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Father of Casey Anthony`s Ex-Fiance Speaks Out

Aired September 22, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 14 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Is there a new and legitimate Caylee sighting? Tips lead investigators north to Tennessee. Does grainy surveillance video from a local McDonald`s catch 3-year-old Caylee and mom, Casey, just before Caylee goes missing? And a man accused of fathering little Caylee -- that`s right, the man named by mom, Casey, as Caylee`s biological father -- we hear his family`s story on little Caylee exclusively tonight, and along with that, a highly disturbing web of lies by mom, Casey, that they experienced.

She now faces 71 years behind bars on multiple fraud charges. And more bombshell audiotapes released of mom, Casey`s, police interrogation, the state`s attorney now investigating trust funds set up to find Caylee. And why did the Anthonys abruptly cancel the candlelight vigil? Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family of Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance is breaking their silence tonight, speaking out. And Nancy Grace obtains exclusive new photos showing mother, Casey Anthony, like you`ve never seen her. Will these pictures show insight into the mindset of tot mom Casey Anthony? And more interrogation tapes, as we hear Anthony`s web of lies unraveling.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Not everything that I told you.


CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at!



CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds!




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You purposely misled us...



CASEY ANTHONY: I got arrested on a (DELETED) limb (ph) today.



CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you telling me that this is the story you want to stick with?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth. It`s the story I`m going to stick with, yes.


GRACE: And tonight, police on high alert for four little children in extreme danger, Missouri.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police also searching for their mom, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs (ph). Riggs had a visit with her kids over the weekend and never returned them. They range in age from 14 to 7. Police say she fled to Oregon once before, and may be doing it again. They say she was afraid of losing custody at a hearing scheduled for earlier today. A warrant was issued for her arrest, with bond set at $500,000.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance`s family is speaking out, breaking their silence with Nancy Grace. This, as exclusive new photos released showing the tot mom like you`ve never seen her before.


CASEY ANTHONY: It is the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not the truth. You need to tell...

CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s not the truth. We can`t get past that unless you go ahead and tell us the truth.

CASEY ANTHONY: There`s nothing to get past because that is the truth.



CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s (DELETED) (INAUDIBLE) that I`m saying. (DELETED detectives (DELETED) (DELETED)



CASEY ANTHONY: I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with was Zenaida.



CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) sitting in, oh, the jail?



CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is.


CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew (INAUDIBLE) any sense where she was, this wouldn`t be happening at all.



CASEY ANTHONY: I just watched the (DELETED) news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.



CASEY ANTHONY: This is so heart-wrenching because there was never a sign...



CASEY ANTHONY: I called to talk to my mother and it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETE) waste your time coming up.



CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God. Calling you guys -- a waste, a huge waste.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She always seemed like she had a smile on her face. You know, if there was laundry to be done, she would take of that. I think one night, she made pasta for everyone.



CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In these surveillance photos, a young girl resembling Caylee Anthony is seen inside a McDonald`s restaurant in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, on July 10.



CASEY ANTHONY: I just want my daughter back.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk. What is the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, well, you are going to make news on your very own show tonight. The father of Casey Anthony`s ex- fiance, Jesse Grund, will be breaking his silence for literally the first time on nationwide TV. He`ll tell you more about Casey Anthony`s web of lies, such as at one time, when Casey was pregnant, she told Jesse that he was the father. It turned out not to be true. Unbelievable stuff, Nancy.

Secondly, the fiance had a paternity test performed, and it showed that he was not the father. But he fell in love with little Caylee. And then thirdly, you`ll show some very rare pictures of Jesse Grund, Caylee, and of course, Casey Anthony, all together.

GRACE: Yes, we`re showing those right now.


GRACE: With us tonight, everyone, is a very special guest. We are very happy to have with us Richard Grund. This is the father of Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund. We`ve all heard a lot about Jesse Grund. A lot of people have pointed the finger at him as being involved in Caylee`s disappearance.

