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Nancy Grace
Dress Like Caylee`s Found Near Airport
Aired October 13, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. A secret grand jury set to meet in about 12 hours. Prosecutors reportedly seeking homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. Only question, will that charge be manslaughter or murder? When and if the indictment is handed down, mom Casey`s arrest likely immediate. Grandfather George the only witness from the Anthony family, as grandmother Cindy lashing out, claiming a political conspiracy, claiming that mom Casey`s the real victim and claiming police stopped searching for Caylee.
Three crucial defense motions still on the table, including mom Casey`s demand to break house arrest to personally and privately search for little Caylee. And tonight, a bombshell discovery by Texas Equusearch, back on the ground in Orlando. Is there finally a break in the search? Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing toddler Caylee Marie Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony could be facing a murder charge in the next 24 hours, as prosecutors are set to make their case in front of a grand jury early tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: After about 7:00 o`clock, when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic. And I went to a neutral place. I didn`t really want to come home. I wasn`t sure what I`d say about not knowing where Caylee was, still hoping that I would get a call, or you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her. And I ended up going to my boyfriend, Anthony`s, house who lived in Sutton Place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, I did not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: All it seemed like from day one is that you were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...
CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is that she loves that child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way or even remotely supports that accusation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony, who is a prime suspect in the case, is currently only charged with child neglect, as well as theft and fraud for allegedly stealing checks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You nervous about tomorrow, Casey?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service. So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores, just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re...
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission...
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and hasn`t returned her.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains the prime suspect in her daughter`s disappearance and maintains the child was kidnapped by the baby- sitter, Zenaida Gonzalez. Prosecutors are expected to present evidence, along with witness testimony, asking jurors to indict the tot mom on more serious charges. One of the witnesses that will reportedly be called is Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, who police say was the last person to see the child alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, what`s the latest?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, we`re waiting on the grand jury hearing tomorrow. We`re certainly going to be out there at 8:30 in the morning bright and early. That`s when she could be charged with murder or manslaughter. I`ve been hearing people now talk about charging her with child abuse leading to death. So we`re going to get some kind of indication on what the charges will be tomorrow, if that grand jury hands down an indictment.
We know that George -- I know that George got subpoenaed. That`s Casey`s father, George Anthony, got subpoenaed last Friday. So he will be the only family member to testify against her tomorrow in front of that grand jury. We`re also going to hear from several other people. About a half a dozen people will testify in front of them. We`ll hear from an FBI expert, among others, because that FBI expert obviously will know a lot more about that hair and the DNA and the death band on that hair that was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.
GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB 1150. Mark, here`s the kicker. Isn`t it true that under Florida law, only cases that may result in capital punishment go to the grand jury?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: That`s it. That`s the Florida law right now as it stands, that if you are convicted or are accused of a capital crime before it goes to trial, you must have a true bill. So there`s anywhere from 15 to 21 grand jurors. Twelve jurors have to say that, yes, it is, in fact, a true bill, and they hand it back and say, OK, let`s go get this person. Let`s arrest this person and bring them into custody.
GRACE: Now, let me get something straight. I thought it took a simple majority, Mark Williams.
WILLIAMS: I`m hearing it`s 12 people that must say yea or nay to this. They must have 12 affirmative votes on that panel to get that true bill.
GRACE: So Jessica D`Onofrio, they do not need a simple majority out of 15? They can get by with 12?
D`ONOFRIO: I`m not exactly sure about the number there, Nancy. But what I do know is all they need to do is really convince this grand jury that there`s a reasonable suspicion that this child is dead and that the mother did it. If that`s the case, then this grand jury will likely hand down an indictment for murder or manslaughter.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, tot mom Casey Anthony`s case headed to a Florida grand jury. We are expecting homicide charges to be handed down against her. She is currently out on bond, on house arrest at her parents` home. That would end likely immediately with an arrest.
Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. We`ll be shortly joined by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Joining us tonight out of New York, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer, and defense attorney Jason Oshins, also out of New York.
Alex Sanchez, true bill, no bill -- explain the difference.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A true bill simply means that the grand jury has voted an indictment, meaning they have voted charges against you. A no bill means that the grand jury has decided that there is simply not enough evidence against you at the present time to have any charges filed against you.
