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Nancy Grace
Witness List for Possible Casey Anthony Trial Revealed
Aired September 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police and prosecutors painstakingly building a case against mom, Casey Anthony. And tonight, just revealed, the state`s witness list. Over 80 witnesses listed to prove a case at trial against mom, Casey, in the disappearance of 3-year-old Caylee, the line-up including the obvious -- the Anthony family, mom Casey`s cohorts, her multiple boyfriends, all set to confirm mom, Casey`s, web of lies about little Caylee`s whereabouts. This as the Orange County sheriff announces the investigation could proceed as a homicide even without a body.
And tonight, more stunning police interrogation. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony caught on tape. Have police ended the search for Caylee? Are they convinced she`ll never be found alive? Tonight, where is 3-year- old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE CTY SHERIFF`S INVESTIGATOR: We spent the first day of the investigation with the mother prior to her arrest. We talked to her for a couple of hours. The initial information that she gave us, we called -- of course, a lot of what she told us when we first began talking to her turned out to be false information.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: And there are certain things that the family can`t say. There are certain things that we do know. There are certain things that Casey knows that she can`t tell. But you know, frankly, there`s not a whole lot of people that we trust.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe. And I got to believe her that she knows everything is OK.
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, CAYLEE`S ALLEGED NANNY: I want the truth to come out. I want them to know that I didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for a Zanny?
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not sure. But my -- I have two theories, and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now -- that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I would use the word "diabolical" to describe the way she lies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SHERIFF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY, FL: That`s a very sensitive case, and it always is tough that if you end up going down that path of not -- of working a homicide case without a body, it`s even tougher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a beautiful young Arizona woman, Anne Carver, heads out for a morning jog with her dog. Just 30 minutes later, the dog shows back up, leash still attached, but no Anne Carver. Tonight, what happened to the 34-year-old Arizona beauty?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, it`s a helpless feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the family of Anne Carver...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just like she vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... waiting for word on the 34-year-old woman`s whereabouts is stressful. Her disappearance is baffling. Anne went missing early Monday morning when her family says she went for a jog with her pet dog, Xena. Anne`s dog returned home wearing her leash, but Anne never did. Police launched helicopters to search the neighborhood, while Anne`s family tried to gather clues from Anne`s unharmed pet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she -- she knows something is -- something is fishy. I wish she could talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s really pretty far out of bounds. I mean, we would not expect anything like this from her at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful, 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEARY: It`s not "Walker Texas Ranger," where you can go to the computer and get DNA and all that in three seconds. It doesn`t work that way. And so we`re going to do -- do it by the book and do it right the first time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think this is her being truthful?
LEE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S UNCLE: To the best of her ability right now, I do. Frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think that she was trying to cooperate with me.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: When I asked her, why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Zanny is the baby-sitter that has watched Caylee consistently for the last maybe year-and-a-half. Nobody that you met, so - - there was no reason to meet her.
GONZALEZ: I wouldn`t even trust my family (INAUDIBLE) it is right now because my name is involved.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GRUND: Could she have ripped off the wrong person there or pissed off the wrong person? Absolutely. Could she have become a drug user to appease Tony? She became a Yankee fan to appease me, and she hates the Yankees. She does things to chameleon -- she`s, like, a chameleon when she`s with a guy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: She would wake up and -- or wake me up even in the middle of the night or I just would wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why. And she said that she was having a nightmare or something.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your facts straight!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Finally revealed, the state`s witness list, over 80 people in line to testify in the state`s case against mom, Casey Anthony. The disappearance of her little girl has been a long time coming.
Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What`s the latest, Drew?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, first off, is that list is 82 people, ranges from, you know, all the people that we`ve seen play prominent roles in this case -- her mother, Cindy, her dad, George, and her brother, Lee. There`s also all the people that we`ve seen in these audio and videotapes throughout the investigation -- her friends, her roommates, her lovers, the boys that she, you know, spent the night at their houses. There`s also about 30 people that are on there that are -- that carry the title Orange County Sheriff`s Office. So they`re obviously, you know, part of the sheriff`s office. And they also play into this case, as well.
