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Nancy Grace
Judge Denies Bond for Casey Anthony
Aired October 15, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court on murder one charges after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment -- murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, and of course, lying to police. The case does qualify for the Florida death penalty, death by needle, lethal injection. The district attorney yet to make that announcement. This amid reports new forensic evidence discovered in mom Casey`s car trunk. What is it?
Police using cell phone triangulation to narrow down the exact location mom Casey may have disposed of little Caylee. Even in the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insisting little Caylee is alive, claiming mom Casey will save what really happened for the courtroom. They say they`ll go on with their own search for Caylee. And exclusive, the man mom Casey claimed introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, accused of kidnapping Caylee and then exonerated, is with us live, tonight. Where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to jail for Casey. She faced a judge in Orlando this morning on first degree murder and other charges in the case of her 3-year-old daughter`s disappearance. It took the judge less than a minute to decide on her bond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey was arrested shortly after yesterday`s grand jury indictment, and her father, George Anthony, testified against her before that panel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I don`t get it. As I`m walking, I just get back to where the passenger rear taillight is to her car, she throws open the trunk, she said, Here`s your F-ing cans. I got a little verbal...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the trunk.
GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. I made a report to the Orange County sheriff`s department. Now you`ve got the chance. Why do you have them? Well, I`ve been driving back and forth to Tampa to see Zanny? And I`m, like, Wait a second. You`re supposed working, but now you`re in Tampa. This don`t make no sense to me. And I said, Listen, I`m not going to deal with this right now. But where`s Caylee? What`s going on? You know, I believe I need to know. I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t like the smell?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m being straight and honest.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Anthony disappeared in June, but she wasn`t reported missing until a month later. Originally, her mother told police she was taken by her nanny. Since then, she`s changed her story several times and none of them has panned out with authorities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know stuff`s got to come out. That`s the way it is. I`m not going to hold back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, the tot mom in court just hours ago on charges of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning, Casey Anthony made her first court appearance on murder charges. The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony did not enter a plea, and the judge refused bond during those proceedings, which took about a minute-and-a-half. She`s accused of killing her daughter, even though the little girl`s body hasn`t been found.
GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though George Anthony`s daughter, Casey, is now charged with killing her toddler, the grandfather believes Caylee will be back in his arms.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just yesterday, George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder. But he does not believe his courtroom testimony hurt Casey, saying criminal charges were inevitable.
GEORGE ANTHONY: A few weeks ago, almost day one or day two, we knew what was going to happen. I mean, that`s pretty self-evident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite testifying against her, George asserts that Casey is a good mother who would never harm her child.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And George says he`s clinging to hope that Caylee is OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I still believe in my heart, and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter is still out there, and she is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people that are out there that we feel might have been involved in something -- and again, that`s speculation on my part. Yes, they`re being watched. They might not -- they`re being watched.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on felony charges handed down by a secret grand jury, multiple counts, including murder one. That murder charge not outlining the mode of murder. Police yet to discover the remains of little Caylee.
Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams at WNDB Newsradio. Mark, what`s the latest? What happened in court?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, it was a cut and dried thing, 30 seconds in the courtroom. Basically, Casey Anthony, along with Jose Baez, her attorney, appeared before a judge. All of a sudden, they -- the judge asked her, Are you Casey Anthony? She replied, Yes. He read the charges against her. He said the capital murder charge is non-bailable. And she did not make any plea, and she was hustled back to her jail cell, which is only 12.5 by 8 by 7 feet.
GRACE: OK. Yes or no, mark Williams. Did the defense attorney file a motion for speedy trial out loud in court today?
WILLIAMS: Not that we know of. It was a very, very, very quick session, like I said, only 30 seconds or so.
GRACE: Well, we would have known if he said that in court today? Wasn`t the courtroom open? Was there a motion filed orally in court, to your knowledge?
WILLIAMS: Most of us saw it on video that`s supplied by the Orange County judicial system here.
GRACE: Yes, no. Is there a motion for speedy trial? Did you hear Baez make the motion?
