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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony`s Ex-Fiance Speaks Out
Aired October 02, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. He was set to marry tot mom Casey Anthony, even named as the biological father on little Caylee, but with accusations flying that he kidnapped 3-year-old Caylee, Jesse Grund finally breaks silence. Tonight, Grund makes a public plea for mom, Casey, to stop the lying and report what really happened to little Caylee. This as tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team publicly and brazenly announces she will not tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance, claiming, quote, "It`s not in her best interest."
All the while, a report emerges a woman similar to mom, Casey, was spotted leaving a heavily wooded area near Orlando International Airport. And we learn police call off searches for little Caylee, signaling their belief the little girl is dead. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, named the prime suspect in the disappearance day two. As mom, Casey Anthony, enjoys her freedom tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward finally, that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I have, like, seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey had lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word "diabolical" to describe the way she lies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had the child. She was the last one to see the child, and we want to know what information she had that is valid, that is factual, that is credible, not just what she has fabricated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, police and now the feds on high alert for not one, not two, not three, four children kidnapped in Missouri, all four classified as being in extreme danger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. Police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs (ph), who does not have custody of any of the children. According to cops, Riggs was having an unsupervised overnight visit with the children when she put them in a 1992 Dodge Caravan and fled the area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children, and it keep gets delayed and delayed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time Riggs has taken the children, with reports saying this is now the fourth time she has taken them, the first three times out of state. Police are now on the alert in Denver, Colorado, and Oklahoma, hoping to find Riggs and return the children to safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the information lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.
CINDY ANTHONY: He was in my home every day, and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage. He took it out on me one day a couple times while they were engaged. And from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her life off and on. And Casey doesn`t -- she gets very, like, Stay away from him, Mom, like, that kind of thing. And even if you guys watched our taped interview, I asked her specifically about people, and she -- every -- the only person she said, Don`t talk to, she said, Stay away from Jesse. And she looked frightened when she said that.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom blurts out something kind of puts you in an embarrassing way. Can you tell me about that again?
GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know I love your daughter.
And then she immediately just throws Casey under the bus, in proverbial terms, just lays her out there, How do you want to be with somebody who`s got no future? She didn`t even go back to get her high school education. You know, She`s got a -- she got a job at a place where she doesn`t really even make enough money to support Caylee. I`m doing -- I`m the one supporting Caylee.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But no one`s forgetting about Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, of course not. That is -- that is the paramount reason why we`re here today is, is to make sure that we can find Caylee. What is her status? Where is she? How can we find her?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So much happening in the search for little Caylee. Right now, to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about an alleged sighting of a woman with a baseball cap pulled down over her head leaving a heavily wooded area near the Orlando International Airport?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we know is the woman was leaving work sometime between June 20th and June 28th near the Orlando airport, and she said she noticed a car that was like Casey`s, she later realized, that belonged -- she thought it belonged to a friend of hers, which is why it caught her attention. When she got closer to it, she saw some markings and some bumper stickers that she knew were not on her friend`s car, so she was relieved her friend wasn`t in trouble.
But as she drove away, she noticed someone slight of build with a baseball cap and some athletic-type wear walking out of the woods, and she thought it was odd because it`s not an area, she said, where anyone would be jogging or anything like that. Of course, that was before Caylee had been reported missing. After Caylee had been reported missing, she saw the car on the news and she saw Casey on the news, and she put two and two together and thought maybe that was Casey. So she told investigators about it, and they have searched that area.
GRACE: Kathi Belich, precisely, to the best you can tell us, where is the area?
BELICH: It is to the south of Orlando International Airport. It`s sort of a secluded road. Once again, not the same secluded road where they have searched in the past that we`ve already reported on. But it is sort of a secluded road. Even during the day when we were there, which is when this woman believed she saw possibly Casey, there was not a lot of traffic on that road.
GRACE: So let me get this straight, Kathi Belich, because the timing of her sighting is very, very important. We all know that as soon as little Caylee was reported missing, the next day, essentially, mom, Casey, went to jail. She was in jail for a period of time. So was the sighting reported after Caylee went missing, but she saw the incident before?