I`ve got right here with me the police copy of Grund speaking with them freely and voluntarily. He voluntarily immediately signed up for a polygraph test and passed.

Sir, thank you for being with us.

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF CASEY`S EX-FIANCE, JESSE: Thank you, Nancy, for having me.

GRACE: What was your first reaction when you learned little Caylee was missing?

GRUND: Shock, distraught, and just complete bewilderment.

GRACE: How did your son, who by all accounts is a fine young man -- how did he get tangled up with Casey Anthony?

GRUND: Well, thank you for that compliment. The same way everybody else does. You see something in Casey that makes you want to like her, makes you want to love her, makes you want to overlook the lies and the problems. He met her at Universal Studios, when he was doing loss prevention, and she was actually working at Kodak during that time.

GRACE: And what happened?

GRUND: They met. They dated briefly. She kind of scared him away with the immediate word "Love", I`m in love with you, within two weeks and latched on, and it kind of scared him away and they broke up.

GRACE: You know, that seems like a recurring issue that she has, immediately moves in with someone, immediately is there every single night, is in love, the whole shebang. Now, let`s get right down to the brass tacks. How did it come about that Casey Anthony names Jesse Grund, your son, as the bio dad of little Caylee?

GRUND: Well, of course, we`d have to start with the fact that they got together and were intimate. They broke up. And Casey actually showed up at our house. First time I met Casey was summer of `05. I want to say June. She helped my younger son get a job at Kodak. I spotted right then and there she was pregnant, but she was telling everybody she had female problems and she wasn`t pregnant.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait. You could tell she was pregnant, but she denied she was pregnant?

GRUND: Yes. Yes, Nancy. the minute my son came in and I asked who was that, and he told me that, That`s Casey, the girl that I dated briefly, and I said, Well, son, she`s pregnant. Oh, no, no, she`s only got female problems. I asked her about that, that`s what she`s told everybody, including her family. And I said, No, I know a woman who`s pregnant, and she was pregnant.

GRACE: Then what happened?

GRUND: Well, about a month later, he gets a phone call from her and she says, I need to talk to you. But Jesse is in the middle of a seminar for a new job. He says, I can`t talk to you right now, send me a text message. And so while he`s sitting there in the middle of this seminar, he gets a text message says, I`m pregnant and you`re the father. That`s it.

So he calls us up, tells us the situation. He`s a little embarrassed because he knows, based on our values, this is really not something I want to hear on the other end of the telephone. But he`s my son and I love him and I`ll support him. And he immediately steps up and says, I`m going to take responsibility for my actions.

He meets with Casey and basically says, Look, both of us are too young to be parents. Let`s put this baby up for adoption to somebody who wants a baby that can`t have one. And Casey said, That`s not an option, that`s not going to happen. So Caylee is born August of `05, as we know. Jesse gets the call the minute she`s born, goes to the hospital and requests a paternity test, which we had all said, Best thing to do before you put your name on the birth certificate, let`s make sure you`re really the father.

GRACE: Now, let me ask you about the birth certificate. With us is Richard Grund. He is the father of Jesse Grund. Was he a -- in law enforcement?

GRUND: No. Well, actually, at that time, he was in loss prevention at Universal Studios.

GRACE: Yes. Did he go into law enforcement?

GRUND: Yes, he did. He went to the police academy and was with the Orlando Police Department for a brief period of time and then came to the mutual conclusion that maybe being a police officer...

GRACE: Was not for him.

GRUND: ... was not for him.

GRACE: Now, at the time Caylee was born, it`s my understanding that Casey Anthony wanted to put his name on the birth certificate.

GRUND: Almost immediately.

GRACE: And what happened?

GRUND: He said, No, let`s wait and do a paternity test first.

GRACE: Did she want a paternity test?

GRUND: No, she did not. She was actually angry with him about it.

GRACE: And said?

