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Missing Toddler`s Mother Asks Off House Arrest to Search

Aired October 6, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom, Casey, the prime suspect in baby Caylee`s disappearance, petitions the court to travel in secret, searching for Caylee. Until this, mom, Casey, refusing to cooperate with police, her own attorney even stating publicly she will not tell police what she knows because it`s, quote, "not in her best interests."

What`s her real motivation tonight? The defense demanding action to mom, Casey`s, car, including DNA, hair, chloroform all discovered in mom, Casey`s car trunk. They also want computers, cell phone records, polygraphs. And in the last hour, Texas Equusearch announces it is set to resume searching for little Caylee.

Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with your daughter, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s your daughter? What have you done with her?



911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff (INAUDIBLE) I found out my granddaughter has been (INAUDIBLE) She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what -- what...

CINDY ANTHONY: ... someone here now!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie, every single thing.



LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Casey began to break down and cry, and she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the little snothead. I`m assuming the little snothead to be who?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you believe that when she`s -- when she`s referring to the little snothead here, she`s talking about her daughter.



GRACE: And tonight, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson guilty. Thirteen years to the day of his "not guilty" in the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, a Vegas jury brings down the hammer in a Vegas armed robbery. Simpson goes down on 12 counts, including armed robbery and kidnap, after he blasts into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with an estimated $100,000 in sports memorabilia, and it`s all caught on tape. Primetime exclusive tonight, a key witness from the trial with us live.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled case find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, as follows. Count 1, conspiracy to commit a crime, guilty. Count 2, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, guilty. Count 3, conspiracy to commit robbery, guilty. Count 4, burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon, guilty. Burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon. Count 5, first-degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 6, first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon. Count 7, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon. Count 8, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 9, assault with a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 10, assault with a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 11, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, alternative to count 5, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon. Count 12, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, alternative to count 6, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, why did you wait four months to say that you want to look for Caylee?



CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter where`s Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?

CINDY ANTHONY: She didn`t know.


CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our purpose of coming here was to do what, go where?

CASEY ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we`re wasting time, valuable time that ought to be spent looking for your daughter.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`d be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching, if she could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter, and apparently still hasn`t.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.


CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.



LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.


CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately.


GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO Newsradio. Drew, what`s the latest? What do you mean she wants out of house arrest? She should be in jail, number one. But now she wants to get off house arrest and go on a secret search for Caylee? Flashback. Before you answer that question, when she was out on bond the first time, she did not lift one little pinkie, not one finger to help find Caylee, so why now?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: You know, it`s hard to say what she`s thinking inside her head, but the facts are that this Friday at 10:30 in the morning, there will be a hearing in Orange County court, where her attorney, Jose Baez, will argue that his client should be allowed off house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case. You know, a little add-on to that that`s interesting is that they want the times, the places and the dates of these searches to be kept from public knowledge.

GRACE: So what is supposed to be a "place of interest" in this case, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: I mean, that`s not specified in the motion, but I mean, you could imagine, you know, Casey`s boyfriend`s house, Tony Lazaro (ph), to the places where she said that she dropped off Caylee with the nanny, to the airport, to, you know, some of the search sites would all be places that you would think would be considered places of interest in this case, at least.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot of updates in the search for little Caylee. Right now, mom, Casey Anthony, wants off of house arrest so she can travel freely and in secret to search for her little girl.

Drew Petrimoulx, does this also include out of state?

PETRIMOULX: That`s not specified, either. And you know, what also isn`t -- he doesn`t say if he wants the sheriff`s deputy or any kind of investigators to accompany her, or if he thinks that she`s just going to be able to take a flight out of town and go looking, which you would expect that that would be something that the sheriff`s office and people involved in this case would be, you know, hard pressed to let her do.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, family law attorney/child advocate Sue Moss. Also with us out of New York, defense attorney Richard Herman. And joining us out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless.

Sue Moss, I don`t even understand this. I`ve never seen a motion like this before. You know, she should be on her hands and knees thanking her stars, her lucky stars, she got house arrest. And now this?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Her attempts to travel will be denied by the gavel. There`s just no way. This woman had 31 days, and she did nothing. Where is she going to travel to? Is there going to be another hot body contest in the local saloon? It`s absolutely ridiculous! This judge will say no and it`s deserved.