BELICH: Well, this was in the time before any of us even knew that Caylee was missing.
GRACE: Gotcha.
BELICH: So it was during the week after Caylee had disappeared, and obviously, you know, that was during the month before we knew and Casey...
GRACE: Got it. Got it. An incredible story, if it`s true, if there`s no mistake. What do you make of it, Mike Brooks?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: One of the things they can do, since they do have a timeframe between the 20th and 28th of June, they can go back, check her cell phone records and see if there`s any pings in that particular area if she had her phone on.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by in Orlando. It`s my understanding that the pings led them to the Orlando International Airport area.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to earlier reports, there were some pings in that area near the Orlando airport, and that is how police were led to that area to do their searching.
GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla. Everyone, you know Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of this sighting?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s easy enough, like Brooks said. You can start with the 18th, if you want, and you know that the car was at the house. On the 20th is when she probably was out of gas and her and Tony went and broke into the shed, which is also Friday night. And then you go to the next week, which is the 23rd. The 24th, the car was seen at the house by George. You go to the 25th and the 26th. The morning of the 27th, the car was out of gas, parked in the check cashing lot. So after that, you don`t -- you don`t look for the car.
But the one thing that we`ve started working on, just two days ago, we got a complete list of all of the phone calls and the towers that they bounced off of. And one of the things that`s very interesting is how Casey thinks. On the morning of the 27th, Tony had said that he went down to the Amscot, picked her up. She had some groceries. Well, on that particular morning, there`s a little timeframe in there when she called her mother, she called Amy, she called Jesse.
GRACE: Everybody, also, we all know the name Jesse Grund, the former fiance that was told he`s not only the biological father of little Caylee, but then, suddenly, accusations began to fly that he was involved in her disappearance. Take a listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRUND: She was a very doting and devoted mother, as I said. She was very much into being a homebody and loyal. And she was wanting to spend the rest of our lives together and starting to plan it. And she started to pull away, and it started to become about her and she started to party and drink, this lifestyle that now we`ve seen pictures of out there. And then the lying started to become -- she was getting very close with her mother. She wasn`t very close with her mother at the beginning of the relationship, and then as soon as she started becoming close with her mother, it started a transformation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: NBC`s "Today" show, ex-fiance Jesse Grund, expressing frustration over Anthony`s behavior toward the end of their relationship. He is speaking out after being named as the kidnapper.
Now, not only did Grund speak out, but now we learned that brazenly and openly, mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team has said point blank their client, Casey Anthony, is not going to tell police what she knows. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: It does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage that they have in putting her away for the rest of her life, which is what they`re trying to do. They can`t get what they want through the front door, so they`re trying to sneak in the back door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jose Baez on NBC "Today" show.
You know, I find that very disturbing. To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You`re completely right, Nancy. It`s just shameful that she won`t tell anything. What it points to to me is that she`s guilty of something. Otherwise, why wouldn`t she tell what she knows about her missing child?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: And I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know, I love your daughter.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this point, was a real person in the beginning. But I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee.
I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead of looking at the prime suspect in her own household, she wants you to think that it`s Jesse or it`s Amy. And she talks about Jesse discrepancies. He clarified one statement with law enforcement. Cindy hasn`t said the same thing twice since this began.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back out to Kathi Belich, CNN affiliate WFTV reporter. Kathi, what can you tell us about searches going on in the Orlando area?
BELICH: Well, there was an area that we just talked about that was another remote area near the Orlando International Airport. There`s another search that also actually took place in an area not far from the Amscot, where she had abandoned her car. That area, as I understand, she had frequented quite often. It is between the Amscot and not far from her parents` home, so it would be an area she would frequent. But she was in that area quite often during that month that Caylee was gone, before we knew it, and so they`ve also searched that area.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Andrea in Pennsylvania. Hi, Andrea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. I`m a little confused here. Who is and where is little Caylee`s father in all that`s going on?
GRACE: Right now, the biological father, to my knowledge, has never been publicly named.
To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. In fact, Casey Anthony has told many, many tales about who the bio dad is.
