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Nancy Grace
More Police Interrogation Audiotapes Released in Casey Anthony Case
Aired September 25, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 14 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. In the last hours, new police audiotapes surface in the search for little Caylee. For the first time on tape, three of the many men in mom, Casey`s, life tell police their story of what happened when Caylee disappeared. In their own words during police interrogations, brother Lee Anthony, ex-fiance Jesse Grund and live-in lover Tony Lazzarro (ph) caught on tape.
Bombshell documents reveal mom, Casey, sends 561 text messages, only two -- repeat, only two out of 561 -- are about Caylee. Reports surface mom, Casey, now tells family members little Caylee was sold in Puerto Rico. And exclusively tonight, mom, Casey`s, neighbor with us live tonight. Where is Caylee?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I was at my mom`s house within five minutes. When I arrived, go through the garage door like I typically do. There was -- the only vehicle in there was my -- the vehicle drove -- driven by my sister, the white Pontiac. The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time, and went inside the house to see if anybody was there. Nobody was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell filled up the garage.
LEE ANTHONY: Yes, it was -- it was -- it hit you like a wave (ph). I mean, it was -- it was whatever it was, was very potent.
My mother and father told me that my dad actually drove the car back, because my mother was talking about how she didn`t know how my dad survived it because the smell was so bad.
(LAUGHTER)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t understand why they`re laughing. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Bombshell police audiotapes of witness interrogations -- those witnesses, three of the many men in mom, Casey`s, life -- just released.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Well, I kept saying, Well, I don`t get it. What`s in it for you? Why are you letting, you know, the police get involved with this? This seems -- this doesn`t make any sense to me. She`s, like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago. Stolen money from Mom. I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said, I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know? And she goes, And I have been a -- a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister. She said, you know, So this should have been done a long time ago.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple of years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said the sister told you that -- because I`m a spiteful (DELETED) And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or she just whispered that to you, or what was...
LEE ANTHONY: She doesn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it necessarily, make it a point to say it as loud as my mom can hear it. When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee? And she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What`s the latest, Drew?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, the latest are these new tapes. We read the interviews, the -- those almost 600 pages of interviews. These are some of the audio versions of those tapes. We hear from Lee Anthony. We hear from her current boyfriend at the time, Tony Lazzarro, and we also hear from her ex-fiance, Jesse Grund. And you know, some of the tapes contain, you know, some of the things we`ve been talking about that are, you know, very concerning in this investigation.
GRACE: Well, "concerning" is one way to put it. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Tonight, the audiotapes supporting what we have only had reported us to -- those audiotapes just released. We`re playing them right now. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Every time my mother would go outside, I`d try to ask something to my sister that maybe she wouldn`t feel comfortable saying in front of my mom, you know, asking, What`s -- you know, What`s going on? You know, What`s the deal? She still maintained everything, but (ph) she would say -- that`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right, maybe I am.
She offered up to me for the first time that my mother has referred -- said to my sister that even though Caylee`s been the best thing and the best mistake, that she was, indeed, a mistake, that she was Casey`s mistake.
When I kept saying, Well, I don`t get it. What`s in it for you? Why are you letting, you know, the police get involved with this? This seems - - this doesn`t make any sense to me. She`s, like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago. Stolen money from mom. I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said, I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know? And she goes, And maybe I have been a -- a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister. And she said, you know, So this should have been done a long time ago.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: What does that mean, "This should have been done a long time ago"? And now to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, what of this story that - - a whole new story that we`re hearing from mom, Casey Anthony, apparently telling her family little Caylee has been sold in Puerto Rico?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, Nancy, apparently, she managed to convince her mother that Caylee had been sold in Puerto Rico. We got some text messages in these documents between Casey`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund and her ex-friend, Amy Huizenga, who she stole the money and checks from. Apparently, Jesse was implying to Amy that a theory had been floated that Caylee was sold in Puerto Rico. Amy and several of her friends, including Casey`s ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales, had just been in Puerto Rico. But there`s no evidence to support that, according to the Orange County sheriff`s office.
GRACE: Just released, bombshell audiotapes of three of the many men in mom, Casey Anthony`s, life. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: I sat in the garage with my sister.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the car right there?
