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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Wins One in Court
Aired October 10, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 16 long weeks.
Tonight, bombshell. The latest shocker, Casey`s defense team racks up big victories in court, and I mean big victories, over the furious objections of prosecutors. In the last hours, a judge grants of string of motions on behalf of Casey Anthony`s defense. But mom Casey is a no-show. That`s right, she does not show up in court. As of tonight, the state has 10 days to hand over forensic evidence, including hair, chloroform and air samples all connected to Casey Anthony`s car trunk. The defense also gets access to mom Casey`s car, the computer searches, tips on Caylee, and even polygraphs.
The judge does say no to cadaver dog evidence, but three -- count them, three -- crucial motions remain on the table, including a very controversial request. Will the judge actually allow mom Casey to go on secret searches for her little girl? Meantime, we await a possible secret grand jury indictment of murder or manslaughter against Casey Anthony in just days. But tonight, the biggest question remains, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A judge has granted several motions requested by Casey Anthony`s attorney. Her defense was granted access to forensic tests, DNA samples and hair strands within 10 days. But a special request to let Anthony travel in secrecy to search for her missing daughter has been tabled until at least Monday. In another major development in this case, her father, George, will testify against her during a grand jury hearing next week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reportedly, he`s going to talk about the confrontation he had with Casey when she didn`t want him to go inside her trunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Casey, I`ve got an extra set of keys, I`ll go in the truck and get it. So her and I got in a little verbal...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the...
GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. So as I`m getting ready to go out through our inner garage door and open up the big garage door, she just blows right past me. Dad, I`ll get your -- thing. She said something very crude to me that I don`t appreciate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Right.
GEORGE ANTHONY: So as I`m walking out of the garage with her, I`m walking at a pretty decent pace and she`s almost running out to her car. She said, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car, unbolting that thing -- because I bolt stuff down. I crank it down. And she says, Dad, I`ll get it. As I`m walking, I just get past where the passenger rear taillight is for her car, she throws it open and turns and says, Here`s your f-ing cans.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez, Casey`s attorney, asking for more freedom for Casey so she can go out and look for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants her home confinement to be modified so that she can look at these -- what he calls key areas of interest in Caylee`s disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the baby-sitter that lives in this apartment, OK, that`s been vacant...
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I dropped her off at that apartment, at those stairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006, with you trying to explain to us, you know, you got an office and all that stuff.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they`re charging her and alleging that she lied and took them to this location, I should be able -- it`s our position that we should be able to take her there and as, OK, where exactly did you point? Where exactly did you take them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he wants to do is to conduct this in secret. And we are opposed to that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your client is, as you stated, presumed innocent. Nobody would doubt that. I guess a skeptic sitting up here might think that if, in fact, your client had done this, then she might have access to a point of interest nobody else knows about and might be able to do something with potential evidence or something like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will have no part in destruction of evidence. I will not partake in that and I will not allow my client to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Huge developments inside and outside court today. For the very latest on today`s courtroom bombshells, let`s go straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter for CNN affiliate WKMG. Jessica, what is the very latest?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Jane, the judge considered 11 motions today. He tabled three of them to consider them. We might hear something probably, possibly on Monday.
Now, these were really big motions for the defense. They want to preserve forensic evidence. They don`t want the state to test it anymore so that it gets degraded. They want to be able to test it themselves.
Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to seal Casey`s home confinement schedule. Jose Baez is saying that there`s a security risk there, and he doesn`t want protesters or media following her and that this could be a matter of her safety.
Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to travel to key points of interest. Casey wants to be able to go to key points of interest in the case, show her defense attorney where she may have pointed to to detectives, to help in her own defense here.
But it was a really big day for Casey Anthony`s defense team today because the judge granted eight different big motions, as well. Now Jose Baez and his defense team will be able to test forensic evidence. They`ll have access to the state`s results that they`ve gotten back from air samples from the University of Tennessee body farm. They`ll also get flight manifests from the time when a woman said she saw Caylee at OIA, at Orlando International Airport, and that there was a possible Caylee sighting, and that she is actually alive.