GRACE: And Jason Oshins, to get a no bill does not mean the case is over with. That means that the state can then go and try to amass additional information and present the grand jury the same case again, if they want to.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re absolutely correct, Nancy.
GRACE: And also, the whole argument, Jason Oshins -- the defense attorney in this case announced on national TV he, quote, "doesn`t believe in the grand jury system," which has been around since about the 12th century. Grand jury is just a charging mechanism. This is not a jury trial. This is very simply when a group of people chosen from property taxes or the voter registration list meet -- there are 15 to 21 in Florida -- and they decide is there probable cause, is there enough evidence to charge someone, to send the case to a jury to determine the truth of the matter. Jason, agree or disagree?
OSHINS: Well, you`re right. It`s a very low standard. I mean, all you`re looking at, basically, is, you know, as opposed to reasonable doubt, you`re looking at a de minimus, you know, level of evidence. And it`s presented by an arm of the prosecutor`s office. There`s no judge involved. It`s -- you know, it`s you against the prosecution right there with a very, very low standard to bring a true bill.
GRACE: Right now, I am being joined out of Orlando, Florida, by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. And let me remind you, Tim Miller not just the head of this searching tool that has gone all over the world searching for missing people, particularly children and teens, he is a crime victim himself, Tim Miller`s daughter murdered and missing many, many years ago.
Tim, you`re back in Orlando, searching for Caylee Anthony. I understand you made a discovery.
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. I didn`t make the discovery. The discovery was made by a searcher. I`m very disappointed that it leaked, and it shouldn`t have been. But now it`s out, we need to clarify it.
GRACE: OK. I understand -- when I say "you," I am referring to Texas Equusearch. Was the searcher someone working with Texas Equusearch?
MILLER: Yes.
GRACE: And what was the discovery?
MILLER: Well, you know, it was an article of clothing that is very, very similar to an article of clothing that Caylee was wearing at one time and there`s a picture of it.
But Nancy, we`ve got to understand one thing. There`s been several articles of clothing found during this search effort. Many of them were sent off to a lab for analysis, and this one is being sent off also. So...
GRACE: OK, Tim Miller, let me ask you a couple of questions. Was the article of clothing a dress?
MILLER: Yes.
GRACE: OK. Was Caylee Anthony known to have a similar dress at one time?
MILLER: Yes.
GRACE: Was it a child`s size 6?
MILLER: Yes.
GRACE: Would a child size 6 be the size a 2 to 3-year-old girl would wear?
MILLER: I don`t think so. I`ve got my doubts on this. But you know, law enforcement`s doing their job...
GRACE: Well, according to our research, the answer is, in fact, yes. A child 2 to 3 years old would wear a child size 6, but it really depends on Caylee`s height and size. Tim Miller, where was the dress discovered?
MILLER: Well, it was alongside a road. It was a wooded area. It was laying in the bushes and...
GRACE: Was it near the Orlando airport?
MILLER: It was in an area where the -- of interest, where cell tower activity was happening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The minute she gets re-arrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail, and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I think tomorrow is a political move on the state`s attorney`s office. I think that the only reason that they`re doing this is because Lawson Lamar (ph) finally has some competition in this race. I found out on good sources this weekend that that`s exactly why it`s going to grand jury tomorrow. I find that it`s absurd that all of these leaks are coming out of not only the state`s attorney`s office but the prosecutors office and the sheriff`s department at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, it`s amazing the defense continues to claim leaks by the prosecution when they are the ones that went on the NBC "Today" show to talk about the case.
We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, the Florida grand jury set to meet in the case of tot mom Casey Anthony. Homicide charges expected to be handed down, and if they are, her arrest will be immediate. This as Texas Equusearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child-size 6 Disney World and Mickey Mouse dress similar to one little Caylee once wore. It has been sent off for testing, and we are waiting to hear results on that.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Cindy in Louisiana. Hi, Cindy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear? And hello to all of our Cajun friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. I have two really quick questions. One, who put up the bond for Casey Anthony to remain free after Leonard Padilla revoked her original bond? And was there ever any more information released about the improper use of donated funds by Casey`s parents?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first put up that bond. He`s joining us tonight from Reno, Nevada. He is from the California area. Mr. Padilla, who -- after you came off the original bond, who put up the bond to let her out?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I believe that it was two companies. They each put up $250,000. One of them was McDonald (ph) Bail Bonds, and I believe the other half was put up by one of the major players in the bail industry in Florida, a fellow by the name of Russell Fabish (ph), through one of his agents. I believe. I could be wrong.
