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Nancy Grace
Former Roommate of Missing Toddler`s Mother Reacts
Aired October 03, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Exclusive, for the first time since police named mom, Casey, the prime suspect, Casey Anthony`s roommate at the time little Caylee disappears breaks his silence. He`s with us live. He describes mom, Casey, going about her normal life, cooking, cleaning, partying and enjoying life with her roommate and her live-in lover, all the while showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over her missing girl. What did mom, Casey, have to say about Caylee? This as the Department of Children and Family concludes its own investigation of mom, Casey, their evidence now in the hands of police. What do they know? Tonight, where is 3-year- old Caylee?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there`s a knock at the door.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAZZARO: Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things
When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, we are in a verdict watch, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson facing life behind bars in a Vegas armed robbery. At this hour, 13 years ago to the day, the stunning verdict handed down in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. And once again, the jury is out. Will Simpson ever see the inside of a jail cell? We are live in that Vegas courthouse.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone! Get off that phone!
O.J. SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out this room! (DELETED) think you can steal my (DELETED) and sell it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (DELETED) You think you can steal my (DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED) you! Mind your business!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backs to the wall!
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?
(CROSSTALK)
SIMPSON: I trusted you, man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t -- I...
(CROSSTALK)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) guy with the bald head and he turned up (INAUDIBLE) pulled out a gun right next to my ear, and (DELETED). Then it was, like, Whoa! And I got scared myself. I didn`t know if this guy knew who I was or not. I wasn`t sure. And the gun started wheeling around, and it just -- it got crazy from there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to call 911 and tell them (INAUDIBLE)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five years to life in prison. That`s what O.J. Simpson faces if he`s convicted on armed robbery and kidnapping charges. His fate is in the hands now of a Las Vegas jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAZZARO: Casey`s brother, Lee, he addresses himself -- introduced himself on the phone and told me what was going on, how she admitted to him that she didn`t know where Caylee was and that she hasn`t seen Caylee for 31 days.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. There was nothing that threw any red flags, certainly not on our end, no reason for us to be suspicious of anything. I mean, she went about her business every day. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Anyway, you only got a couple minutes with us, so I`m not going to let you completely waste it. Here`s Christina (ph). She thinks she can get through to you.
CASEY ANTHONY: No! No! I want Tony`s number! I`m not talking to anybody else!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Get me my brother back because I need Tony`s number.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Tony have anything to do with Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, Tony had nothing to do with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. So why do you want to talk to him?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because he`s my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn`t get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on a (DELETED) whim today because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Sweetheart...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!
CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my God. Calling you guys? A waste. Huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Speaking of a waste, that was tot mom Casey Anthony on the phone, showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over the loss of her daughter, just anxious to talk to her boyfriend when she`s behind bars.
And tonight, for the first time, out of the shadows, speaking after mom, Casey`s, arrest, her roommate at the time of little Caylee`s disappearance. Nate is joining us live out of Orlando, Florida. Welcome. Thanks for being with us.
NATE, FORMER ROOMMATE: Hi, Miss Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. I`m a little confused as to why she has not already been arrested in the disappearance of her little girl. But how stunned were you when you found out all this time she had been cooking and cleaning and playing house with you and your roommates, her little girl was allegedly vanished?
NATE: I mean, as you can imagine, it took us -- you know, us there at the apartment, by surprise. I mean, she was going about her daily business, you know, as Tony`s girlfriend. Like I said previously, she was cooking and cleaning and just doing normal girlfriend-type stuff, and we assumed that the child was with the nanny, like she had said. And it never dawned on us at the time that she was missing. And certainly, when we did find out she was missing, it was pretty much a shock to us.
GRACE: Nate, when you say normal girlfriend-type stuff, I`m not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you give me a day in the life of mom, Casey Anthony, while little Caylee is missing? What would she do all day?
NATE: Well, we`re in class and...
GRACE: Take it from the beginning, in the morning.
NATE: In the morning, she would usually -- if she had happened to stay the night, she would usually leave first thing in the morning. Where she would go to, we weren`t exactly sure. We assumed that she was going to, you know, check on her daughter or to go see her daughter or whatever.
