parents to get hurt. The first day that the Tennessee results came out it started building momentum. It`s just going to erupt.
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GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony caught in an elaborate web of lies and now another lie emerges regarding the bio-dad of little Caylee.
First of all, we heard the dad`s name was Brad or Brandon. Then we heard it was a guy in Orlando on vacation, back over Thanksgiving, 2004, went home to Tennessee. Then we heard someone named Jesse was the father who`s in a car crash.
Now we learn that the story`s become more elaborate. She`s told other people he died in a car crash on the way to Caylee`s birthday party. OK.
Out to Nikki Pierce, who`s the biological father? You cannot tell me that Casey Anthony turned up pregnant and her parents never said who is the father?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I`m sure they did, but we still don`t know for sure. Investigators seem to be satisfied with the story that Caylee`s father has passed away, but we`re not entirely sure about that.
She did say -- Cindy did say at one point she thought that the father was Jesse Grund who was the ex-boyfriend, who was an Orlando police officer. Then she said she didn`t think that.
GRACE: He is alive.
PIERCE: Who is alive. And then there was a different Jesse who was actually a nickname for Jesus Ortiz.
GRACE: Jesus Ortiz. Yes. We had his lawyer on the show. They denied the whole thing.
PIERCE: Yes, that`s true.
GRACE: But didn`t he go to high school with Casey Anthony?
PIERCE: He did go to high school with Casey. They were on each other`s MySpace pages. Clearly, they knew each other, but the extent to how much they knew each other is unclear, and also he was in that fatal car crash in May, I believe it was, and Caylee`s birthday is in August.
GRACE: That doesn`t check out.
PIERCE: So if, in fact, he`s the father, it doesn`t check out.
GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB, what do we know?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Apparently she continues -- Casey continues to spin that web of lies. And just to back up what Nikki had to say was she`s been telling folks that Jesse Ortiz died -- going to this -- to Caylee`s birthday party in May of `07, but, of course, as we all know her birthday is in early August.
So, you know, that never panned out. Again, the web of lies continues.
GRACE: He must have been swinging low on a sweet chariot from heaven on his way to that birthday party because he had died several months before.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
GRACE: Bethany Marshall, very quickly, I know this is going to be very difficult for you to shrink long distance, but to continue this elaborate web of lies just embellishing and embellishing who the bio-dad is, why?
MARSHALL: Well, from the investigator`s perspective I was learning from this.
GRACE: Why not make it Superman? That`s right. He had on a blue tie with the red tape.
MARSHALL: Right. Well, she likes the sensationalism and the drama and the sympathy for others, but you know the phrase neurotics build castles in the skies, psychotics live in them? Almost anyone could be compelled to tell a small lie to spare someone else`s feelings or their own.
GRACE: True.
MARSHALL: But the more disturbed the person is the more they inhabit the lie, they live in it, it takes on a life of its own and it`s more compelling than anything else even the love of a child or real human interactions with other people.
GRACE: To famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky -- Kobe, you and I both agree they know the results of those DNA tests of the stains in the back of the car, and of the hair, they know it. They`re just not releasing it, right?
KOBILINSKY: I think absolutely correct. More than enough time has elapsed since they began testing to get all of their result, and again, I can only think that there`s some kind of legal strategy that is preventing them from making their results public.
Maybe they just don`t want to alert the defense, get the defense experts raring to go.
GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.
To Eleanor Dixon, the defense has filed a stunning motion to stop, halt all forensic testing on the state`s evidence. They are claiming that the state workers over at the crime lab, the prosecution and the police, do not want unbiased tests. They want biased tests and all testings got to be stopped.
DIXON: Isn`t that crazy, Nancy? I call it a bogus defense motion because there`s absolutely nothing to suggest that the state crime lab in Florida is doing anything untoward or not handling the evidence correctly.
GRACE: And isn`t it true, Peter Odom, to be careful what you ask for you may surely get it, if they get their own expert in there for the testing and they supervise or watch the lab testing, then they`ll be precluded at trial from claiming the testing was tainted.
It`s a sloppy lab, it was contaminated. It was about procedure because their experts would have been there.
ODOM: Possibly, but where I take issue with you, Nancy, is this: this is not a stunning or an unprecedented motion. This is a necessary motion. The defense knows that some of the most damning evidence in this case is the forensic evidence.
It`s the only reliable evidence given all the lies that both Casey and the parents have told. They want to make sure that if the testing is being done that it`s done correctly, that it`s being done fairly.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: Why should anyone have an objection to that, Nancy?
GRACE: Peter, Peter, yes or no. Have you ever seen a defense motion to stop forensic testing?
ODOM: I have not, but they also know.
GRACE: OK. You just said it`s not unusual, but you`ve never seen it in all of your years in practice.
ODOM: They are asking that the.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: . testing be stopped so that they don`t destroy the samples and I`ve seen many such motions. Yes.
GRACE: Mickey.
ODOM: And sometimes they`re granted.
GRACE: Either you`ve seen it or you haven`t.
Mickey, have you ever seen a defense motion to stop all testing?
SHERMAN: I have filed motion to stop the testing until and unless we can have our own expert there. And you`re right, Nancy. It is a conundrum because it does put us in a bad situation and the defense.
GRACE: And then what if the expert agrees with the state? The state can call your expert.
SHERMAN: That`s right. That`s a risky one. But you know, unfortunately.
GRACE: Then you`re really up the creek without a paddle.
SHERMAN: Yes. But, you know what, we have to testify defensively, otherwise, we`re criticized by the client for not taking every step to ensure that testing was done properly.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do see how the family is breaking down because of the protesters and they`re broken down enough.
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GRACE: Tonight the seven-year mark of the September 11th. We remember nearly 3,000 people who lost their lives on that attack against America.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My dad died on 9/11 but he is not gone. Just look at each of our faces and you will see him shine through us every day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, daddy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Milagros Hromada.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marian R. Hrycak
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stephen Huczko, Jr.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kris Robert Hughes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paul Rexford Hughes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my father, Carl Martin (INAUDIBLE). Even though he is not here today, he will always be in my heart and I`m proud to know that I was the apple of his eye and his little princess.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am proud to have read on the behalf of the citizens of Honduras.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When ever we parted, Papi would say, (speaking in foreign language), and this morning, I want to say the same thing to my Papi. I love you and go with God.
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GRACE: Let`s remember Army Sergeant Richard Vaughn, 22, San Diego, killed, Iraq, on a second tour. Cheerful, smiling, comes from a family of military servants. Loved football and wrestling. Leaves behind parents James and Jenny, brother Clifford, widow Michelle, who`s due to deliver their first child in December.
Richard Vaughn, American hero.
And tonight a special good night, the number one fan, Claire Miller at LSU. And good night from Lawrenceville, friend of the show, Chris Brown.
Thank you to all of our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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