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Nancy Grace
Bounty Hunter Thinks Casey Anthony had an Accomplice
Aired September 17, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 13 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom, Casey, walks free out of jail after a third arrest. And a stunning theory emerges. Did mom, Casey Anthony, a person of interest in Caylee`s disappearance, have an accomplice? Sources say yes.
And tonight, more bombshell audiotapes released of mom, Casey`s, interrogation by police just after little Caylee reported missing -- lie after lie, her refusal to cooperate, even laughing at times, offering no clues to her own little girl`s whereabouts. We hear her lies about the nanny, about the cell phone, about her so-called search for Caylee.
And tonight: Did mom, Casey, have romances with more than two cops? How will that compromise the case? The investigation leads detectives out of state, this as grandmother, Cindy Anthony, goes on Spanish TV, insisting Caylee is alive and likely in Texas, Puerto Rico or in Mexico. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. A bounty hunter who initially helped get tot mom, Casey Anthony, out of jail says he has a theory that Casey Anthony needed help in disposing of her daughter`s body. Leonard Padilla believes that Casey Anthony had an accomplice and needed someone to confide in and help her. Anthony remains free on bond as police continue to release more evidence, including the audio of two interviews between police and Casey Anthony stretching over 90 minutes.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you`ve told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you`ve told us is a lie, every single thing. And you can`t...
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Not everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly -- over and over and over again, we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us. You`re telling us that you lied to us. You`re telling us you`re giving us misinformation. Everything you`re telling us. OK? This needs to end.
CASEY ANTHONY: The truthful thing...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This needs to end.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... is I have not seen my daughter. The last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. You need...
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, something happened to Caylee. We`re not going to discuss where the last time you saw her -- I`m guessing something bad happened to her some time ago, and you haven`t seen her. So that part is true, if you say you haven`t seen her, because she`s somewhere else right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s with someone else.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. We are taking it apart, line by line. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More new details emerge in the case of missing 3- year-old Caylee Anthony. Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, who had previously assisted in getting Casey Anthony out of jail, now has a new theory and believes that an accomplice was possibly helping tot mom, Casey Anthony. Padilla says that it is his belief that Anthony need someone to confide in and tell what really happened and that this person someone helped Anthony cover up what happened to little Caylee Marie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to stop this lie. Your mother has called me countless times today, OK? And that`s why my phone keeps going off -- countless times because your mother knows. Your father knows. Everyone around you knows that you have lied completely and absolutely from the get- go. Everyone knows. Why you`re not coming out with it and why you`re not telling us the truth, no one has an answer to. The only person that has an answer to that is you. And this is what we`re trying to implore upon you. You need to tell us the truth about what happened to Caylee. It`s not that she`s with someone and you didn`t call...
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not the truth.
CASEY ANTHONY: It is the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not the truth. You need to tell...
CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s not the truth. We can`t get past that unless you go ahead and tell us the truth.
CASEY ANTHONY: There`s nothing to get past because that is the truth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what`s the latest?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, the latest, as you`ve been mentioning, is that -- this new theory coming from someone very close to the investigation, someone who actually bonded Casey out of jail. Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla says that she would have needed an accomplice to dispose of little Caylee`s body.
We`ve also seen a quote from her friend, Christina, that said that Casey is the type of person that would be able to connive a friend into helping her out. There`s also been theories that Casey dumped the body in one of our many alligator-infested lakes, specifically Lake Jessup (ph). Now, investigators say they haven`t searched there as of yet, but this is one of our most alligator-infested lakes. And I can tell you, just driving over it, you see many alligators swimming out there every time you drive by.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Stunning theory develops. Did Casey Anthony have help, an accomplice, in the disappearance of little Caylee?
Out to the lines. Susan in California. Hi, Susan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your program.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that there`s been discussion about whether or not Casey Anthony should have a lie detector test and what that might reveal. But I was wondering if she couldn`t fool a lie detector test because she lies with such facility.
GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question. And tonight we have with us Jack Trimarco. He is a former FBI polygrapher, the chief of the LA bureau and polygraph for the FBI. Jack, thank you for being with us again. Can you beat a polygraph?