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: There have been several different versions of the story, including, early on, that Jesse Grund was the father, which we know not to be the true because he took a paternity test. She said -- she has variably said that it was a one-night stand, that it was somebody who she knew from childhood. And her mother says that it`s someone who moved out of the state to Kentucky or Tennessee and she only knew a first name, so...
GRACE: And then she went on to state he was killed in a car crash. Then she went on to say he was killed in a car crash on his way to Caylee`s birthday party. Then she stated, let`s see, wasn`t it that a security guard at Universal might be the father. I mean, it could be anybody. But I do know it`s not Jesse Grund.
And speaking of Jesse Grund, here`s what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRUND: At the very end, she started to lie about things. She was actually -- I was one of the ones she stole money from. She stole $250 from me and then made up an excuse why she couldn`t pay me back or made up excuses why she couldn`t be places with me. And I found out she was actually seeing someone else at the end of our relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund on "Today." Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to multiple fraud and theft charges, including her so-called best friend.
Now, let me ask you this, Natisha Lance. Has she been charged with stealing from Jesse Grund?
LANCE: No, she has not been charged with that. I don`t believe that they have even pressed charges for that. But actually, Richard Grund said something interesting to me before. He said that when he called Cindy Anthony about Casey stealing this money from Jesse, she said, Well, she only did it one time. So this is something that was a habit of Casey`s and the family apparently knew about it. And they weren`t doing anything about it at that time.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from LA, also author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, the lawyer comes out and states publicly, it does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage. They can`t get what they want through the front door. It says it`s not in her best interest to cooperate with police and tell what she knows.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: To me, it just seems that through the legal system, yet one more person is colluding with this young woman. Nancy, the way she lies, she floods other people with so many details that they can`t even think. She just spins them around and around. And what we`ve seen with the Anthony family, and in particular with Cindy Anthony, is that they`re halfway in and halfway out of the lies. In a sense, they`re colluding with her.
And then Jesse Grund comes in, and Cindy Anthony actually says that Jesse Grund is the only one who could manipulate Casey. Manipulate her? Even the investigators can`t get the truth out of her. I think this is a case of shooting the messenger because the messenger is speaking the truth.
And back to Jose Baez. I know this is a legal maneuver, but from a mental health perspective, it`s one more grand collusion with this pathological liar.
GRACE: To the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, and Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta. To you, Penny. The defense attorney states very brazenly, it`s not her best interest to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance.
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense attorney should just straight out say no comment because anything she says could be twisted, could be turned. If it were my client, I wouldn`t let her say a word. I wouldn`t let her speak at all.
GRACE: But Peter Odom, if she knows where Caylee is, why would they come out and announce, We`re not cooperating, it`s not in her best interests?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I would think that you`d find it refreshing that a defense attorney is coming right out and not mincing words and...
GRACE: I`m not talking about him. I`m talking about the prime suspect, mom, Casey Anthony, putting her own interests above those of her daughter.
ODOM: Clearly, that`s how she has lived her life and...
GRACE: That is your answer?
ODOM: ... she should come out and say what she knows, but legally...
GRACE: Eleanor?
ODOM: Legally, she shouldn`t.
DIXON: Well, you know, Nancy, it`s just another piece of the puzzle that isn`t getting answered right now. But I think, in a sense, it`s telling us volumes. She`s speaking volumes by her silence. She know what`s going on.
GRACE: Well, for him to come out and state, Mike Brooks, it`s not her best interests to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance -- so even now, they`re admitting she`s stonewalling, that everything -- they`re admitting everything she said is a lie.
BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And you know, I mean, they said that they`re going around the back door. No. It`s called an investigation. That`s what these detectives have been doing. You know, you got a witness list now of 82 people, Nancy. Thirty-five of those people on that list are law enforcement officials. So they`re baking her a good cake. And I hope that they wait and let it settle. There`s no hurry. They`re making this case and they`re going to make it. They`re going to wind up charging her sooner than later.
GRACE: Back to Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney. Penny, what do you make of this eyewitness who spots a woman similar to mom, Casey Anthony, baseball cap, coming out of a heavily wooded area?
FURR: Well, where`s the woman been? Where was she...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... they searched the area.
FURR: Why is she just now calling in? This happened months ago.