LEE ANTHONY: With the car right there. And it was atrocious. And I couldn`t be there anymore for a minute or two, and I had to keep going back inside because the smell was so bad. I sat down with her, and when I referenced the car smell, she said, Well, it actually started around Mom`s birthday, when -- which was again, June 5. She said, It started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You gave her a slap of reality.
LEE ANTHONY: So I gave her probably a good 10, 15 seconds to respond, until I gave her kind of like a shrugged shoulders look of, you know, What`s it going to be? What are you going say? And then at that moment is when Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days. And then she repeated herself. I haven`t seen my daughter in 31 days. And at this point, her hands are in her face. (INAUDIBLE) Her hands are in her face and she`s crying.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines. To Rose in New Jersey. Hi, Rose.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you this evening?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only sign of emotion I`ve seen from Casey Anthony is when she was first arrested and she was in the courtroom and she started to cry. Now, was she crying because she had lost her daughter, or was she crying because she was going jail?
GRACE: You know, Rose, our reporter said that during all the conversations regarding little Caylee, she remained stone-faced. When they started talking about her having to stay behind bars, that is when she started crying, according to our reporters.
Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." What about that, Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, and the other time she cries just now is when her brother gives her 15 seconds, and then she has a chance to decide whether or not he`s going call the police. And it`s at that point that she puts her face in her hands.
And you know, one of the things she keeps saying is the mom says, I`m an unfit mother. In a way, she`s saying, This is an excuse for all I`ve done. And then she says, This should have been done a long time ago. I think she`s trying to pin the police being called on check kiting and stealing money and stealing gas and all of that, doing a switcheroo instead of blaming it where it belongs, which is that her daughter is missing.
GRACE: You know -- to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the Anthony home in Orlando. Natisha, what is the word on all of the e-mails that were deleted right around the time little Caylee went missing.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Lee Anthony also told investigators that when he checked Casey`s e-mail account, all of the e- mails, even the spam, had been deleted prior to July 15, which is the day Casey had was finally brought home and she was found. So the only thing in there was July 15 and after that.
GRACE: To Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining us from Raleigh. Can you go back, Ben, and reconstruct those e-mails?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Absolutely, Nancy. There is nothing that gets erased. As you`ve heard on this show several times, when you erase something on your computer, all you do is mark that space as now available for other uses. So since she obviously didn`t use the computer between the 15th and the time she was arrested, most of those messages can be recovered.
GRACE: To Michael Sapraicone, former NYPD detective. Michael, thank you for being with us. Doesn`t anybody watch TV? Doesn`t anybody know you`ve got to go beat your computer in the front driveway with a sledgehammer if you want to get rid of this information that`s leaving a huge footprint. And she erased all these e-mails.
MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Right, Nancy. These things never go away. These are always there. This is are paper trail that police are always looking for. And the computer has just made it such an easy trail for us to track.
GRACE: And you know, why erase only the e-mails around the days Caylee went missing?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: My father was always -- you know, he would take pride in making sure that stuff`s clean inside. I mean, he always did that. And he would have noticed that smell. I mean, that was -- and I still maintain that. He would have noticed that smell.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: She had been crying. Now, it`s not bawling, mind you, she`d been crying. But when my mother came in and started, What`s going on, and when my sister said, I don`t know where Caylee is, and yet her voices escalates when my mom gets in the room almost combatively. My sister, when she explained that to my mom, I don`t know where Caylee is, and then my mother immediately goes, Who took her? Who took her? And then Casey goes, The nanny did. She was kidnapped, Mom. And then that`s when my mother kind of hit her fist on the bed and said, We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? And at that point, my sister is done crying. She`s -- now they`re fighting about, you know, this stuff in the past, instead of trying to focus on the information that we need to get.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are now hearing in their own words what happened when the Anthony family finds out little Caylee is missing. Tonight, bombshell audiotapes released. They are audiotapes of three of the many men in mom, Casey Anthony`s, life. And we can report it all we want to, but when you hear it in their own words it`s an entirely different thing.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of Atlanta, veteran defense attorney Peter Odom. Also with us tonight out of New York, high- profile lawyer and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" Mickey Sherman.