GRACE: I`ve gone through the witness list extensively. There are over 80 witnesses listed here. A lot of them are self-explanatory, such as the Anthony family. I also see on here -- out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Jeff Hopkins, Jeff Hopkins II. Now, isn`t it true that mom, Casey Anthony, claims that is how she met Zenaida Gonzalez?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s true, Nancy. She said that she worked with Jeff Hopkins at Kodak, at Universal, and that he introduced her to Zenaida, who was a nanny for him and his child. We know that that is not the case, that Jeff Hopkins was a real person, but the circumstances, Casey made up.
GRACE: Now, isn`t it true -- out to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the Anthony home there in Orlando. Natisha, isn`t it true that not only does mom, Casey Anthony, state that she met the imaginary nanny through Jeff Hopkins, she claimed a co-worker, she later added to the story and said that she and Jeff Hopkins had dated, and he essentially had a baby that Zanny baby-sat for, and they kind of threw Caylee in, into the mix for free, that Zenaida Gonzalez was baby-sitting Caylee and somebody else?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. The story was that he had this son, Zachary, and they were close to the same age as Caylee, and all three of them would go off to the beach and other places together, and once again, that she was introduced through Jeffrey Hopkins.
GRACE: And what does Jeff Hopkins say about that, Natisha Lance?
LANCE: Well, we`ve actually spoken to Jeffrey Hopkins`s father, and he indicated to us that he kind of knew Casey in high school but he hadn`t even worked at Universal in quite some time and he did not recall his son working there with Casey Anthony at all.
GRACE: And of course, he did not introduce Zenaida Gonzalez to mom, Casey Anthony.
LANCE: No, absolutely not.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. Out to Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." Dr. Glass, the intensity and the intricacy of her elaborate lies -- I mean, they can clearly be proven wrong, even where -- I mean, the lies get more and more fantastic.
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, it`s really fascinating to watch. She...
GRACE: I mean, wait -- hold on. Lillian, wait.
GLASS: Sure.
GRACE: In fact, she doesn`t just say, Oh, I met the baby-sitter through this guy I used to work with. Then it goes on. And then he was dating the nanny and then he and the nanny broke up.
GLASS: Right.
GRACE: And then I started dating him, and then I got the nanny for free. She continued taking care of his child and my child. I`m his new girlfriend. It doesn`t make any sense. The lies get bigger and crazier and crazier.
GLASS: Exactly. And when people lie, when there`s deception, they go on and on like that. They spin tales. And you wonder if there`s some type of sociopathy going on. She is scary!
GRACE: You know, everyone, we now have more interrogation by police. We also have tonight the state`s witness list just revealed. I want you to hear some more of this police interrogation, George and Cindy Anthony caught on tape. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she actually told you on the 16th, I plan on staying at Zanny`s for a late event.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Most definitely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom starts calling. Apparently, Mom says that she had some form of a big deal going on at work, a convention, so they were staying at the Hard Rock Hotel.
GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s what she told us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I mean, that`s what my wife reiterated to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t have those conversations, just your wife?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then there was -- they had to move that to Busch Gardens, Tampa area?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s where Zanny got in her car accident?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Supposedly, Zanny got in this car accident. Casey was following at some distance behind her, and Zanny got involved in this accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hospitalized at Tampa General?
GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s what we were told.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Treated for a concussion?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then the next day, the ER nurse discovered a large laceration behind the ear and had to treat that?
GEORGE ANTHONY: And kept her, I guess, an extra day or something, if I remember correctly, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And here we hear an explanation of why mom, Casey Anthony, was going back and forth and back and forth to Tampa.
I want to go back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Here she is confronted by her father about stealing the gas cans. And she says, Oh, I`ve got to go back and forth because my imaginary nanny had an imaginary car crash in Tampa and I`m going to see her in the hospital. I mean, here we actually have her caught explaining why she needed all that gasoline, Drew Petrimoulx.
