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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Indicated for First Degree Murder
Aired October 14, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment. Charges: murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and of course, lying to police. Testimony starting 09:00 this morning, including grandfather George Anthony, cadaver dog handlers, the FBI and lead detective. Bombshell results from Tennessee`s state body farm reportedly sealing the decision to take the case to grand jury.
Tot mom Casey Anthony pulled over in traffic and arrested. No bond tonight. But did she actually make a last-ditch attempt to elude police in a getaway car? This just after a press conference where she sheds tears. But for who, little Caylee or herself? Will the state seek the death penalty? That would be making tot mom Casey Anthony the 16th woman in Florida history to be sentenced to death. But still tonight, the question remains, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today an experienced Orange County grand jury has heard sworn testimony and they returned a seven-count indictment against Casey Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. An Orange County grand jury has indicted tot mom Casey Anthony for first degree murder, and as a result, the 22- year-old tot mom could be facing the death penalty.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: ... waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail?
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Whose fault is...
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.
CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you would have told them the truth and not lied about everything...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? Mom asked me yesterday, even (INAUDIBLE) they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only was Anthony indicted for murder, but the grand jury indicted her on six additional charges, including aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. A Florida grand jury hands down a multi- count indictment against mom Casey Anthony, including murder one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that we are not here to rejoice in today`s grand jury indictment. We are, however, pleased that the ladies and gentlemen serving on that jury were able to hear the evidence presented to them and arrive at an informed conclusion based strictly on the evidence that was presented to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And here`s -- let me -- let me...
CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not know where she is.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would again ask you and implore all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst because that`s my job. And I wouldn`t be doing her a proper service if I didn`t prepare her for probably what`s going to go down today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation. The grand jury has concluded that little Caylee is deceased, and their daughter has been indicted in her death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, give us the latest.
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, it only took 30 minutes for this grand jury to decide that Casey Anthony should be charged with first degree murder. Now, that charge does carry the death penalty in this state. And state attorney Lawson Lamar -- he was able to convince 12 -- at least 12 of the 19 jurors that this should go to trial. So this is a big, big twist in the case. This is a major event here, obviously. That doesn`t even need to be said. But as you like to say, Nancy, a major bombshell today.
GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Explain to me what went down today.
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, what went down was those 12 -- at least 12 of those jurors said -- they indicted her on first degree murder, which is a capital case here in the state of Florida, also one count of child abuse, one count of aggravated manslaughter of a child and four counts of lying to police officers. That`s the big thing.
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Who were the witnesses at grand jury?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Who were the witnesses, did you say?
GRACE: Yes.
PIERCE: Well, first and foremost, George Anthony, who spoke for over an hour. And he made a statement beforehand saying that he was not happy to be doing it, but he did testify. Also, we heard from FBI agents, from forensic investigators, from the Orange County lead investigator, Yuri Melich.
GRACE: And Jessica D`Onofrio, in what order did they go before the grand jury? How long were they testifying?
D`ONOFRIO: They started, Nancy, at about 9:00 o`clock this morning. They heard from about half a dozen witnesses. They went through to lunch. They broke for lunch. They came back around 1:00 PM, and then they heard from about two more witnesses after that. So there were quite a few hours of testimony there. And about 3:30 in the afternoon, that`s when we heard that the grand jury had made a decision on this. That`s when we were all called in to the chambers, and that`s when we heard that she was going to be charged with a capital offense.
GRACE: And what do we know, Mark Williams with WNDB, whether the state will seek the death penalty?
WILLIAMS: Right now, state attorney Lawson Lamar says he has not made a decision whether Casey will undergo the death penalty or just life in prison. That still has yet to be determined, Nancy.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. We`re about to unleash the lawyers. Explain to me, Mark Williams, what happened when police were tailing mom Cindy Anthony with Casey Anthony in the car.
WILLIAMS: Unbelievable. Another bombshell for you. First off, Casey Anthony was at her attorney`s office in Kissimmee. She got into a car driven by her mother, Cindy. They started back on the 417 and got near what they call Boggy Creek Road, which is near the Orlando International Airport, just south of the airport. Cindy pulls underneath an underpass. That`s where Casey gets out, gets into a gray SUV, and that SUV takes off. Undercover agents trailing all this finally pull the SUV over.