Also, he`ll get to inspect digital evidence, anything on a hard drive that was confiscated from the Anthony home. He`ll also get access to tips, tips that have come into the Orange County sheriff`s office pointing to the idea that Caylee may be alive somewhere. So he`s also -- and this is a big thing, too. He`s also going to be able to review polygraph tests that detectives have done thus far. So he`s going to have a lot of access to a lot of new information to help defend Casey Anthony.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica D`Onofrio, that is such a shocker -- Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all for the defense. And who`s not there to take it all in, the one person who is at the center of this case, Casey Anthony. She was a no-show in court.
Let`s go straight out to Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer, who was in court today. Describe the mood. I understand it was a packed courtroom. There was a lot of tension, a lot of expectation to see Casey Anthony walk in, and then voila, even though she got approval, she didn`t show up. Why?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the defense is saying that Casey Anthony actually did not need to be in court today. And actually, I spoke to a spokesperson for the Baez lawfirm who said that they never intended for Casey to attend today`s hearing. Jose Baez gave some remarks afterwards, and he said that Casey has full faith in him, as well as the defense team, and that there was no reason for her to be there, but she was elated with the outcome of what happened today in court (INAUDIBLE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Natisha, they`re saying that after the fact, but she went and asked her case supervisor, Can I have permission to go to court? So why would she ask for permission and then they turn around and say, Well, no, she didn`t have to be there and she didn`t really plan on being there?
LANCE: Well, that`s a big mystery, Jane, that no one seems to be answering at this point. But one of the things that I think we could probably safely assume is that there`s a security risk, which Jose Baez raised today with one of his motions, that they are afraid for Casey`s safety and afraid that somebody could possibly do something to her because there have been protesters. Some of those protesters have become violent in the past, and that could have been a pretty bad spectacle, if there were some of those protesters out at the courthouse today.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, originally helped her spring from jail and has become skeptical since, what do you make of it? You`ve been analyzing Casey now. Why would she ask her supervisor to go and have permission to go to court, and this is a huge day, she won a string of victories in court, but then she says, I`m not going?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, let me see if I can put this in perspective. What the eight victories that she got are called Pyrrhic victories, OK? What she did was get a 10-day limit, which -- when the grand jury comes in with the indictment, and I`m sure they will on Tuesday or Wednesday, it`s still within the 10 days that they had to release that information under discovery rules, anyhow.
As far as the safety issue, I can tell you this. I raised that the day after the results from Tennessee came in and the DNA from the FBI lab came in. I raised that as a strong issue with Jose Baez. And I says, We have a safety issue with your client. We have to do something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Did you buy the safety issue? Yes or no. That she (INAUDIBLE)
PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. It`s been a safety issue all along. And he didn`t take it serious then, and I don`t think...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Leonard, she is asking for permission to go and search for her daughter, quote, unquote. That`s one of the rulings that the judge did not finalize today. He didn`t say yes or no. But they filed a motion. If she`s so scared about her safety, why is it that she`s seeking now a motion after all this time, after she partied and went shopping during a time when she could have been searching for her daughter -- now they`re petitioning the court, Let`s go and let her search for her daughter.
PADILLA: That is typical Casey/Jose Baez stuff that has -- it`s meaningless. The minute she gets rearrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow. And the judge tabled that.
The judge was very astute in the way he granted certain motions and the way he tabled certain motions. The ones that he granted -- discovery is going to be available next Thursday or Friday anyhow, still within the 10 days. He was very astute in what he did.
But that is typical Casey, typical Jose Baez. But the thing about it is, there is a safety issue, and I wouldn`t even want her out there searching, if I was in charge of her. That is just -- I don`t know what that`s about.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talk about the safety issue, you`re talking about threats? Is that what you`re saying?
PADILLA: Absolutely. Yes, you`ve got massive amounts of people in Florida that would harm her, if they could get a chance. You`ve got the protesters out in front of the house that rally every now and then. That`s the kind of stuff you don`t want her exposed to, whether it`s in secret or in private. I mean, any way, shape or form, you don`t want her out there. I don`t know what they`re doing that for.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. She doesn`t show up in court, and now we`re hearing it could be safety reasons. But in court today, her lawyer says, I want you, Judge, to let her leave her home confinement so she can search for her child, even though she didn`t search for her child, according to reports that we`ve received, during the crucial days and weeks when she originally went missing. What do you make of it?
