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Nancy Grace
Homicide Charge May Be Brought Against Missing Toddler`s Mother
Aired October 08, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Reports surface the state is set to seek homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. WKMG reports the case heads to a secret grand jury in days. The only question, will the charge be manslaughter or murder? Even without a body, homicide charges reportedly will be handed down.
And in the last hours, hundreds of stunning documents and grainy surveillance video released. Mom, Casey, allegedly forges a stack of checks at the bank, Target, the grocery store, you name it! And it`s all caught on tape. Her 2-year-old vanishes, and she`s on surveillance video splurging on lingerie, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, groceries for the boyfriends, even cases of Bud Lite. Notably, not one diaper, not one pacifier, not a toy -- nothing! -- for little Caylee. This as police confirm a surveillance camera trained 24/7/365 on the Anthony home. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that tot mom Casey Anthony may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter. The station`s reporting that the state attorney`s office plans to present its case to a grand jury next week, who will then determine if the state has enough evidence to charge Anthony with manslaughter or murder. According to WKMG, the state hopes to charge Anthony even without Caylee`s body being found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Regardless of how it happened -- (INAUDIBLE) I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal, I will do whatever I can to find my daughter.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee, is missing. So what`s she doing? She`s out buying lingerie. Check out the video here. It`s Casey checking out at Target, buying the food, beer, the lingerie, of course. Prosecutors say she paid for that and other stuff by cashing hundreds of dollars worth of checks from her friend`s bank account, and today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check number 146 from her ex-best friend`s checkbook. Investigators say this is one of the checks she used to clean out Amy Huizenga`s checking account.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother -- came in and she goes, I hope you`re rich because Casey`s going to take all your money and leave you high and dry.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huh?
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace, I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Sources tell CNN affiliate WKMG that Caylee`s mother, 22-year-old Casey Anthony, could be facing homicide charges in the coming days. The Orlando station reports the grand jury is expected to meet next week, and that is where prosecutors will present their case, asking the grand jury to conclude they have enough evidence to take Anthony to trial on manslaughter or murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Records show Amy Huizenga told detectives Casey stole her checkbook and emptied her account, writing more than $700 in forged checks to Target, Winn Dixie, and even to herself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I kept say, Well, I don`t get it. What`s in it for you? Why are you letting, you know, the police get involved with this? This seems -- this doesn`t make any sense to me. She`s, like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago. I`ve stolen money from Mom. I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said, I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know. And she goes, And maybe I have been a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister. And she said, you know, So this should have been done a long time ago.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lied to us purposely (ph), or you tried to mislead us. Which of those two is it?
CASEY ANTHONY: I purposely misled you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you purposely misled us. This was all in an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Again, in a backwards sort of way, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with CNN affiliate WKMG, who broke the story that prosecutors plan to seek homicide charges in the coming days against tot mom Casey Anthony. Jessica, what do you know?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, they are going to bring this in front of a grand jury on Tuesday. I`m still trying to find out whether they are planning to bring a manslaughter charge or whether they want to present a murder charge in front of this grand jury.
But I can tell you that people have already been asked to clear their schedules for Tuesday because they are going to be subpoenaed to appear in front of that grand jury and testify in front of them. You`re going to see friends, you`re going to see family, you`re going to see detectives, you`re going to see lab techs subpoenaed to go and testify in front of this grand jury. And of course, Casey could be subpoenaed, as well, but she does not have to talk to them.
Now, as we have been mentioning, you know, you can bring this case and prosecute without a body, and you know, if they can`t convince this grand jury to go and send this to trial, we know that they can still try and try again after that because murder has no statute of limitations here. And you`ve got to remember, too, that the prosecution, as we have been reporting for weeks now, they have hair samples, air samples, cadaver dogs alerting to a decomposing body in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. And you also have that chloroform found at high levels in the trunk.
So you also have to remember, too, we might not know everything that the prosecution has at this point. They could have a much stronger case than we know. So we`re going to see what happens...