We don`t know if she was trying to make the great escape to a nearby county or what, and we don`t know who the driver was of that SUV. Right now, she`s being booked into the Orange County jail here in Orlando. First appearance tomorrow morning 8:30 AM sharp.
GRACE: And what will that appearance be about?
WILLIAMS: Basically, the reading of the charges. Her attorney will be there. She`ll be there. And she`ll be scooted back to her jail cell.
GRACE: I noticed that in the press conference -- you`re seeing video of it right now, Caylee -- Casey Anthony speaking beside her attorney -- to Leonard Padilla, she breaks down in tears. What do you make of it?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I got to tell you, Nancy, that`s the first time. And I haven`t seen it yet because I just got back from a convention up at Lake Tahoe. But that`s the first time that I`ve heard anybody tell me that she broke down and cried during the whole situation that I`ve been involved in. And what it tells me is that reality might be soaking in and maybe Jose might have a shot of reality at this stage of the game.
GRACE: Joining us right now, an exclusive guest this evening, Mark Nejame. He`s joining us from Orlando, Florida. He is the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Nejame a trial veteran. Sir, thank you for being with us.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: Good evening, Nancy.
GRACE: I understand at the outset that you cannot comment on George Anthony`s testimony before the grand jury today. But I would like to hear an explanation as to why your client, Cindy Anthony, changed her daughter out of the car into another car under an overpass.
NEJAME: I`m not sure that`s what happened at all. I`ve -- in all honesty, I was dealing with George throughout the day and I have not spoken to Cindy. I`ve only spoken to George today. It was, as you can imagine, a pretty amazing day emotionally for him, and so that`s where the attention was. And then I spoke to him late afternoon, then simply left the office and have called and have not spoken to either of them later this evening.
GRACE: Mr. Nejame, your client, George Anthony, repeatedly stated that he was not concerned about the grand jury testimony because he would not be testifying against his daughter.
NEJAME: I`m not sure about that, Nancy, because you can surely see that something quite different happened today. The reality of it is, is that George Anthony stood up and was honest and answered every question posed to him. We can, of course, not get into the contents of that. But the reality of it is, is that he realized that this is what he needed to do and he did it, and it took an incredibly courageous act for him to do so. To testify against your own daughter, who`s accused of murdering her daughter, your beloved granddaughter, is an act of courage that I`ve rarely seen or witnessed in my life.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, it may very well be that him believing he was telling the truth would not be damning. But throughout this ordeal, your client, George Anthony, seemed to be the most realistic and the most cooperative with cops.
Very quickly, back to Jessica D`Onofrio. What did you believe was the crux of Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury, Jessica?
D`ONOFRIO: I`m sorry, I didn`t hear you, Nancy.
GRACE: What was Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury?
D`ONOFRIO: Well, George Anthony was brought here today as the only family member to speak and testify against his daughter. He obviously knew a lot about her behavior, and he knew the last time he saw that child alive. So his testimony probably held a lot of weight today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My focus is always on my granddaughter. It always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife. I love my son. I want everyone to have a prayer for all of us today, especially for my granddaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a bit of useful information`s been provided by Ms. Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. And I would point out that the truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You pointed at a third floor window and you said, Well, that`s whatshername`s bedroom and Zanny`s bedroom is right below -- is on the other side. That`s what you told me. So that was a lie.
CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has lied to me in the past. And when she`s lied, she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to the bottom of the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Florida grand jury hands down a multi-count indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony just hours ago, this done behind closed doors, those charges including murder one. In the Florida jurisdiction, that is death penalty-qualified.
The district attorney has not made an announcement whether the death penalty will be sought. There are only a few women in Florida history that have been sentenced to the death penalty. I believe this would make her the 16th woman in Florida history to actually be sentenced to the death penalty, only two having been executed in the past. Here you are seeing some of them.
As we show you those shots, let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. What do you make of the charges, Ray?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, obviously very serious, but I actually see a glimmer of hope for the defendant in count number three. This is the aggravated manslaughter count. It has two opportunities for the jury to find a lesser offense or for her to plead guilty. Opportunity number one, that the child died by culpable negligence. We`ve talked about that on many shows. Or secondly, that the child died through the neglect or exploitation of another person. These are opportunities for a plea bargain.
GRACE: Explain.
GIUDICE: Well, it`s a lesser offense. It`s not capital one. It`s not going to the chair. It might be 20 to life. It might be less.