GRACE: Lawless?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I find myself agreeing with Sue Moss. I think the judge is going to deny the application. I think some of her requests for evidence relating to the investigation might be relevant discovery in the charges against her, but I can`t see under any circumstances the judge releasing her to go look for her daughter.

GRACE: Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not going to release her. But why not, Nancy? How could it hurt? Put a GPS on her, make it supervised, and let her go out there and try to do it. We want the child to come back.

GRACE: Yes. You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: You know, I think she missed one of the barstools at Fusian lounge and bar, OK, because she was under every other barstool in town looking for Caylee. It`s complete BS!

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: She needs to go right back home -- well, she needs to be in jail, number one.

HERMAN: Why? It`s a child neglect only, Nancy. They didn`t charge her with homicide.


HERMAN: So she made bail. So she`s out on bail. She`s on house arrest, and that`s different.

GRACE: So I disagree. I don`t think she should be out on bail. But you know what? Speaking of bail, let`s go to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of California who first made her first $500,000 bond. What do you make of this motion? Mom, Casey Anthony, she`s not happy lounging on the sofa at home watching "General Hospital." Now she wants out to go search for Caylee in secret.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my first concern would be that -- we had her out on a bond for I believe it was nine days. And she never once -- never once did she say, Drive me here, or, Call here, or, Go there, none of that at all.

The other thing is, she`s -- she`s made threats through her MySpace and things of that nature. And I`d be concerned that maybe she`d go out there and -- because she wants her position where she`s at during the day kept a secret, that she might rally some support to actually cause somebody some harm. And the third situation...

GRACE: What do you mean she`s made threats?

PADILLA: Well, she has sent threats out like, you know, We`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla, and she`s -- you know, she`s promulgated some of that stuff.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait. Where did you see this?

PADILLA: It`s on her MySpace to her boyfriend...

GRACE: And exactly what did it say?

PADILLA: As soon as I get out of here, or something to that effect, we`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla.

GRACE: OK. Susan Moss, wouldn`t that be a little bit of a violation?

MOSS: Absolutely. I can`t believe -- that should be brought to the authorities immediately and she should be re-arrested!

GRACE: She is out on bond, and if that is true, that is a violation of her bond conditions.

MOSS: Nobody goes after cowboy Leonard.

GRACE: Well, apparently, she is planning to. What about it, Richard Herman? Take off your defense attorney hat just one moment. Would you let your client get on MySpace and make threats while they`re out on bond?

HERMAN: Nancy, I would not allow a client to do that, but I don`t believe the client did that because I don`t believe Padilla. So I don`t believe it happened.

GRACE: Oh, so he believes, I guess, Joe Lawless, that somebody else hacked into her MySpace and issued threats personal to her.

LAWLESS: ... MySpace page. If I were her lawyer, I certainly wouldn`t allow her to do it, but I don`t know if she`d be crazy enough to do something like that because she`s have to know it would violate her bond. I`d like to see the evidence.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony strutted away from her meeting with her case manager at the jail today, this time no big sunglasses but very heavy eye makeup. Her attorney hopes to convince circuit judge Stan Strickland (ph) on Friday to allow Casey to travel secretly to places of interest in this case to, quote, "assist with the search" of missing child Caylee Anthony. One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter and apparently still hasn`t.


GRACE: You were just seeing a shot from today, mom, Casey Anthony, going to her home confinement meeting. We are taking your calls live. A lot of developments. Texas Equusearch has now announced it is ready to resume searching for little Caylee. Also tonight, we learned that mom, Casey Anthony, has petitioned the court to travel secretly to places of interest in the investigation. She now says she wants to search for little Caylee.

Is it true -- to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the get-go. Natisha, why doesn`t she go to any of the vigils?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, it`s a safety concern. There are protesters out there and they do not want to expose Casey to the wrath of these protesters who have been outside. So she is inside the house, watching but not participating in the vigils.

GRACE: Another motion has been filed to get access to any and all polygraphs that have been administered, and any polygraphs that would be administered in the future. The defense also wants the history of the polygraph machine itself.

Let`s go to the polygraph expert, Jack Trimarco. He is the former FBI polygraph unit chief in LA. Jack, thank you for being with us. What do they mean when they say they want the records on the polygraph machine itself?