JACK TRIMARCO, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: The short answer to that, Nancy, is no. People can be great liars externally, but you have to remember what a polygraph is measuring is physiological response, deviation from your physiology. Things change internally when a person decides to tell a lie, and that can`t be masked and it can`t be controlled.
GRACE: Are you talking about heartbeat, perspiration, what, body temperature?
TRIMARCO: I`m talking about respiratory cycle. When we decide to tell a lie, our breathing changes in a predictable way. We sweat instantly, and our pulse rate might change. But more importantly, blood pressure goes up and comes down, all within a five, six, maybe even a seven-second window.
GRACE: Tonight with us, bounty hunter from California Leonard Padilla. Your theory is there is an accomplice. That theory is shared not only by you but one of Caylee`s -- by one of Casey -- mom, Casey Anthony`s, very best friends. What`s your theory, and why?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, the situation is, she ran out of gas at the checking cashing store on the 26th. And there was a tremendous amount of communication on her phone on the evening of the 26th and also on the 27th, when she called her boyfriend to come pick her up, that the car had run out of gas. And it goes on into the 28th and then it stops. It just stops. No communication with hardly anybody. And the car naturally got towed off on the 30th.
So there had to be somebody giving her a hand at that time because if you`re dealing with a body in a garbage bag, it`s, like -- you know, it`s an awful thing to say, but if you talk to a coroner or somebody that`s handled cadavers, they`ll tell you it`s like having 30 pounds of stew in a garbage bag. And if you have a bone breakthrough, it`ll just literally cover the trunk of the car with fluids. So you basically have to have somebody with you to help you keep somewhat your composure and also to get it over into the dumpster.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist. Would that explain evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of mom, Casey Anthony`s, car?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Nancy, let me just set the record straight. Thirty pounds of feathers or 30 pounds of lead is still 30 pounds. What they call dead weight is still the weight, living or dead. Now, the answer to your question is, there may be some indicators, looking at physical evidence, indicators of decomposition which would support the theory that there was a dead body in that trunk. That`s really the issue. Are the tests reliable? Are they complete? Are there other explanations for finding these things? That`s what we have to focus on.
GRACE: Back to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. You keep talking about the phone records. Have you seen them?
PADILLA: Yes, we -- we have a complete set of her phone records that go from around the 10th of June all the way out to the end of July.
GRACE: Where did you get them?
PADILLA: We got them from Lee, her brother.
GRACE: OK. Mr. Padilla, in the sworn search warrant, it states point blank the so-called phone call that mom, Casey Anthony, got from nanny Zenaida Gonzalez, where she put little Caylee on the phone right before they hung up -- did that phone call come in?
PADILLA: No, no. There`s absolutely no record of any such phone call. And we`ve gone over and over the phone bill, and it`s just not there. There is no...
GRACE: So you have the phone records right now. You`ve got them.
PADILLA: On me. No, I don`t have them with me.
GRACE: At your office. At your office.
PADILLA: I`ve got them at my office, yes.
GRACE: What else did you learn from the phone records?
PADILLA: Well, that she`s constantly on the phone, constantly, constantly, constantly. The night of the 15th, when we believe she had a big blow-up with the family because her mom had come back from the Father`s Day and she`d found out that she stole money from the grandparents -- I believe at that time is when she left the house, not the following day on the 16th. And that is because the phone calls and the pattern of phone calls is such that it doesn`t seem like she was making them out of the house, although the towers that cover the house would also cover a hotel where she might have been spotted.
GRACE: Well, if she were in the house, she wouldn`t be talking to her mother on the cell phone, anyway.
PADILLA: Well, no, she wasn`t talking to her mother. She was talking to her boyfriend and other people.
GRACE: Oh, I see. OK. So you think she may have been in the house at that time?
PADILLA: She might have been. But I think shortly afterwards, she left, which would be in conflict somewhat with...
GRACE: OK.
PADILLA: ... you know, her having left on the 16th.
GRACE: Did you see any evidence in these phone records of phone calls from or to a nanny?