WILLIAMS: I did not hear Baez make that motion.
GRACE: OK. To Nikki Pierce, WDBO. Did you hear him make the motion?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: No, I did not hear him make the motion for a speedy trial.
GRACE: OK, Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Do we know that such a motion has been filed?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, he did not make any motion this morning out loud in court.
GRACE: OK. Well, that really beats all. Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight out of New York, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney out of Atlanta Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer also joining us out of New York. Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Between the hair and the air, this woman could get the chair. I mean, there`s some real evidence in this case the defense team is going to have a hard time refuting. There was hair found in the trunk of her car. That hair allegedly has bands that would show the decomposition due to death. There is air evidence from the body farm in Tennessee. There is some real evidence that there was a death, and that`s probably Caylee.
GRACE: To defense attorneys Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka. Renee, I`ve been hearing on and on, second verse, same as the first, over and over and over, We`ll take this to trial, we`ll put the state to the test. Where`s the motion for speedy trial? I heard Baez stating in a press conference, We want a quick trial. Where`s the motion? You don`t even have to write it down. You can stand in open court in practically every jurisdiction of this country and say, I demand under the Constitution a demand for speedy trial, right now. I want my trial within six months. Put up or shut up. Didn`t happen. Why?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It didn`t happen, Nancy. I don`t think he needs to commit now. But I think he is probably waiting to see if this is going to be a death penalty case strategy, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. In my mind, Alan Ripka, that would make it even more necessary to file the demand right now.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. First of all, he`s got to protect his client, and he should have did it right then and then to start the clock ticking. Furthermore, let`s hope this guy Baez can handle this kind of case. You need experience in capital murder cases, and he may not be the right one for the job.
GRACE: You know, speaking of, it`s my understanding -- back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Mark, he did file today a notice of appearance, which says to me he`s going forward as a trial lawyer on this case.
WILLIAMS: Yes, he is. He is going forward with it. They have, like, 180, 190 days to get the trial under way. But here`s the big deal, is that he is not qualified, according to Florida judicial law, to try this case in court. He has only been an attorney for the past three years, and this is not -- he`s got -- he`s never served as co-counsel in a -- in a case.
GRACE: So Mark Williams, when you say has been practicing law for three years, what has he been doing? What is his trial experience?
WILLIAMS: Well, just this past April, he defended a gentleman in Lake County, which is just outside of Orlando, on a murder charge. He -- the gentleman was eventually convicted, so he lost that case. Also...
GRACE: Well, was he lead counsel? Was he first chair?
WILLIAMS: I couldn`t tell you that, Nancy, because I was not that familiar with the case. But he has had some success. A Kissimmee mayor by the name of George Gant (ph), who`s a doctor, was accused of some, how shall we say this, funny business with some patients. He was exonerated in that. And then he also in 2006...
GRACE: Did he -- hey, Mark, Mark, Mark, did Baez take that to a jury trial?
WILLIAMS: I think that was settled right out of court.
GRACE: OK. Settlement. I`m not impressed. I want to find out how many trials this guy has had because I`m telling you -- I`m not saying he`s a bad lawyer. I`m not saying that at all. Not at all. But I am saying there`s a very big difference, Mark Williams, in settling a case and striking a jury and going to trial on a death penalty case. In fact, Mark Williams, it is such a vast difference that the law in most jurisdictions requires the lawyer to have quite a bit of litigation, courtroom litigation. I`m not talking about depositions, and -- and filling out forms, courtroom experience. You`ve got somebody`s life in your hands.
Speaking of a life in your hands, to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. We understand there may be new blockbuster evidence found related to the car in a plastic bag?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I think -- I think what they`ve got is, they`ve got the bag that the gentleman at the yard threw over the fence, and then one of the detectives, God bless him, went over there that night and retrieved the bag. And they have found body evidence on the outside of the bag, which had pizza leftovers on the inside. And on the outside, there was maggots. And I think your Dr. Kobilinsky would tell you that maggots would not -- I don`t believe feed on pizza. But on the outside of the bag, there were maggots.