GRUND: That she just didn`t want -- didn`t want to do it. But she had no choice.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing photos Mr. Grund provided to us. This is baby Caylee shortly after her birth.

Now, your son, even after he learned he was not the father, the bio dad, he wanted to raise little Caylee as his own. And in fact, Casey, to my understanding, would leave Caylee at your home from early in the morning until late in the day all the time.

GRUND: Well, not all the time, but during the period of time where she lost her regular baby-sitter, Jesse would watch her one day and then we would watch her another couple of days during the week. But most of the time, Casey and Caylee were at our house. She spent as much time as she could with us.

GRACE: Did you learn whether mom, Casey, actually had a job? Where was she going?

GRUND: Up until April of `06, she actually was going to Universal and working at one of the Kodak kiosks, you know, shops there...

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: ... for taking pictures. So she actually did have a job up until April `06.

GRACE: Taking pictures? Excuse me. She did what?

GRUND: You know, some of the rides people come off and they have their picture taken, and then they convince you to buy the ride (ph) of how silly you look as you come down? Well, that`s what she would do for Kodak.

GRACE: What happened to event planning?

GRUND: Yes, it wasn`t a part of her life then.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zenaida give you any money that day?

GRUND: No. I would not have sold my daughter. If I wanted to really just get rid of her, I would have left her with my parents and I would have left. I would have moved out. I would have given my mom custody.




CASEY ANTHONY: She`s had at least three different phone numbers in the last almost four years that I`ve met her. And I know that she was on two different phone plans at...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... two different times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... two different places since...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that you know of?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s lived at a couple of places.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since she`s been watching your child?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s lived just in Orlando since I`ve met her. But she had just moved here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At Andover Lakes she lived -- was she watching your baby there?



GRACE: With us tonight, a very special guest. Jesse Grund was accused of being the biological father of little Caylee. In fact, mom, Casey, insisted he put his name on Caylee`s birth certificate. He demanded a paternity test. With us tonight, his father, Richard Grund.

Mr. Grund, how did your son react when he learned he was not the biological father?

GRUND: Well, it was eight weeks after Caylee was born, and by then he was emotionally invested. And while most guys would have been happy, he was emotionally devastated.

GRACE: Who`s the father?

GRUND: What Casey told Jesse was that the father was a one-night- stand who, apparently, a year later, dies in some mysterious car accident. And so the answer to your question is nobody really knows, except for Casey.

GRACE: Do you buy that story?

GRUND: About the one-night-stand and the car accident? No, I don`t.

GRACE: What do you think?

GRUND: I think it`s somebody that she either doesn`t want people to know or doesn`t want that person to know that they were the father.

GRACE: Did your son have any idea she was having a relationship with somebody else at the same time she was with him?

GRUND: That didn`t happen until just at the end of their engagement, and he found that out after the fact. I kind of found it out on my own almost immediately. It didn`t take much of an effort to go to her MySpace page and see comments from somebody else that were a little bit too affectionate, and then go to his page and see a comment that says, It`s official, I miss you, two months before they break up. So it was kind of the beginning of the pattern. Casey always has the next person lined up before she moves on.

GRACE: So she`s always one step ahead of everybody.

GRUND: It would seem that that`s her pattern. As I was discussing with Mark, I think Casey lives in her own reality. And in that reality, she -- it`s almost like her own TV show. You know the movie "The Truman Show," where everybody -- this guy was living a real life, but it was a fake life? I think that`s Casey. And I think that`s why we`re not getting the answers that we want because she`s in her own reality.

GRACE: Did she stay on good terms with Jesse?

GRUND: After the break-up, they didn`t talk for 10 months, which is understandable. But then Jesse kind of realized, If I shut Casey out, I shut Caylee out. So they began to speak again. They began to become friends again. And then, actually, in November of `07, they tried to date again to see if maybe they could make it work, but it didn`t.

GRACE: When you first learned of little Caylee`s disappearance, what did you believe happened?