PADILLA: Absolutely none. And I can tell you this, that we`ve gone over every phone call and identified every one of them. And there is no Zenaida on there whatsoever. None.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. A stunning theory emerges. Did mom, Casey Anthony, have help in getting rid of little Caylee?
Also tonight, more of those blockbuster interrogation audiotapes have been released.
Out to Mike Brooks. Weigh in, Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, you`re putting all these pieces of this timeline together now, Nancy. And you know, we`re -- I -- you look back, and even the roommate, Nate -- he says that it was on the 15th that she was there, 15th, 16th, during the all-star game, and it`s the 15th that she alleges that she received that call that never happened from Caylee.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By failing to notify somebody, you`ve put your daughter at greater risk.
CASEY ANTHONY: Even bigger risk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You put your daughter in terrible danger by just letting this drag out five weeks and not telling anybody. That`s -- you`re right. I`m not going to argue with you there.
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll offer up my computer in a heartbeat, just like with my phone logs and everything else, anything that could possibly help. That`s why we set up Web sites and have been making phone calls and trying to get ahold of people. I had such a limited number of people that I was actually trusting at that point, thinking maybe they could help, maybe they`d have some insight. I didn`t want to involve a bunch of people that maybe didn`t know the situation.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked you this at the onset and I asked you before we went on tape, and I`ll ask you again just to make sure we`re clear. Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that is untrue?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re...
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission...
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and hasn`t returned her?
CASEY ANTHONY: ... the last person that I had seen with my daughter, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: She used to talk about people all the time but never used specific names or really go into any detail about anything, and it never seemed weird. Some people are just very particular about giving out details or specific details about other people. So I understood all of that. But looking back at stuff now -- the privacy, the way she was a little bit changing phones and -- it just -- it didn`t seem right whatsoever.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: More of those blockbuster audiotapes released. We are taking your calls. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, if you`re trying to fabricate a story to kind of make something look a little bit better, now`s your time to tell me. Are you telling me that this is the story you want to stick with?
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth. It`s the story I`m going to stick with, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. In your own words -- let`s go back. Your daughter`s name is Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marie Anthony. She was born August 9?
CASEY ANTHONY: 2005.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And according to your statement back on August 9 -- I`m sorry -- back on June 9, 2008, you took Casey (SIC) to a baby-sitter`s house.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who was this baby-sitter?
CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzales.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long have you known Zenaida?
CASEY ANTHONY: Almost four years. It`ll be four years Christmas this year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And where did you meet her? Who did you meet her through?
CASEY ANTHONY: A mutual friend. His name is Jeffrey Michael Hopkins. I met him at Nickelodeon at Universal. I met her through him. She was his son`s nanny at the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does Jeffrey still work at Universal?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, he does not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long has it been since he left?
CASEY ANTHONY: About 9, 10 months, give or take.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he move back to Jacksonville?
CASEY ANTHONY: He moved up to North Carolina for a short time and moved down to Jacksonville within the last three months.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time you spoke with him?
CASEY ANTHONY: About a week-and-a-half ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you know a telephone number for him?
CASEY ANTHONY: I can find a number for him. I don`t know a number off hand. No, I do not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back to your statement. You dropped off your - - you dropped off Caylee on June 9, and walk me through. You dropped her off to go work?
CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Get off of work and -- go from there.
CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone, and it`s out of service. It says that the phone is no longer in service. Excuse me.
So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores, just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned something before we went on tape about your cell phones.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. I have two phones. I had just received a new phone through work, through Universal. The phone won`t keep charged, so I use my old phone that I actually had gotten again through Universal for work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you lose the phone?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in that phone, you`re saying, was a SIM card and the SIM card had the contact information?
CASEY ANTHONY: Actually, the SIM card is in my Nokia phone, but I know there`s numbers saved to the cell phone itself. So if we get the actual phone, I know I have one other number for Zenaida.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But they`re not in your SIM card?
CASEY ANTHONY: They`re not saved on the SIM card, they`re saved on the phone. I`ve been trying to figure out on that new phone how to save numbers from the phone to the SIM card and switch them back and forth so that I have everything all in one piece..