GRACE: We just lost Jessica. We`ll get her right back up. That`s Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from Orlando, Florida. She`s with WKMG that breaks the story, murder charge, homicide charges set to come down in the coming days.
We are taking your calls live. We`ll be right back with Jessica. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta and fellow defense attorney John Burris out of San Francisco. John Burris, why would you give the grand jury anything less than a murder case? Because it will be up to a petite jury, which is a jury of 12 -- a grand jury is a jury between 18 and 43 people that simply bring the charges -- and then let the jury of 12 decide whether it will be voluntary, involuntary, murder, murder one or not guilty.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, I agree with you on this because I think, given that they do not have -- the evidence that they have, if they`re going to use it for any kind of homicide, can be used either for murder or manslaughter because, actually, they have no information as to whether it`s murder or manslaughter.
So I think that what they`re really doing here is throwing the kitchen sink out here and see if something will stick. But once you do that, it could be murder or manslaughter because you don`t have the mens rea, the mental state, to tell you what actually happened during the course of this homicide, assuming that there is a homicide. You know...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Hold your horses, John, because one thing, and it`s very critical as to the date of this element, the search on Casey Anthony`s computer regarding chloroform. That, to me, would suggest premeditation, since chloroform in large amounts was found in her car trunk, along with evidence of a dead body. That in itself could prove premeditation for murder one.
BURRIS: Well, that`s true. I mean, I don`t disagree that there`s evidence out here that would cause that. But I don`t know that you take these things apiece by themselves and take the chloroform and put that out there, I don`t know that that proves anything other than it`s chloroform. You don`t have any...
GRACE: Well -- hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey...
BURRIS: ... way to tie it into...
GRACE: ... hey, hey, hey! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! We`re not at the jury rail yet, Burris!
BURRIS: Oh, no question about it.
GRACE: We`re still going to the grand jury. Right now...
BURRIS: You`re right.
GRACE: ... all we`re getting is a charging document. Yes, no, Renee Rockwell?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me just put it this way, Nancy. I think they`re going to present what they have. And we don`t know what they have. But Nancy, if they throw it all up now and the jury says, No, you don`t have enough, they`re not out of the ball game. They can come back three months from now. So it`ll be interesting to see what does shake out from this grand jury.
GRACE: And she`s referring to -- Renee is referring to the ability for the state to go to a grand jury, a secret grand jury, repeatedly in order to get charges handed down. Not so before a petite jury, a jury of 12. Once you take the case to a jury at trial, that`s it. You cannot retry the case if there is an acquittal.
Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. You said this may be presented to a grand jury for homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony as early as Tuesday?
D`ONOFRIO: That`s right, Nancy. That`s what they`d like to do. This grand jury has been sitting for a few months now, so I believe they`re going to get this in. This will be the last case that the grand jury hears on Tuesday before it dissolves, and then they`ll be seating a brand-new grand jury for the next couple months ahead.
So I believe that Lawson Lamar (ph), our state attorney, is going to get this case in front of this grand jury before they`re dissolved and before another one has to be seated.
GRACE: Right now, you are seeing footage we have just obtained of mom, Casey Anthony`s, shopping spree throughout the days following her little girl`s disappearance.
And out to you, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, if I were conducting a search for somebody that I loved that had gone missing, you got to have a couple of these along with you!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: You know, she goes out and buys sexy lingerie, cases of beer, sportswear, sunglasses. In fact, she even buys that hoody that we see her going in and out of her lawyer`s office wearing, on somebody else`s checks. These are all stolen items.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Unbelievable, Nancy. And in fact, maybe she had on the new camisole underneath her hoody when she got locked up on July 16. But if you look at July 15, the day that her whole world came crumbling down, Amy Huizenga, her best friend`s checking account, that was $49.99, but her statement on June 20, there was $2,125.47. That`s what I call a really best friend.