You know, Mickey Sherman, a lot of people are suggesting the state has leaked all this. What they are failing to realize -- and it`s the defense in this case that keeps saying things like that -- they are simply complying to discovery. They`re filing all this stuff, all of these tapes, all of these documents in the clerk`s office, as they are told to do under Florida statute, and then the media can get it. Nobody`s leaking anything!
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s something -- well, usually, they do leak it. It goes to somebody close to the detectives or something like that. Here they are basically dumping everything out into the public. Now...
GRACE: They filed it at the clerk`s office. You have a problem with that, Sherman?
SHERMAN: I have a big problem with that.
GRACE: That`s what the statute requires!
SHERMAN: Well, it`s wrong. How can this woman ever get a fair trial when we all know that she`s the crappiest mother on the face of the earth, coming from the creepiest family on the face of the planet? Everyone is totally biased against her. Maybe they should be. But the bottom line is, how could you possibly...
GRACE: I got...
SHERMAN: ... preserve her right to get a fair trial?
GRACE: ... two syllables for you, Sherman.
SHERMAN: Not guilty!
GRACE: O.J., all right?
SHERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: O.J.
SHERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: Everybody yelled, including you, He can`t get a fair trial. He`s going to get convicted.
SHERMAN: I never did.
GRACE: You did, too!
SHERMAN: No, I was one of the people who said he was going to be found not guilty. The bottom line is...
GRACE: But you said the whole jury would know about the trial. You did say that.
SHERMAN: Well, they`d have to be on Mars...
GRACE: You also said...
SHERMAN: ... not to know about it.
GRACE: ... he was going to be -- you did...
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: But it wasn`t -- it wasn`t...
GRACE: ... claim it was going to be a not guilty verdict. That part is true.
SHERMAN: But it wasn`t the DA who dumped all this stuff into the public knowledge.
GRACE: You know...
SHERMAN: There`s something wrong with that.
GRACE: ... Peter Odom -- Peter Odom, take off your defense hat just one moment and give me a straight answer. Isn`t it true that when you -- when your former prosecutor filed your discovery, which you have to do under the statute, you`ve got to give it all to the other side, to the defense prior to trial, didn`t you go file in the clerk`s office also?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, sometimes you do, but you also have the option...
GRACE: Whoa!
ODOM: ... of giving notice...
GRACE: You mean you didn`t file it in the clerk`s office every time?
ODOM: Not always.
GRACE: Why?
ODOM: Because sometimes there was information that we didn`t want made public. And this is information in this case that could have been kept out of the public view had the prosecutor...
GRACE: OK...
ODOM: ... wanted to.
GRACE: Give me...
ODOM: And they could have complied with discovery.
GRACE: ... the name of a case where you did not file your discovery in the clerk`s office.
ODOM: I can give you several, Nancy. In, for example...
GRACE: Give it!
ODOM: In, for example, the Tessler (ph) case that I tried in Atlanta, discovery was provided to the defense, but it was not filed with the clerk`s office and it was kept out of public view. And the only thing that is now available to public view are things that were entered into evidence at that trial. And that was quite a high-profile trial.
GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, it`s the first time when I`ve asked a defense attorney to name a case they`ve been able to do it. I disagree with you, but I respect that answer.
Let`s go to the lines. Pat in Illinois. Hi, Pat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Through all of this, for a girl who has lied about everything and really had no visible means of support, wouldn`t the -- wouldn`t there be a money trail? You know how they say in a case, Follow the money? Wouldn`t there be some type of a money trail of whether or not there was actually a baby-sitter paid? And how does someone who`s not working hire a nanny?
GRACE: You know, you are so dead on, Pat in Illinois. I mean, this woman was stealing from her friends just to put gas in the car.
Michael Sapraicone is with us, former NYPD. Michael, she`s right. This woman had to siphon gas out of her family`s cars to keep her car going. She doesn`t have a money trail. She didn`t pay a nanny. There was no nanny.
SAPRAICONE: Right. This is all part of her made-up story here, Nancy. And she`s obviously a pathological liar, and we`re seeing that more and more. And once you start that little lie, they build into bigger lies and bigger lies, and that`s the path she`s following.
GRACE: We`re talking about her deleting reams of e-mails the days around Caylee`s disappearance. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me that list of items again.
LEE ANTHONY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tony`s apartment at Sutton Place.