We usually take off for class between 9:00 or 1:00 PM in the afternoon, depending on our schedule for the month, and we`re in class, like, four to eight hours a day. So during the daytime, I can`t really attest too much as to what she was doing, whether she was working or not working. But in the evenings, you know, she would come over. If Tony came home from class later in the evening, she would, you know, have dinner ready for him. I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Like what? She was -- did she have a key to the apartment?
NATE: No, but usually -- we were all on opposite schedules, so usually, Cameron (ph), myself or Tony was home at some point throughout the day. And if one of us was home, she was allowed to be over there.
GRACE: OK. And then what would happen? She would come in with groceries and start cooking?
NATE: Yes, ma`am. On certain days, she would come in with groceries and she would...
GRACE: Like what?
NATE: ... cook meals. You know, pasta dishes. I think she made -- I want to say she made tacos one night or quesadillas. I can`t quite remember. But I know she made pasta one evening.
GRACE: And during all these meals, when everyone would sit down together and talk, never once did she mention, My daughter is missing.
NATE: No, ma`am.
GRACE: When did you find out Caylee was gone?
NATE: We found out Caylee was missing when the brother, Lee, had called to arrange to come pick up the remainder of her things that were still at the apartment. When he arrived over there, he told us, you know, that they could not locate Caylee, that they weren`t -- that they were not sure where she was at.
And then the second time we heard of that was later in the evening, when the deputies came back over there to search our apartment to, make sure that the child was, indeed, not in our apartment. That was when we kind of got a real sense of the gravity of the situation.
GRACE: What did detectives tell you?
NATE: They told us that Caylee had been missing, apparently, she had been missing for some time, and that they were there to do a search of the apartment to make sure that we were not harboring Caylee or hiding Caylee in the apartment, that she was not in the apartment there with us.
So they came in there and did a routine check, you know, searched the house, searched through every room and every closet, every cubbyhole and everything. And then you know, at that point, we kind of got an understanding that this has become a much more serious situation.
GRACE: What was Tony Lazzaro, her lover at the time`s, reaction when he found out for all this time he had been sleeping with a woman who claimed her daughter had vanished into thin air?
NATE: I mean, Tony -- the first part was utter dismay, then a little bit of anger at some of the details that have come out, you know, about certain things that he was...
GRACE: Such as what?
NATE: ... lied to -- you know, about her job, her education, just certain things that she had lied to him about.
GRACE: Her education. What about her education?
NATE: You know, she said that she had a college degree, and we`ve since learned otherwise. To the nature of her actual education, I`m not exactly sure of the extent of her education, but it wasn`t what she had originally told Tony. And it`s just certain things like that that have, you know -- have angered him a little bit. But it`s utter dismay and a little bit of -- I mean, obviously, sadness for how did he not notice what was going on, or how did he not see. I think that`s what he struggles with most.
GRACE: Did mom, Casey Anthony, ever tell Tony Lazzaro her version of what became of Caylee?
NATE: No, ma`am, not to my knowledge.
GRACE: Why?
NATE: That I do not -- I can`t even begin to make a stab at an answer for that. I have no idea why she did not tell him.
GRACE: Have you guys been in communication with her since she got out of jail?
NATE: No, ma`am.
GRACE: Why?
NATE: Tony, at this point -- he is, you know, fairly upset about this whole situation. I`m not sure whether or not he wants to actually make contact with her at this point.
GRACE: And does he feel betrayed?
NATE: Yes, ma`am. Absolutely.
GRACE: In what sense?
NATE: Just that, you know, here`s a girl that he did like, that he was seeing, that, you know, he was very much into, and he finds out it was all, you know, a web of lies, pretty much, and he`s been kind of catapulted into the middle of this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAZZARO: She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?
LAZZARO: No particular place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanted to get her own place.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: Hey.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number?
LEE ANTHONY: I -- I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going to do you, at this point.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, and by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my -- my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAZZARO: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan, we were playing video games, and she and Casey were sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all a sudden, there`s a knock on the door. And I said, Come in. And there was Amy, just standing there with a miserable face. And we all looked confused.