GRACE: Do we know anything about fluids from a body, Leonard?
PADILLA: Yes, there were body fluids on the outside of the bag, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that there is an election going on. And I understand that those days are numbered. And I understand that Casey Anthony is public enemy number one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: From day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.
I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten, you know -- she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.
I lost my granddaughter. I don`t even care where Casey was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live today. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on formal grand jury charges, including murder one. That murder count does not explain the state`s theory as to how little Caylee died. As searches resume in the Orlando area, we are waiting to find out whether blockbuster evidence has surfaced, allegedly coming out of the car trunk of mom Casey Anthony.
Very quickly, back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. You state that you have learned that bodily fluids may be on the back of a plastic bag found in the trunk.
PADILLA: That`s correct. The pizza was purchased the AM of the 19th. And instead of being dumped in the dumpster the following day, it was placed in the trunk of the car. The speculation is, it was placed there to mask what was already starting to be an odor in the trunk of the car. So that`s the speculation. But there was definitely body fluids on the outside of the bag.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid member of the defense team for tot mom Casey Anthony. Lawrence Kobilinsky, if bodily fluids were found in the trunk, that should be able to be connected to the deceased.
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, you know, finding bodily -- what we do in serology is we first identify what the fluid is, and then we determine its origin, which involves DNA testing. So the first step is, How do you determine if it is truly bodily fluids or not? I think that`s an issue. As far as blowflies laying eggs, I don`t think you`re going to develop maggots that quickly.
GRACE: I`m asking you only about the fluid. That`s all I`m asking you.
KOBILINSKY: Again, I think finding the amino acids...
GRACE: Koby (ph), you know, I`m very surprised because since you`ve been hired to be the defense consultant on this case, you -- your whole theories regarding forensics have changed.
KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. Absolutely not.
GRACE: You know very well, as I do, that when a body begins to decompose, the body emits fluids and those fluids will have DNA in them.
KOBILINSKY: That is correct. And animals will decompose. They will secrete fluids...
GRACE: What are you talking about? Animals? I`m asking you a point- blank question.
KOBILINSKY: Yes.
GRACE: If a body is decomposing and there are bodily fluids, they should be able to be traced through DNA. That`s a yes/no answer.
KOBILINSKY: It depends how degraded the DNA is.
GRACE: OK. You know, you`re going off into animals and degradation and blowflies. You know what? I`ll be right back with you.
Out to the lines. June in Florida. Hi, June.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Jose Baez, in his news conference on Monday, he said with Casey right by his side how upset she was about her missing child. This woman has cried twice, the first time when she went to jail, and on Monday, when she knew she was going back to jail. I lost my son, and all I did was cry and cry and just totally lost it.
GRACE: You know, June in Florida, for those of us that have been crime victims and/or lost someone very dear to us, this lack of emotion has been unfathomable. What about it Caryn Stark -- Dr. Stark joining us out of New York, psychologist, go ahead.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, the truth of the matter is, everyone keeps looking at her as a mother, and she is much more of a monster. This is what a sociopathic person is like. She cannot feel empathy. That is not in her nature. She doesn`t have the ability, so how could she possibly cry? She can party because she can ignore what`s going on.
GRACE: Let`s go to our special guest joining us tonight. Jeff Hopkins is with us. And according to mom Casey Anthony, Hopkins introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny that stole her child. Mr. Hopkins, thank you for being with us.
JEFF HOPKINS, ALLEGEDLY INTRODUCED CASEY TO BABY-SITTER ZENAIDA: Thank you. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Mr. Hopkins, what did you think when you learned that somehow you had gotten into the middle of a murder investigation?
HOPKINS: Well, my initial reaction there was definitely shock. I still had no clue what was going on until, of course, a few days later, when a detective showed up at my house.
GRACE: When did you first learn you had gotten involved?