GRACE: What about it, Doug Burns?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I agree with Raymond. I mean, everybody`s been unsuccessful in trying to get her to speak. Well, when they sit her down in a room and say, We are seeking to put you to death, potentially, I think her attitude may change. And I think those lesser charges are in there, exactly as Ray said, to get her to explain what really happened.
GRACE: Well, let me see the two defense attorneys right now. Both of you are misleading the viewers. And I say this because you all know that on a murder one charge, without there being an additional indictment, the jury will be given opportunities to find a lesser included offense, such as manslaughter. It didn`t have to be in the indictment.
GIUDICE: Nancy, it`s -- go ahead, Doug. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Ray?
BURNS: We`re talking about plea bargaining, not...
GRACE: So? It doesn`t have to be in the indictment for a plea bargain either, Doug Burns.
GIUDICE: Well, but it`s indicative of the fact that the state is already positioning this.
BURNS: Right.
GIUDICE: Number one, they don`t have quite the case they think they do. Or number two, as Doug said...
GRACE: You know what?
GIUDICE: ... they`re sending her and her counsel a message. Come on, we`ve got this set up for your plea.
BURNS: Yes.
GRACE: Let`s see the lawyers again. You know what, you two? I`m not including Nejame in this one because he`s never said this. But you two from the get-go, second verse, same as the first. Every time I threw you a question, no matter what the question was, it was, Blah, blah, blah, there`s not an indictment. Well, today there is an indictment and you`re already saying the state is jockeying for position. You know, it never ends with you two.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Shannon in Florida. Hi, Shannon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) you were talking about, the indictment, how can the grand jury see (INAUDIBLE) due to the manslaughter charge (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK, you know what? I couldn`t make out your question. Repeat? OK, can`t hear Shannon in Florida. Let`s go to Marla in Texas. Hi, Marla.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. My question is, on the dress that they found, like, two days ago, any results on that?
GRACE: Let`s go straight to Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch. Tim, what more can you tell us about the dress that was discovered, a child`s size 6? It was a Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, similar to a dress we know that Caylee once had. It has been sent for testing. What can you tell us about it?
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Just what you just said, Nancy. It`s been sent for testing. And of course, it`s going to take some time for results to come back on that dress, but -- you know, that`s all I know about the dress.
GRACE: Tim, are you going to resume searching or not?
MILLER: Nancy, we don`t have a choice. I mean, right now, with the evidence that apparently has came down, it`s -- you know, it looks like it`s apparent there`s a body out there. And for no reason to -- to try to put Casey through no more pain, Caylee`s little body needs to be found. I mean, this little girl needs to be found. The community needs that closure...
GRACE: So is that a yes?
MILLER: Yes. Caylee`s body needs to be found and...
GRACE: So are you going to continue searching?
MILLER: The search, Nancy, will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history. Yes. The answer is yes.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What were the feds doing in that grand jury testimony today?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, they kind of broke it down. You had George. You had the cadaver dog. You had the lead investigator and the FBI agent in between. He was second from last.
He was there to testify on all the investigative leads that the FBI has conducted both in Florida, out of Florida, the forensic testing and possibly, quite possibly, some of the polygraph examinations that were given by their people. He was there to talk about anything and any role that the FBI has had, in this -- in this case within cooperation with Orange County.
GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, I noticed that -- in much of the reporting, it was stated that results from the Oak Ridge body farm - - what were the impetus of the state`s final decision to go to the grand jury? Is there more from the body farm than what we know, other than the air samples out of the trunk?
WILLIAMS: Well, if there is, Nancy, they aren`t certainly telling us. They haven`t told us that information whatsoever. I would assume -- again, just an assumption -- that when the body farm did conduct the air quality samples and found that chloroform in the back of Casey`s car, is that there is a lot more to be let out. And I think that will come out during trial, Nancy.
GRACE: Back to Mr. Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. At this juncture, do you believe that they will cooperate with police, or are all bets off?
NEJAME: I don`t know why you would make that statement, Nancy. The fact of the matter is, George obviously cooperated with the police. In fact, we didn`t -- we kept it under the radar, but a week ago, they voluntarily, without subpoena, went in and provided DNA samples of saliva and hair. So the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter is...
GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Mr. Nejame. Let me rephrase my question.
NEJAME: Thank you.
GRACE: Will Cindy Anthony now cooperate, and Lee Anthony, fully with police?