GRACE: Leonard, isn`t it true -- I`ve got the bonding documents right here. Isn`t that true that the parents put up surety to back those bonds?
PADILLA: Supposedly, Cindy and George put up the equity in their home to back the bond for collateral, yes.
GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by also in Orlando. What became of allegations of improper use of Caylee`s search funds?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, at this point, it was being investigated. The fund was shut down for a certain point of time, and now it has reopened with a different bank. But none of those allegations were ever substantiated.
GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio, joining us with WKMG. If a murder charge is handed down tomorrow, what becomes of the child abuse -- the child neglect charges that are currently on the books?
D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, that charge could possibly be thrown out if a grand jury does decide to indict her on murder or manslaughter charges. So we`ll just have to wait and see if that happens.
GRACE: You know -- to the lawyers, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. Alex, it`s my understanding that the child neglect charge will absolutely be thrown out. Why? Because the child neglect charge accuses her of not searching for her daughter when she goes missing. You come in with a murder or a homicide charge, that completely voids out the claim she didn`t conduct a search.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I think there`s two things that could happen with those cases. Number one, the prosecutor could try to merge both cases together under one indictment, the neglect charges and the possible murder charges. But more likely than that, the prosecutor may turn around and say, I`m voluntarily moving to dismiss the neglect charges and concentrate on the murder case.
GRACE: Jason, absolutely does not make any sense. They are factually conflicting. You cannot claim the mother was neglectful by not reporting her child missing or searching for her, when, in fact, you`re claiming she killed her. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. You`ve got to choose charges.
OSHINS: Listen, the prosecution is not going to waste its valuable resources and the taxpayers` money to go on that lesser charge. That was done initially to hold her and to try and squeeze her for any further information. They`re definitely going to go after that top count and put all their resources inside that.
GRACE: To Deborah in Wisconsin. Hi, Deborah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know about the shovel that Casey borrowed from her neighbor.
GRACE: Yes? What about it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dirt on that shovel ever tested to see if it matched the dirt at the airport?
GRACE: What do we know about that shovel? Joining us, WNDB news person Mark Williams?
WILLIAMS: Well, what we know about the shovel is the last time we saw, it was bagged up by Orange County sheriff`s office investigators and taken out for testing. During tomorrow`s testimony, there`s, like, a half dozen investigators going to testify in front of the grand jury. That`s when we`re going to know what was on that shovel. That is the one unyielding piece of evidence which will probably come up tomorrow morning.
GRACE: Joining us, renowned medical examiner and author of "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper joining us out of Miami, Florida. Dr. Perper, thank you for joining us. Dr. Perper, are you -- we expect tomorrow the grand jury to hear from about 12 witnesses, one being George Anthony, the grandfather, some detectives, most likely FBI, lab people.
Dr. Perper, are you familiar with the air samples that were analyzed by the body farm? Have you ever heard of the air samples being analyzed?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I didn`t heard specifically, but if the hair samples have bouts (ph) or roots, then it`s possible to check them for DNA and find out to whom they belong, whether they belong to Caylee or to the mother.
GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding that the hair has a banding mark on it. What does that signify?
PERPER: Well, it might signify there was some kind of object which produce this kind of mark, but it`s going to be very difficult to make a determination what was this particular object.
GRACE: And back to Mark Williams. Mark, who do you expect to come before the grand jury?
WILLIAMS: Well, we expect, obviously, Orange County sheriff`s office investigators who have been working this case since mid-July. Also, forensic specialists from the FBI. Also, FBI agents who have also worked on this case. They`re all wind (ph) up, ready to testify come tomorrow morning.
GRACE: Mark Williams, what do you know about the dark banding on the hair sample allegedly taken out of mom Casey`s car trunk?