GRACE: And I want to go back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and John Burris. There`s the hoody right there on the left that she basically stole, according to the state, with stolen checks. Her friend -- dropped her friend off at the airport. Isn`t this right, Mark Williams? Drops the friend, Amy Huizenga, off at the airport -- Mark with us, WNDB Newsradio -- and within a couple of hours has cleaned out her car of all the checks that were in the glove compartment. She`s out at Target.
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Oh, yes. She discovered those checks and she went on that shopping spree, eventually using about $1,300 worth of Amy`s money, anything from the hoodies to the bras to you name it, but nothing for Caylee.
GRACE: Mark, I don`t care about the bra and the items. What I care about is what does this mean about her state of mind regarding her missing little girl? Take a look. You decide. Look at her on her shopping spree.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I went day by day with Jesse, and he`s got a lot of discrepancies. In fact, I wrote down everything as he was talking to me, and he changed his story two and three times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesse not only took a voluntary lie detector and passed, he went to law enforcement and gave two official statements before Cindy`s even given one. In that interview, if you look, they can`t even get her to give them her credit card records.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve asked you for your credit card records. I asked you for that that same morning. Where are they?
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s nothing on there. We already looked at them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. See, that`s the answer I can`t have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news tonight, the state apparently taking this case to the grand jury next week, according to local affiliate WKMG. I`m not talking about bad checks or fraud, even though here you see on grainy surveillance video tot mom Casey Anthony loading up on the Bud Lite in her search for little Caylee. We`re talking about homicide charges.
We`re taking your calls live. Out to Luanne in South Carolina. Hi, Luanne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We really appreciate everything that you do.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have the facts straight, Casey had a huge argument with her mother before she left their house with Caylee, correct?
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I really think that whatever she did to Caylee, she did out of spite towards her mother. But how much time elapsed from the time she left her parents` house and when she was having these shopping sprees and also when the car was found?
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the beginning. What`s the timeline on that, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she had the argument on June 15. Now, she started the shopping spree on July 8, and the car was found at the Amscot, were (ph) reported there about June 30.
GRACE: There you go. Those are the dates, the relevant dates that Luanne in South Carolina wanted to know about. Repeat, Natisha. When was the car found at Amscot??
LANCE: June 30.
GRACE: June 30. She leaves June 15, car abandoned June 30. She`s still gone from the home. The family finds out about the car because they get a tow notice, correct, Natisha?
LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.
GRACE: And then the mom goes over to the boyfriend`s house to bring tot mom back home on what day?
LANCE: She goes over there on July 15.
GRACE: And the shopping spree that you are seeing for groceries for her boyfriend, a case of Bud Lite, bras, lingerie, nighties, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, food -- that`s just a tiny bit of what all she bought during her search for Caylee.
And you know -- to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining me out of Sacramento, California -- he first put up the $500,000 bond to get her out of jail before he came off that bond. I don`t care about the -- let`s see, the $14.99 nighty she bought or the case of beer. You know what? I`d be mad if you didn`t, Casey Anthony. But what I`m concerned about, Leonard, is what this will say to a jury when they see with their own eyes her state of mind while her child was missing.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The loudest statement that those purchases will make is there`s nothing in there -- there isn`t an item in there for Caylee.
But let me correct something that Natisha said. The car was actually spotted parked at the Amscot by Mrs. Sanchez (ph), the manager of the store there, on the morning of the 27. We believe and we are pretty sure we know that she came back out of Tony`s house around 10:00 o`clock that morning, drove the car off to her mom`s, called J.C. Penney, then went on further towards the airport, where -- my associate, Rob Dick, has narrowed down an area by the airport where he believes the body will be found. And Tim from Equusearch is headed out there in the morning. And I`m telling you, I`m putting my money on Tim finding that body before Tuesday.
GRACE: You know, another thing. And Natisha, there is a difference from the time the car was first spotted and when it was reported. I think you were accurate in your data on that, but Padilla is correct about the spotting, the day the car was spotted, run out of gas, there at the check cash place.
Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. You know, this list of people that may be going before the grand jury -- John Burris, very often, when I would present to a grand jury, I would bring on maybe the victim, if it were a violent crime, but typically, you bring on the detective. You don`t need a parade of witnesses. A detective, hearsay, the course of conduct, everything`s allowed in a grand jury proceeding, unlike at trial.
So very often, you don`t need a parade of witnesses. You can bring on one or two of the detectives on the case to present the case to the grand jury, John.
BURRIS: Well, that`s actually true. But I think that this case here, they want to present as much evidence as they can because, actually, a lot of this evidence is circumstantial. And they really want to get a -- some feedback, if they can, from the grand jury members to see how this evidence really is playing out. Typically, you would not go before the grand jury unless you thought you were going to get some kind of an indictment of some kind. But I think they also want to hear the feedback from the jury. They want to hear the firsthand testimony because otherwise, it may not be evidence that can withstand cross-examination.
GRACE: You know, Renee, I feel the exact opposite, as a former prosecutor, because I want to keep that case to the grand jury lean and mean. A detective can talk about hearsay, what every witness told him or her. Why bring in the witness for cross-examination because that grand jury transcript may have to be handed over to the defense come trial time. Why give them a how-to manual!
ROCKWELL: And if it is -- that testimony is transcribed and recorded and can be changed, and then you`ll have a witness that can be impeached. But Nancy, don`t you think it`s interesting that this is the last case of this grand jury term? And a lot of times, the prosecutor will strategically put a case in front of a well-seasoned and experienced grand jury because sometimes, you`ll get a different read from that grand jury than you will from a brand-new grand jury. I just think it`s interesting.
GRACE: I think that`s a good point. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the story. Jessica, you said that a lot of people may expect subpoenas to grand jury next week on homicide charges for mom, Casey Anthony. Have subpoenas been received yet?
D`ONOFRIO: No, Nancy, they haven`t. I haven`t heard that they have gone out today. You know, the question was, would they cut them today, tomorrow, maybe closer to Friday. I know that the initial plan was to send them out on Monday so that people would know to be there on Tuesday. However, they have a lot of people that they are likely serving for this grand jury, so it may take them a couple days to serve those subpoenas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face. You know, if there was laundry to be done, she would take care of that. You know, she would cook dinner sometimes in the evenings for us when we got home. I think one night, she made pasta for everyone.
GRACE: Did she ever mention over the pasta dinner that her 2-year-old girl was gone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bombshell tonight. According to WKMG`s Jessica D`Onofrio, homicide charges expected to come down next week before a Florida grand jury. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Any idea who will be called before the grand jury?
D`ONOFRIO: I know that George Anthony has been asked to clear his schedule for Tuesday. I know Cindy has, too. Those are two definites. I`ve also -- I also understand that you will hear from lab technicians, from detectives, that they will be subpoenaed, as well. And of course, you`re going to probably hear from her friends, Tony Lazzaro, him being an ex-boyfriend, and most likely Amy Huizenga.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I found out the -- night of the 15th when Casey actually was at my apartment, and her mother and Amy showed up to my house.
They left, and I had no idea. So I looked up Amy`s phone in Casey`s phone and gave her a call, and she notified me to check my bank account and everybody else in my apartment check their bank account because she took money from her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Just released and obtained by us, this surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony in the days after her little girl reportedly goes missing. There she is buying a case of Bud Lite along with different pit stops during her shopping spree, lingerie, clothing, sports wear, sunglasses, groceries for her boyfriend, and his roommates.
It`s not so much what she bought that is at issue tonight, as this case apparently heads to a grand jury on homicide charges. It`s the timing. Timing is crucial. These purchases made in the days and weeks following the alleged kidnapping by a nanny of her little girl.
A jury, a grand jury, as well, will be allowed to see this video to assess for themselves her demeanor.
Straight out to the lines, to Jennifer in Washington, hi, Jennifer.
JENNIFER, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi. First I have a comment, and then a question. My comment is -- it`s just nauseating to me that the general public who isn`t even blood lines with Caylee seems to show more concern for her than her own mother does.