GRACE: No, she`s not just calling in, Penny. She called in several weeks ago, but we`re just learning about it. I`m talking to you about eyewitness testimony.
FURR: Oh, you`re saying this woman called in and said someone who looks like her came out and she remembers it.
GRACE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
FURR: Has she reported it? Did she take the tag number? How does she know it`s Casey?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.
GRUND: Typical Cindy Anthony, point the finger at somebody else, do misdirection, get the attention off your daughter and hope that people believe you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jesse Grund, former fiance, speaking out, demanding that mom, Casey, tell the truth regarding her little girl, this while a new search reportedly has taken place. And a sighting comes to light, a sighting of a woman very similar to mom, Casey Anthony, emerging from a heavily wooded area near the Orlando airport, baseball cap pulled down, going toward a car similar to mom, Casey`s.
Kathi Belich, describe the car again?
BELICH: She said it was a white Pontiac Sunfire and she knows that because a friend of hers drives a white Pontiac Sunfire. It caught her attention because she was worried. It was parked in the median. She was worried that perhaps her friend was having car trouble.
She said that when she got closer to the car, she saw some bumper stickers, she knew that it wasn`t her friend`s car. And again, you know, as she drove away, and saw a woman. Now, I did find out that she reported that to our local crime line number on September 4, when she started to put the pieces together in her mind that maybe it was connected.
GRACE: So she reported it fairly soon after seeing it. I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. OK, this was in September. There has been massive rain there in Florida. The temperature has fluctuated. If there were remains in that heavily wooded area, what would you expect to find?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the body`s on the surface, small animals may have torn the body up. Flies may have eaten part of the tissue. If the body was buried under the ground, there may well be forensic evidence, the remains, that would allow you to conclude what caused the death of Caylee.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 22-year-old tot mom Casey Anthony is a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So she is a suspect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: One top investigator tells me it`s fair to say they are far more suspicious of Casey Anthony in connection with her daughter`s disappearance than anyone else so far connected with this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the one individual that can provide us the information, lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: The man named as Caylee Anthony`s biological father and then accused of being her kidnapper, breaks his silence. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT LAUER, CO-ANCHOR, TODAY SHOW: Casey is the suspect. Can you envision her as someone who would cause harm to her own daughter?
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCEE: The Casey that I knew, no. But, obviously, we -- who knows the real Casey? I think only she does. I think her personality has been so changed and molded over the years, I don`t know if she knows who she is.
Casey, tell the truth. This isn`t about you anymore. This is about Caylee. Stop dragging peoples` lives through this. Stop destroying peoples` lives and tell truth.
What happened to Caylee? Because we`re all done with it. We`re all done with having to listen to your lies and your stories that make no sense over and over and over again so tell the truth about what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Anthony`s ex-fiancee Jesse Grund on NBC "Today." Mom Casey`s attorney has said she does not know where Caylee is and then states she`s not going to tell police what she knows. So those are both diametrically opposed.
We are taking your calls live. To Sherry in North Carolina, hi, Sherry. Hi, Sherry.
SHERRY, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hello?
GRACE: Hi, dear.
SHERRY: Yes. I have a question.
GRACE: OK.
SHERRY: It`s actually a two-part. When Casey Anthony started Googling Zenaida Gonzalez, does that coincide with the time spent when she looked at that apartment at Saw Grass Apartments?
And, she also led cops to that apartment she supposedly said Zenaida Gonzalez lived. Have they ever inspected that apartment? Maybe she was in there and harmed the child or.
GRACE: Interesting question, Sherry.
I want to go to Natisha Lance. I`m sure the police have inspected the apartment, correct, and found it vacant?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. That apartment was vacant long -- for quite a while, actually. Nobody had lived in there for months.
GRACE: OK. And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Nikki, what can you tell me about the date that someone was Googling Zenaida Gonzalez on Casey Anthony`s computer?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That search was found to be performed on July 16th. That was the day that Casey went to jail. So if it was earlier in the day, it may have been Casey or later on in the day it may have been Cindy trying to figure out -- or George, trying to figure out what`s going on.