PETRIMOULX: Right. And investigators went back and they checked the hospital and there was no record of her ever being in that hospital. There was really no record that she ever had any contact with a Zenaida Gonzalez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Any time Caylee ever stayed away from the house, Casey said she was with Zanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: And it wasn`t that often that -- you know, maybe a night here or there, sporadically. But she always said she was crashing at Zanny`s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George drove her white car, and he had hit something and killed it because the car was starting to stink.
CINDY ANTHONY: She said it was a squirrel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she started telling me stories from the 25th on. Why -- I just want to plant the seed, OK? You don`t have to answer. Why would you do that? Why would you try and pass off the smell? Because we all know that there was a smell in the car. I`m not here to dispute what the smell was, OK? We all know there was a very bad smell in the car. Why would she start to say to her friends and text message -- we have text messages. Why would she say, Hey, I think my dad, you know, hit something with the car, and then later on say, yes, it looks like my dad hit something with the car and the car stinks?
CINDY ANTHONY: I have no idea.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I made a report to the Orange County Sheriff`s Department. Now you`ve got the cans. Why do you have them? Well, I`ve been driving them back and forth to Tampa to see Zanny. And I`m, like, Wait a second. You`re supposed to be working, but now you`re in Tampa. This don`t make no sense to me.
And I said, Listen, I`m not going to deal with this right now, but where`s Caylee? What`s going on? You know, I believe I need to know. I`ll talk to you and Mom later. Sure enough, she gets in her car and takes off. I had the gas cans because she handed them to me. I did not look in the trunk because the distance from where I was at -- she (INAUDIBLE) just handed them to me and slammed the trunk right away.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live now. We are getting -- not only the state`s witness list has just been released, over 80 people lined up to testify against mom, Casey Anthony, in the disappearance of her little girl, Caylee, also tonight, more stunning police interrogation has now been released. There you heard, as we were just coming in, the Anthonys being confronted about why mom, Casey, was lying about the smell of death in her car.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, former prosecutor Holly Hughes out of Atlanta, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney also out of Atlanta, and from New York, Alex Sanchez.
So Holly, there we have, clearly, the parents claiming they have not been using the car. So we know that her story about a dead animal is a lie. It is a lie, which backs up the cadaver dog findings.
HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Nancy, everything this girl says is a lie. How do we know she`s lying? Her lips are moving. She cannot tell the truth to save her own life, let alone her child`s. The cadaver dogs hit. They are specially trained to only hit on human remains. So if it wasn`t Caylee in her car, what other dead body was she transporting?
GRACE: Let`s go to the defense lawyers. We are taking your calls live. To Raymond Giudice. Ray, let`s talk about legal ethics for a moment. I assume that you two defense attorneys are familiar with that concept, legal ethics. If a client comes to you, Ray, and says, Yes, I was responsible, it`s an accident and the body is hidden here, what duty is on the defense attorney because that is an ongoing crime?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. Listen, that`s the biggest problem a defense lawyer could ever have. The first answer is, Is there a chance that somebody else could be harmed? In this case, no. Secondly, an ongoing investigation, as counsel I might have to withdraw or I might have to let another counsel come in to take sort of that second part of the case forward and counsel with the client as to what to do. It`s a terrible problem. And you respect a lot of us defense lawyers, Nancy.
GRACE: True.
GIUDICE: And you know that that would put us in a terrible bind on our constitutional obligation to the client, the system, but also to Lady Justice.
GRACE: So Ray, now you`re going a little too far because I`ve never in all the years I`ve seen you practice law ever heard the words "lady" and "justice" put together out of your mouth in one sentence! Don`t go that far.
GIUDICE: Nancy, you cut me off too early so often.
GRACE: All right? Alex Sanchez, practically speaking -- I appreciate the professorial lecture I just heard, but practically speaking, Alex, when somebody comes in, your client, in your office and tells you this, you`re really going to go to prosecutors say, Here`s where the body is?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. As a matter of fact, if you decided to go to the prosecutors and reveal that information, you could be brought up on charges before the bar association.