JACK TRIMARCO, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Nancy, as a many time visitor to your show over the years, I`d like to do something I`ve never done before and that is deflect your question for a moment. One of the defense attorneys made a comment about the honesty of Leonard Padilla, and I`d like to just say that from 1978 to 1981, I worked many fugitive cases with Leonard Padilla. I was a young FBI agent then. And when Leonard Padilla gives you his word or says something on the record, you take it to the bank. He`s one of the most honest people...

GRACE: OK, can we talk about polygraphs now?

TRIMARCO: ... I know. Polygraph...

GRACE: You know, you should probably save that for a eulogy or the Kiwanis award.


GRACE: Let`s get down to the brass tacks.

TRIMARCO: Hey, it is what it is.


TRIMARCO: It is what it is.

GRACE: No. I want to know about the polygraph now. I want to find out about why they have petitioned to get the records. It`s like you`re getting the records on a car when you buy your car over at Carmax and you want to find when it`s been lubed. What do they want to find out about the polygraph machine itself?

TRIMARCO: Well, first of all, who took the polygraph? I haven`t heard that anybody`s taken a polygraph test. First and foremost, who took the polygraph...

GRACE: Do I need to ask the cop?

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: Can you just...

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: ... tell me why you want records on a polygraph machine?

TRIMARCO: Secondly, we want to know, did the police do the polygraph or did a private attorney do the polygraph. All the difference in the world. If the police did it, you`re blowing in the wind. You`re not going to get anything. This is an ongoing investigation. There aren`t going to be any reports that are turned over by a motion blowing in the wind. If it`s a private attorney who has had his client polygraphed, then it`s attorney-client privilege. You`re still not going to get anything. So I have no idea...

GRACE: To Brian Reich...

TRIMARCO: ... what they`re doing.

GRACE: ... the deputy chief at Bergen County sheriff`s office, who would an attorney hope to gain by asking for the records on a polygraph machine?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY, NJ, SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, they`re going to want to look at the -- first of all, the certification of the polygraph examiner. They`re going to look at the equipment itself. Has it been calibrated? The software, the use, the procedure. They`re going to want to try to challenge the expert opinion because, a polygraph isn`t a lie detector test. It`s a physiological measurement of a person`s response to the stress of lying. So they`re going to want to challenge that particular polygraph expert`s opinion and interpretation of those physiological responses that the subject made, whether they said they were truthful or untruthful or inconclusive. They`re going to try to challenge that.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Kellie in Indiana. Hi, Kellie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you.

GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two quick questions. Why did Universal Studios fire Casey two years ago? And then lastly, why wasn`t a police sketch ever done of Zenaida Gonzalez?

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx. Do we know why Universal fired her?

PETRIMOULX: I don`t think we do. And as far as the sketches of Zenaida Gonzalez, one interesting thing about that is I believe there was a sketch, or at least a photo line-up presented to Casey Anthony in the very beginning of the case, and she actually wasn`t able to pick out the Zenaida Gonzalez that we all know now, the one that was on your show a couple nights ago. So that hasn`t been talked about much, but that`s another interesting part of this whole case.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Any idea why Universal fired mom, Casey Anthony?

LANCE: That`s not been made available at this point. But going back to Zenaida Gonzalez, there has not been a sketched released at this point because police do not want to send people out on a wild goose chase. Say they give a sketch based on what Casey has said, which most of the things that she said have been lies at this point, they put that out there and they could possibly go after the wrong person.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless. Back to Richard Herman. Also, Richard, wouldn`t you as a defense attorney use it at trial when a murder case finally happens, if it ever happens, that the police are putting out a sketch for the kidnapper this far into the investigation, that they even at this point in the investigation believe it`s just a kidnapping?

HERMAN: Yes, Nancy, of course. I would use that any way I could to try to discredit the investigation.

GRACE: What about it, Lawless?

LAWLESS: I think what they`re trying to do is get evidence or discovery now for an eventual murder case. I think some of it`s going to be relevant in the current charges, but I definitely think they`re looking for evidence for, I think, a murder charge that`s going to come.

GRACE: Susan?

MOSS: Zanny nanny. If you were to put out a sketch of Zenaida Gonzalez, somebody who was innocent might get hurt.