GRACE: A question I have is it`s day two after mom Casey Anthony has been named the prime suspect in Caylee`s disappearance. Why is she still at home kicked back watching TV at her rent-free parent`s home?
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr and Peter Odom.
What about it, Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not uncommon for suspects to be on the loose. Remember, she has not been charged with any offense involving harming that child. The term suspect is an investigative term, not a legal term, Nancy.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Eleanor, the defense attorney also made his statement that there`s absolutely no difference between a person of interest and a suspect.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think there is, Nancy. I think suspect.
GRACE: Yes. There`s a huge difference.
DIXON: . such -- that are point to it. Yes. Exactly. And I think they`re coming out and saying this -- and it`s just a matter of time, Nancy, at the this point. We`re just building up that puzzle piece by piece.
GRACE: Penny Douglas Furr, explain the constitutional rights that attach once someone has been named a suspect.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, once she`s been named a suspect, they won`t be able to go and question her. They can`t just go and get information from her.
But, Nancy, if there is such a difference between person of interest and suspect, what is the difference between yesterday and today? What information did they find that took her from person of interest to suspect? So I would like to know from them what made the difference.
GRACE: Well, you know, I appreciate your hypothetical question, Penny. But I doubt we`ll be able to open up the state`s case file until trial time.
I want to go back to Eleanor Dixon.
Eleanor, once someone has been named a target or a suspect, they have a -- myriad of constitutional rights that then protect them.
DIXON: Exactly. Most importantly, the right to remain silent and, as Penny mentioned, the police cannot go and question her unless they Mirandize her and she agrees to talk voluntarily.
GRACE: So, Peter Odom, why would the defense attorney make such a gaffe?
ODOM: About saying that she`s not going to say anything because it wouldn`t be in her best interest?
GRACE: No.
ODOM: Because he`s telling the truth.
GRACE: We`re now talking about his comment that there`s no difference between the person of interest and the suspect.
ODOM: Because those are investigative terms and really a person of interest can invoke fifth amendment rights just as a suspect can. Legally, he is exactly right.
GRACE: Eleanor, agree?
DIXON: Well, I`m not going to agree with a defense attorney, Nancy. I think, suspect, again, is telling you exactly what it is. And we all know what that means and a indictment is probably on the way.
GRACE: A suspect invokes constitutional privileges that a person of interest title does not. It is extremely important in a legal sense.
Back to the lines, to Jackie in Tennessee, hi, Jackie.
JACKIE, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Good, dear. What is your question?
JACKIE: I just have a quick question. Last night, I don`t remember if it was during -- when Cindy Anthony called the police or when it was during her police interrogation, but she has said the last time she saw Caylee was on June 7th, and I thought the last time she has seen Caylee was Father`s Day.
Am I misunderstanding.
GRACE: No. You`re not misunderstanding. She was mistaken. As was mom Casey Anthony and her statements to police, Jackie, they were last seen -- she was last seen alive the weekend of Father`s Day weekend which was June 16th.
Both of them -- well, I know Cindy Anthony later admitted that since she had her weekends confused. I find it very difficult to understand, Dr. Bethany Marshall, how a mother can confuse the last time she saw her daughter alive.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is so hard to imagine but I can speak from Cindy Anthony`s perspective, when you raise a pathological daughter -- a daughter who`s a pathological liar who lies in such elaborate ways, floods you with details, spins you around so you can`t even think, so you start to go along with the lies, pretty soon you`re not only colluding but you become co-conspirator in a crime, not in -- from an emotional perspective but from an emotional perspective because you`ve made so many accommodations along the way.
So she could have been brainwashed by her own daughter and then represent the delusion she`s drawn -- gotten drawn into to the investigators.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Kay in Florida, hi, Kay.
KAY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
KAY: Just keep doing what you`re doing, honey. Fight for these kids.
GRACE: Thank you. What is your question, dear?
KAY: I was wondering, nobody has mentioned anything about the undercarriage of her car. Have they done anything underneath there to check for anything?
GRACE: You know, interesting question.
To Dr. Michael Arnall, since her story was her father ran over an animal which created the stench in her car.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, you know, it`s easy enough to get one of those little roller carts and roll underneath a car and see if you find hair or residue.