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Listen, I don`t buy the safety issue. It sounds like, for goodness sakes, you`ve got to declare martial law in the state of Florida to protect this person. I deal with cases every day, high-profile cases, and this is one of the rarest things I`ve ever heard, where a defense attorney is bringing up a safety issue.
The fact of the matter is that this individual appears to have manipulated the process and did everything she could to get off.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: DNA by itself is -- when they test it, they destroy it, OK? That`s the point of our motion. What we`re asking is this. If there is DNA that they don`t have enough to give to the defense, that they should allow us the opportunity to have our experts present while they test it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we can actually take a look at these leads and follow up on them, follow up on the ones that we know law enforcement has not followed up on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Yes, yes, and yes again. That`s what the judge said repeatedly today to Casey Anthony`s lawyers, granting them most of what they asked for in terms of access to crucial evidence. Prosecutors objected furiously to no avail. That as the clock ticks down to a reported secret grand jury hearing on Tuesday that could result in murder or manslaughter charges being handed down against the missing tot`s mother. Is she prepared for the worst? That`s what her lawyer says he is trying to prepare her for.
Now, somebody who did show up in court today, our dear friend, Koby (ph), also known as Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who is a forensic science out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby, hi.
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY`S DEFENSE TEAM: Hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You actually testified over the phone. Tell us the significance of all the evidence the judge now says has to go to the defense. What -- what does it do for the defense?
KOBILINSKY: Well, we all know -- I`ve said all along this is a very challenging case for the defense. Obviously, whenever you have scientific analysis of physical evidence, it`s going to dramatically impact on jurors. So it`s important to me that whatever testing is done, whatever scientific testing of evidence is done really needs to be reliable and accurate.
And you know, one way to do that is to have redundancy in the testing. That is, to have independent testing by the defense. And this motion that I testified about involved the preservation of any forensic evidence. We`re talking about any kind of DNA evidence. The hair, for example, is one. And we`re concerned about quality and quantity.
And you know, I think the quality is less of an issue because it`s clear that, you know, crime labs have learned how to preserve evidence and not let it degrade. But if there is limited quantity, as there is in this case, we want to make sure that there`s a level playing field, that the results are accurate, and that the defense at least has a shot at doing an independent test.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Koby, why do I sense a "garbage in, garbage out" defense? It seems like that`s what always happens and is going to happen again. And we`ll have to see if I`m psychic or not.
Let`s bring in the lawyers, Joey Jackson and Midwin Charles, two noted defense attorneys. I want to ask you guys -- let`s start with Midwin. Was the judge right? I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes to access to forensic tests on air, hair and chloroform for the defense, yes to access to Casey`s vehicle, the computer, the cell phone, the information about somebody who thought they saw Caylee getting on a plane -- that turned out not to be true -- yes to polygraph, yes to any favorable information about Casey.
I mean, did they just hand over the case to the defense, Midwin?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. Look here, defense attorneys are entitled to this kind of information. It`s discovery. And they` entitled to exculpatory evidence, which is evidence that says -- points to the fact that perhaps someone else did it, or this person who is being charged with the crime is not the person who did it.
And it doesn`t mean that he`s handing the case over to the defense. What he`s doing is just insuring that they get a fair shake at the same evidence that the prosecutors have. Remember, this judge does not want to be reversed later on down the line, either.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey Jackson, you know, the prosecution was saying, Hey, she is not currently charged with murder or manslaughter. We do not have an obligation to give her all this information that goes way beyond what she`s charged with now, which is child neglect and fraud charges, and hand over essentially what could be a murder case down the road.
JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I understand that. But Midwin is absolutely right on point here. The reality is, Jane, is that an indictment is imminent. And what you have to do is you have to really, if you`re the judge, determine whether or not it makes sense to turn this information over now. The defense is entitled to examine the evidence, evaluate the evidence, and having done so, to put up the best defense they possibly can.
Lastly, Jane, on the issue of the forensic examination, there`s one of two ways the defense can attack this. One way, which I don`t think will work in this case, is to simply get up there and to try to destroy all the testing that their expert did. What the defense is doing in this case is asking for an independent examination, which I think will help greatly in the defense of Caylee. (SIC)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to find out how the defense could afford all this -- I mean, experts and consultants...
JACKSON: Pro bono!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and all sorts of tests. I don`t know. It adds up. It adds up very quickly.
CHARLES: It does. It does add up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And perhaps we`ll find out how they`re bankrolling all this.