NEJAME: I don`t represent Lee Anthony. I`ve only met him once, so I can`t address Lee. I can tell you that Cindy Anthony appeared voluntarily a week ago without subpoena and gave hair and saliva samples pursuant to request. So the answer was she did, and I anticipate that will continue.
GRACE: Do you believe they`ll take polygraphs?
NEJAME: Sorry?
GRACE: Will they take polygraphs?
NEJAME: If deemed to be appropriate. But as you well know, they`re inappropriate because Cindy is on medication and they`re not suspects -- and they`re not -- and they`re not...
GRACE: Plenty of witnesses take polygraphs.
(CROSSTALK)
NEJAME: Excuse me. I wasn`t through...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It only took the grand jury about 30 minutes to come to a conclusion on this case. At least 12 people up there believed that there was enough evidence to indict Casey Anthony for murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This indictment is not proof of guilt. It is a grand jury finding and accusation. The defendant is cloaked with the presumption of innocence and has a right to a jury trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, you`ve seen the press conference this afternoon where she finally broke down in tears just around the time of her indictment. What do you make of it?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think it`s tempting to think, as Jose (SIC) Padilla suggested, that reality has hit her, but I really doubt that. I mean, she`s shown a complete incapacity to grapple with reality or to even let it bother her in any real way. I think the fact is, her Christmas has been taken away. I think this was a carefully laid plan to get rid of her daughter so she could have a fantastic life and to spend time with her boyfriend and her friends. And now it`s all gone, and that`s what she`s thinking about, I believe, at this moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually went into the car to smell what it smelled like, and in my experience, a smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Derick(ph) jumped up into the trunk, front poles, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact, and gave me a fine train of alert.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I`ve just got to tell you what my feelings are. I don`t like how it smells. I`m being straight with you guys. I just don`t -- I don`t like the smell in the car.
C. ANTHONY: There is no evidence that there is a child that is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is the possibility this child is no longer alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that can be concluded.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare over the last several months. She has a missing child. She is also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.
And we just ask that everyone respect that and everyone understand what Casey Anthony is going through.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know, it`s still amazing to me that throughout this entire ordeal, culminating in today`s grand jury indictment of tot mom Casey Anthony with murder one, plus other charges, never once have we heard her make a public plea for people to help her find her child.
Even today, when she is facing indictment, finally, the tears flow. But never did we see that for her daughter. Now, of course, the defense attorneys tonight will argue that means nothing in a court of law. I beg to disagree.
To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, and he is hired, on board the Casey Anthony defense team.
Dr. Kobilinsky, do you believe that there is additional evidence from the body farm that cutting-edge crime lab in Oakridge, Tennessee. Do you think that there are additional tests, other than the air samples?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: There are very well may be additional tests. I`m very struck by what you just said.
Lawson Lamar, the state`s attorney, and I quote -- he said the investigation contains intricate forensics that are on the cutting edge of science. And now I think that the defense team really has to look at that science, question the -- reliability, determine whether there are validation studies, and whether there are support by other scientists in the relevant discipline for this technology.
GRACE: Kobe, you know what? Save it for a jury, because I`m sure there`s going to be one. Because the very same arguments have been made about fingerprints, they`ve been made about tire tracks, they`ve been made about touch DNA. They have been made about DNA.
KOBILINSKY: Yes. And remember, Nancy.
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE)
KOBILINSKY: Remember, that thing.
GRACE: Naysayers have said no such thing about cadaver dogs, fire dogs, drug dogs, you name it, always a naysayer, saying, it`s not so. So now you`re going to tell me that science against Casey Anthony isn`t so?
KOBILINSKY: Well, you mentioned fingerprints, and remember that the FBI had a case recently, the Madrid train bombing, where three examiners got it wrong. We have to make sure that the science is reliable, because people`s lives.
GRACE: You know what, Kobe, I couldn`t hear you. What type of science was wrong?
KOBILINSKY: I said the fingerprint evidence in the Madrid train bombing case was wrong. The FBI.
GRACE: You mean, where the -- part of the train that blew up?
KOBILINSKY: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: Yes, well, I guess so.
KOBILINSKY: In other words.
GRACE: When part of the train has blown up, how can you achieve a perfect fingerprint? But are you telling me, right now, on national TV, that you doubt fingerprint technology?