WILLIAMS: Well, from what we understand is that hair banding -- and I`m not a forensic scientist by any stretch of the imagination -- that that shows -- when you see that banding, that shows that death has occurred to that person who that hair belongs to. And they have found that banding, Nancy, on that sample of hair they took out of Casey Anthony`s automobile.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way, or even remotely supports that accusation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury will consider a range of charges against Casey, including first degree murder. It would only take a simple majority to find probable cause to indict, much lower beyond the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt threshold to later gain a conviction. Sources tell us they do expect a decision to indict or not by the end of the day Tuesday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That grand jury set to meet behind closed doors in about 12 hours from now, hearing evidence and testimony in the case against tot mom Casey Anthony.
Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. I understand that the only member of the Anthony family to testify will be grandfather George. What is the crux of his testimony?
D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, you know, you`ve heard in a lot of those -- that taped interrogation, he talks about Casey not letting him into the trunk of her car. He wanted to go back there. He thought she was acting a little strange, so he wanted to go inside her trunk. And she just blows right past him and gets something out of the trunk for him, whatever he wants.
So he`s going to provide a lot of information about her behavior, so on and so forth. Again, he`s the only person in the family to be testifying against her. We`re not going to hear from Cindy or Lee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony, tonight, as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing.
Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?
Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.
He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: In about 12 hours, the grand jury is set to either hand down a no bill or a true bill against mom Casey Anthony on homicide charges, meaning court watchers expect that to be a murder charge.
In the jurisdiction of Florida, only capital cases go before a grand jury. That`s in about 12 hours. At this time, we discover that Texas EquuSearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child`s Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, size 6 -- child`s size 6 similar to a dress little Caylee once had and has been sent away for testing.
With me, the head of Texas EquuSearch, Tim Miller. His group working solely on donations. They are a volunteer group.
Tim Miller, is it true that you are considering pulling out of the search for one reason, because of lack of cooperation from the Anthony family?
TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, JUST FOUND CHILD`S DRESS NEAR AIRPORT: You know, it`s -- we`ve got to remember, this is not about the Anthony family, and at times, allegations have been made against me, and it`s OK. This is about Caylee.
No, one of our members is actually on vacation this week that`s going to spend the entire week mapping areas out for this search to resume. We will be back here in two to three weeks, at the very, very most.
And this is about Caylee. We start getting focused on the other things.
GRACE: Mr. Miller, are -- is the family cooperating with you?
MILLER: Well, you know what, there is a report from a news reporter in Orlando that talked to Cindy today, and told Cindy that we`re $44,000 plus in this search, and in the efforts we`re putting in, and what the reporter told me that Cindy Anthony said that she would never speak to me again.
GRACE: Why?
MILLER: I -- I don`t have the answer for that. We were supposed to have some meetings this week when we came into town, have a group hug, let`s work together on this. They have been cancelled at the last minute. And.
GRACE: By whom? Who cancelled the meetings?
MILLER: By the Anthony family. By the Anthony family.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by there in Orlando. Natisha, why is the family reportedly not cooperating with EquuSearch?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, reportedly, Nancy, because the family still has hope that they want to find Caylee alive. And that is what they believe. And.
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t they want to find her whether she were dead or alive? Wouldn`t they want to find her remains to know?
LANCE: Right. Yes, absolutely. But they want to search.
GRACE: It would kill me to have a loved one`s remains out in the open, being mistreated by the elements in that manner.
LANCE: They want to search with the guys that Caylee is still alive. And so they have felt that some things Tim Miller may have said.
GRACE: But why don`t they do both, Natisha? Why can`t both searches be possible?
LANCE: They don`t want to operate under that, Nancy. They want to operate under the assumption that Caylee is alive.
GRACE: OK.
LANCE: And they do not want to hear that she`s not.
GRACE: Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry" -- Dr. Boesky, thank you for being with us, what do you read into their rejection of Tim Miller and Texas EquuSearch?
LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, I think that they -- I do not think that they think Caylee is still alive. I think they have lost their granddaughter, and now they`re trying to save their daughter.
And I have to think that there are some mixed emotions going on with Cindy, thinking, you know, as a mom would, could I have done more? Should I have adopted Caylee? Should I have pressed harder when we hadn`t seen Caylee?
I think that they`re really looking at how much enabling they did over the years and now they feel like this is their last hope to keep their daughter out of prison and they`re doing everything they can to try and convince us that she`s still alive. And I think deep down they know Caylee is not.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, Alex Sanchez and Jason Oshins, both veteran trial lawyers. These are not just talking heads, they are in court on a routine basis handling felony matters.