The phone lines lighting up like a Christmas tree. Eileen in New Jersey, your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi. It`s just one question. I`m wondering, can you overdose on chloroform?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Koby, Lawrence Kobilinsky, the forensic scientist. Can you overdose on chloroform?
KOBILINSKY: Without a doubt. The chloroform at levels of about 10,000 parts per million is highly toxic. And in fact, the -- you know, it was normally used for anesthesia, but that`s got to be very carefully administered. And if you overdo it, it is fatal. And there`s no doubt about that. It`s a toxic chemical, and that`s why the public should not have access to it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face, and I did that to myself. But the worst is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday she will never be able to forgive me. And I even told her I`m never going to be able to forgive myself. Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this, every single day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: Not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles, literally, because that`s all I can do at this point.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Equusearch back in Orlando, desperately looking for little Caylee Anthony now that the storms there have subsided. We`re going to go straight out to Tim Miller, head of Equusearch. How many people do you have there, Tim? Where are they? What are they doing tonight?
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, you know, Jane, it`s, you know, good to be back. But you know, it`s been kind of disappointing. It looks like we brought the rain back with us. It`s rained the last few days. Conditions aren`t where we need them to be just yet. But I haven`t really been out there to look. Today I`ve been in meetings the entire day, you know, a lot longer than I anticipated...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in and ask you this question about the Orlando airport area. I remember flying in there years ago, and it struck me how wooded that area is. It`s like you`re driving out of the airport, miles and miles of just woods. It`s going to impossible, I would think, to search through that. Why not get cadaver dogs and just let them loose and see what they come up with?
MILLER: Well, don`t we wish it was that easy. None of us would be out here. You know, we`ve actually located human remains several times after cadaver dogs have cleared it, so we don`t use just any one resource. I think that`s why our success is where it is. We bring in every resource we can and re-search and re-search and re-search until we know an area is cleared. And I mean, there`s a lot of woods, but let`s face it, you know, nobody is going to carry anything out a quarter mile or half mile into a wooded area where it`s very, very hard to walk. You know, normally...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a good point. In other words -- yes?
MILLER: It`s -- it`s an area that somebody can drive out to, not be seen, possibly spend some time out there and go ahead and do a dump. And we`ve got to remember this is a very, very small child in a very, very big area. And again, I think there`s a lot of strength in numbers. And there`s a lot of resources we have. There`s a lot of people just sitting on the edge of their chair, waiting to get going back on the search.
But tomorrow, it`s not going to start. We`ve got to be a little bit better organized than we are tomorrow, so we`re not going to waste these resources. But this search is going to go on. And I still support the Anthonys and am hoping that Caylee is alive out there and -- but we`re going to do everything we can do in case she`s not to see if we can get her located.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: 9-1-1, what`s your emergency?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. Oh, my god, my daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What filled up the garage?
G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was -- it hits you like a wave. I mean it was -- it was -- whatever it was it was very potent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in the trunk of the car.
C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza, for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.
I know none of this is true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, here`s.
C. ANTHONY: I mean I know that now it`s not true but at the time I believed it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.
G. ANTHONY: The day that she was born, after they got done cleaning my granddaughter off and stuff like that, who they handed her to was my wife, and my daughter is always.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hard to (INAUDIBLE)
G. ANTHONY: Yes. There`s been some toughness right there.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: When I asked her, why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, well, maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony tonight as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing reportedly set for next Tuesday.
Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?
Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.
He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee, although we have to stress, she is not charged with that now. Casey`s defense attorneys in court today, fighting for evidence, and winning over vocal observations of prosecutors who don`t want to show their hand.
Let`s go out to Jessica D`Onofrio who`s been on top of the story from the very start, reporter for CNN affiliate with WKMG.
Tell us about this grand jury on Tuesday that`s reportedly going to convene. I understand it`s the last day of this grand jury. So how -- in the heck are they going to hear all of this evidence when we`re hearing witness after witness and all this evidence, the forensic evidence, the behavioral evidence, how are they going to cram that into one day and hope to come up with an indictment?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: That`s a very good question, Jane. It`s going to be -- there may be a lot of witnesses that this grand jury has to hear testimony from.