LEE ANTHONY: Yes. This was around midnight. I went and picked up my sister`s laptop. Well, it`s actually my mom`s laptop, but you know, my sister was -- she`s had it for that past month or so. So the laptop, a very large leopard print duffel bag that had all of her clothing and items in there, a backpack, a white backpack with kind of a -- you know, a pattern or, you know, a symbol on that. It also had some more clothing items in there. A large purse and some -- you know, some kind of, you know, female items, you know, things like that, like her toiletries and that kind of stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In your investigation, you found that your sister`s Yahoo! mail account from the date of July 15 has been deleted.
LEE ANTHONY: Yes. Every bit of mail sent, received...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that June 15 or July 15?
LEE ANTHONY: July 15.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So June 15 to July 15 exists, but from July 15 -- so did that kind of lead you...
LEE ANTHONY: No. No. I`m saying the information that`s in there now is July 15, 16, 17, 18, everything to present. Anything predating...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prior?
LEE ANTHONY: Yes. I`m sorry. So everything pre-dating July 15, nothing is in there. There`s no saved e-mails. There`s no spam. There`s no inbox messages. There`s no sent mail. There`s nothing. Everything predating July 15.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing prior?
LEE ANTHONY: Nothing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: She offered up to me for the first time that my mother has referred -- said to my sister that even though Caylee`s been the best thing and the best mistake, that she was indeed a mistake, that she was Casey`s mistake.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a very special guest -- we are taking your calls live -- Brittany Schieber, a neighbor of the Anthony family. Ms. Schieber, thank you for being with us.
BRITTANY SCHIEBER, ANTHONY FAMILY NEIGHBOR: You`re welcome. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Ms. Schieber, what has been the Anthonys` response after they learned about the human decomposition in the car?
SCHIEBER: Actually, I have not talked to them since the whole decomposition issue came up.
GRACE: How were they prior to that?
SCHIEBER: I actually only talked to Cindy the very first day that Caylee was reported missing, and they all were a wreck. But after that, I actually have not talked to them since.
GRACE: Is it true that Ms. Anthony told you Casey Anthony was going to Jacksonville to look for a job?
SCHIEBER: Yes, ma`am, that she had some -- something for her job she had to do and that she was going to be in Jacksonville for a month.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I never -- I didn`t know enough about Caylee and the pool. I knew that they like to -- and I knew that Caylee loved the pool, but I never actually seen Caylee in the pool.
Now I was under the understanding that they actually had to move the ladder because Caylee kept trying to get into the pool and things of that nature.
I believe at any point in time something possibly could have accidentally happened to Caylee and if something accidentally happened to Caylee, I literally believed that Casey would have an emotional breakdown, a mental breakdown to the point where I almost believe that she would take Caylee and put her somewhere and then -- tell herself a new story, a new reality of what happened to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, bombshell audiotapes have been released. They are police interrogations of three of the men in mom Casey Anthony`s life. We hear, in their own words, what happened around the time little Caylee went missing.
To Dr. Bethany Marshall -- Bethany, when someone has a breakdown, you don`t continue functioning normally. You don`t go out every night. You don`t party, you don`t have the wherewithal to lie and have a complete farce, 24/7, 365, that you`ve got a job at Universal.
That`s not what a breakdown is.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": No. You`re absolutely correct.
Jesse Grund does use the word mental breakdown and that implies a mental vulnerability, an unraveling. Maybe -- a mental breakdown is what we saw in the astronaut that drove all night in the diapers and then tried to get a hold of her supposed rival.
There was sort of an irrational chaotic aspect to her functioning. But, no, Casey was out on a stripper pole partying and having a good time. She`s not delusional and she`s not diluting herself even about her own spitefulness.
She says I`m a spiteful B-I-T-C-H, which implies that she knows that even though she didn`t want Casey, she didn`t want her mom and dad to have her either, and that is true malice and spite, not a mental breakdown.
GRACE: Back to the neighbor of the Anthony family, Brittany Schieber is with us tonight.
Welcome, Miss Schieber. Now, isn`t it true that Casey Anthony, after little Caylee went missing, invited you out to that hot body contest. Do you remember when that was?
BRITTANY SCHIEBER, NEIGHBOR OF ANTHONY FAMILY, HAS KNOWN TOT MOM SINCE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: I know it was between the 9th of June and the 25th because from the 9th to the 25th when -- was when she was actually contacting me about going out pretty much two days, three days a week.