And then Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then, I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: With us tonight, a special guest speaking for the first time out of the shadows, the roommate of mom, Casey Anthony, at the time her little girl went missing. You were telling me how her boyfriend, her live- in, feels betrayed. What were you saying?
NATE: I was just saying that, you know, I mean, Tony`s a young guy that`s down here to go to school, met a nice girl, you know, seemed like she had a lot of things going for her, going -- you know, she had a job over there at Universal, going to college to get a degree and everything. So he started seeing her, and then has wound himself up in this situation, where it seems like everything that she had told him is a fabrication. And yes, I would say that he feels pretty betrayed.
GRACE: Just curious, what did she say she was getting her degree in?
NATE: I do not recall. She said she was attending Valencia Community, but I do not recall what specifically her degree that she was attaining was in.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx at WDBO. What is the truth regarding her education?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That, you know, after high school, she didn`t really get much education. Seems like a lot of the stuff that she was telling these boys was a lie, including, you know, her education, where she was working, how she was getting money, and you know, now what she was doing with Caylee.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by in Orlando. Did she complete high school?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, she actually did not complete high school.
GRACE: And all this time, she wasn`t been working, she`s just been lying around on various people`s sofas. She couldn`t go get her GED?
LANCE: That`s correct. Actually, Cindy mentioned that in an argument that she had with Jesse Grund. She said, Why would you want to be with somebody who can`t even go back and get her high school diploma? She can`t even support her daughter. I`m the one who provides for her daughter, Caylee.
GRACE: Out to the lines. To Alisha in Utah. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show and respect you so much.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is about the woman who saw the white Pontiac Sunfire and the woman coming out of the wooded area.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a match to Casey`s car? And also, she said that the car had bumper stickers. Did Casey`s car have any bumper stickers?
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What do we know?
PETRIMOULX: Well, that report comes from one of our local TV stations down here, and it said that somebody around the time that Caylee went missing was seen parked near the Orlando International Airport. And we know that police have searched with cadaver dogs in that area. And that person was suspiciously coming out of that wooded area, and it was suspicious because that`s not an area that you would normally see people jogging. We`ve also talked to investigators, and they kind of, you know, not really making it positively -- positively searching that area, so...
GRACE: I believe the question was about the car. Liz, can you pull up a picture of the vehicle? Natisha Lance, tell me about the car itself.
LANCE: A white Pontiac Sunfire, Nancy, which fits the description of Casey`s car, as well. As far as the bumper stickers, we`re not sure if Casey`s car did have bumper stickers on it or not. But police have processed that vehicle and they are looking in this lead, as well.
GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of Casey Anthony`s car. In a moment, we`ll give you the back-end shot. To my knowledge, there are no bumper stickers on the car. In fact, the woman who spotted the car first thought it was her friend`s car. That`s why she became aware of it. But it did not have the bumper stickers her friend had. So that`s what first drew her attention to it, Alisha in Utah.
Out to Jeff Gardere, Dr. Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription," and actually, a whole line of books. Dr. Gardere, what do you make of her sitting down with all of these friends, having a normal life, never mentioning Casey (SIC) was gone -- Caylee was gone?
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is something that we see with sociopaths. They have no guilt. They`re living in their own reality, and their feelings are very much distanced from what really is happening in life. So we see almost an anesthetized kind of life, where you just don`t know what`s really happening with other aspects of their day-to-day living. So I`m not shocked by this at all, Nancy.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla. Everybody, you know Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first posted a $500,000 bond to get the tot mom out of jail. He then came off that bond.
Mr. Padilla, thank you for being with us. I know that DFACS, Department of Family and Children`s Services, has completed their investigation as of today. What were they doing there? You were there, in and out of the home, at the time they were first investigating.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, when they came to the home, we didn`t realize that it was family services. We thought it was just some law enforcement people. And basically, they ran down about 40 minutes of questions to her regarding her child, living conditions, how she got along with her child, just your normal questions a social worker would question a mother about. There was nothing there confrontational, like law enforcement or something to that effect. Fact is, law enforcement came in right on the heels of this individual and ended up talking to Cindy.