GRUND: I had two theories, which I shared with George Anthony and I also shared with law enforcement and also Leonard Padilla. My first theory was, Casey seemed to be breaking ties with her mother. To do that, she needed her own financial source. She might have gotten involved in something that went bad and they had taken the child. Or something happened by accident and Casey cracked.

GRACE: Casey cracked. But you know, with your theories, how do you explain the saturated air of chloroform in the air of the trunk and the Web searches on her computer for chloroform?

GRUND: Well, what I think -- and again, this is just my opinion and speculation. Something happens to cause Casey`s life to spiral out of control. I`m going to give away my age here. When I was growing up, I used to watch Ed Sullivan, and there was this guy that had this act where he`d spin plates on a bowl and he`d have to move to the next pole and go back to the first pole, and eventually, all the plates would crash. Something happened in Casey`s life to cause the plates to crash because up until May and June of `08, her controlled mess of a life was running fine.

GRACE: Isn`t it true that your son agreed right up front to take a polygraph?

GRUND: Yes. He`s agreed with anything and everything law enforcement...

GRACE: And he passed.

GRUND: Yes, he did.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. With me is the family, the father of Jesse Grund, accused of being Caylee`s biological father.

To Abbie in New York. Hi, Abbie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a question that comes from me and my three granddaughters.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK? We want to know about the script. Has anyone seen the script that she was supposedly given to tell the police for 30 days? And where is it?

GRACE: Straight out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter in Sacramento, California, who has become part of this case when he first put up the bond for Casey Anthony, $500,000. What about that script? You and your security team are familiar with one of the stories Casey Anthony told, that she was in Jay Blanchard Park with Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny -- doesn`t exist -- and her sister, Samantha. And they put Caylee in their car and said, Here, here`s a script for you to tell people about for 30 days after we have Caylee. And they left. What about the script? Has anybody ever found the script?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: If such a script exists, neither myself nor Rob Dick nor anybody on -- in my group of people have seen it.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Doug Burns. Out of New York, Christopher Amolsch joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of Washington D.C. What about that? Don`t you think that`ll be a little problem for your client, Doug Burns, the script she claims the nanny gave her? Whoops! I guess the dog ate the homework.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, no. There`s no question about it. I mean, it`s not only just the script, the whole series of statements that she`s made amounts to what prosecutors are going to call consciousness of guilt. The only defense point at this in this investigation, though, is they`re really sort of between probable cause and beyond a reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Christopher?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Doug. I mean, Doug`s spot on. I mean, the longer she keeps talking, the more that comes out, the more lies that come out. They just don`t have enough to charge her with it right now, and I don`t know if they ever are going to, to be honest with you.

GRACE: I want to go back to Richard Grund, the father of Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund. Mr. Grund, do you believe there is any chance Caylee is still alive?

GRUND: According to my beliefs, I walk by faith and not by sight. So until I know for sure, absolutely beyond a doubt that Caylee is gone, then I will hold out the hope that she`s going to come home.

GRACE: You can`t even bring yourself to say dead, the word dead, can you.

GRUND: Well, again, in my opinion, Caylee`s either going to come home or she`s already gone home.


GRUND: My one goal is, happened regardless of how it happened, the thing is, I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal or do whatever I can to find my daughter.


CASEY ANTHONY: I put that in my statement, and I mean that with all of my heart.




CASEY ANTHONY: Even with the boyfriend that Zenaida had last year...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... I saw him maybe twice.


CASEY ANTHONY: They only dated a couple months. It was never anything serious. She never had him around Caylee or the other children she baby-sat, so it was never an uncomfortable situation. But this is so heart-wrenching because there was never a sign, never a single sign that this was going to happen.


GRACE: That is mom, Casey Anthony, in new recordings released of the police interrogation of Casey Anthony. She is referring to what many people believe to be an imaginary nanny named Zenaida Gonzalez.