GRACE: To Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, joining us tonight from LA. We now see mom, Casey Anthony, chafing at the bit at house arrest. How do you read it?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I read it a couple ways. It is possible that she`s trying to sort of establish herself as suddenly interested. It`s also possible that she`s been trying to protect herself all along. Maybe she gave her daughter to someone. Maybe she knows her whereabouts. And maybe she`s been concerned about her own safety or she`s been threatened, and now with the cloak of protection, is willing to go search for her daughter.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey -- she`d be standing here by all of us. She`s be out searching if she could.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that Sister told you that, Because I`m a spiteful (DELETED). And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or did she just whisper that to you, or what was the context of...

LEE ANTHONY: She didn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it -- necessarily make it a point to say it as loud so my mom can hear it when I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)


GRACE: Tonight, motions filed by the defense for mom, Casey Anthony, demanding the court allow her off house arrest to travel freely and in secret.

To our producer Ellie Jostad. Ellie, explain to me what the other motions are.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE MANAGING EDITOR: The other motions that they`ve asked for, I think the most significant is they`ve asked to see the chloroform, DNA and hair evidence that was allegedly found in Casey Anthony`s car. They also want one of their experts to be allowed to also independently look at that car, and they want all the computer and cell phone records.

GRACE: Let me go back to the lawyers regarding these motions. What do you make of them, Susan Moss?

MOSS: As Jose say would say, she hasn`t been charged yet in the disappearance of Caylee, so I think most of these motions are premature.

GRACE: Premature. So they`re not ripe yet. Let`s go to Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist. The search is about to resume for Caylee. What can you expect to find at this juncture, Doctor?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, if, in fact, Caylee is deceased and has been so many months now, I would expect that the body would be decomposed to a different extent depending up on the environmental conditions. But maybe the child is alive. We don`t know.



O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYER: Don`t let nobody outta here man. And you -- I trusted you man.




SIMPSON: Where`d you get all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) personal (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I bought it from Mike.

ALFRED BEARDSLEY, MEMORABILIA DEALER: Mike sold it, all right? You know.

SIMPSON: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. Bag it. Bag it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said they were friends of yours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring it in?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An the appeal, obviously, is being planned. Simpson found guilty on all charges, 12 in total. His attempt to get memorabilia back from the dealer -- that was his excuse. He could get life in prison when he`s sentenced December 5th. Again, his attorneys planning an appeal.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: It`s been a long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.

To legal correspondent with "In Session," Jean Casarez, what happened in the courtroom when the verdict came down?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, there was stillness, there was absolute stillness, and all of a sudden you start hearing guilty, guilty, guilty for co-defendant Clarence Stewart.

I knew right then and there O.J. Simpson was going to be the same.

GRACE: Joining me is the sports memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and the author of"Busted" Thomas Riccio is joining us in a primetime exclusive.

Mr, Riccio, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Mr. Riccio, what do -- what do you make of the verdict?

RICCIO: I was shocked as anybody. You know, he made some mistakes. He -- at the end after I was done testifying, I realized he did know about the guns and he covered it up. But, you know, I didn`t think he knew about the armed robbery.

I think the guys with the guns sort of did that on their own, and sort of freelanced that play on their own, and -- but he`s paying for it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mr. Riccio, are you telling me you do not believe that he knew a gun was involved?

RICCIO: No, no, no, I do believe at this point -- I didn`t up until I testified. At this point I do believe he knew a gun was in the room. He just didn`t know that these guys are going to pull it, I don`t believe that, and commit an armed robbery and steal Joe Montana with those.

But he is responsible for something. I just don`t think he -- as many charges as he got, but they wanted him, and they got him.

GRACE: OK, Mr. Riccio, let me get this straight. Didn`t he bust into a casino private hotel room, with a posse that pulled a gun?

RICCIO: He didn`t bust in. I let him in. And it was.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

RICCIO: It was supposed to be to retrieve his stuff back, but you`re right, it turned into an armed robbery. It definitely did.

GRACE: Can I ask you a question?


GRACE: Did Mr. Simpson come into your room.


GRACE: . and along with him have individuals that possessed a or some guns, and take items that did not belong to them?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: OK. That, under the law, is an armed robbery. So which verdict do you have a problem with? Do you think he`s not guilty of?

RICCIO: Well, I mean, after you see the whole picture, which is, basically, you know, he asked the guy to actually act as security for him, and this guy goes out and gets a video, a spy cam to commit an armed robbery.

You know it just seems obvious -- I mean these guys had their own agenda, but, you know, the public wanted him, they got him. There`s nothing anybody can do about it.