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So the phone where you have the number saved was lost.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. I filed an incident report.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, how did you end up keeping the SIM card?
CASEY ANTHONY: I had taken it out. I know I left the phone on my desk at work after I`d switched the SIM card back to my old phone because this was the phone that actually would keep charge. I want to be able to have a working phone instead of having a phone that would only stay charged for about a half hour and then it would die and I can`t make any more calls. It`s for me not practical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So after you -- after you switched the SIM cards on the phone, what?
CASEY ANTHONY: I left it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: I know I left it on my desk. And I hadn`t been at work for at least three or four days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said you made a report to Universal or...
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, with security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Nine days ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nine days ago?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: All of that, lies. She hasn`t worked at Universal in years. She didn`t leave her phone on her desk. None of this happened
I want to go out to Robert Dick, former head of security for Casey Anthony. In fact, detectives are flying out to California to interrogate, to question him about what Anthony told him. That is not the story that she told you, Robert Dick. What did she tell you when you two were in the car together?
ROBERT DICK, FORMER SECURITY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Well, Nancy, that -- she said Jay Blanchard Park, like she said in the report, but the story had changed, that she said she had went straight to Jay Blanchard Park, met Zenaida and her sister, and the sister, Samantha, had played with the kids and taken Caylee away while Zenaida held her back. I mean, it`s a complete different story, just using the same people with the addition of Samantha.
GRACE: But in your story, she never went to Sawgrass Apartments. She met the at Jay Blanchard Park. They were all playing. And there was a mention that Zenaida Gonzalez gave her a script to go by?
DICK: Right. She kept feeding me lines to -- in her mind, supposedly, to help me confirm her story. But you know, knowing most of these answers ahead of time, you could see the lies that they were trying to unravel and trying to help stop going into roadblocks where law enforcement was proving she was lying.
GRACE: Did Casey Anthony tell you the nanny told her what to say when asked about where Caylee was?
DICK: She told me that she was given a script, that she had certain lines to say to law enforcement and whoever asked questions for the next 30 days.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: My one goal is -- regardless of how it happened, the thing is, I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal or do whatever I can to find my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...
CASEY ANTHONY: I put that in my statement, and I mean that with all of my heart.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Zenaida give you any money that day?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I would not have sold my daughter. If I wanted to really just get rid of her, I would have left her with my parents and I would have left. I would have moved out. I would have given my mom custody.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And there`s the issue of pillow talk, how many people she spent time with -- Tony Lazarro, Ricardo Morales, Jesse Grund, Tony Rusciano (ph). Will that come into evidence? Is there any privilege that would keep what she told her various lovers about the scenario -- take a look at what she said to Jesse Grund.
"I remember a phone conversation I had with Casey. I asked her to come to the nightclub. I asked where was Caylee. She said she was with the nanny at the beach for the week, or the weekend. Later on, Casey says, If my mom or dad try to call you, don`t answer. I`ll explain later."
There are a lot of guys that police have to interrogate. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alan Ripka out of New York. Is there any privilege, Alan Ripka, that would keep their testimony from coming in at trial?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not, Nancy. Anything that`s asked of these people, if they want to respond, they can and they will. And they`ll be called to court to refute anything she has to say.
GRACE: Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Doesn`t come in, Nancy, just like all that rambling in the police department doesn`t come in, either, I don`t think.
GRACE: Well, why wouldn`t what she said to her boyfriend come into evidence?
ROCKWELL: I`m sorry, there`s no way to keep it out (ph) from coming in.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Do you have any of these phone numbers programmed into your SIM card that you kept into your other phone?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: No, I do not.
MELICH: How long did you have this old phone?
ANTHONY: I`ve had the Nokia for almost a full year.
MELICH: OK. So after a full year of dealing with Zenaida and having her babysit, you don`t remember.
ANTHONY: Switching the numbers back and forth. Zenaida`s number has changed a couple different times. She switched services between having Sprint or having AT&T or Cingular.
MELICH: What about Jeffrey? You`ve known him for at least four years.