Back to the father of Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance. Richard Grund is with us. Did you ever are know of this nanny, see her, talk to her, hear of her?

GRUND: I never saw her or spoke to her, but I did hear of her. I heard of her in April of `06, when Casey lost her regular baby-sitter. As I said, Jesse would watch her. I would watch her. She tried to get my high-school-age son to watch her, which meant I watched her because I have an office in my home.

Finally, one day when Casey came home from work to wait for Jesse and hang out with us, I kind of greeted her at the door with, What are we going to do about this baby-sitter thing? And she says, I found one. I have a nanny. Her name is Zanny, and I got her from Jeffrey Hopkins, who has a son named...

GRACE: But none of that is true. Jeffrey Hopkins says that`s not true.



CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: What`s the reason you didn`t call the police before? Since right now we`re here because your grandparents or your parents asked you about the child, and they were concerned and didn`t get an answer as to where the child was, they called the sheriff`s office.

Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which, obviously, I couldn`t. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved or my parents, which I know was dumb to think that -- just fear of the unknown.

Fear of the potential Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls live.

With us tonight, the father of Casey Anthony`s ex, accused of being the biological father of little Caylee.

Out to the lines, Lucy in South Carolina. Hi, Lucy.

LUCY, SOUTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Ironically, my question speaks in the same vein as Mr. Grund and your guest.


LUCY: With -- I`m an RN with psychiatrist nursing experience, and I notice in all of the interviews with Casey that she keeps mentioning that she can`t wrap her -- brain around this, and that she has this horrible fear of not ever seeing her daughter again, and she repeats about how she can`t accept that she won`t ever see the child again.

Why couldn`t it be -- Mr. Grund talks about this traumatic experience. That she was asleep, and the child got in the pool and drowned. And when she found the child and couldn`t revive her, she just snapped, and she blocked it out of her mind, and she went and buried her and put her in the car and took her and buried her somewhere, which would have account for the stuff in the car, the chloroform in the car, or whatever.

And that she just can`t wrap her brain around it, and she`s just gone off into some fantasy. She can`t face her mother.

GRACE: OK, Lucy -- are you possibly mistaking chlorine in a swimming pool for the deadly narcotic chloroform?

LUCY: Well, that could have been drugs. I don`t know. But.

GRACE: No. No, no, no. That is drugs. And Lucy, stay with me. How in your scenario would her multiple Web site searches on chloroform fit into the swimming pool accident theory?

LUCY: You`re doing premeditation. Yes. I can see that.

GRACE: OK. So are you saying it does not fit?

LUCY: I guess not. I just.

GRACE: OK. I know. And Lucy, I`m going to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." I understand what Lucy in South Carolina is doing.

When you suspect a mom of murder, you look for reasons, why. Why would she do this? Is there any other explanation, other than cold, calculated murder? Why?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I wish Lucy`s theory was true. But as I listen to Mr. Grund, I think that Casey`s lying is actually a form of thievery amongst other things.

She wants Jesse Grund of the capacity to decide whether he wants to date a pregnant woman or whether or not he wants to bond to a child that may or may not be his. She steals men`s hearts by lying. She steals her mother -- from her mother, robs from her mother, the capacity to spend time with the granddaughter.

She steals this little girl`s future in her life. As the investigators are asking her questions, she steals precious moments that could be used to find her daughter. It`s a grand form of thievery and manipulation.

Even those 9-11 calls, she`s using words like surveillance and there`s an altercation and we`ve had an incident. She robs a few moments of glory to pretend she is a part of the police team. It`s all about her and what serves her needs.

GRACE: I want to go to a special guest joining us tonight, Marc Klaas. You all know Marc, child advocate, the founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Not only that, a crime victim himself, after the kidnap and murder of his precious girl, Polly.