And being that Casey seems to tell these huge whoppers of lies that are obviously going to be easily proven to be lies, I`m wondering, is her pathological lying -- is that a symptom of a mental illness? Is it a mental illness in its own right, or is it just what it is? It`s just her pathological lying to get whatever she wants.
GRACE: Excellent question, Jennifer in Washington.
Out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, what about it, Leslie?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s a great question. It`s one of a list of characteristics that are very, very powerfully indicating extreme sociopathy here. This is a person who`s perfectly happy to clearly break the law, is only concerned with herself, is not focused on her child, and is conducting apparently criminal behavior.
GRACE: OK.
AUSTIN: So the pathological lies exist.
GRACE: Can you speak -- speak in English for me? Sociopathy? Are you saying, Dr. Austin, that she has a legitimate mental illness?
AUSTIN: No, I`m not saying it`s...
GRACE: OK.
AUSTIN: . a mental illness that excuses her actions but it is descriptive of someone who would commit criminal acts. There`s a characteristic behavior.
GRACE: OK, yes, no?
AUSTIN: Yes, she would criminal act.
GRACE: Is it a symptom of a mental illness? That`s the question.
AUSTIN: It`s a personality disorder, not a mental illness.
GRACE: Got it.
AUSTIN: She.
GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Leslie Austin.
AUSTIN: OK.
GRACE: Back to the lines, June in Florida. Hi, June.
JUNE, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
JUNE: I have a couple of question. We see how Casey did her first search for her daughter. The judge, she is asking for a second search. Did the judge allow that? Have we.
GRACE: That is going to the judge on Friday. She will make a cameo appearance in court.
June, what`s your next question?
JUNE: And is Equifax or Equusearch, are they going to do another search this weekend? I live in Florida.
GRACE: June -- oh, June, good to know. Let`s go straight to Mandy Albritton, the deputy director of Equusearch.
Miss Albritton, thank you for being with us. You`re headed back -- Equusearch is headed back this week, correct?
MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, EQUUSEARCH: Well, actually, Tim Miller is on his way back into town. First he`s going to be meeting with Orlando on the (INAUDIBLE) case, but while he is down there, he is going to go ahead and review that search area where we were last time, look at the ground conditions, see if the water has receded, and if the vegetation is going to allow us to get in and search.
GRACE: So I take that as a yes. Equusearch is headed back to Florida, hopefully to search for Caylee.
ALBRITTON: Well, that is a yes. However, the official time line on when we`re actually going to have searchers in the field is yet to be determined. But, yes, we are coming back.
GRACE: To Mark Williams, the area that Leonard Padilla refers us to repeatedly, what type of area is that?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: It`s a typical unincorporated area of Orange County. We`re taking a look at a lot of woods, we`re taking a look at some water out in that area.
That`s why Equusearch really couldn`t get into the real good searching mode, because we had a tropical storm which blew through here a couple weeks ago.
GRACE: Right.
WILLIAMS: And what happened is some of these low-lying areas filled up and as Tim mentioned last night on the air, he didn`t want to go stepping on any evidence, like the horses or put anybody else in danger. But if anybody can find anybody, it will be Tim Miller.
GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. In a nutshell, where is it that you believe they`re going to search?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I don`t have the map here in front of me, but it`s just southeast of the home, northwest to the airport. There is a small area there where the two towers -- she was right in the middle of the two towers.
Now let me add something to this that`s very important. On the 27th after she goes back to Amscot and picks up her car, goes to the house, comes to this area, immediately thereafter, she calls Amy and she says, "I got rid of the smell in the car. I scraped off the squirrels."
You go to the transcripts, and you`ll read that and it`s a -- minutes after she leaves that area and goes back up north to Amscot.
GRACE: OK. And the area is south of what?
PADILLA: It`s south of the residence and north of the airport. It`s just right in between there.
GRACE: OK. To -- and that is a heavily wooded or swampy area, Leonard?