To Alex Sanchez, do you expect an indictment to be handed down tomorrow?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t, because there`s no -- this is going to take quite a long time to present these witnesses.
GRACE: You know, are you the same Alex Sanchez that has blurted out on the air, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich? Wasn`t that you?
SANCHEZ: I don`t believe I ever said that.
GRACE: Yes, I believe it was you.
SANCHEZ: Although the chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals said that. But in terms of the grand jury.
GRACE: It was actually Irvin Younger -- the state`s Irvin Younger who coined that. But please go ahead.
SANCHEZ: In terms of the grand jury, you have all these witnesses. They have to be brought to court. They have to testify. They have to bring their documents. You have to play tape recordings, a video, introduce laboratory reports.
It`s not likely that they`re going to come to this conclusion in one day. It`s more likely this is going to take several days, or even a couple of weeks to come to a determination.
GRACE: Jason Oshins, agree or disagree?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think Alex is right. There is a -- monumental amount of evidence, and they want to get it right. They want to put it all in and have this impaneled grand jury come back with a true bill.
GRACE: This is not a trial jury, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. You are intentionally misleading the viewers. This is simply a charging tool by the state. They hear a bare bones, skeleton case and they simply decide -- is there enough evidence that a jury should hear this case?
SANCHEZ: And by the way.
GRACE: And that`s all a grand jury does, Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: I think they`re making a mistake right now with this new evidence regarding the dress. Shouldn`t the grand jury be delayed until they find out the results of that dress, whether or not it was her dress or not?
GRACE: You know, that is the defense chief tactic.
To John Lucich, former investigator, author of "Cyber Lies," isn`t it true that a defense`s prime strategic tool is delay, delay, delay? The longer you wait, the weaker the state`s case may get, and the more likely memories will fade, witnesses and evidence will be lost. They always want to delay.
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Absolutely, they do. In fact, they will also try and use the prosecution`s evidence against them.
You know, Baez just released a motion to get all this type of evidence. They want not only inculpatory evidence, but exculpatory evidences also.
Things that have proved negative for the investigation and they want all of this stuff to.
GRACE: No, I tell you, I don`t have a problem with that, Lucich. The Brady versus Maryland motion, which is a U.S. Supreme Court case, originating out of Maryland, says the state must hand over exculpatory evidence to the defense. Fine. Have at it.
If there is something exculpatory about Casey Anthony, I would like to hear it in court. The jury wants to hear it, fine. The state should win this case, fair and square if they can.
But to you, Lucich, the defense has been granted on Friday the ability to review much of the state`s physical evidence. How will that happen? Would you actually trust the defense attorneys to handle your evidence?
LUCICH: No. Let me just go back to the first point that you just talked about, because at the grand jury, they`re not going to get a chance to hear that exculpatory information and only hear one side of this case. And I think they`re going to have to put so much in, that they`re going to be able -- it`s going to take several days.
Now, as far as this second question you had for me, they`re not -- they`re not going to be able to.
GRACE: Yes. The Brady motion is not for the grand jury. That is for the petite jury of 12. Continue.
LUCICH: Right. They`re not going to be able to touch that stuff without being monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They`re not going to have sole access to that.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the calls. Linda in Texas, hi, Linda.
LINDA, TEXAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is for your psychologist tonight.
GRACE: Yes.
LINDA: OK. I know that this case is quickly coming to a head, and I have all the sympathy in the world for the grandparents, but Cindy, the grandmother, I`m wondering, considering everything that Casey has done and said up to this point, Cindy has made excuses for her.
I`m wondering if somewhere, somehow, that Cindy is actually afraid of Casey, considering that she has called her a -- a sociopath herself.
GRACE: Excellent question. Dr. Boesky?
BOESKY: Well, I think this is very typical these days that a lot of teenagers and young adults, parents try to be their friend or they don`t want to get them angry. And you can tell that Casey can blackmail her parents. She can punish them. I mean you`ve heard what she said about herself being a spiteful B-I-T-C-H.
And so I think there is a level of fear. Not fear that she is going to hurt them or kill them, but I think there was fear that she was going to take little Caylee away from them, and so I think they did more for her just to keep her around, so that they could see their granddaughter.
GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.