KOBILINSKY: No.
GRACE: That you don`t believe it`s for real?
KOBILINSKY: No, what I`m saying is that.
GRACE: Oh OK.
KOBILINSKY: . mistakes can be made.
GRACE: Glad to hear that. But mistakes are not what you said before. Before you said the science may not be legitimate.
KOBILINSKY: Well.
GRACE: And so the state has got a problem. Now you`re saying mistakes. So what argument are you going to make, Kobe?
KOBILINSKY: Well.
GRACE: Which one? You can`t have your cake and eat it, too.
KOBILINSKY: Well, for the science to be admissible, it has to be deemed reliable and supported by the discipline.
GRACE: Yes, we know that.
KOBILINSKY: Here we may have questions, because it sounds to me like this is cutting-edge science that.
GRACE: So what about your mistake argument? Are you suggesting that the state has made mistakes handling the evidence?
KOBILINSKY: I think anything is possible. We have to look closely at that.
GRACE: So let`s go to the lawyers. Ray Giudice, Doug Burns.
Ray Giudice, just take off your defense hat for just a moment. There was a long, long time, years ago, you were a prosecutor.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: You were an officer of the court as a prosecutor. Now it`s very simple. Every scientific test must be shown to be a reliable test.
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: Yes, no?
GIUDICE: A foundation has to be laid. That`s correct.
GRACE: Now, do you also, like Kobilinsky, doubt the validity of fingerprint tests?
GIUDICE: Not at all. However, here is the doctor`s point. When I first started prosecuting DUIs 25 years ago, they first introduced the breath test machine. You know there were a lot of jurors that didn`t believe a machine could tell you how much alcohol or how many beers that defendant had the night before, and there were a lot of not guilty`s for the first few years and a lot of cases went up to the court of appeals.
Cutting-edge science is issues for reversible error.
GRACE: Doug Burns?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, I disagree with everybody in the sense that we can`t talk about anything. Let`s see the evidence in a courtroom, which is what you always preach, Nancy, and then and only then can we start challenging, questioning and going back and forth, which is what we do for a living.
And, of course, I was also a good guy, a prosecutor, for nine years.
GRACE: Yes, you were.
Let`s go back to the reporters, everyone. Just hours ago, handed down a felony indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony. We are taking your calls live.
To Erica in Florida, hi, Erica.
ERICA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi. I was curious as to the reason why they didn`t put -- say death penalty? Is it because they`re going to use it as a bargaining tool for her to.
GRACE: Erica, that`s very astute of you, Erica in Florida. Now, first of all, at this juncture, which is just the charging phase, no one expects for the state`s attorney to come out and say, yes, we`re going to seek the death penalty.
Very rarely do you get a sudden announcement of that nature. Typically, it will be several days, weeks, maybe, sometimes months, after the initial indictment that that decision is made.
And in many offices, it`s made by a committee, not just the elected D.A. makes the decision. So I would not expect that for some time.
But what about, Mike Brooks, the death penalty and a murder one charge, as a bargaining chip, for her, Casey Anthony, to tell where the body is?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. You know, as Doug said, and as Ray said -- I rarely agree with Doug and Ray, but I have to agree with them on this, they`re going to sit her down.
And when she -- when they start talking about lethal injection and putting her to death, that might strike a little bit of reality for a change in this young lady and maybe -- decide to cooperate with law enforcement.
But you know, we heard from Baez again today, Nancy. It`s all about poor Casey. You know, what about poor Caylee as she lays somewhere, you know, decomposing?
You know, come on, Casey, you`ve got to cooperate, or else you are going to get a needle in your arm. Bottom line.
GRACE: We know -- to Leonard Padilla, I understand what everybody is saying about use the manslaughter charge as a bargaining chip. You know what, Padilla, they had that chance to cut a deal a long time ago.
And the attorney, Jose Baez, got on air, said point blank, oh, no, I don`t want immunity, no limited immunity deal for me. No, no, no. We`re not working a deal.
So in my mind, that train has left the station, and now it`s time to go forward with the prosecution.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I think you`re absolutely correct. And I was just reviewing in the studio here, while you were interviewing the other guests. She is not crying. There isn`t a tear being shed down her face. She is not crying.
She is the same person that was dealing with us when we were back there for those nine days. There is a sadness in her face, but she is definitely not crying.