But, you know, going back to Jose Baez`s request today to have Casey Anthony be able to visit these key points of interest in the case here, her days may be numbered, because if that grand jury actually decides that she should be charged with manslaughter or murder, she`s going to go straight back to jail.
And in that case, there really isn`t a point there, and she won`t be able to travel to any of these key points of interest.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shannon Fox, family therapist and a MomLogic.com contributor, his -- the attorney for Casey Anthony, Jose Baez, reportedly said he`s trying to prepare her for the worst.
Well, you heard -- you heard it right there. Tuesday, it could be very bad news for Casey. How do you prepare somebody for that?
SHANNON FOX, FAMILY THERAPIST, MOMLOGIC.COM CONTRIBUTOR: That`s a great question. Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all. She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter, and so now when faced with potential homicide charges, she still seems pretty -- she still seemed pretty straight-faced.
So it`s tough to break through that shell, and even prepare somebody for something that they don`t seem to be emotionally invested in at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`ve got so many phone calls coming in.
Victor from Idaho, your question, sir.
VICTOR, IDAHO RESIDENT: My question is, if this goes to trial, would Casey -- could the defense bring up an insanity plea on this?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s a very interesting question.
Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson. You know, so many experts have said we don`t have the whole story. The prosecution is holding back on key evidence.
Do you think -- given everything you hear now and the possibility of x very incriminating being out there that -- Midwin, I`ll start with you -- they should go for an insanity defense?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that`s going to be real difficult here, Jane. When you have an insanity defense, you basically first have to admit that you did it, right? I mean, that hasn`t happened here yet. We don`t even know exactly what happened.
Because in an insanity defense, the person said, you know what, I did do it, but when I did it, I was insane. In other words, I didn`t know the difference between right or wrong. So I really don`t know if that will happen here.
But I will tell you this. She has not been acting like the normal mother. There has been no press conferences, there has been no crocodile tears. So there is clearly possibly a psychological issue here. And I`m sure her defense attorney is going to bring that out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Joey Jackson, defense attorney, one investigator said in all his years, he has never come up with a person that he`s had to deal with who is as tough as this individual in terms of maintaining a poker face.
Now that can work for her and it can also work against her if, hypothetically, she were to go to trial on more serious charges.
JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could, Jane, but we have to understand is that everyone processes information differently and handles information differently. And that`s why I believe -- getting back to what we were talking about earlier -- that not having her in the courtroom was brilliant by Mr. Baez.
Because now you focus the judge on the issues and the motion, and not on, oh, was she -- you know was she having a straight face, was she grinning, was she smiling, was she laughing, did she look confused, did she look disinterested.
And that`s why that was important. But with regard to the original issue of insanity, we`re nowhere near establishing or even talking about an insanity defense or -- you know, a plea at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you make a very good point, because had she shown up in court you know we`d be talking about what was she wearing.
JACKSON: Exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: . and was she acting strange.
JACKSON: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she look at somebody cross-eyed? Did she show up in pajamas?
JACKSON: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Well, that`s Michael Jackson. That`s another story, entirely.
All right, listen, Felicia, Alabama, I understand you have a question, ma`am.
FELICIA, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Yes, ma`am. Why is the judge not allowing the evidence from the cadaver dogs, considering they found a scent in Casey`s trunk?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. The judge said no to basically cross-examining the cadaver dogs. You cannot cross-examine dogs.
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, N.J. POLICE DEPT., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes, that`s correct. What he`s saying, actually, is not to cross examine the police officers who used those dogs.
Now, why he did that, I don`t know. But I can tell you this. That the police need not fear any emotions by the defense attorney if they did a good job and I believe the police in this case did a very meticulous good job and we`re going to see an indictment for possibly murder next week.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know I want to go back to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter, CNN affiliate WKMG. You`ve been following this possible grand jury that we expect to begin -- well, actually it`s the last day of the grand jury, but to begin to hear Casey Anthony`s case on Tuesday.
We`re hearing that her father, her mother and her brother might testify. We`re hearing about all these witnesses. Do you really think that they`re going to call the family to the stand? Because couldn`t that put them in a bad squeeze if they change their testimony from what they said originally that`s on tape to investigators when they were first interviewed?
D`ONOFRIO: Well, quite possibly, Jane. I mean -- I do I believe that they are going to call George Anthony to come and testify in front of that grand jury. I do believe they`ll call Cindy and I do believe that they`ll call Lee.