GRACE: Well, let me repeat my question, which verdict do you have a problem with?

RICCIO: You know, the conspiracy to commit armed robbery. I don`t think he wanted to -- or armed robbery. He was trying to get his stuff back and he has those guys there as security.

GRACE: Oh really? So, sir, are you telling me that some of the memorabilia you had actually belonged to O.J. Simpson, it wasn`t yours?

RICCIO: No, it wasn`t -- it wasn`t mine. It belonged -- it`s kind of complicated. I realized that, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, it sounds like it.

RICCIO: It really is complicated. And it`s hard to.

GRACE: So were you selling stolen items?

RICCIO: No, again, you don`t have all the facts. It wasn`t me selling it. I was helping O.J. get it back from these guys who told me it was stolen. And O.J. was supposed to go in there, identify the stuff.


RICCIO: I gave him the option of turning it over to the police or turn it over to him. And it turned it into.


RICCIO: It turned into an armed robbery.

GRACE: Yes, because in all those tapes, I never heard anybody talking about going down to the police station.

To Jean Casarez, make some sense out of this.

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, Nancy, according to Nevada law, it doesn`t matter whose property was, even if it was all previously O.J. Simpson`s property, you can`t go into a hotel room with a gun and demand that back.

Furthermore, the fact is, according to the law, it`s very clear what robbery is, and this case fit the elements of the crime. And kidnapping in Nevada can be luring to a location through deceivery and trick, and that was the independent movement. And that`s what constituted the kidnapping in this case.

GRACE: What do you make of Mr. Riccio`s statement?

CASAREZ: Well, what -- Mr. Riccio is -- I consider him a friend of O.J. Simpson. He testified for the prosecution, but I know that he has had empathetic feelings for O.J. Simpson.

The fact is, it doesn`t matter whose property it is, and the fact is they went in with the guns and the jury said we discounted all witnesses altogether. The credibility of witnesses we felt was incredible. We looked at the audio tapes.

GRACE: Joining us right now, Jonathan Polak, attorney for the Goldman family. And they have been unable to get any of the money judgment levied against O.J. Simpson way back when after the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

What do you make of this verdict?

JONATHAN POLAK, ATTORNEY FOR MURDER VICTIM RON GOLDMAN`S FAMILY: It`s wonderful. Justice, finally, for the Goldman Family, but this is something that has been 13 years too long.

GRACE: If anyone is in doubt whether this verdict is justified, take a listen.


SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?


SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You think can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to get the basketball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk your ass over there.

SIMPSON: Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike took it. Mike took it.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I know what Brian`s trying to prove.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to ask you one more (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The doughboy came and got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although Mike sold this to Bruce, man. He sold.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, O.J., you know all about this stuff.

SIMPSON: No, man. You all didn`t know about this.


BEARDSLEY: No, I sold it out about two years ago, O.J.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lawyer`s at the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hotel waiting right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) problem with you man. Are you mad at me?

SIMPSON: I thought you were straight shooter, man.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re sitting here with all this (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He should be mad at you.


GRACE: Joining us right now, another special guest, Tom Scotto, friend of Orenthal James Simpson. He testified at trial, and he was with Mr. Simpson just before tonight`s show.

Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: How was Simpson when you visited him? Is it sinking in, he`s finally in jail?

SCOTTO: Yes, I mean, it`s definitely sinking in, he`s in shock, just like everybody else.

GRACE: You really believe that everybody else is in shock, Mr. Scotto?

SCOTTO: Everybody I speak to, everybody that was in the courtroom, every reporter I spoke to, everybody`s in shock. Nobody expected this kind of verdict.


SCOTTO: Because I think he was overcharged, and I don`t -- first of all, I don`t see where it was an armed robbery where they voluntary handed over the items to him.

GRACE: Well, if you had a gun in your face, wouldn`t you hand over the items?

SCOTTO: Yes, you know, he brought a security guard with him. He`s had security all his life, but that doesn`t give him -- I don`t think it makes him at fault if somebody allegedly somebody pulled out a gun. O.J. did not tell anybody to pull out a gun.

GRACE: Now, in the tape recordings, Simpson is clearly heard asking when the gun was pulled?