GRACE: You know, Padilla, another thing tonight, as much as people have lambasted Cindy Anthony, and maybe she`s made some wrong choices, that house must be so quiet and so full of pain tonight.
PADILLA: And let me tell you something else that was discussed many times when Rob Dick was driving her to and from her attorney`s office. The choppers that were overhead, that they were never able to see the cars when they were under the overpasses and that was something that was commented on several times.
GRACE: What more can you tell me about the quick change under the overpass, Jessica D`Onofrio?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, she was leaving her attorney`s office with her mother. They went underneath that overpass, and she switched and got into her bail bondsman`s car. It was a gray SUV.
The bail bondsman`s car takes off with her, and then an unmarked sheriff`s deputy car pulls her over and then takes her to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, in turn, after that, she goes to the Orange County jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: The grand jury process is a prosecutorial tool, and that is why it`s not something that I would participate in. I`m not allowed to cross examine, which would be a true test of any evidence. The ability to withstand the cross-examination, and I don`t think that`s a process that we wish to engage in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all.
PADILLA: She acted absolutely like nothing had happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She went about her business every day. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These chairs aren`t very comfortable?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lay way back.
C. ANTHONY: Exactly. I`m not comfortable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like I`m going to.
C. ANTHONY: (LAUGHTER)
BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She has been crying. Now it`s not bawling, mind you. Her mother immediately goes who took her, who took her and Casey goes, the nanny did. She was kidnapped, mom. And at that point, my sister is done crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite the charges filed against Miss Anthony today, I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.
We, for the sake of Caylee`s grandparents, her loved ones and those on every level who have worked on this case will continue to do everything we possibly can to recover little Caylee.
Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A Florida grand jury hands down a murder one charge today against tot mom Casey Anthony, also included other counts. They include a manslaughter charge regarding child abuse. Also lying to cops.
We are taking your calls live. To Deneen in Ohio, hi, Deneen.
DENEEN, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
DENEEN: I was wondering about the strand of hair that was found in the trunk of the car.
GRACE: Yes.
DENEEN: Once they found out that -- or find a match to Caylee for DNA with the strand of hair, is there a test that can determine definitely that the dark band was caused due to death?
GRACE: Yes. There are tests to determine that. But the problem is going to be, and we`ll go to Lawrence Kobilinsky on that, famed forensic scientist.
Kobe, if there is not a nucleus on the hair, in other words, a root.
KOBILINSKY: Right.
GRACE: . will they be able to get DNA, or just mitochondrial DNA?
KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. You`re right on target, Nancy. Without a root, the best they can do is mitochondrial DNA. That genetic profile is not unique to anybody. Not.
GRACE: Really? Because they have been using it overseas.
KOBILINSKY: Yes.
GRACE: . with the Red Cross to identify bodies. The U.S. government has used mitochondrial DNA for decades.
KOBILINSKY: Yes.
GRACE: So now you`re telling me that the U.S. government`s use of mitochondrial DNA is in question?
KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. It`s just that it is not a unique.
GRACE: Really? Because that`s what it sounded like you were saying.
KOBILINSKY: No, no. Let me make it clear.
GRACE: Please.
KOBILINSKY: It is not a unique profile to an individual. There are other people who have the same mitochondrial genetic profile.
GRACE: Kobe, Kobe, isn`t it true that it`s either going to be the mother or the individual?
KOBILINSKY: Or any maternally related relative.
GRACE: OK.
KOBILINSKY: Even Lee has the same profile.
GRACE: So since the only other maternal relative is going -- could remotely be near that car trunk would be Cindy, Casey.
KOBILINSKY: Right.
GRACE: .or Caylee, and we know.
KOBILINSKY: Or Lee. Or Lee. Lee also has the same type.
GRACE: OK. Or Lee. I`ll give you that one.
KOBILINSKY: Right. And there are other.
GRACE: I`d like to finish.
KOBILINSKY: Sorry.
GRACE: That are even remotely associated with Casey Anthony`s car. We know there was a dark band on it, indicating the person is dead.
Let`s see, Casey Anthony, alive, Cindy Anthony, alive. Lee Anthony, alive. That only leaves Caylee, doesn`t it, Kobe?
KOBILINSKY: It`s very significant evidence. Number one, we have to prove whose hair it is. And number two, that it is hair that has that banding pattern as a result of decomposition. Yes. You`re right on target with that, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, you`re certainly earning your money, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, and he is on board the Casey Anthony defense team.