GRACE: Leonard, why do you believe the searches for the remains have been called off by police?
PADILLA: I believe that law enforcement is pretty much convinced that the child cannot be found, shall we say, in a normal place where somebody would have buried her or put her in a -- under a tree or something to that effect. It`s either the landfill, or she put her into a pond, where an alligator has done their thing.
GRACE: Everybody, we`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live.
But we need your help on tonight`s Amber Alert, the search for a 2- year-old toddler girl vanishing, northwest Detroit, Tagena Hussain reported missing by her mom`s live-in from a local gas station. The live-in says he the girl in the car while running inside. When he returned, the girl gone. Tagena, 3 feet, 35 pounds -- look at her -- black hair, last seen wearing a long-sleeved brown T-shirt and white cargo pants. She had on gold sandals. She is beautiful. If you have information on this little angel, please call Detroit police, 313-596-1240.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAZZARO: She would wake up and -- or wake me up either in the middle of the night, or I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why. And she said that she would have nightmare -- she was having a nightmare or something, and that would bring up a nightmare pertaining to our relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how often did she wake up like that?
LAZZARO: Actually, she would actually be -- I would say that happened a couple of times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LAZZARO: I would say maybe two, maybe four times.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re taking your calls live, and we are also live at that Vegas jury deliberations on O.J. Simpson.
To Susan Moss, Doug Burns and Crystal Matthews (ph), all veteran trial lawyers. To Susan. Weigh in on Caylee.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may cook and clean, but we know she`s a fiend. This woman puts the con in confidence. She`s able to look at the police and come up with such lies. They`re intricate. They`re planned. But if we put witnesses, they will -- you know, and there`s a trial, they`ll never stand.
GRACE: Doug Burns, what about the fact she did not get Miranda when she first spoke to police before she was a suspect?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, it boils down to whether she was, you know, being interrogated while in custody. I`m not really sure whether it`s going to matter because the statements aren`t really a flat-out admission of guilt. But it`s a good point you make.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother since made a comment to me while I was sitting on the couch, because she was ringing at the door, and I said, yes, hello -- because I`ve seen pictures of the woman, but I never met her, so I was, you know, being friendly, like, hello, you can come in, like, because she was waiting at the door.
And she came in, and she`s goes, "I hope you`re rich, because Casey is going to take all your money and leave you high and dry." And me and my roommate were just looking at her like, wait, what? What? What are you talking about? Like, because I had no idea about her with, I guess -- her -- I guess the whole situation with the mother, Amy, and Casey were about the money situation.
I guess that`s what they talked about, because that`s why I guess Amy was there with the grandmother. But -- so that happened and she said that, and then Casey said shut up, and they -- she stormed outside, and the grandmother followed her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: That`s right. All hell broke loose when grandmother, Cindy Anthony, shows up to bring mom, Casey, home without little Caylee.
Tonight, she has been named the chief suspect in her daughter`s disappearance, but still no arrest on those charges. This as DFACS wraps up its investigation of her treatment of the child.
Tonight with us, Nate, the former roommate of mom Casey Anthony at the time little Caylee goes missing.
Let`s unleash the lawyers again. You know, Crystal Matthews, defense attorney out of New Orleans, Louisiana, I disagree with Doug Burns wholeheartedly.
No, in her comment, she didn`t come out and say I did it, but her comments are so full of lies. Her lying about where her daughter is, clearly, that would impact a jury if those statements came in.
CRYSTAL MATTHEWS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. But my belief is that at this time.
GRACE: At the time, what?
MATTHEWS: At this time, she should do her best to consult with her lawyer and to assist in the case as well as possible, but always considering her own constitutional rights. At this time, she is a newly-named suspect in the case, which changes her status. So she definitely needs to be.
GRACE: Susan Moss, what do you think about the statements?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, the statements are awful, and they`re really going to hurt her. If this goes to trial, you can bet that Casey is not going to testify.
But the words that she has said to others, including these initial interviews are definitely going to come in, and it`s going to be like she is, in fact, taking the stands, and it is going to crucify her.
GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, to Christine -- Christina in Wisconsin. Hi, dear.