GRACE: You could lose your license.
SANCHEZ: And you can lose your license. So unfortunately...
GRACE: But it is, Alex...
SANCHEZ: ... the state (ph) of the law does not give...
GRACE: ... an ongoing crime.
SANCHEZ: ... permission for them to do it.
GRACE: It is an ongoing crime to continue allowing a body, a human body, to be buried somewhere and you know where the body is concealed.
SANCHEZ: No, but it is not one`s obligation as an attorney to reveal secrets to the police. The only thing you`re allowed to do is to remain silent. You may want to encourage your client to speak to the police and have them come clean. But if he doesn`t want to...
GRACE: And have her charged with murder one...
SANCHEZ: ... come clean, that`s it.
GRACE: ... and look at the Florida death penalty? That`s what you want to encourage your client to do?
SANCHEZ: No, I`m saying that you simply have to advise your client what his options are, and most likely, he will remain silent, as what your recommendation would be.
GRACE: So Ray, what do you do? In light of your earlier lecture, what would you do if your client comes in?
GIUDICE: Well, one thing I might do -- yes, I might see if I can get my client`s permission to approach the prosecution with a hypothetical -- If we had information that could lead to prosecution to the body, what would that lead do for my client? Totally hypothetical. Of course, Nancy, we`d want to deal with an ethical prosecutor like yourself or Holly to approach that. There are some prosecutors I would not approach that.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Let`s go to Dana in Georgia. Hi, Dana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. Love you to death!
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of a two-part question. Number one, I want to know what the timeline from when Grandma called in the vehicle to when the police actually seized it or began testing it for DNA, and if there was time for a clean-up in between that time. And if there was time for a clean-up, if the chloroform found in the vehicle would have been able to be used to degrade or cause discrepancies in the DNA results findings.
GRACE: Let`s head the chloroform question first to famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Kobilinsky, I might add, has signed on to the Casey Anthony defense team. Will chloroform break down DNA, Dr. Kobilinsky?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: No, not at all, Nancy. In fact, chloroform is one of those chemicals that we actually use to clean up a specimen and isolate DNA. All crime labs doing DNA use chloroform in combination with some other chemicals. It will not degrade DNA.
GRACE: And to Nikki Pierce. What about the timeline as to when the car was towed and when the car was cleaned out?
PIERCE: The car was towed in late June, and the Anthonys didn`t get it back until mid-July, I think the day of or the day before they called the police. But there certainly was time to clean out the car. As a matter of fact, we`ve heard some reports that neighbors say that they saw it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: It did seem like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not -- one thing I know is she loves that child.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I have, like, seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing to Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person that I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut, and that would threaten us, because he`s that type of person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A motive? Out to former fed with the FBI Mike Brooks joining us tonight. What is the motive that Jesse Grund, a former fiance and lover of mom, Casey, would have to do away with, sell, kidnap, hide little Caylee?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: There is absolutely nothing, Nancy. I mean, this woman missed her calling. Casey Anthony should have been a fiction writer. But no, there`s no motive whatsoever for Jesse Grund to have any part in this.
GRACE: So Dr. Lillian Glass, why is Cindy Anthony, grandmother Cindy Anthony, pointing the finger elsewhere?
GLASS: Well, she`s already lost the love of her life, that little granddaughter, and she doesn`t want to lose her daughter. She doesn`t want to lose Casey. So she`s pointing the finger. But she knows what`s going on deep inside.
GRACE: Back to Dana in Georgia`s question. I can I think I`ve got the timeline. The 911 call was 9:00 PM July 15. The arrest of mom, Casey, was that night around midnight. The car was found June 27, towed the 30th, and picked up the 15th of July and impounded two days later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
POLICE: When you guys picked up the car, what else in the car that may not have been in the car when we -- when we inventoried it?
GEORGE: You guys are aware of the smell of the car?