HOPKINS: I assume it was the night that Cindy Anthony had called 911 because when the cops were at their house, I received a phone call from Lee Anthony, her brother, telling me that Casey said that she had been missing -- or Caylee had been missing for about 30 days. And she said that she had taken a trip or went on a trip to Jacksonville with Jeff Hopkins. And I, you know, informed them that maybe there was a different one at the time, you know, because it wasn`t me for sure.
GRACE: So that wasn`t you in the car with Casey Anthony?
HOPKINS: No.
GRACE: Did you ever know her? Did you guys work at the same place?
HOPKINS: Well, I did work at Universal. I didn`t work there after the year 2002. I`m not sure when she started, and I know she ended in around 2006. But we never did work together, actually.
GRACE: Did you ever know each other?
HOPKINS: We did know each other.
GRACE: How?
HOPKINS: We actually -- through elementary, middle and high school. We went to the same school here.
GRACE: So you did not know her through Universal? You knew her through going to school with her?
HOPKINS: Through going to school, yes.
GRACE: Did you ever know Zenaida Gonzalez?
HOPKINS: No, I don`t know who that is.
GRACE: Did Zenaida Gonzalez ever baby-sit your children?
HOPKINS: I have no children, Nancy.
GRACE: So her story becomes more and more fantastic. Do you expect that you will be a witness at trial?
HOPKINS: Yes.
GRACE: Why do you think that?
HOPKINS: Because I was told so by the detective.
GRACE: Long story short, after your ordeal with the justice system, what do you believe about little Caylee? Where is she?
HOPKINS: I have no idea where she is. And as far as, you know...
GRACE: When was the last time you actually spoke to Casey Anthony?
HOPKINS: July. I saw her at the Ale House.
GRACE: Everyone, we`ll all be right back. But as we go to break, it is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Tonight, the Woman`s Personal Health Resource. It was founded nine years by an oncology nurse, Barbara, whose mom battled cancer and struggled with finding wigs and everything else she needed during her plight. The Woman`s Personal Resource provides products to help breast cancer patients -- skin care, scarves, turbans, exercise wear, lounge wear, swimsuits, all for mastectomy, lumpectomy, even recent surgery patients. If this battle touches your life, go to Womanspersonalhealth.com, or CNN.com/nancygrace. Together, we can win this battle.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. This search will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now, mom Casey Anthony behind bars on murder one charges. Today she was in court, answering up on the grand jury indictment just handed down yesterday.
Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the Orlando, Florida jail. Tell me about her jail cell and her day today.
LANCE: Her jail cell, Nancy, is an 8 by 10-foot cell. It has plexiglass on one side. All the other walls are concrete, so she doesn`t have too much privacy. She has a toilet. She`s in protective custody once again, just as before. Her day today very limited. She gets one hour of free time to do whatever she wants. And in that hour of time, she is able to use -- take a shower or go into the commissary.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: This is going to be very hard for me to do.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: State attorney, Lawson Lamar, was able to convince at least 12 of the 19 jurors that the 22-year-old mother should be charged with capital murder for allegedly killing her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: George answered all questions directly and honestly, and just did what, I think, no human being could ever be prepared to do.
G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, and it always will be. No matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Casey Anthony, set to be the 17th woman in Florida history against whom the state seeks the death penalty. The state has not made that announcement at this point.
The D.A. has some time to do that, but after screaming about wanting justice in court, Baez, the defense attorney, failed to ask for a motion for speedy trial today. That would ensure that the state had to take this case to trial in just a few months. No building the case over time.
To Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective with Majeski Associates -- Bill, a speedy trial demand can really throw the wrench in the works for the state. If they were planning on developing the evidence some more, oh no, there won`t be any of that. They`ve got to go straight to trial.
BILL MAJESKI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE MAJESKI ASSOCIATE, INC.: Well, this is true, but the thing is, I think the police did an outstanding job on this investigation. They kept a lot of things close to the vest, they had a lot of information very early on, and what they did is they slowly built their case until they were able to go into court and get a sound, solid indictment.
Now from this juncture forward, what the police have to do is they have to refortify the investigation that they`ve already done, and clearly at the top of their list is finding the body. And I think that they`ll eventually do that.