I mean these are the people who are closest to her, these are the people who knew about her movements, who knew what she said in the past, and I am sure that the prosecution is going to want to them to talk about that in front of this grand jury.
So I am sure that they are to be called -- George, absolutely for sure. I heard he was told to clear his schedule for Tuesday so that he could be there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson, what if the dad who`s clearly been so upset, understandably, with everything that`s gone on in his life, I mean, basically, this has wrecked his life, gets up there and says, you know, I don`t want to testify? What happens then, Midwin?
CHARLES: You know, very difficult. I mean, it`s going to be one of those things where he can possibly be held in contempt of court. They could go in and introduce his prior testimony to the police.
And, you know, say, hey, you said this back then. What do you mean you`re not willing to testify here? They`re open to variables here. I mean, at the end of the day, Jane, this is a family that just has been ripped apart by what has happened here. It`s really unfortunate.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it is. You did see video right there of George throwing things because he`s just fed up. And who can judge? I mean, if we were in their shoes, how would we act? We don`t know.
But Joey, do you expect that he will testify cooperatively?
JACKSON: Well, you know, I don`t know how cooperatively it will be. But judging from all of the things that have occurred and the statements he`s made with respect to the trunk and all of the information that he`s provided, it would suggest that he would go in there and tell the grand jury his story.
The grand jury will indict. As Sol Wachtler has said, chief -- former chief judge of New York, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: It did seem like, it -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.
C. ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from an apartment complex and they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all, that day.
Do you think that we`re stupid or we`re not going to.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I know you`re not stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . do all this stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Caylee may not be in very good shape. Do you understand what I`m saying? She may not be the way we -- the way your family last remembers her. We need to find out from you where Caylee is.
This -- right now is just -- this has gone so far downhill and this has become such a mess that we need to end it. It`s very simple, we just need to end it.
CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?
Meantime, Casey Anthony`s lawyers rack up a string of very impressive wins in court. Just hours ago, as prosecutors fume, and all the while, the search for Caylee is kicking into high gear, that search is headed by Tim Miller, the head of Equusearch.
Tim, I understand you had a meeting today involving the Anthony family. Tell us about it.
TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: You know, Mark is just an incredible man, an incredible attorney, I would only hope that the Anthonys would take advantage of what he has got to offer. He certainly -- our meeting lasted for three hours.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you discuss, though?
MILLER: We discussed the possibility of what`s going to happen in the future. We discussed where -- you know, how our hearts are broken for the Anthony family. I mean they`re going through something they never chose to go through.
Mark`s actually gotten with the Never Give up Hope Foundation to help us fund a continued search. And, you know what, Mark is just an incredible man and has a lot of compassion for this family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I understand that. But was there any news -- was there any news that came out of it?
MILLER: The news that came out of it was actually supposed to be meeting with the Anthony family and discuss future searches. You know, let them know that we`re not the enemy, we`re by their side.
And you know, I understand there`s a lot of emotions right now, and we hope maybe that meeting is going to happen tomorrow, so we can meet with George and Cindy and let them know what it looks like the future is going to bring to them.
And unfortunately, it doesn`t look good. But, again, this is not something that they chose, and my god, who would want to be in their shoes? And I think they got a lot more support than they understand.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent. We have nothing but compassion for the extended family. I mean, this is something that has to be a nightmare beyond comprehension.
Toni from Georgia, you have a question.
TONI, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Yes. Casey hasn`t worked in almost two years since she worked at Universal. Well, I was wondering if anyone knew where she had been spending her time and if that could give them any clues where to look.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, what can you tell us about what she was actually doing when she told her mother over and over again and others, hey, I`m going off to work at Universal, which was totally bogus?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it seems that she was either spending time at her boyfriend`s apartment, at Tony Lazzaro`s apartment. Otherwise, she was off during the day, because Tony Lazzaro has actually said that during the day when he was in class, he didn`t know where Casey was.
He was under the impression that she was at work. So it remains to be seen exactly what she was doing during the day time hours. But in the evening she tended to be with her friends.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who has said in the past that there was always a grain of truth in Casey Anthoy`s lies.
She lied about working at Universal. She would go off in the morning and kind of disappear. And there`s really no clear-cut explanation of exactly what she was doing.