ANTHONY: His numbers changed a couple different times from when he moved from Orlando up to North Carolina and back down to Jacksonville. I know I do have a current number for him.
MELICH: How would you get that number?
ANTHONY: If we can find that other phone or I might have it online, I may be able to access it off the Internet.
WELLS: So we might be able to track her. We might be able to track her.
ANTHONY: If I check my logs we could probably find her through instant messaging.
WELLS: You know what would be great is if we could have our forensic computer guy take your computer with your permission and search it and he can probably track her by her AOL or whatever account and maybe see -- because she`s got to set up another account somewhere where she goes.
ANTHONY: Oh yes. She`s going to set up another account.
WELLS: Would that be something you`d be willing to do?
ANTHONY: I`m OK with that.
WELLS: Yes.
ANTHONY: Because I know that I have documentation on my computer somewhere.
WELLS: OK.
ANTHONY: I have to.
WELLS: Well, he can find it. He -- what he does, he makes a copy of what`s on your computer so you don`t lose anything on your computer.
ANTHONY: Yes. That way he can just pull it.
SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Why would a person who has hid your daughter from you for give weeks, OK, bring her to the building that you used to work at?
I mean did you think we`d walk in here she`d be sitting in the lobby or.
ANTHONY: No.
ALLEN: OK. Well, you brought us here to find her, right? Because you thought maybe some weird sort of what you said backwards way that we`d find her here, that this would her, so I`m asking you.
ANTHONY: Maybe she`s been here within the last five weeks. Maybe they have something from up front her coming through the turnstiles. I don`t know.
ALLEN: So you think that this person who`d hid her from you for five weeks, OK, that had her call you on the phone yesterday and tell you about this book she was reading then hung up, would bring her to Universal Studios? And in this office in particular?
ANTHONY: Not in this office. Coming to this office.
ALLEN: Well, this is where you brought us.
ANTHONY: It wasn`t.
ALLEN: I mean, you didn`t take us to the turnstiles, did you? You brought us here, right?
ANTHONY: You`re right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: In fact, she claims that she has known Zenaida Gonzalez for four years that she met the so-called nanny through a coworker named Jesse Michael Hopkins.
Hopkins was questioned. He did, in fact, once worked in the vicinity of Casey Anthony, but there were only hi and bye. They didn`t know each other and no Zenaida Gonzalez ever worked for him.
Everything she says is a lie.
Out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there in Orlando -- Natisha, what can you tell me about reports that she had relationships with more than two cops?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, actually, according to the PIO I spoke to at the sheriff`s office, they are not aware of any other relationships that she had with more than one officer, other than Jesse Grund and Anthony Ragusa.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka, those reports are throwing.
How, Allan, will that affect the investigation?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s going to be really bad, because, obviously, the defense, as I would claim, that the police officers having a relationship with her can`t have possibly done a thorough investigation and been objective in this investigation.
And who knows what information she told them and who knows what information is going to be claimed they got rid of on her behalf?
GRACE: What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t see a police officer getting rid of any information. I think the bigger problem is that they`re just trying to throw that in to defame her. I think she`s done enough on her own. I don`t think that had any bearing.
GRACE: I don`t think she needs any help to get defamed. I guess you two are living on another planet from me.
Mike Brooks, it is a horrible compromise of an investigation for police officers to actually be romancing -- and I`m putting that euphemistically -- a person of interest in a potential murder case.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Right. It depends on which time, when they were romancing her, as you call it, Nancy, because if they have gone ahead and taken a polygraph and been cleared by the department of any involvement in this, then it really shouldn`t matter that much to the case.
GRACE: If only we had that missing -- that cell phone. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: After about 7:00 when I still hadn`t heard anything I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic. And I went to a neutral place. I didn`t really want to come home. I wasn`t sure what I`d say about not knowing where Caylee was. Still hoping that I would get a call or, you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her.
And I ended up going to my boyfriend Anthony`s house who lived in Sutton place.
MELICH: Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Caylee?
ANTHONY: No, I did not.
WELLS: Did she ever make any funny, oh like I love this child, you know, and I wish you were mine or anything like that? Or.