And as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to a Pensacola, Florida little friend of the show. There he is, little Joey. He turns 5 years old today. A 5-year-old little crime fighter.
Isn`t he precious? Happy birthday, little Joey.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`s be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching if she could.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I have tried to find out just information from people going out to different places, like Fusion Ultra Lounge and a couple bars that I know Zenaida had gone to downtown before to see.
Just kind of random talk if anybody heard about my nanny or talk to her lately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell anyone specifically that Zenaida took your child?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Florida grand jury set to meet on homicide charges reportedly in about 12 hours from now. Charges against to have the mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance her little girl, 3-year-old Caylee Marie. We are taking your calls live.
Out to Natisha Lance, standing in Orlando Florida. Grandmother Cindy is lashing out, making a lot of claims, including a political conspiracy against Casey Anthony? What does that mean?
LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. She is saying there are -- the district attorney, as well as the sheriff are up -- the sheriff is leaving office in January, and the district attorney is up for re-election in November. So she is making the insinuation that possibly they are doing things for political gain. He wanted to close some things out before he leaves office.
GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. He`s leaving the sheriff`s office. What, is he going to retire?
LANCE: Yes.
GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Yes?
LANCE: Yes, yes.
GRACE: So how is it going to help him to bring a charge if he`s retiring?
LANCE: Well.
GRACE: He`s going to sit on his sofa and watch TV. And how is this going to help him?
LANCE: Well, he`s.
GRACE: No, I`m serious.
LANCE: Well, the sheriff`s office is saying that`s absolutely not true whatsoever that that.
GRACE: So what is her thinking? I`m asking you. Why - how could the sheriff -- he`s retiring. How could this benefit him?
LANCE: I guess they`re thinking that possibly they want to go out with a big bang.
GRACE: OK. Jessica D`Onofrio, thoughts?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, let me just get something straight here, Nancy. The state attorney -- our state attorney here in Orange, Osceola County is Lawson Lamar. He is up for re- election.
GRACE: For re-election, yes. And the sheriff is retiring.
D`ONOFRIO: So he`ll be up for.
GRACE: We just heard that.
D`ONOFRIO: Exactly, exactly. So I guess what Cindy is trying to say here is he is trying to sneak this case in before he is up for reelection here. He doesn`t have a lot of time left, and he`s sneaking this in before the grand jury dissolves.
GRACE: Can I ask you, Jessica, does he have competition?
D`ONOFRIO: Sure.
GRACE: Who`s running against him?
D`ONOFRIO: He does have some competition out here in Orange/Osceola County, but I can say that it`s not just Cindy who is making these allegations. A lot of the people who I`ve talked to around the case have also brought that up, that this might be politically motivated.
And you know, a lot of people are trying to protect this case, and a lot of people want to see this case through. And I think that maybe their frustration may come in here, because they don`t want to see this case maybe tried before everything comes in, before all.
GRACE: You know.
D`ONOFRIO: . of the evidence comes in. Because there`s no statute of limitations on murder here. They can wait 25 years and bring this.
GRACE: Yes, yes. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of California who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. To say this case politically motivated is completely inane, because, Leonard, a little girl is missing.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: No, no.
GRACE: She`s gone. There is evidence of a dead body in the mother`s car trunk, with hair that is either the little girl`s or the mother`s that shows the person is dead, most likely. So how can anyone say this is a political stunt? There is evidence of death.
PADILLA: That`s a Cindyism. But, Nancy, let me take you back to the shovel. She backs the car into the garage, she takes the child, lays her dawn, takes her clothes off, moves the ladder towards the edge of the pool, puts the child in the pool, going to make it look like a drowning.
The child drops to the bottom of the pool, she goes to the neighbors, pulls the shovel from the neighbor, comes back up, scoops the child up, puts her back down on the grass.
GRACE: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Go ahead.
PADILLA: Anyhow. All I`m saying is.
GRACE: OK. Let me just say.
PADILLA: . there is your shovel. There is your shovel.
GRACE: . one line -- the search for chloroform shows me that there was never any accident. But you`re saying that.
PADILLA: You`re correct.
GRACE: . explains.
PADILLA: She wanted to make it look like a 911 accident.
GRACE: Understood.
PADILLA: But it never happened.
GRACE: Understood.