Is it possible that she had some kind of double life? And is that something that you think investigators are digging into or not?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you know, earlier the gentleman with the police department from New Jersey said that the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has done a great job. They have.
There are some things that are going to come out at the grand jury that is just going to overwhelm people that have had any doubts. The child is dead. Orange County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI are very aware of this. They`ve got the proof. And at the grand.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, what proof? What proof? I mean, if we had the proof, we wouldn`t be here right now.
PADILLA: Oh, yes, oh, yes, because she is still presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I understand that.
PADILLA: . and with all certainty.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we wouldn`t be having this conversation.
PADILLA: Well, we`re having this conversation simply because somebody wishes to question the FBI`s lab results, the deed band on the hair and the decomposition of the -- of a human being in the trunk of the car.
Now maybe I`m old-fashioned, but I believe in those things, and so far, nobody has come up that is reputable and said, well, gee, here is the answer. Cindy said somebody had access to the trunk. Casey says, well, you know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
PADILLA: . Jesse might have put a body in there, you know?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me bring in Lawrence Kobilinsky, though, forensic scientist and he is the expert. Give us a thumbnail as we -- very quickly -- of all of the evidence of what it points to in terms of a deceased body.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, the issue of the hair first. There is -- it is known, it`s been published, that hair will develop a banding pattern after a person dies.
The banding pattern represents hair sacks, that to the naked eye, visibly, it looks like a banding pattern. There are maybe.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they found that in the hair?
KOBILINSKY: They -- well, this is what we`re hearing. We haven`t seen any official reports. But if that is true, then that is one indicator that we`re talking about somebody who -- who is deceased. There may be other explanations. I just don`t know enough about the findings.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And then -- and I have to leave it there, Kobe. But, of course, you have the air samples that showed signs of decomposition. You have the chloroform, you have the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk. A lot of evidence. We`ll see where it leads.
But first, CNN HEROES.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.
CINDY LAUPER, SINGER: Hate crime sends terror through a community.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shepard was left for dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never been attacked like this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 22 swastikas were found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a random act of ignorance and violence.
LAUPER: You can die just because of who you are.
I`m Cindy Lauper. And my hero is Cathy Nelson because she fights for the rights of all people. Straight and gay.
CATHY NELSON, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Lesbian and gay, bisexual and transgender equality is really the civil rights issue of this generation. I`m a lesbian and I see the issues very personally.
In 1989, I went to work for the human rights campaign.
This looks great, I really it.
Events are a vital part of what we do. It`s raising the visibility of the issues that we`re working on.
Cindy`s 2007 True Colors Tour was an amazing opportunity to educate about the upcoming hate crimes bill in Congress.
LAUPER: She had this idea of taking a postcard and send it to your congressman.
NELSON: Becoming an activist starts with one simple step.
LAUPER: We have to erase hate. It`s a lose-lose situation. I hope you all listen. Let you know about things that are going on. Right now, we could change.
NELSON: So what drives me is fighting for fairness and equality.
LAUPER: Cathy has helped a lot of people and don`t take any (INAUDIBLE) for it. And that`s a hero.
ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/heroes.
CNN HEROES is sponsored by.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`ll be a hearing at Orange County court where her attorney Jose Baez will argue his client should be allowed out of house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: What do you mean she wants out of house arrest. She should be in jail, number one. If she was out on bond the first time, she didn`t lift one little pinky, not one finger, to help find Caylee. So why now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.
GRACE: It`s been long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turn double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that toddler (INAUDIBLE) may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today they released this video along with court documents in their check fraud case against Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve seen that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.
GRACE: Joining us tonight the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Equuseach back in Florida, set to resume search for little Caylee.
MILLER: The last thing (INAUDIBLE) 1186 volunteers out there, plus all the resources (INAUDIBLE).
PADILLA: If Casey doesn`t come with up with a body between now and then, there`s definitely going to be an indictment.
And shortly thereafter, Tim`s going to find the body.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Marine Corporal Jonathan Yale, 21, from Burkeville, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Lost his life saving fellow soldiers. Awarded the Purple Heart and Combat Action Ribbon.
He loved making people happy, skateboarding, paintball. He leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca and sister Tammy.
Jonathan Yale, an American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. We`re going to see you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock Eastern Time. In the meantime have a happy and a very safe evening.
END