CHRISTINA, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show, and your twins are beautiful.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you, very much. What`s your question, dear?
CHRISTINA: My question is about Casey`s first body guard, a while ago he said that he would only talk to the police if he had immunity. And I was wondering if anybody knew what he had to say.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, wasn`t that a female security agent named Stacy or Tracy? What happened with that?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: That`s correct. Basically, every now and then, like today, she came by. And, you know, every now and then I`ll talk to her and she`ll open up about a few things that she has not received any immunity.
GRACE: Like what?
PADILLA: Well, today about the -- the day that the welfare worker went by there, she talked about that for a minute.
GRACE: What about it?
PADILLA: Just basically the same thing that I told you, that they asked her a bunch of welfare type questions, social worker type questions. And that was about the extent of that visit.
GRACE: Out to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD joining us out of L.A.
Donald, thank you for being with us. How important is the testimony of, for instance, Nate, the roommate who is with us tonight or the boyfriend, the live-in, Tony Lazzaro?
DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Nancy, Nate`s testimony is so important because he`s the one guy that doesn`t have a motive or bias to lie. I mean he doesn`t know her that well and he is also going to be talking about Lazzaro and his involvement or lack of involvement. So he`s probably a key witness.
GRACE: I want to go to a renown medical examiner and author, "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper is with us tonight. He`s joining us out of Miami.
Dr. Perper, it`s an honor to have you on with us.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Thank you.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, you heard earlier the speculation that police have called off search for Caylee`s remains because they do not believe she will be found, for instance, buried in the woods, heavily wooded areas, around the home, around where the car was abandoned.
But maybe in a landfill. How difficult is it to find remains in a landfill?
PERPER: Well, it`s very difficult, but today there`s instrumentation, which can go several feet inside the ground, without actually entering the ground, and they can discover remains this way.
I don`t know if they used this kind of equipment because I know we have it in Broward County.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, it brings to mind the case of Lori Hacking, whose husband murdered her when his web of lies fell apart and placed her in a dump -- it was a landfill -- and there were only remnants of her body, I believe, some hair and some bone.
Why is it -- why do you find the body so -- mangled? It`s no longer together in a landfill. What happens in a landfill that it`s different from being in a wooded area?
PERPER: Well, it`s -- probably in a landfill, there are much more critters who basically attack the body and eat it. And therefore, all the connection and the tendons between different organs are basically melting away as a result of this kind of faction, plus the decomposition.
So the body basically dismembers naturally as a result of both the decomposition and attack by animals which are in the soil.
GRACE: And also, Dr. Perper, isn`t it that true that in a landfill you have trash or refuse, garbage being poured on constantly, and moved around, raked around, and so as the body decomposes, it`s also being jostled around.
PERPER: Yes, correct. Because these -- some kind of displacement of the earth, so different parts of the body can be basically scattered.
GRACE: Have you ever had a body that you examined or remains of a body that had been in a landfill or a dump or a trash can?
PERPER: Yes, because some people who went to the area -- some of the people who were working there discovered them. And, again, you cannot predict in advance what stage of decomposition.
But in this case, the body was missing for quite a number of months, so it`s likely that under the circumstances, the stage of the decomposition would be advanced.
GRACE: Was that body that you observed, was it intact?
PERPER: Largely intact, yes.
GRACE: You know, very quickly, to Susan Moss, Doug Burns, Crystal Matthews -- first to you, Susan, and she sat by, and cooked a pasta dinner for her live-in and his roomies while the body could be decomposing in a landfill, Susan Moss?
MOSS: It`s just -- it`s beyond reason how somebody can be so callous about their child. I don`t even.
GRACE: Doug Burns, what is the mode of death penalty in Florida?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The what?
GRACE: What is it, lethal injection down there?
BURNS: Yes, it`s lethal injection. But, Nancy, I`ll tell you what. You can`t argue in a courtroom she was cavalier and cooking pasta, ladies and gentlemen, so find her guilty of murder. You can`t argue that.
GRACE: You know what, that wouldn`t be what I would argue.
BURNS: I would say -- yes.