SCOTTO: Yes. He asked if they pulled the gun. I don`t think he -- I don`t think you hear anything on the tapes about pull a gun or anything about guns in that room.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, isn`t there sound that this jury heard of Simpson asking about the piece?

CASAREZ: And they talked about that in the jury press conference. It`s a Michael McClinton audiotape, and it`s where prosecutors said O.J. Simpson said, come on, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, did you?

Jurors said they listened to that over and over and over again in that jury room, and they had no question that that is exactly what O.J. Simpson said.

GRACE: I mean there -- he -- Simpson -- I`ve got it right here, I`ve got the transcript. Simpson is talking about the video -- because it`s a casino, there`s video everywhere -- and Simpson says, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, where is there a video, and the guy is saying, no, no, I didn`t do it in the hall. Right, Jean?

CASAREZ: But, Nancy, the defense is saying that`s not at all what O.J. said. He said you didn`t tell police in the hall, did you?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want him to keep the phones?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just my personal phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put those (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phones on the bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. You too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t break it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, man, shut your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mouth before you get your ass broke.





FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN`S FATHER: Well, I think we`re all elated that this guy`s going to be in jail where he belongs, and 13 -- the number 13 now will perhaps be a lucky number for us and be an unlucky number for him.

YALE GALANTER, SIMPSON ATTORNEY: 13 years ago, 13 hours of deliberation, and, you know, it`s eerie. It really is. It`s eerie. You know I don`t know what to think of it just yet, but it`s either a very strange coincidence or somebody is sending us a really powerful message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s reports right now that we`ve had some kind of vendetta against Mr. Simpson for what he did 13 years ago, and that in no way had anything to do with this case whatsoever.


GRACE: Guilty, O.J. Simpson now behind bars, but not for double murder. Those are the charges 13 years ago. Now it`s for armed robbery in a Vegas casino hotel room, about $100,000 worth of sports memorabilia, none of which belonged to Mr. Simpson, according to prosecutors.

Joining us, Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and author of "Busted." Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session."

Jean, it seems to me after reviewing the trial transcript that I have so far, that Mr. Riccio`s story has changed a tiny bit.

CASAREZ: Well, I`m curious about that. In the trial he specifically said in testimony, prosecutors, I cannot help you in regard to whether O.J. Simpson knew or didn`t know that there was a gun in that room.

Now on your show tonight, I`m hearing him say that O.J. Simpson did know about the gun.

GRACE: So Mr. Riccio, which one is it?

RICCIO: Well, I -- I just said that in the beginning of the show, that at the point of my testimony, I didn`t know, then I listened to Walter Alexander sort of confess to the whole thing that O.J. Simpson asked for security with a licensed security guard, and that guy came to the incident and pulled out a gun.

He had a video camera on him so that he could create a scene and sell it to the tabloids. I learned that along with everyone else the day after I testified, when Walter Alexander testified.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez -- Jean, did any of the items rightfully belong to Orenthal James Simpson?

CASAREZ: At one time they were in his trophy room. Prosecutors say that those were the things that were taken out on the night before the turnover order was executed, where all items were going to go to the Goldmans, and they were dispersed to storage units around California.

GRACE: And how did they end up in a sports memorabilia auction, I guess it would be, or sale?

CASAREZ: It`s pretty involved. Some were in storage units, some were in the hands of Mike Gilbert. They were either sold or given to Bruce Fromong. Bruce Fromong had possession of them, he lived in Las Vegas, and that`s how it happened. It all came down here in California.

Furthermore Thomas Riccio testified that O.J. said it couldn`t have happened in California because of those turnover orders.

GRACE: But bottom line, Jean Casarez, did the jury perceive that any of these items actually belonged to Simpson?

CASAREZ: I specifically asked them that question. Did you look at the defense? Because the defense here was state of mind.

GRACE: Right.

CASAREZ: That it was his stuff, and he wanted to recover it. They said, we didn`t, because under the law, we couldn`t. The law is very clear.

GRACE: The law is clear.

CASAREZ: If you take property through force, fear or violence -- and it doesn`t matter who owns it -- that in the state of Nevada is robber robbery.

GRACE: And yes/no, Jean Casarez, is it true the defense actually wants an appeal bond?