You know, Marc Klaas, I want to ask you in a different vein tonight. We know that Jesse Grund, who is accused of being the bio dad, his family is with us tonight. Immediately, just like you did, Marc, said, take my polygraph, I insist, because then you can start -- stop wasting time on me and then go find my daughter. Find Caylee. Find whomever the subject may be.

Tell me about your experience, Marc. Explain why it is so important that, for instance, we have been told by Leonard Padilla that the Anthonys refuse to take a polygraph. Why is it so critical, in your experience, Marc Klaas, that they do that?

MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, BEYONDMISSING.COM, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM POLLY KLAAS: First of all, Nancy, the clock of fear starts ticking the moment you realize that your child is gone, and you have no idea where that child is.

You then are working against the clock, realizing that if somebody has taken them, they could be disappearing at the rate of a mile a minute, and that every minute that child is gone, the chances of recovering that child become less and less.

Therefore, you will take any steps necessary to help recover that child. The most important one being eliminating yourself from any kind of suspicion. Therefore, you go to law enforcement, you say, I want to take a polygraph, I want to eliminate myself.

I want you to be able to put the full force of your investigative resource on to whatever did happen to my child so that we can recover my child and this can be done one way or the other.

This Casey woman is an absolutely odious creature. You see -- it`s like concentric circles in a pond. She is leaving victim after victim after victim after victim. I see this wonderful man, Mr. Grund, almost come to tears on your program over something over which he had absolutely no control, and should not have been involved in ever.

GRACE: You know, Marc, a lot of people claim that if you`re upset, if you`re anxious or frustrated, sad, on a particular issue, it will make you fail a lie detector. That you took a lie detector in the midst of the drama surrounding your little girl.

And you passed it.

KLAAS: Well, you know, you hear this from television, and you hear it most especially from defense attorneys. Or, in fact, any attorney that`s representing you will most likely tell you not to take a polygraph exam.

But at some place, you have to put your faith in truth. And really, this is always a quest for truth. And if the truth is that you had nothing to do with the disappearance of your child, or whatever the issue may be, then you take the polygraph, and you -- you deal with those issues as they come up.

I don`t know anybody -- and I know when we were talking about sociopaths and psychopaths, et cetera, there is an ability, sometimes, because there is no conscious to pass these things, but that`s a small subset of society.

And I think that anybody that takes one of these polygraphs, if they have nothing to hide, they will not be falsely implicated.

GRACE: And back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, are you absolutely certain that Cindy and George Anthony had agreed to take a polygraph and then, Lee, the son, talked them out of it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH MISSING TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: That`s correct. And then you can verify that through Rob Dick, because he was in more conversation with Lee than I was. But that`s exactly true.

And what Marc has just said about lie detector tests -- I`ve had a lot of experience with them -- is very accurate. Very seldom is there a mistake made that implicates you, if you`re really innocent of the situation.

GRACE: Out to famed forensic scientist, Lawrence Kobilinsky at John J. College of Criminal Justice, who has now signed on to be a consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team.

You know, Kobe, I have been wondering, after knowing you all of these years, after reading your work and admiring you, why you were waffling around, slippy slidy, on a lot of questions I was asking you. Now it`s become apparent.

Now how do you plan to help the Anthonys on, for instance, these 71 years worth of fraud charges? What exactly forensically are you going to do on a bad check case?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, first of all, Nancy, I think you recognize that not only is this case that we`re discussing, Caylee Anthony, a forensic case dealing with physical evidence, but even the check fraud deals with document examination, handwriting analysis.

And that is not my expertise. I am here, I think, to talk to the public about forensic scientist in general. But to Mr. Baez, I think he, as a good defense attorney, is entitled to know what the science says. And I don`t make things black, white and white black. But I have to give him the best that science can offer.

GRACE: With us, Lawrence Kobilinsky from John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Quick break, everyone. We`re taking your calls live. But I want to let you know that high-profile crime journalist and author, Dominick Dunne, and crime victim, rushed from a Vegas courtroom to a local hospital, complaining of pain.