GRACE: If I were arguing for the state, what I would argue is, come death penalty phase.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: . the degree of mercy she showed her daughter while she was -- enjoying her pasta dinner she cooked for her live-in, that`s what I would argue at penalty phase.
BURNS: No, no, no, as an aggregating factor, I agree with you. I thought you were talking about at the guilt phase. And all of these lies, they are what they are. But they don`t prove murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FRIEND: Can Tony tell me anything?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Tony doesn`t know anything. And I haven`t even talked to him since this morning.
CHRISTINA: Has Tony seen Caylee?
ANTHONY: Tony hasn`t seen Caylee since the beginning of June.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, when he walked into the Palace Station on September the 13th, 2007, really had the intent to commit a crime?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone, get off that phone.
O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, this case boils down to one word, and that`s accountability.
SIMPSON: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mind your business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to the wall.
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. started yelling at them, didn`t recognize them for long, and say, man, what do you have my stuff for? He didn`t exactly use the word "stuff," he used another word. I know you guys stole this stuff, you knew I wanted it. You knew this was my stuff, my personal stuff, and he started screaming at them, get real -- and they -- just -- they were like, I`m sorry, Mike took it. And they were pushing the stuff towards O.J.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, everyone is stunned. The jury is refusing to go home for the evening. They are continuing to deliberate the fate of Orenthall James Simpson.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent of "In Session." Jean, what`s the latest?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, what we just found out is the jury is asking for dinner. They are not giving out tonight. They are continuing to deliberate.
They started this morning just a little after 8:30. By my calculations, that is nine hours of deliberation. And Nancy, they deliberated through lunch.
GRACE: Did they have their lunch brought into the jury room?
CASAREZ: Yes, they did. And they continued. They opted to continue to deliberate through lunch. It was their choice.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, joining us there at the courthouse in Las Vegas. Jean, is the jury deliberation room right off the courtroom?
CASAREZ: It`s fairly close, yes, it is. And this is the room that they have been in throughout the trial.
GRACE: Can you hear any raised voices?
CASAREZ: Nancy, at this point, we`re not -- no, Nancy. And even if I could, I wouldn`t tell you, OK? But, you know, we`re not even allowed in the room right now. It is locked and we`re outside in the hallway.
But Nancy, there are 12 counts, then there are some lesser included. My calculation, it is now up to 18 counts per defendant, and there are two defendants, O.J. Simpson and C.J. Stewart.
GRACE: So what is the crux of the case, Jean, and has the jury asked any questions or asked to view any of the exhibits?
CASAREZ: No. There are not any questions, there was a procedural question this afternoon, we understand, but the evidence is in there with them. And Nancy, this is truly an armed robbery case, because this is a case that prosecutors say on September 13th of 2007, right here in Las Vegas, that O.J. Simpson and his men went into a hotel room through the use of force, fear and violence, to retrieve the personal property of another.
And under Nevada law, that is robbery.
GRACE: We are seeing video right now of them going by. What a place to commit an armed robbery, at a casino, where every move you make is caught on camera.
To Julianne Thomas joining us from Newsradio 840 KXNT -- Julianne, what is the defense?
JULIANNE THOMAS, REPORTER, NEWSRADIO 840 KXNT: The defense basically is that O.J. did not know what was going to happen. O.J. basically says that it was other people that had planned it. He was just -- his main intention was to go and get his property back, and Clarence Stewart says that he had no part in the planning.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a friend at Simpson. He testified at trial, Tom Scotto.
Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us. Why did Simpson, your friend, believe that these items belonged to him?
TOM SCOTTO, FRIEND OF O.J. SIMPSON, TESTIFIED AT TRIAL: Well, they were personal items that were stolen out of his house.
GRACE: Really? Because the items that were taken, many of them, were not O.J. Simpson memorabilia.
SCOTT: Well, I think they all were memorabilia, and I don`t think they were memorabilia, they were personal items.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, what was stolen?
CASAREZ: Well, there were a lot of footballs that were O.J. Simpson game balls, there were baseballs that were Pete Rose signed baseballs, there were Montana lithographs, another star athlete, there was .