POLICE: Well, I`m trying to tip toe around that issue. Because I know it`s a sensitive one.
GEORGE: I`ve just got to tell you my feelings. I don`t like how it smells. I`m being straight with you guys.
POLICE: I`m sorry?
GEORGE: I don`t like the smell of the car. I`m being straight with you guys.
POLICE: We didn`t like the smell, either.
GEORGE: I`m being straight and honest.
POLICE: We appreciate that, George and we wouldn`t share that with anyone.
POLICE: Yes, because that`s a difficult topic for you.
GEORGE: It`s tough. You know, stuff has got to come out. That`s the way it is. I`m not going to hold back.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very sensitive case, and it always is tough that if you end up going down that path of not -- of working -- working a homicide case without a body, it`s even tougher. I would like it to come just as fast as everybody else. However, it`s not "Walker, Texas Ranger", where you can go to the computer and get DNA and all that in three seconds. It doesn`t work that way. And so we`re going to do -- do it by the book and do it right the first time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California who first put the bond up for Casey Anthony and has been involved ex actively with the Anthony case investigators. Leonard, do you believe the family is geared up for a murder/arrest?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I think they are living in a fictional world. As far as a murder/arrest, they don`t think it will come about, because they don`t have a body. And as long as they can keep a body from being brought forth, they feel quite confident. Now, going back to the night of the 15th when Casey and her mom Cindy got in that big row at the house, that`s what started the whole problem. George wasn`t home that night, and he didn`t se her leave the next morning, because Casey left with her child and spent that night out just talking to Tony, talking to anybody who would talk to her. So that`s where the whole big predicament started. If they hadn`t been feeling guilty for having caused her to leave, we wouldn`t be where we`re at today. Cindy is lying, because she caused her to leave that house that night, and she blames herself for the baby being dead. And she knows it, and George is the second biggest victim in this whole situation. And she knows it.
GRACE: You know, I`m not convinced that the Anthonys truly believe the child is dead, Leonard?
PADILLA: Yep, they absolutely do. Cindy sat with myself and Rob.
GRACE: I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?
PADILLA: They absolutely do. Because Cindy sat with myself and Rob, Toby and Miguel, when we told her, the baby is dead, and there was no reaction as far as denying it. She just didn`t know what to do or where to go or how to handle it. But she knows the baby is dead.
GRACE: Then why do they continue saying the child is in Puerto Rico or Mexico.
PADILLA: They have to get away from the truth. They can`t live with the truth. Cindy should go back to the realization that she is the one that caused Casey to leave the house that night. If she would realize that .
GRACE: I disagree with you, Leonard. You don`t make somebody else do something. Casey - Mom Casey Anthony was already leaving the house and shacking up with one guy after the next. Where she was keeping the child, I don`t know. But her mother did not make her do these things. They may have had an argument, but she was acting on her own volition.
PADILLA: Cindy put her hands around Casey`s throat and practically choked her out that night. It scared the hell out of Casey. It had never happened before.
GRACE: Why?
PADILLA: Because of the money she stole from her parents. She was so upset about that, that she just could not control herself, and if you listen to George, he`ll tell you, he lives -- he lives with a controlling woman and a controlling daughter.
GRACE: Now, where did you get the information that she actually put her hands around mom Casey`s throat?
PADILLA: You can ask Casey`s brother, Lee. He`ll tell you.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s go out to Jane in New Hampshire. Hi, Jane.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
CALLER: My question is regarding the nanny. Casey is the only person we know who has seen this woman. Why hasn`t she been asked by the police to sit down with a sketch artist and to compose a picture of this woman to pass around to all of the areas that Casey said that Zani took Caylee and to the apartment complex where Zani was supposedly living?
GRACE: To your knowledge, Mike Brooks, has there been a composite of this Zenaida Gonzalez drawn?
BROOKS: No, Nancy, because there is no person -- they`ve already talked to Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: And how would that hinder the police investigation, Mike Brooks, if police put out a false composite and they have some cockamamie story of Momcasey Anthony?