PADILLA: It`s a little of both. There`s combinations. But there`s a road that cuts through from the northwest to the southeast. It cuts right through there. I don`t have a map with me, so it`s difficult to explain. But there is an area right there.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified pathologist joining us out of Denver, Colorado -- Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. If the remains are found at this point, you are now familiar with the weather and the terrain conditions, what would you expect to find if the remains were discovered?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the remains are found above ground, small animals will likely have scattered the bones. It`s been hot, it`s been humid, there`s been insect activity. A lot of the soft tissue will have been removed.
However, if the body was underground or perhaps even under water, a lot of that disruption may not have occurred and there may still be forensic evidence present.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, do you believe, if remains are found at this time, we will be able to determine cause of death?
ARNALL: If they`re underground? It`s entirely possible. If there are broken bones, and they find those bones, yes, they`ll be able to diagnose broken bones and make a diagnosis on the cause of death.
GRACE: But a broken bone a murder does not make. If there were -- there was only soft tissue damaged such as by smothering or strangulation, I don`t believe you`re going to be able to determine that if the remains are found now.
ARNALL: If the person was smothered with a plastic bag, the plastic bag may still be around the skull. If the person was strangled, the hyoid bone may be broken. And they may be able to make that diagnosis.
I agree with you, I agree with you that decomposition has a significant possibility of obscuring evidence. However, if they find ligatures or plastic bag over the head or duct tape around the mouth or a gag around the mouth.
GRACE: Right.
ARNALL: Then they will use that nonhuman evidence to assist them in making the diagnosis.
GRACE: And very quickly, Liz, please go back to Dr. Michael Arnall. Could you show us the hyoid bone, please?
ARNALL: The hyoid bone is right above your Adam`s apple in the neck, and when a person is strangled, when pressure is placed around the voice box, you can break that little horseshoe shaped bone that`s right above the voice box...
GRACE: Right.
ARNALL: . right above your Adam`s apple.
GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- Mike, weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, I think the grand jury is going to be the most important thing right now. You`ve got 82 people on this list, 35 of them are law enforcement.
If they`re going to take a number of the law enforcement, they`re going to testify, evidence technicians and also, another key person on putting together this time line -- Leonard is talking about the towers -- and that`s going to be the custodian of records for AT&T, her cell phone carrier.
They`re going to be able to come on and talk about the time line, where she was on a certain date at a certain place, and that`s going to play a key role in putting -- in putting this whole thing together.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, absolutely correct. Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.
Homicide charges set to come down next week against tot mom Casey Anthony. And this case makes me appreciate my blessings even more.
At your request, photos of the twins. John David in his big-boy pajamas for the first time. I had to get Lucy new ones, as well.
Oh, we`re taking them on a sleigh ride across the den floor in a laundry basket.
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(NEWSBREAK)
GRANDMOTHER: I have a 22-year-old person that has grand theft, including in my auto, with me.
OPERATOR: So the 22-year-old person stole something?
GRANDMOTHER: Yes.
OPERATOR: Is this a relative?
GRANDMOTHER: Yes.
OPERATOR: Where did they steal it from?
GRANDMOTHER: My car and also money.
OPERATOR: OK. Is this your son?
GRANDMOTHER: Daughter.
OPERATOR: OK. So your daughter stole money from your car?
GRANDMOTHER: No. My car was stolen, we`ve retrieved it today, we found out where it was at. We retrieved it. I got that, and I`ve got affidavits to my banking account. I want to bring her in.
OPERATOR: OK.
GRANDMOTHER: I want to press charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news tonight. According to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, she is breaking the story that prosecutors plan to take this case to a grand jury next week, seeking homicide charges.
Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Jessica, I know we don`t know right now specifically what charge prosecutors will seek. What is your take?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG REPORTER, BROKE STORY THAT STATE PLANS TO SEEK HOMICIDE CHARGES: You know, Nancy, that`s a good question. I`m a little surprised that they brought this case to a grand jury so soon. So I don`t know if I`d be the right person to ask, because I`ve been hearing al along -- I pretty much thought no body, no case here.