GRACE: OK, hold on just a moment, Jean.
What about that, Mr. Tom Scotto? Were the Pete Rose and Joe Montana items -- did they belong to O.J. Simpson?
SCOTTO: Well, I don`t believe that any of those items were taken out of that room.
GRACE: Well, they were, Mr. Scotto.
SCOTTO: If they were, they were maybe in a box that was not realized that they were there.
GRACE: So did those belong to Simpson?
SCOTTO: If they were Pete Rose balls in those boxes, they did not belong to Mr. Simpson.
GRACE: So.
SCOTTO: But nobody knew they were there.
GRACE: There you have it. Jean Casarez, that`s the defense? That is the defense?
CASAREZ: Well, the defense.
GRACE: I stole stuff that I didn`t know I stole?
CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, the defense here is truly the state of mind of O.J. Simpson. And you could say that it is toward a nullification offense. The emotional aspect of O.J. Simpson, seeing his possessions, and there were testimonies that he said in regard to the other stuff, we`ll bring it back. If it`s not yours, I want you to have it.
Now, the fact is, it was never returned and prosecutors say it doesn`t matter if O.J. Simpson said I`m going to bring it back, because the act of robbery occurred through the unlawful taking of the personal property in the possession of someone else here in Las Vegas.
GRACE: Jean, Jean, Jean, you`re talking like a lawyer. I talked to you about that before. How is the jury responding?
CASAREZ: You know, they`ve responded to both sides. I watched closely during closing arguments. They`ve taken notes through the whole trial, and they were actively engaged, even closing arguments, though, they went for hours, and the jury was still actively listening to everything.
G To Julianne Thomas with 840 KXNT, Simpson`s charms, a lot of the people on his first jury that acquitted him. Today, 13 years ago, did you see eye contact and any charming going on between Orenthal James Simpson and this jury?
THOMAS: Oh absolutely. When -- yesterday when they were leaving the courtroom, you could see O.J. smiling at them. And it seemed like, whoever would make contact with O.J., he would smile at them.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, let me -- let the other foot drop to that. Did the jurors smile back?
CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, I see a very professional O.J. Simpson in that courtroom. I see him (INAUDIBLE) his lawyers, I see him very curious.
GRACE: Yes, no, maybe. Yes, no, maybe.
CASAREZ: I don`t see smiles to the jury.
GRACE: Jean Casarez with "In Session," Mr. Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson, and Julianne Thomas, KXNT, the jury still deliberating.
Tight now, to CNN HEROES.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.
JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.
MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.
RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.
LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.
RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.
LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.
ANNOUNCER: Get involved, CNN.com/heroes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important, the people who touched our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another shocking development in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler, Caylee Anthony. A spokesman with the Orange County Sheriff`s Office confirmed the 22-year-old tot mom, Casey Anthony, is now a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think there`s physical evidence, there`s accumulating information that she has not been truthful with the police. And so this is a very challenging case for the defense.
GRACE: A 29-year-old beauty that worked in the futures industry has been found brutally murdered.
To Dr. Marty Makary, a friend of Ginny Orange.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: She was the perfect daughter, the perfect friend and a perfect employee.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. The police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39- year-old Shirley Riggs.
MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Since April 2006, this is her fourth abduction of these children at this time. And this mom has also served jail time.
GRACE: We`ve got a very special guest joining us tonight, the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey Anthony named as the kidnapper of her little girl.
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, MISSING TOT CAYLEE`S ALLEGED "BABYSITTER": We need to speak to you (INAUDIBLE) the disappearance of Caylee Anthony.
GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven. What was your immediate reaction? Had you ever even heard of Caylee Anthony?
GONZALEZ: No. I was in shock.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Lance Eakes, 25, Apex, North Carolina, on a second tour. A military policeman dreamed of being a cop back home, devoted to serving others and Iraqi children.
A member of the International Royal Rangers Ministry, loved kickboxing. Leaves behind grieving parents, John and Tammy.
Lance Eakes, American hero.
Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night tonight from the New York control room and happy birthday to one of our superstars, Derek. There he is. Precious, precious, precious.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