BROOKS: Well, she has not told the truth since day one.
GRACE: How would it hurt the investigation to put out such a sketch?
BROOKS: You can put out a sketch of somebody she has made up in her fictional mind and if it matches somebody very close, you`re going to get more calls. Would it hurt anything, probably not. But I think it`s a waste of time.
GRACE: I think it would hurt if police absolutely do not believe it`s true. And then when you go to trial, Mike Brooks, think ahead. Think ahead. Say there is a trial in the future for murder, and as the sheriff intimated today. Then you`ve got the defense saying, well, hey, as late as so-and-so, they believed that there was a Zenaida Gonzalez. They even put out the sketch for her.
BROOKS: We know there is no Zenaida Gonzalez, so as you said right at first, it would be a waste of time.
GRACE: Speaking of no Zenaida Gonzalez, to Drew Petrimoulx of WDBO, Zenaida Gonzalez is on this witness list. To say what?
PETRIMOULX: Well, I mean, to say that there is not a Zenaida Gonzalez is not entirely true. There is a woman with the name Zenaida Gonzalez and finally she made an appearance on TV and is suing Casey Anthony for defamation, because she says she has no idea who Casey is, she has no idea who Caylee is, they drug her into this, it`s ruined her life and so there is a Zenaida Gonzalez and imagine that`s the person they plan on interviewing come the trial.
GRACE: She has actually filed a defamation lawsuit against Momcasey Anthony, saying it`s ruined her life and job potential. What about it, Alex Sanchez? Does she have a chance?
SANCHEZ: I think she does have a chance. Because she has put an innocent person in the public eye and basically destroyed her opportunities for work or future relationships or future babysitting opportunities or whatever she does, and she was an innocent party. She has a perfect right to sue.
GRACE: Well, there are her hands. There she is, this is Zenaida Gonzalez, suing Momcasey Anthony. What about it, Giudice?
GIUDICE: If she gets a judgment and there is any other profits for the defendant, the criminal defendant in this case, she may be able to recover, but personally, I think the judgment is worthless if it`s ever obtained.
GRACE: But my question is does she have a legal .
GUIDICE: I said yes.
GRACE: You did? OK. You were cut off at the beginning. Holly?
HUGHES: I agree, unfortunately, with the defense attorney, which I hate to do. But I do think she has a great case. I mean, she was adamant about this, she put that woman`s name out there, she kept saying it over and over, it`s a distinctive name, Nancy. She has damaged her, and I think she has got a great case.
GRACE: Also on this witness list, everybody, just released, an 80- plus witness list by the state who are all going to testify against Momcasey Anthony. We see on here, Jesse Grund. Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance. What will he have to say at trial, Natisha Lance?
LANCE: Well, one of the things that he will probably say, Nancy is one of the things he said in his statement, which is that Casey was a diabolical liar, and she was a chameleon, she would morph into something else, every time that she was around a different guy. He said for instance, he liked the Yankees, so Casey started lying the Yankees, even though she hated the Yankees, so depending on what crowd she was caught up in, could end up doing certain things that might not be within her normal character.
GRACE: I think also he will probably testify that Momcasey Anthony, said he was the biological father of little Caylee Anthony, which turned out to be false. Everybody, we have also gotten our mitts on more police interrogation. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE: Casey pops in the door. I hear the garage door open, here comes Casey. And I think I startled her sort of being there, because my car was inside the garage. But she comes in, and she says, hey, dad, how are you doing, I don`t have too much time, I have to go back to work for an event. And I said, wait a second, where is Caylee, what`s going on? Oh, she is staying with Zani. I said, you know, we haven`t seen the girl in over a week, it would sure be nice to hear her little voice.
Dad, I don`t have time for it. I`ve got 10 minutes, I`ve got to get back to work.