So I`ve been operating under the assumption that they would wait quite some time before they brought some kind of a homicide case to a grand jury.
GRACE: So bottom line, we don`t know what the charge is going to be?
D`ONOFRIO: I don`t know, Nancy. I wish I did. And I`m trying to find out.
GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. A homicide case without a body is not uncommon. The prosecutors typically do not give a gold star to murderers that manage to hide or disassemble the body.
BROOKS: Oh absolutely not, Nancy. You know, everybody is saying, well, if she is charged now with either homicide or manslaughter, will she get a deal? She was offered a deal a long time ago, if you recall, Nancy, that limited immunity deal.
So I say if she`s indicted and they get -- there`s a grand jury (INAUDIBLE), they arrest her for either homicide or manslaughter, there is not going to be any deal because one has already been on the table and that`s it.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, out of Atlanta, John Burris, attorney out of San Francisco.
John Burris, what are the choices? What are the choices, in a nutshell -- don`t go pontificating on me -- that would be given to a grand jury as far as charges go?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they have to -- murder, and they don`t have to define whether it`s first or second and on manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.
My sense is, right now, given everything are that they will go with murder. They can always go down from there, but I think they have as much evidence on murder as they have for manslaughter, so you go for the most you can get. That`s assuming you can get it.
GRACE: Well.
BURRIS: Now I`m not convinced they can get it.
GRACE: . I`ve got one thing I want to add. I think they can easily get an indictment.
Renee, I think.
BURRIS: Well, you (INAUDIBLE).
GRACE: What? What, Burris?
BURRIS: When the grand jury goes forward, they generally get an indictment.
GRACE: Yes.
BURRIS: . when the prosecutor makes a request. That generally happens. It doesn`t happen -- they don`t reject it very often.
GRACE: To.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can I just jump in and say one thing. It might not be an indictment that they`re seeking right now, because don`t forget, you can use the grand jury as an investigative tool.
82 witnesses, 35 of them are law enforcement. Those other witnesses, including Casey`s parents, are going to be made to testify, and it will be interesting to get their stories locked down, Nancy.
GRACE: To Renee, I was about to ask you. I agree with Burris, except I would add in one other charge. Since nobody asked me, I think they should add in a request for a felony murder charge. What that would mean.
ROCKWELL: Based on the chloroform?
GRACE: Yes. What that would mean is, if a jury chose to believe that mom Casey Anthony was assaulting the child, such as chloroforming her, or shaking her, and a death occurred, that would be treated as a murder under the felony murder statute. A death that occurs in the commission of a felony, Renee, yes or no?
ROCKWELL: That`s right, I agree with you.
GRACE: You think that they will?
ROCKWELL: I think that they`ll throw it up.
BURRIS: I think you need a body for that, though. I think you need a body for that, because you`re talking about.
ROCKWELL: Well, you have to have a theory for it.
GRACE: You do. You got to have.
BURRIS: I know. You got to have a body. I think you`ve got to have a theory for the aggravated assault, you`re right, Renee.
Burris, they have to have a theory on the ag assault. They have to have a theory, such as aggravated assault by smothering, aggravated assault by -- chloroform.
BURRIS: And they got to have some evidence for that.
GRACE: And they don`t necessarily have that.
BURRIS: They need the body for that. I think they need a body.
GRACE: Yes. Yes.
BURRIS: I think we got to have a body for that.
GRACE: Agree. Agree. I agree with the two of you. Legally.
To Corie in North Carolina, hi, Corie.
CORIE, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CORIE: I was wondering, when it shows her buying the beer at Target, was she using Amy`s i.d., because she clearly shows an ID and then write the check.
GRACE: Well, you`re never going to believe this, Corie.
To Mark Williams, explain how she wrote some of the checks.
WILLIAMS: Well, her first check that she wrote on July 8th, she bought some things at Target, and she signed her name to Amy Huizinga`s check.