To Crystal in Georgia, hi, crystal.
CRYSTAL, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hey, Nancy. I love your show. I watch it every night. My question is.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CRYSTAL: My question is, is when Casey goes in front of the grand jury in the morning, and they charge her with murder or manslaughter or whatever, and she goes to jail, will she get a bond? And if so, is it going to be the same old crazy stuff that`s been going on with all of the lies and -- playing games?
GRACE: Excellent question, Crystal in Georgia. Number one, she will not appear at the grand jury. There is -- you`re a target of the grand jury investigation or charging, you do not have to testify against yourself. She will not be there tomorrow.
But, back to Leonard Padilla. In a nutshell, she is out on bond on child neglect right now. If she is indicted -- and the fraud charges, for the checks. If she is indicted, that bond will be revoked. Will there be a bond on murder?
PADILLA: In a nutshell, no. She goes to jail, and she stays there.
GRACE: Does Florida give a bond on murder?
PADILLA: I don`t know what Florida does. California does on very few occasions, but not on murder one.
GRACE: Out to -- Tamara in Tennessee. Hi, Tamara.
TAMARA, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hey, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
TAMARA: Well, George and Cindy Anthony previously stated they had certain persons of interest under observation.
GRACE: Yes.
TAMARA: OK. Who were these people? Why were they of interest and what`s the status on this?
GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB, recall when George and Cindy stated there are other people of interest they believe little Caylee and they are being surveyed. What became of it?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Not much of anything. You know that was just a statement that George Anthony made under the heat of the pressure one day.
One Friday -- I believe it was one Friday afternoon, he was not able to produce any evidence and since that time, of course, he and Cindy have had several meetings with sheriff`s office investigators.
And Nancy, if I could say, I think when this thing is done -- said and done, I think Cindy and all three of them could be charged with obstruction of justice.
GRACE: I find that very, very difficult to believe, Mark Williams, but I do agree the parents are trying their best to help their daughter.
To Tracy in Maryland, hi, Tracy.
TRACY, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. My question is for Tim with EquuSearch. Wouldn`t he be able to get the reward money if he does find Caylee? And that would help his cause a lot?
GRACE: Excellent question. Tim Miller?
MILLER: You know what, from what I understand, that reward money is for a safe return and I -- we are not here for any money and no reason whatsoever. This is about Caylee, 100 percent Caylee.
So let`s not talk about money, OK?
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GRACE: In about 12 hour, the Florida grand jury expected to hear evidence regarding indicting tot mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance of her little girl.
Out to the lines, Lynn, in North Carolina. Hi, Lynn.
LYNN, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
LYNN: Yes, they -- this question is for Mr. Miller. The dress that they found at the airport, was it in tact, was it torn or tattered or looked like it had been mutilated by animals or something?
GRACE: What was the condition of the dress, Tim?
MILLER: Good condition.
GRACE: Good condition.
MILLER: Good condition.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by, grandmother Cindy, making a lot of accusations right now, including a conspiracy that police are not looking for little Caylee. What else?
LANCE: Well, just like you said she is saying that police are not looking for little Caylee. She also said that she has proof that they are not taking tips and following up on those tips any more.
GRACE: Also claiming that mom Casey is the real victim. What does she mean by that?
LANCE: She said that Caylee is not -- she said that Casey is a victim as well. To that, I guess, she said that her daughter has been tried in the court of public opinions. She said the jury pool is being tainted as well as the grand jury pool and there`s going to be no chance for Casey to get a fair trial.
GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB 1150, when will we know about the indictment?
WILLIAMS: I was thinking, I have to agree with some of your other experts. It`s not going to be tomorrow by any stretch of the imagination, because there will be a lot of evidence to be presented.
I would hope by the end of the week since they just have to have a burden of proof that -- that there is enough proof there to issue a murder one indictment.
GRACE: Everyone, we`ll give you the latest tomorrow night. But let`s stop now to remember Army Specialist Ronald Harrison, 25, Morris Plains, New Jersey, killed Iraq. Proud to serve, loved football, basketball, cooking.
His family`s favorite dishes, carrots and fish, chicken and London broil. Dreamed of working as an auto mechanic back home. Leaves behind parents, Richard and Beverly, sister, Heather, widow, Kagen, and son, Max.
Ronald Harrison, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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