But I got to tell you. Having heard the stories from the witnesses that say they got hit by this wave of odor, one has to believe that it`s not possible that a rabbit or a squirrel or some small animal could possibly cause that wave of malodor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: He was in my home every day and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day. Couple times while they were engaged, and from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her off and on.
And Casey doesn`t -- you know, she gets very, like, stay away from her mom, like that kind of thing . And even if you guys watch out taped interview, I asked her specifically about people and she`s -- the only person she said don`t talk to, she said stay away from Jesse and she looked frightened when she said that.
I have like seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing to Jesse because he was my first. He was my first person I thought of that had a motive. That could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shot and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(NEWSBREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 39-year-old Shirley Riggs lost custody of her children due to a complicated legal loophole during divorce proceedings from her husband.
Due to her frustrations, she took her children to Oregon and New Mexico without the court`s permission two other times. And in fact, she served six months in prison for it.
Police say during an unsupervised overnight visit at her house, she put the kids in a maroon Dodge Caravan like this one with Missouri plates MB6 C8m and drove off without telling anybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is a wonderful person, a wonderful mom. Couldn`t be a better mom than my daughter. She loves her kids. She takes good care of them. She`ll do for them before she`ll do for herself.
She panicked. She went to her lawyers the day before she left because she was afraid that she was going to lose them. She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children and it keeps getting delayed and delayed.
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GRACE: Out to "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent Michelle Sigona.
Michelle, what`s happening with these four children?
MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, right now, Nancy, investigators have no clue where they could be. They think that, possibly, she had taken them to either Oklahoma where she was originally from, also New Mexico, because she had taken the children there previously or Denver, Colorado, where we do know that she does have a friend for sure.
But at this point, since April 2006, this is the fourth abduction of these children at this time and this mom has also served jail time, Nancy. I mean, she served jail time six months last year -- last time that the kids were taken in October of 2007.
So here we are again and investigators do believe that because of her stress and the mental state that the children could be, you know, possibly hungry and not meeting their educational needs and that they do need to find these children and bring them home.
GRACE: Does she have a mental history, Michelle?
SIGONA: Well, I did ask her mom that and what her mom tells me is that while she was married to Raymond, her husband, who she`s still married to at this time -- they`re not formally divorced yet -- that she was taking Zoloft for some depression.
And I asked about -- you know, because I read reports that said she was bipolar. And I asked her mom that, and her mom says, absolutely not. She was not bipolar. I actually spoke with one of her friends, John, as well.
And I actually spoke with another person that she works with at the Angel Lady Place in town, in Independence, and what they all say is that she`s a very nice, quiet person who just wants to protect her children.
GRACE: Joining me tonight, the father of the missing children and his attorney. With me, Raymond Riggs and Attorney Phil Zuspan.
Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Mr. Riggs, when did you last see your children?
RAYMOND RIGGS, FATHER OF FOUR MISSING CHILDREN: It was the week prior to the abduction.
GRACE: Why does she get to keep seeing them, Mr. Riggs, if she`s made off with them before?
PHIL ZUSPAN, ATTORNEY FOR FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: Nancy, we want the thank you for this opportunity to bring public awareness to these missing children. Unfortunately, we`re under a gag order.
GRACE: Oh.
ZUSPAN: With the juvenile case and even though we would very much like to disclose information to the public and helping to find these children, I don`t think we can comment on that.
GRACE: I understand completely. And I knew there was a signal of a distress when Mr. Riggs looked over at you.
Let me ask you this, Mr. Zuspan -- with me, Phil Zuspan, he is the attorney for Raymond Riggs -- the four children are now missing for days. Their non-custodial parent has made off with them. Police say the four children are in extreme danger. The youngest age 7.
Mr. Zuspan, did the court allow her to have visitation?
ZUSPAN: Again, Nancy, even though I very much like to answer that question, I am under a gag order as to what she was allowed to do and what she, you know, was disallowed to do, but she had improperly took the children and she has illegally taken them away from the jurisdiction of Missouri.
GRACE: Mr. Riggs, does your wife have any mental instability that concerns you?
RIGGS: Based on my experiences, and in my opinion, that is a real concern for me.