GRACE: Her own name.
WILLIAMS: You bet. And the clerk never even checked, because we could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes. What it was she used her identification, Casey Anthony signed her name, Casey Anthony to Huizinga`s check.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRACE: And they checked the I.D. to signature, but not to the top of the check.
Out to Anne in New York, hi, Anne.
ANNE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I just want to applaud you for all of your efforts. I enjoy your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
ANNE: I have two questions, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes.
ANNE: It`s so upsetting. Number one, I understand the biological father was married. Did anyone ever check out with the -- the wife?
GRACE: OK. What`s the second question?
ANNE: The other one is, again, I applaud for all of the efforts, but I wanted to know, with everything exposed, nationally, how is Casey Anthony going to get a fair trial?
GRACE: Well, you do recall the O.J. Simpson double murder trial, right, Anne? Do I still have Anne, Elizabeth?
Anne, do you recall the O.J. Simpson murder trial?
ANNE: Yes, I do.
GRACE: That was a not guilty and I would challenge you and your theory that this case has received about as much or a little less attention than O.J. Simpson got and he got a not guilty. So believe me.
ANNE: Yes, I do.
GRACE: . you can get an impartial jury. But as to the bio dad question, what about it, Mark Williams?
WILLIAMS: Well, as far as we know, that was the first time I`ve heard that he may have been married. But the Florida Highway Patrol says he was killed in a traffic accident here in the Orlando area more than a year ago.
So that`s where that -- that issue was ended and the minute they brought up they -- one television station went to the parents and they denied that their son every impregnated Casey Anthony.
GRACE: Back to Jessica D`Onofrio, do you believe that anyone else in the Anthony family other than the mom and dad will testify before the grand jury?
D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely. And going back to, you know, listening to everybody talk earlier is that, I can assure you that no one should underestimate the investigation here. There`s a lot more we have not heard in -- that`s been in the public yet. Trust me.
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GRACE: Out to the lines, Paul in Arkansas, hi Paul.
PAUL, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
PAUL: If the grand jury indicts her and charge her with manslaughter, if he finds her guilty, can they go back and recharge her for murder or.
GRACE: No.
PAUL: Or would that be double jeopardy?
GRACE: That would be double jeopardy -- they`ll be charges stemming out of the same incident. Good question. That`s why I think they should go -- try to go with murder one and if the jury wants to respond, the petite jury of 12, wants to come back with a lesser, at least they have the opportunity to go with murder one.
Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, what do you make? What do you make of the grand jury, allegedly, reportedly, hearing charges on homicide on Tuesday? Think it will stick?
PADILLA: Yes. And let me tell you why they brought it to the grand jury on the last day, because that gives them two bites of the apple. In other words, if this jury for some reason or others, were to reject the charges and not indict her, they got a new one coming right around the corner.
And that`s why sometimes the prosecutor will bring one in at the end of the jury`s term, and -- knowing that if they get rejected, they got a new one right around the corner.
GRACE: And Leonard.
PADILLA: But she`s going to get indicted.
GRACE: . what do you make of Equusearch coming back to search for little Caylee?
PADILLA: They`ve complete the ping list. They`ve got the longitude, the latitude point of references where she made her phone calls.
GRACE: They didn`t have that before?
PADILLA: It`s a very lengthy, lengthy process and I don`t believe law enforcement wanted to turn it loose before they went to the grand jury. Equusearch is going out there to see what the conditions on the ground in that area are.
And I could tell you this, that she`s got about five days in which to cancel that grand jury indictment and that is by giving up where the body is, because if she doesn`t give it up, that grand jury is going to go through and then there`s no retreat from that.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steven Christofferson, 20, Cutaway, Wisconsin, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Loved football wrestling, running tracks.
Leaves behind grieving parents who serve the Air Force and best friends, his younger brothers, Dylan and Dakota.
Steven Christofferson, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. As much as the world pauses tonight for (INAUDIBLE), we wish you the blessings on this special evening.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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