ANTHONY: Never that I have witnessed or anybody else had ever told me. She used to just say how much she loved Caylee and that she was such a good kid. And you know, she was very, very proud of how she was being raised.
WELLS: Right.
ANTHONY: It was always good praise but more of things that I heard from other friends, nothing that sounded out of the ordinary that was ever strange or weird.
WELLS: Right.
ANTHONY: But then this just happened. And she was nonchalant with me in the morning of. Everything was perfectly fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Taking your calls, out to the lines, Tamara in California. Hi, dear.
TAMARA, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You are doing a wonderful job and nobody could do this better than you.
GRACE: Thank you.
TAMARA: And my question is, she is saying that she has known Zenaida for four years. Now she lived with her mom and dad for quite some time, so had they ever met Zenaida or heard about Zenaida prior to this happening?
GRACE: Leonard Padilla, what do we know?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, BELIEVES TOT MOM HAD AN ACCOMPLICE: In several conversations that I had with Zenaida she definitely does not.
GRACE: Right, you did not have a conversation with Zenaida.
PADILLA: Yes, I have.
GRACE: Zenaida Gonzalez.
PADILLA: The Zenaida Gonzalez that applied for the apartment.
GRACE: Oh, the real Zenaida Gonzalez, right.
PADILLA: Well, the.
GRACE: The question is.
PADILLA: I`m talking about the -- I`m talking about the Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: Did Cindy and George Anthony ever meet or see the nanny?
PADILLA: No. No.
GRACE: That`s the question.
PADILLA: No. No.
GRACE: OK. You met the real Zenaida Gonzalez that has never met Casey Anthony.
PADILLA: Correct. The one that applied for the apartment...
GRACE: Correct.
PADILLA: . at the Saw Grass, yes.
GRACE: OK. Got it. So the bottom line is, no, the grandparents never saw in all those years or spoke to Zenaida Gonzalez.
Out to the lines, Dena in Indiana, hi, Dena.
DENA, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show and your twins are absolutely beautiful.
GRACE: Thank you.
DENA: My question is, actually, to Mr. Padilla. When he was doing security for Casey, when he was still on the bond, did he have any sort of listening device or anything in the home? Because he seems to be dropping little hints here and there.
Did he overhear something?
GRACE: Well, he was in the home.
Leonard Padilla, please respond.
PADILLA: No, we -- we didn`t have any listening devices and we had several conversations with Cindy and George prior to Casey actually getting out of jail. We got there on a Sunday, and she didn`t get out until Thursday. So we were in constant communication with each other.
We were in and out of the home. We were talking to each other. And even up until the conversation that I had with Casey that morning, I still spoke with George and Cindy sometimes outside the house. I never went back in the house. And they`d come out into the RV and talk to us. Or in the driveway.
GRACE: So you learned everything pretty much from them.
Leonard Padilla is with us tonight.
PADILLA: Correct.
GRACE: Robert Dick, as well. Police now heading out to interrogate, question them, about what they know about the case. We know from Robert Dick, Casey Anthony gave him a different version of what happened to little Caylee.
Leonard, why are they interrogating you?
PADILLA: Well, I believe it`s because of the same conversation I had with Cindy. When she told me that her daughter had told her the story about she went to Blanchard Park, and Zenaida and Samantha, her sister, took the baby away, gave her a scripted 30-day statement to make to police, and then when Casey herself gave me that statement about half an hour after the mom had given it to me.
And I think they just want to tie it down and make sure that they`ve got it face-to-face. I`m positive that`s what it is. Plus, they might also be going down to 29 Palms to talk to a fellow by the name of Mark Hawkins, a marine that`s stationed there, who had two conversations on the evening of the 26th when her car ran out of gas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELLS: You`re our biggest help. You`re going to be our biggest help in solving this.
ANTHONY: I have nothing to go off of. That`s the problem. I have perspective ideas of maybe where she could go.
WELLS: Tell me.
ANTHONY: At the same time -- she could have gone back up to New York. She could have gone up to Jacksonville where we have a friend, could have gone down to Miami where her mom and her sister live now.