I want to go back to the lawyers, Ray Giudice and Doug Burns, but first, I want to find out, to Mark Williams, where is Casey Anthony tonight?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Casey Anthony is back in her old cell block, where she was before she separated from other prisoners at the Orange County Jail.
Of course, she was booked in there probably within the past hour or so. And that`s where she`ll be spending the night until tomorrow`s first appearance.
GRACE: Natisha, you -- Natisha Lance is with us, our producer, is joining us there at the jail. Explain to me the procedure she went through after she was pulled over on the side of the road and arrested today.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: After she was pulled over, Nancy, she was taken to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office. After that, she was brought to the jail where we are right now. She went into the Sally Port when she arrived here at the jail.
There were a few protesters here, as well as some supporters. And tonight she is behind bars, just as Mark William said.
GRACE: Does she have a cell mate? Is she in isolation? What wing is she on?
LANCE: At this point, it seems as if she will be in protective custody once again, as she was last time. So she will be isolated from any other inmates. And we are awaiting her booking photo to come out if it hasn`t already come out and we will see her at her initial appearance tomorrow morning.
GRACE: With me, everyone, exclusively joining us tonight, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Mark Nejame. He is a veteran trial lawyer, and he is defending them in any capacity needed.
Mr. Nejame, do you believe that the family, George and Cindy Anthony, prepared themselves, mentally, emotionally, for this day? Or was it easier for them to believe this day was not going to happen?
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: I think they were as well prepared as any parents could be, that their daughter may be indicted for first-degree murder. It`s something that none of us are prepared fully in life.
There`s no rule book or playbook on this. They knew that it was a probability. We must remember that an indictment is only a charge. A lot of people are talking like there`s already a conviction.
GRACE: It`s true.
NEJAME: There is a charge. And it simply means that there`s been probable cause. And now the state attorney`s office has to take this from start to finish.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, I know that many people believe, I and others, have been hard on tot mom Casey Anthony, but our sympathies are with the family.
I want to go to Richard Grund, the former fiance, tot mom. What is your family`s response to the indictment tonight, sir?
RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: It`s tough. Because we loved Casey, we still do. We love Caylee. You know, I`m just hoping that the seriousness of this will get the community to calm down and everybody to realize that we`re real people.
George and Cindy and Lee, they`re real people. They`re all real people, we`re all real people. And we hurt right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, there is talk that Baez may actually have to step down from taking the case to trial?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`s some talk about that, because, as I understand it, you have to have five years as an attorney at least to be able to defend this kind of a case.
We also hear that Casey Anthony may actually defend herself. This from Jose Baez`s PR firm, saying that she would have access to state funds to get her some investigators if she did so.
GRACE: You know, to Raymond Giudice, Doug Burns, I do not believe that any court in this country would allow a death penalty, Raymond, to go forward per se with council defending themselves.
GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. They don`t want to try the case.
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) half.
GIUDICE: . twice.
GRACE: No, yes, appeal, reverse, back down.
GIUDICE: Right. Right back.
GRACE: And -- you`re dead on.
Doug Burns, as far as having to have a certain degree of experience at trial for a death penalty case, you`re darn right.
BURNS: Right. That`s to be lead counsel, Nancy. So what everybody is saying is that he`ll have to step aside as lead council. But he can continue to be on the case.
GRACE: Yes. He could be second chair.
BURNS: Right. Exactly.
GRACE: But to do a capital case, good lord, you got to have.
BURNS: Absolutely.
GRACE: . many, many trials under your belt and not just as a gofer. You`ve got to be lead council on those cases in order to go forward.
Everyone, recap. Mom Casey Anthony just indicted by a Florida grand jury. Charges, murder one, plus other counts. Tomorrow morning, 8:30 a.m. she is back in court. We will bring you the very latest.
But I want to stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Jordan Haerter, just 19, Sag Harbor, New York, killed in Iraq. Lost his life at a checkpoint saving fellow troops and Iraqi officers.
Awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, Iraqi Campaign Medal. Loved solo flights, paintball, driving a Dodge pickup on the beach. Favorite movie, "Blackhawk Down." Dreamed of being a cop.
Leaves behind parents, Christian and Joan, girlfriend, Nicole.
Jordan Haerter, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern and until then, good night, friends.
END