GRACE: How long have you all known each other?
SCHIEBER: I`ve grown up with Casey since I was about 5.
GRACE: What do you make of all this, Brittany?
SCHIEBER: I don`t know what to make of all this. This is crazy to me because I actually never saw this coming.
GRACE: Who supported little Caylee? Who paid the bills and bought her diapers and clothes and food?
SCHIEBER: Well, I originally thought it was Casey, but until I talked to Cindy I found out it was Cindy.
GRACE: Were you ever aware that Casey Anthony was so jealous of her mother`s bond with little Caylee?
SCHIEBER: No. Never.
GRACE: It never showed?
SCHIEBER: Not at all. No. Not at all.
GRACE: Did she portray to you as well that she had that job at Universal?
SCHIEBER: Actually, we never spoke -- well, we spoke about getting things a couple of times but she would tell that she would work in the mornings and then I work at night, so our schedules were very different but she never told me where she worked.
GRACE: Brittany, the number of times she asked you to go out and party became more frequent?
SCHIEBER: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: When?
SCHIEBER: Well, like I said, she was contacting me between the 9th of June and the 25th of June and it was once, twice, three times a week depending on the week.
GRACE: Where would she want you to go?
SCHIEBER: To Club Fusion.
GRACE: Did you ever ask her who was taking care of Caylee?
SCHIEBER: No, I didn`t.
GRACE: Did she ever.
SCHIEBER: I assumed it was her parents.
GRACE: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
SCHIEBER: I.
GRACE: Go ahead.
SCHIEBER: No, I said I just assumed it was her parents.
GRACE: Did Cindy Anthony ever reveal to you that she believed her daughter Casey was hiding something about little Caylee`s disappearance?
SCHIEBER: Yes, she did. The morning of the 16th when I talked to Cindy she`d told me that she believed Casey was guilty of something and she did not know what, but she didn`t care if it ended up with Casey being behind bars for the rest of her life as long ass she got Caylee home.
GRACE: Did Miss Anthony ever describe jealousy problems between her and Casey Anthony?
SCHIEBER: Cindy, yes, she told me that her and Casey had issues with Caylee being closer to Cindy and that Casey was angry about it.
GRACE: Did she reveal that she had offered to adopt little Caylee?
SCHIEBER: Yes, she did. That way Casey could live her life, go out as much as she want to, and whenever she wanted to go back to be a full mother to Caylee, she could, but Casey refused.
GRACE: Did Casey become angry about it?
SCHIEBER: From what Cindy said, yes.
GRACE: When was that offer made?
SCHIEBER: I am not quite sure. I understand it was a few times, actually, but I`m not quite sure around the time period it was.
GRACE: Have you seen a change in demeanor of George and Cindy Anthony during this time?
SCHIEBER: Cindy, yes, because when I first -- like I said, she was tore up, like she barely could speak. She couldn`t get herself together. I never saw George at beginning, but now Cindy has had a complete change, yes.
GRACE: With us tonight is a special guest, a long time neighbor of the Anthony family, has known Casey Anthony since they were little children. We are playing just-released audiotapes of police interrogation of three of the men in mom Casey Anthony`s life.
Here is her ex-fiance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRUND: Caylee loved that playhouse. That was like her own little house. She loved everything about it. She had her own little phone in there. She had her own kitchen set. I mean she absolutely and totally loved the playhouse.
Every time I`d go outside and play with Caylee, every time I`d get the chance, it was right to the playhouse. Every time. She spent a lot of time out there, with her grandparents and with Casey.
I believe that Casey -- if something would have happened to her, that would have been the first place that she would have put Caylee if she wanted to place Caylee`s body somewhere.
Could she have ripped off the wrong person there or pissed off the wrong person? Absolutely. Could she become a drug user to appease Tony? She became a Yankee fan to appease me and she hates the Yankees.
She does things to chameleon -- she`s like a chameleon when she`s with a guy. You know, Ricardo smokes pot, she starts smoking pot when she`s with Ricardo. You know? I -- my family is Christian, she started doing things in regards to religious practices with us to fit in with our family.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Mom blurts out something, kind of put you in an embarrassing way. Can you tell me about that again?
GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something and I stuck up for Casey and I said, please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that and I love your daughter, and then she immediately just throws Casey under the bus, a proverbial term, just lays her out there.
How do you want to be with somebody who`s got no future? She didn`t even go back to get her high school education. You know? She`s got a job at a place where she doesn`t really even make enough money to support Caylee.
I`m doing -- I`m the one supporting Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: The 27th Casey calls you?
GRUND: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Worried about you.
GRUND: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Due to your situation.
GRUND: Correct, yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: And she wanted you to go to Fusion.
GRUND: Correct. Yes, sir. I declined, and I asked her -- well, first I asked her, well, where`s Caylee? Why -- you know you`re going to Fusion? At this point I know that she had a falling out with her mother.
How -- who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Cindy in Maryland, hi, Cindy.
CINDY, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CINDY: I would like to know a little bit about this Amy, her friend? How come she was using Amy`s car if she has a car and who nowadays keeps checks in their car?
GRACE: OK.
CINDY: Most people.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Nikki Pierce. Why was she using Amy`s car?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Amy Huizinga had left and gone to Puerto Rico on vacation and allowed Casey to use the car while she was gone. By that time Casey had already abandoned her own car having her boyfriend at the time Tony Lazzaro come and pick her up.
She told Tony that she`d run out of gas, which we now know is probably not the case.
GRACE: You know, I know it`s crazy, but instead of borrowing someone else`s car there`s always the alternative of filling up the tank, but that is exactly why she was borrowing Amy Huizinga`s car.
Everyone, as we go to break, we are taking your calls live and I want to send out a special thank you to June Pace, my childhood bible school teacher from my little church in Macon, Georgia, for sending me a set of matching angels, one pink and one blue holding a little boy and girl.
Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: (INAUDIBLE) thing is, on the receipts that you located that your sister had here. Nothing strikes you being normal purchases for a baby?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: No, no diapers, no.
ANTHONY: Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: . juice boxes, no.
ANTHONY: Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Your niece was not potty trained?
ANTHONY: Not completely no. She was still using diapers.
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: He would wake up and - - or wake me up either in the middle of the night or I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed, and I would ask her why and she said that she would have -- she was having a nightmare or something and then would bring up a nightmare pertaining to our relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: So how often did she wake up like that?
LAZZARO: Actually, she would actually be -- I`d say that happened a couple of times.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: OK.
LAZZARO: I would say maybe two, maybe four times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Audiotapes just released as part of Florida statute discovery requirements and now we are hearing in their own words not just reports. We are hearing in their own words what three of the men in mom Casey Anthony`s life had to say about the time little Caylee went missing.
We are taking your calls live and we`re playing you those audiotapes, practically as we get them in. They have just been released in the last hours.
Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist at John J. College of Criminal Justice., a famed forensic scientist now on the payroll of the defense.
Kobi, that aside, the waters have largely subsided around the area where little Caylee went missing. If her remains were there, say, in a wooded area what would you expect to find at this point?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, Nancy, a body immersed in water will decomposed at a rate about half as fast as if a body were exposed to the air, but as the water recedes the decomposition rate speeds up, scavengers are present, bones that are left behind may be dispersed in various areas in these wooded areas.
Clothing may be scattered here and there and again, we really don`t know what the situation is. This is a hypothetical. I hope to God that the child is still alive.
GRACE: I want to go to bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first posted the half a million dollar bail to release mom Casey Anthony from jail. He later came off that bond. Leonard Padilla is with us.
Leonard, I was thinking when I showed the little angel that a bible school teacher has sent me that Caylee will never have those memories, those happy childhood memories.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: No, that`s.
GRACE: None of that.
PADILLA: That`s for sure. I`ve got six grandsons and I run roll call just about every day if not twice a day, but let me explain something to you about the people that still think she`s alive.
They are precluding, forgetting the FBI lab and the University of Tennessee air samples.
GRACE: What`s the cause.
PADILLA: And the other thing.
GRACE: . is because they want to.
PADILLA: I know. I know, but you have to be factual about these things.
GRACE: Yes.
PADILLA: . and you have to understand. There is a recyclable -- recycling bin where she parked the car.
GRACE: Like a dumpster?
PADILLA: Exactly.