It was in the middle of the O.J. Simpson armed robbery trial. He has covered -- Dunne has covered some of the biggest last trials of the last 30 years and is battling bladder cancer. He`s headed back to New York in the next few days. And we are praying for him.

Dominick, our friend, stay strong.




SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: You first called the police about this when your mother and father, OK -- actually you called the police to report your daughter missing.

What happens is your parents find their car has been towed from Amsoct and your parents ask you where your daughter is and you tell daughter or your parents, you haven`t seen your daughter for over a month, right?

That`s true, OK, so I haven`t told you anything -- so far I haven`t said anything that`s not true, OK?


ALLEN: That`s true, OK? Sounds -- true sounds reasonable to you, correct?


GRACE: Straight out to our producer standing by the Anthony home, Natisha Lance.

Natisha, why did the Anthonys abruptly cancel the vigil for Caylee?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they said that they were concerned about the safety of not only themselves but other people in the area who were going to be attending the vigil because of the protesters that have been out here and they did not want another confrontation that they`ve had over the last couple weeks, as -- once again.

GRACE: And to Mark Williams of WNDB, what can you tell me about this alleged sighting of little Caylee?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: July 10th, a piece of videotape surfaced from a Murfreesboro, Tennessee McDonald`s. Murfreesboro was right near Nashville. The -- one of the restaurant workers there said she saw the tape, she sent it to the FBI, the FBI is discounting it all together because there have been other video sightings, nothing`s turned out.

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," what do you make of the sighting? Here it is.

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Well, it`s not a sighting, Nancy. It`s actually hard evidence. It`s going to come back either or another -- it`s going to come back that it is Casey or Caylee, or it`s going to come back and says it isn`t.

But if they`re discounting it, I think they`re discounting it because they`ve already taken a look at the video. They would not discount it right off the top.

GRACE: I want to go back to Richard Grund.

Richard, I know that you recall the very last time that you were with Caylee. I know you recall holding her in your arms, taking care of her, day after day after day. Have you been in contact with mom, Casey, at all since she went missing?


GRACE: How about Jesse?


GRACE: So as close as you al were to little Caylee, she has not called you or had anything to say to you about Caylee`s disappearance?

GRUND: No, she might have called Jesse, but you have to understand, when this all happened, Jesse was the first person to come forward to give a statement. He was the first person to help law enforcement, and I would suspect that Casey feels betrayed, and she probably wouldn`t call him.

GRACE: What do you think happened?

GRUND: Again, I`m going to hold out hope, but either -- I believe that something happened, and it`s possible that something happened and Casey snapped. And I heard what were Klaas said, and I understand where everybody is coming from.

And I`m not here to defend Casey Anthony.

GRACE: I understand that.

GRUND: But I want people to understand that the Casey we knew that spent all of the time with us and watched Sunday football, and the pictures that you have is not the Casey you see right now.

And I think the clue to finding Caylee is what bridges the Casey we knew to the aberration we have now. If we can figure out what causes her to become, as Mr. Klaas said, the monster she is now, I think we find out what happened to Caylee.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live, but I want to alert you about four children that are in danger tonight. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Took the children right there, and she got scared. She panicked and ran -- because she thought she was going to lose them.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And she`s worried about the well-being of her daughter, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs, and her grandchildren. Grandsons, Spencer and Kelley, and granddaughters Raven and Rhiannon.

Shirley does not have custody of her children. They`re currently in foster care. Police say on Friday night during an unsupervised overnight visit at her house, she put the kids in a maroon Dodge Caravan with Missouri like this one with Missouri plates MB6 C8M and drove out without telling anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m worried. I`m worried about it all. I have to imagine where she is at and are they eating. But I`m sure she -- she will manage.


GRACE: These four children in extreme danger, according to authorities.

Out to Aisha Sultan, home and family editor with the "St. Louis Post- Dispatch." Thank you for being with us. What happened?