She could have gone anywhere.
WELLS: Did she have any children?
ANTHONY: No.
WELLS: And we`re talking about the babysitter, right? She didn`t have any children?
ANTHONY: No.
WELLS: Could she have children? Is this something that she could have done and.
ANTHONY: I`m pretty sure that she could. That was never anything that came up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELICH: OK. Who else did you talk to about this besides Jeffrey? You said you tried to call Zenaida`s mom?
PADILLA: Uh-huh.
MELICH: You talked to Jeffrey? Who else did you talk to?
ANTHONY: I talked to Juliette Lewis. She`s one of my coworkers at Universal.
MELICH: She works -- you still work at Universal.
ANTHONY: Yes
MELICH: What -- what do you do at Universal?
ANTHONY: An event coordinator.
MELICH: OK. What is Juliette -- what position is she? Where does she work?
ANTHONY: She`s also an event coordinator. We work in the same department.
MELICH: You have a number for Juliette?
ANTHONY: Off hand, I can`t think of one.
MELICH: She in your SIM card?
ANTHONY: No, she`s not. Some of them are recent numbers. Her number just changed because she just moved back up north. She -- within the last two months has finished moving up to New York.
She`s been subleasing her apartment.
MELICH: So Juliette doesn`t work at Universal anymore?
ANTHONY: No, she does not.
WELLS: When she was watching your baby, she helped you for a year and a half?
ANTHONY: Almost two years.
WELLS: Almost two years. Was she always in that same building?
ANTHONY: She`d been at a house over in Andover Lakes for a while. That was one of the main things.
WELLS: Was it her house or was it one she was sharing?
ANTHONY: No, it was a friend`s house.
WELLS: So it probably wasn`t in her name?
ANTHONY: No, it was not.
WELLS: Do you remember how to get to that house? So we can get the address, maybe do a title search or -- but she was probably just renting a room or.
ANTHONY: I think she`s just renting a room there for a while.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Man, she`s so convincing and lies in such elaborate detail.
To psychotherapist Stacy Kaiser joining us out of L.A. -- Stacy, welcome.
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Hi.
GRACE: What do you make of her demeanor? She`s so calm and all of her lies have so much detail. I mean the way she tells it, it`s so believable. But she knows -- we know that none of this is true. None of these people admit that they had these conversations, that they worked with her. Nothing.
KAISER: Part of what we know about people who are pathological liars is that they go into a lot of detail. So all of the little details, how she is talking about, oh, I sat on the step, and I do this and I do that, that`s part of the indicator that she is not telling the truth. She is trying to make it more elaborate so it sounds like she is telling the truth.
GRACE: What do you make of her demeanor?
KAISER: I would say that her affect is completely flat. That she is completely disassociated from the whole experience and not feeling much of anything at this time.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Samantha in Kentucky. Hi, Samantha.
SAMANTHA, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
SAMANTHA: I have actually two questions. First one is, with her sleeping with that cop, could he have gotten access to the chloroform that was found in her car, maybe? And the second question was, how she had stated she left work from Universal to pick up Caylee. Now, isn`t it true she hasn`t worked for Universal in a couple of years?
GRACE: In years. In years she hasn`t worked there. All of this business about losing her phone there and filing an incident report with Universal. She hasn`t worked there in years.
Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, a cop getting chloroform? I don`t think so.
BROOKS: No, I don`t think so, either, Nancy. That just doesn`t add up. And also, on the whole investigative side of things, I seriously doubt if he would have any access to any of the investigative files in this case at all, too.
GRACE: To Jack Trimarco, polygraph expert, formerly fed with the FBI.
Jack, we understand the grandparents are now refusing to take a polygraph. Very often, we hear people opt to take a private polygraph arranged by their lawyer. Why?
JACK TRIMARCO, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, FORMER FBI POLYGRAPH UNIT CHIEF OF L.A.: Well, Nancy, quite frankly, the lawyer will never be sure that the client can pass the polygraph test.
And so any credible defense attorney in the country is going to first polygraph their client privately to be sure that he can pass the exam before he turns them over to law enforcement for the law enforcement polygraph exam.