The 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together, they were both leaving with backpacks and my daughter said she was going to work and taking Caylee to the -- to the nanny. To the babysitter. But I know it was 10 minutes to 1:00, because I was watching this Food Channel thing that I watch between noon and 1:00. So -- I`m positive. That I can for a dog gone fact.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, it`s a helpless feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the family of Ann Carver .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like she vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Waiting for word on the 34-year-old woman`s whereabouts is stressful. Her disappearance is baffling. Ann went missing early Monday morning, when her family says she went for a jog with her pet dog, Xena. Ann`s dog returned home wearing her leash, but Ann never did. Police launched helicopters to search the neighborhood while Ann`s family tried to gather clues from Ann`s unharmed pet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she knows something is -- that she -- I wish she could talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s really -- we would not expect anything like this from her at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What happened to this Arizona beauty? Out to Claudia Rivero with KTVK. Claudia, what happened?
CLAUDIA RIVERO, KTVK REPORTER: We just don`t know at this point. There are so many questions in this story, Nancy. We just don`t know at this point. But I can tell you that the Gilbert Police department is in charge of this investigation. Gilbert is about 25 to 30 miles east of Phoenix. This young lady, 34-year-old Ann Carver, lived at this home behind me with her parents. She had been living here with them for about a month. They told us that yesterday morning, about 5:00 a.m., she left to go on that walk with her dog, and that she hasn`t been seen yet. Hasn`t been seen ever since.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Claudia. Was that her typical routine?
RIVERO: No. According to her parents, this was not something she did every day. She would occasionally go out for a jog early in the morning or a walk. She would take the dog. But this was not something she was accustomed to doing every single day.
GRACE: I mean, 5:00 a.m. is pretty radical to get up and go for a jog that early. Joining me right now is the brother of the missing jogger. Ann Carver. Tyler Williams is with us. Thank you for being with us. Mr. Williams, what do you know at this juncture?
TYLER WILLIAMS, ANN CARVERY`S BROTHER: You bet, Nancy. We don`t know a whole lot. Unfortunately, there`s just not really much information out there right now.
GRACE: Did she typically go out to run at 5:00 a.m.?
WILLIAMS: I wouldn`t say that she did it every day. She went out occasionally. You have to understand, in Arizona, it`s pretty hot, especially even still this time of year. And actually, early morning is one of the more popular times to get out and exercise, and, you know, it was a little early. It`s a little dark still at that time right now. But, yeah, it wouldn`t be unheard of to go out at that time of the day.
GRACE: What time does she have to be at work?
WILLIAMS: She usually is at work around -- I think 8:00. 8:00 or 9:00.
GRACE: What does she do for a living?
WILLIAMS: She`s a professional here in Phoenix.
GRACE: Doing what?
WILLIAMS: We`re just kind of leaving it at that right now, Nancy. We`re trying to really focus on Ann, and her safe return.
GRACE: Well, don`t you think that knowing more about her would help people as far as whether they had seen her in the area, in the restaurant, in the office building where she worked?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And, you know, we`ve got .
GRACE: So why aren`t you releasing what she did for a living?
WILLIAMS: Well, what we`re doing is we`re just really focusing on getting images of Ann out there and the pertinent information of the case, which the fact that she left to go on just a recreational walk or jog and she is no longer here. Her dog came back, obviously, as you know. But she is a wonderful, outgoing, professional person who has a lot of good friends, and is a great communicator. And she`s a fighter. We know that she`s out there somewhere, and we`re hopeful that she is going to be back with us real soon.
GRACE: To Claudia Rivero with KTVK, was she dating anyone?
RIVERO: Not that we know of, as you heard from her brother, the family is being very private about Ann, really. They won`t release any of that information. We got some information off camera from some of her friends, Nancy, but as far as we know, she was not dating anyone at this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police launched helicopters to search the neighborhood while Ann`s family tried to gather clues from Ann`s unharmed pet. They have no way of contacting their loved one. Ann left her cell phone and wallet at home. The family hopes somehow Ann will contact them. For now, they can do nothing but wait.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Put some of Ann`s clothes to her nose, and then I took Xena down the street, and she was sniffing around on the street, and pretty soon, she was sniffing all over everything. I think she -- she knows something is -- something is -- fishy. I wish she could talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. What do you make of it?
BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, a dog like that, even though some of her clothes -- you know, that`s not a trained dog. You know, right now, I don`t know. We know what was her emotional state at the time? Did she have any emotional you know, relationship wise, with any past relationships? These are all things that the investigators early on in this case need to get from the family. And I`m sure the family is cooperating. You know, they had helicopters up with the forward-looking infrared, they didn`t find any heat signatures. This area out there, Nancy, I`ve been out to Gilbert and the Chandler and Gilbert area and it`s all flat and all farm land that`s been developed into subdivisions so it`s not like she went out and fell off a cliff somewhere or that kind of thing. So it`s basically like she just disappeared in a half-hour window.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She left a note for my mom that just said, you know, gone running with Xena, I`ll be back soon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is a very beautiful, responsible young woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s really pretty far out of bounds. We would not expect anything like this from her at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, it`s a helpless feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the family of Ann Carver .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just like she vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Waiting for word on the 34-year-old woman`s whereabouts is stressful. Her disappearance is baffling. Ann went missing early Monday morning, when her family says she went for a jog with her pet dog, Xena. Ann`s dog returned home, wearing her leash, but Ann never did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put some of Ann`s clothes to her nose, and then I took Xena down the street, and she was sniffing around on the street, and pretty soon, she was sniffing all over everything. I think she knows something`s fishy -- I wish she could talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Holly Hughes, former prosecutor. What do you make of it, Holly?
HUGHES: It sounds to me like you`ve got to look at two different situations. This is a 35-year-old woman. She recently moved back into her parents` house. So again, like Mike mentioned, you want to know if this is voluntary. Did she in fact just kind of walk away? The other thing we`re looking at of course is abduction. But typically, if someone is hurt, their dog is going to stay with them, Nancy. They`re going to alert, they`re going to have blood on them. The dog is going to be close to the owner. I think what we`re looking at is a voluntary walking away like the Jennifer Wilbanks case we had a while back, the runaway bride or an abduction where somebody snatched her up and left her there with no recourse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police launched helicopters to search the neighborhood while Ann`s family tried to gather clues from Ann`s unharmed pet. They have no way of contacting their loved one. Ann left her cell phone and wallet at home. The family hopes that somehow Ann will contact them. For now, they can do nothing but wait.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The search for a 34-year-old Arizona woman heats up. With us tonight, her brother, Tyler Williams. Mr. Williams, did you tell me whether she was dating anyone? I believe I`ve got Tyler. Uh-oh. We`ve lost Tyler. We`ll get that satellite back up. Claudia Rivero, what do we know?
RIVERO: At this point you were asking if Ann Carver was dating anyone. The family would not confirm that for us, Nancy. They would not say if she`s dating anyone.
GRACE: Well, what will they say if they don`t even give us where she was working? What do we really know about the missing woman?
RIVERO: Not a whole lot. Not from what we`re getting from the family. Gilbert police, I`m sure the family has cooperated with the -- with the Police Department, but as far as what they tell us, they tell us they just basically want to focus on getting her picture out so that everyone can see who she is and see if anybody saw her when she went missing yesterday sometime between 5:00 and 6:00 in the morning.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, weigh in.
BROOKS: With the brother not saying this, we`re not getting much about her. There`s no clothing description. It was only a half an hour. So how far had she walked with his dog for the dog to come back, how far out and how far back is it? There are a lot of pieces of this puzzle that we`re not hearing.
GRACE: The tip line. 480-503-6500. Regardless of the circumstances, this woman is missing. 480-503-6500. Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Richard Nelson, 23, Racine, Wisconsin. Killed, Iraq. On a second tour. Loved hunting, fishing, the Green Bay Packers, dreamed of starting a family, college, and being a schoolteacher. He leaves behind parents Susan and Leonard. Five brothers, one sister. Widow and high school sweetheart, Kristen. Richard Nelson, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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