CASAREZ: They definitely do. There is going to be a ferocious appeal in this case.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, an appeal bond? They want him out on an appeal while -- out on bond while this goes up on appeal? That could be for years.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW AND CHILD ADVOCATE: I don`t think they`ll do it. I mean, who knows, maybe if he had worn gloves, he would have gotten away with it, but the reality is, is that audiotape and those videotapes were so clear that that`s how this jury was turned.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, in this case, explain to me, do sheriffs even look at ownership of the items in a theft when they were taken at gunpoint?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: WRIGHT: Absolutely not. You know just because somebody steals something from you doesn`t mean you can barge in to their home or their hotel room with a gun and rob people.

It has absolutely no bearing on this case, whatsoever, whether he owned it or not, whether it was in Nevada, New Jersey or any other state. You can`t rob people and stick them up at gunpoint.

GRACE: To Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson who visited him just before the show tonight, what is his jail cell like?

SCOTTO: That I don`t really know. I haven`t seen his cell.

GRACE: Where did you visit him, in the visitation room?


GRACE: What were his spirits?

SCOTTO: He`s trying to be positive. Obviously, he`s very upset, he`s distraught. He`s -- like I said before, he`s in shock.

GRACE: Well, since he`s going to be in jail for about 15 years, has he thought of selling his home and giving that money to the Goldmans and the Browns?

SCOTTO: Well, that -- that I don`t know.

GRACE: How about his family?

SCOTTO: Well, we`re staying with his family. His family is, obviously, very upset. Everybody`s very upset. I mean, this is -- you know, to everybody else that doesn`t like O.J., this is -- this is not justice. I don`t think there was justice served here at all.

GRACE: Why? Why?

SCOTTO: Because, basically, he went to retrieve items that were stolen from him. He didn`t barge into any hotel room. It was Tom Riccio`s room. Tom Riccio let him in the room.

And everybody in this case, every witness tried setting him up with cameras, audio tapes, to basically make money. Before they called 911 they called "Inside Edition".

GRACE: Mr. Scotto.

SCOTTO: . to see how much money they could get for the story.

GRACE: . can I ask you something?


GRACE: These items, the few of the items that Simpson said belonged to him, amazingly went missing from his home the night before sheriffs could take them and give them to the Goldman and Brown family.

Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s not true. That`s not true.

GRACE: Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s -- these -- these items were items that were left in the house after they served the turnover order. The footballs were Justin`s footballs. They were in his room. These are items that were left in the house by the sheriff`s department and were not taken.

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

SCOTTO: These were personal items.

CASAREZ: Well, I -- the items according to prosecutors were dispersed to storage units around California. They could not get that evidence in. But we have heard it and we have read it in some books.



GOLDMAN: We`re absolutely thrilled to see that the potential is that he could spend the rest of his life in jail where that scumbag belongs.


GRACE: Straight out to Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial.

Mr. Riccio, weren`t they your audio tapes that were brought into trial?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Why did you tape them?

RICCIO: Why did I tape it? Again, it`s such a long story to go in here for a couple of minutes. But there was a mentally insane guy, criminally insane, Al Beardsley, who I was taping since 2004, ripped off my company.

O.J. knew he was nuts. And I -- I had the tape up in the room because of that. Everyone knows I knew nothing about the guns. I was as surprised.

GRACE: But why did you tape Simpson?

RICCIO: He was in the room along with -- Al Beardsley was the guy who was trying to sell me the stolen goods. We went to the cops. We went to the FBI. They had no interest. So me and O.J. organized this sting against Beardsley and Fromong to get the stuff back.

And that`s why -- and I was taping the whole thing. But we didn`t have any idea -- I didn`t have any idea a gun was coming out.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

ANN, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You just keep fighting the good fight, girl.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you very much.

ANN: Quick question. OK.

GRACE: What`s your question?

ANN: I get that O.J. says he did not know about the gun. But I`m curious just what he was willing to risk. Had there been no guns in the room, what would have been the worse thing he could have gotten?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: Boy, I think that`s an important question, Ann. If there were no guns, that would be a simple robbery. And let me tell you the significance of that. That is probationable.

And I think Tom Scotto made a critical point a little bit ago, without the tapes, I question whether there would be convictions in this case.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer First Class Cherie Morton, 40, Bakersfield, California, awarded four Good Conduct Medals, two Navy Achievement medals, also served the Air Force.

Caring, dedicated to others, loved traveling, cruises with family, bingo. Leaves behind parents Mary and Richard, son, Ryan.

Cherie Morton, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us tonight. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.