GRACE: What about it, Mr. Zuspan?
ZUSPAN: That would be my opinion, as well. I`m not a mental health expert, but based upon what I know, in my opinion, Shirley Riggs has serious issues.
GRACE: Why did she lose custody to start with, Mr. Zuspan?
ZUSPAN: Well, I can say that the divorce case that Raymond filed preceded any of these court actions. The reasons why Mr. And Mrs. Riggs lost custody through the legal action of the juvenile case, again, is under seal and we cannot comment about that.
GRACE: Where do you believe, Mr. Riggs, she is headed?
RIGGS: I have no idea. My best guess is just based on previous experiences, Oregon or Oklahoma or possibly New Mexico.
GRACE: Would her family cover for her, Mr. Riggs?
RIGGS: I believe so, yes.
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.
SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, darling. My question is, what kind of an extreme danger are these children in?
GRACE: Can you tell us more, Michelle Sigona?
SIGONA: Well, I asked investigators that today. I said, you know, is she -- do you think she`s going to harm the children? They`re just not too sure at this point with her mental state. She`s under a lot of stress. I mean she`s facing charges for the last abduction, Nancy.
And then, also, you know, she was supposed to go to court on Monday for, you know, this current permanent placement of the children. That is why they believe she did take the children last weekend.
And then also, she is going through her divorce so they believe all of those factors combined with the fact that she just wants to protect her kids and that, you know, they don`t think possibly that she may not hurt them but that right now they may not be in a good state.
And I also want to tell you that in a previous case where investigators did find the children with her that they were living in a vehicle and it was very unstable conditions.
GRACE: To the lines, Stacy in Tennessee. Hi, Stacy.
STACY, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, have they checked in those other states for her?
GRACE: Good question.
Mr. Riggs -- Raymond Riggs, the father of the children -- have they checked where she went last time?
RIGGS: I believe so. The information I have is that they have followed up on all the leads and all the successes they had in looking in previous times.
GRACE: When she made off with him before, Mr. Riggs, did she contact you to let you know they were OK?
RIGGS: At -- sometime she has and sometimes she hasn`t.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what`s the best avenue now?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, it`s good that the FBI is involved. The Independent, Missouri police has asked for the assistance of the FBI. There has been a warrant filed for -- there`s a UFAP warrant, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
Now they can also send leads to all the different offices in New Mexico, Oklahoma and Colorado to follow up with agents there, to go to her -- houses of her friends and associates, and interview people there as to what they know of her whereabouts.
GRACE: Michelle, what are the ages and genders of the children?
SIGONA: Absolutely. There`s two boys and there`s two girls, Nancy. And their age ranges from 7 all the way to 14. Rhiannon, who`s 7, Kelly who`s 10, Raven who`s 12, and Spencer who is 14.
All of these children really like to act out and they really like to act in drama, that is. And they all like to play musical instruments and play on the computer. So we just hope that they`re safe tonight.
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GRACE: Out to the lines, Linda in Florida. What`s your question?
LINDA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hello.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
LINDA: Yes, I was just wondering if -- I was just 14 and if he felt like he was in danger, does the father feel that he might try to contact someone?
GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, can a 14-year-old be intimidated?
MARSHALL: Well, in some ways -- women that abduct their children are very interested in parental alienation, so they tend to say to the children, your father`s bad. Your father`s bad.
Authority figures are bad in the sense they brainwash their own child. So she`s probably cut out from under him his own ability to make independent judgments and he`s probably terrified to go against her.
GRACE: Everyone, that tip line, 816-325-7258.
Mr. Riggs and to Phil Zuspan, attorney, thank you for being with us.
Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jason Brown, 29, Magnolia, Texas, killed Iraq. On a second tour. A Green Barrett, highly decorated, awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. A Sam Houston State grad.
Loved helping others, outdoors, hunting, fishing. Leaves behind parents, (INAUDIBLE) Rosemarie and James, daughter Alyssa.
Jason Brown, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, congratulations to Atlanta friends of the show, Mark and Shelby. They just welcomed home their newest little crime fighter, baby Beckett. The three of them never missed a show.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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