In the world of polygraph, if two experts are testing the same issue, you should turn out with the same results. And thus, it`s going to be a positive for that person cooperating with the authorities.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, you met and spoke extensively with the grandparents. Why do you believe they`re not taking a polygraph?
PADILLA: Well, I don`t really believe it`s their decision not to take it. I think Lee is the one that didn`t want to take a polygraph. And at the time, I believe he influenced them to say, no, we don`t want to take -- the fact is, I think that he`s the one who voiced the objection to taking the polygraph on their behalf.
I think he strenuously objected to it and they just kind of went along with it.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, now we learn that Lee Anthony`s statement has been released. What do we learn with what the brother told the cops?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, what the brother told the cops, I`m not really sure, I wish you`re hitting on that one as something more specific?
GRACE: Well, I understand -- Natisha, are you familiar with his statement to police?
LANCE: Yes.
GRACE: Natisha Lance, what did he say?
LANCE: Lee Anthony, he -- the statements that he gave to police is that he hadn`t seen his sister in weeks. She hadn`t been around. Also, he talked about the same thing that she had been with the nanny.
GRACE: You know, I`ve got his statement right here in my hands. And he describes Casey began to break down and told me she doesn`t know where Caylee is, hasn`t seen her in 31 days.
You know, it`s basically the same story about the nanny. But that she actually breaks down and shows emotion that one time.
To Pam in Tennessee, hi, Pam.
PAM, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for keeping this on the front burner.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
PAM: My question is, I cannot understand how Casey Anthony came up with that very specific name of the woman who, from what Mr. Padilla said, has applied to that apartment complex for an apartment. Never lived there but yet she went to that apartment. Does she have connections in that rental office or somewhere to come up with that name?
GRACE: Leonard, what about it? How do -- where did she get that name? Zenaida Gonzalez did come to that apartment complex.
PADILLA: She did go there on the 17th, she did fill out an application. And the information is accurate. Her phone number is the same phone number that she has as of yesterday.
And I think what it is that Casey has friends in Apartment 218, Andy Downey and Dante, and I think somehow, she got a hold of that application.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: My one goal is regardless of how it happened, the thing is I don`t care, I will lie, I will steal or do whatever I can to find my daughter.
WELLS: Well.
ANTHONY: I put that in my statement and I mean that with all of my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what can you tell me about grandmother, Cindy, going on Univision?
PETRIMOULX: Yes, you know, we haven`t heard much from her lately. This one of the first time that we heard from her. She said she wanted to do an interview with a Spanish speaking audience because of theory that she has that Caylee is missing in Puerto Rico.
We`ve heard her mentioned Puerto Rico, Texas and some other places, so she said she did this interview to try to reach a Spanish speaking audience specifically in Puerto Rico.
GRACE: Leonard, why is she focusing on Puerto Rico?
PADILLA: Well, some of the friends of Casey went down there and I even suggested that she do that prior to the results from the Tennessee and FBI lab coming out.
Obviously, my thinking changed completely at that time, but I had suggested at that time that she go on Spanish speaking because of the friends that had gone down to Puerto Rico.
GRACE: Weigh in, Mike Brooks.
BROOKS: I`ll tell you, Nancy, they`re doing all this. Are they still in denial? I mean, I think Leonard will say yes, I think that the Anthonys are still in denial, because everything points to Caylee being deceased, unfortunately.
GRACE: To Renee and Alan - Renee, she`s not going to crack, is she?
ROCKWELL: Well, no, not as long as she`s out. And if she would have stayed in jail, maybe she would have cracked but not as long as she`s out, going in and out.
GRACE: Alan Ripka?
RIPKA: And I`ll tell you this, if she doesn`t crack and everything stayed the same, they would have no homicide charges in this particular case.
GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Jason Kazarick, 30, Oakmont, Pennsylvania, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, dreamed of being in the Special Forces.
Remember for a kind and generous heart, even picking flowers. Leaves behind grieving mom Susan, brother Taylor, sister Marissa, fiancee Suzanne and her son Tim.
Jason Kazarick, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