AISHA SULTAN, ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, WWW.STL.COM/PARENTSTALKBACK: She picked these children up for an unsupervised visit on Friday and she was supposed to bring them back on Saturday. But when there was no sign of her, it raised a red flag, especially since there was a history the previous year of her not returning the kids after her visits.

GRACE: Is that where she got the four charges of interference with custody?

SULTAN: That`s exactly right. And she`s facing those charges. But that was unrelated to a hearing, a custody hearing coming up on Monday. And there is some speculation that perhaps she panicked about whether her custody rights would change, and just took off.

GRACE: What were her custody rights?

SULTAN: It seems as though she was allowed some unsupervised visits, but apparently they weren`t very lengthy, because she was only allowed to be with them from Friday until Saturday. So it`s unclear right now.

GRACE: Now, what are the ages of the children, Aisha?

SULTAN: 14, 12, 10 and 7. Her oldest was a teenager boy and the younger three were girls. There is some real concern about where they might be going or whether she has the supplies necessary to even take care of them for any amount of time.

GRACE: Why didn`t she have custody of her own children?

SULTAN: That is, I think, remains to come out in the custody hearings that were supposed to happen on Monday.

GRACE: Is she under any mental treatment?

SULTAN: The police authorities did release a statement saying that they are concerned about the welfare of these children, particularly because there may be some psychiatric issues involved in this case.

GRACE: What about it, John Lucich?

LUCICH: As far as what, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, as far as finding the mom and the children?

LUCICH: Well, they`re going to be watching everything that she does. They`re going to be looking at her credit card receipts. They`re going to be doing -- watching, maybe even pinging her cell phone if she`s got them. They`re going to watching all the activities with the ATM.

You know, in some states, we have it here in New York and New Jersey, we actually have -- cameras that have license plate recognition software built right in where they can actually identify that. So they`re going to be doing a lot of different things to find this woman.

GRACE: To Doug Burns and Christopher Amolsch -- Doug, she`ll never get custody now.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely. I mean it was.

GRACE: Not that I want her to, but.

BURNS: No, of course, but I mean it was well explained. She`s got a hearing coming up Monday at which her rights might have been compromised. So it seems like she panicked, definitely.


GRACE: Four children clearly in danger tonight. Their mom, who did not have custody, has made off with them.

To Marc Klaas, what do you suggest?

KLAAS: Well, I suggest that they start modifying the AMBER Alert. We knew certain things, that they may be heading to Denver, they may be heading to Oregon. Now if they were heading to Denver in this vehicle, it`s a 618 miles shot. Straight across Highway 70.

All they would have to do is e-mail or fax the fliers of these missing persons to every highway service station, convenient store, fast food outlets, highway motel, and truck stop, and somebody who have recognized them and put a stop to this immediately.

The same thing if they were going to Oregon. It would have been Highway 80 to Highway 84. It would have twice as long a trip, but still they could have done -- they could have done a targeted distribution and put a stop to it very quickly.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, weight in.

MARSHALL: These children have been raised by a mother who`s paranoid and mistrustful of authority figures, probably wants to alienate them from the other parent, probably has a little insight into their needs. Otherwise, she would have been the custodial parent.

And in terms of psychiatric issues, she looks very thin, which makes me think of either anorexia or substance abuse. These children are probably terrified at this point.

GRACE: Tip line, 816-325-758. Please help us.

I want to stop and remember Army Specialist Jeremiah Hughes, 26, Jacksonville, Florida, killed, Iraq. Fulfilled his dream of serving and protecting his country. Loved reading history. Favorite TV show, "24."

Leaves behind grieving parents and two younger brothers, also serving the army, widow, Angie.

Jeremiah Hughes, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. And tonight, happy 90th birthday to New York friend of the show, Iris. She never misses a show.

Happy birthday, Iris.

And Dominick Dunne, please get well.

I`ll see you tomorrow at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.