GRACE: There is a large bin for just your regular dumping. If you go to the recycling company and find out if they excluded any bins that were brought in on the 27th, 28th or 29th, to be recycled because if there`s a dead cat or dead dog or something in there that does not allow the proper sorting of the recyclable materials, they will tag it and set it off the site and then take it out to the land fill, I believe, is where they take it.
Now I don`t know if law enforcement has looked at that angle or not, but I`m telling you, because of the clothes that she had that the mom washed right away, that is probably a good, good alternative to big bin which might have been difficult for her to put the stuff in.
When that garbage bag that had the body in broke, that`s what got stuff all over her clothes.
Another thing that you brought up last night, she -- you know there`s always some truths in what Casey says. When she said that Universal gave her the cell phone, the cell phone was given, but not by Universal. It was given to her by Richard Grund.
There`s always a speck of truth in everything she says. The phone was, yes, given to her, but not by Universal. Richard Grund gave her that phone.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, have you seen that to be a common practice amongst pathological liars that there`s a tiny thread of truth they kind of stick with, I guess, to keep the story straight in their own mind?
MARSHALL: Yes, they -- they pick up on bits and pieces of the truth and they weave a big story out of it, but the other thing to understand, pathological liars lie not because they feel guilty or that they`re afraid of getting into trouble.
They lie to con and manipulate and because they know that they`re out of step with society. So in deleting the e-mails, in waking up boo hooing in the middle of the night to Lazzaro, it was not because she was frightened, it`s because she wanted to rob others of the opportunity to make independent decisions about all of her crazy, nefarious behavior.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman, out of Atlanta, New York, respectively.
Mickey, what effect will the release of these audiotapes have, if any?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, I don`t think it`s going to have the desired effect of saying to her, well, I better confess, and I don`t think it`s going to bring anybody else out of the woodwork, except for friends and neighbors who were just kind of getting on the show.
The problem is, again, that I have from the defense point of view or from the justice point of view, believe it or not, is that it just infects the entire prospective jury pool when and if she ever gets arrested.
I don`t think it moves the ball closer to finding out where this child is or if she`s alive or dead.
GRACE: Peter, agree?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Precisely. This is really just tainting the jury pool. It doesn`t have any investigative purpose and the jury is going to hear most of this anyway by the time it gets to trial.
GRACE: So bottom line, you guys say no effect.
Back to Brittany Schieber, neighbor of the Anthony family. Casey Anthony sent you a text back on July 16th. What did it say?
SCHIEBER: Yes. It`s -- just informed me that Caylee was missing for 32 days and if I had any information to either contact her cell or her home phone.
GRACE: Why would she think you had any information?
SCHIEBER: I couldn`t even tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight out to neighbor of the Anthony family, Brittany Schieber, with us tonight.
Brittany, on July 16th, Cindy Anthony came to tell you personally about little Caylee missing. What did she say?
SCHIEBER: She basically wanted to inform me that Caylee was missing and just what everybody had -- Casey informed me of she`s missing for 32 days. That she hasn`t seen Casey or talked to Casey for over a month and just found her.
GRACE: Did they really buy Casey Anthony`s story that she did her own search for the girl?
SCHIEBER: I guess so.
GRACE: Do you?
SCHIEBER: No, I don`t, honestly.
GRACE: You`re a single mom yourself. Your child was just about a month different in age as little Caylee. Did you find it unusual that mom Casey could go out and party every night?
SCHIEBER: I did, because I never even have the chance to because I`m always either with my son or working. So for somebody my age, we can`t party all the time. It was very awkward to me.
GRACE: Brittany, thank you for being with us.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Merlin German, 22, Manhattan, New York. Known as the miracle man, endured over 100 surgeries and learned to walk again. Suffered severe burns over 97 percent of his body in a roadside bomb attack, Iraq.
Remembered for his laughs, spirit and encouraging others. Awarded the Purple Heart. Loved Yankees, playing the sax, hip-hop, children. Started a charity called Merlin`s Miracles to help burn victims. Leaves behind parents, Lourdes and Hemery.
Merlin German, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Special good night from California, friend of the show, Josh, and New York friends, Patty and Ken. Now there`s a fine looking bunch.
And a special happy birthday to two of our stars, Dana and Ben.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