And one of the things -- another thing about the -- not asking for a speedy trial. It`s a good possibility that the defense attorney may be looking to make some kind of a deal to try to take the death penalty off the table.
GRACE: Wise, although the state has not announced for the death penalty.
As we were discussing earlier -- out to Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- so far in the entire Florida history, only 16 women have had the death penalty sought against them.
Alan Ripka, what`s the likelihood that that will happen in this case?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in this particular case, I think the likelihood is very high. I think that a case that has had so much media attention, and when you`re dealing with a little girl in this particular case, I think the state is going to be pressured to go after her, because the public does not like her very much.
GRACE: What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I will agree with that. But I will say one thing. If the state is seeking the death penalty, they`re going to have a lot harder time getting a conviction, Nancy.
GRACE: Renee, I`m sure you`re familiar with the proceedings of a death penalty. And as you know, it`s a bifurcated trial. There is a two- prong trial, which the jury will understand.
There`s the guilt/innocence phase and then if there is a guilty on murder one, with circumstances, then the state proceeds to a death penalty phase. They will have it explained to them that they can find guilty without the death penalty.
But I understand what you`re saying, when death penalty is on the table, all the stakes go up.
Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The people of the state of Florida are outraged. They were outraged when this mother waited 31 days to report missing. And she only reported missing.
GRACE: Well, you heard Ripka blaming it on the media, right?
MOSS: Oh, come on! This was all, all Casey from day one.
GRACE: You know, I noticed, Mark Williams, in court today, there was a completely different attire, a whole look. Mom Casey Anthony looked like a paralegal.
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes. And that started almost yesterday, when she was arrested. She had glasses on, and she had a nice blouse on when she was put in handcuffs. And, yes, she looked like a scholarly individual, right off the bat.
GRACE: So she`s getting a makeover. You know what? Fine. Everybody gets a makeover when they have to go to court. We also learn the truth behind that Mickey Mouse dress from Disney World we thought may be a lead in the case that was discovered by Texas Equusearch.
What is the truth behind that, Nikki Pierce?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, Cindy Anthony appeared on national television this morning and brought Caylee`s dress that was similar to the one that was found and said this is Caylee`s dress. The other one does not belong to Caylee.
GRACE: There is Miss Anthony on the "Today" show. She is holding up little Caylee`s Mickey Mouse dress, so clearly the one that was discovered, a child size 6, is not going to be a lead in this case.
Straight back out to Mark Williams, the theory of new evidence, where are we learning that? Why do we believe that there is new forensic evidence out of the car trunk?
WILLIAMS: Well, apparently the CSI -- the crime scene investigators found this bag, and it apparently contains the bodily fluids of little Caylee, and it was initially found, of course, or was probably in the back end of -- in the trunk area of Casey`s car.
GRACE: To Gina in North Carolina, hi, Gina.
GINA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
GINA: OK, I do have a comment first and then a question.
GRACE: OK.
GINA: My comment is that if we just gave her the benefit of the doubt for one second.
GRACE: OK.
GINA: The child has not been kidnapped, there has been no ran some demand. It`s -- and I think that if anybody in the whole United States, Florida, wherever, did have this baby, with everything going on here, they would have turned that baby in. Nobody would keep that baby with all of this going on.
And my question is, does anybody think that possibly she may have confided in Lee after she got out of jail? He seems to be, you know, very quiet these days, you know, in the back ground.
GRACE: That`s an excellent question, Gina in North Carolina.
Leonard Padilla, what about it? You have seen the family dynamic.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Yes, absolutely, and I`m telling you -- let me throw something in here, you know, talking about the gentleman, Hopkins.
One night, when I was in the residence, and I was talking about this Hopkins having introduced Zenaida to her. Cindy and Lee both jointly and at about the same time said, "oh, that`s another Hopkins. He`s got a boy named Zack."
And the reason this stuck in my mind is because I have a nephew named Zack. And I thought, well, that`s rather strange. All of a sudden we have two Hopkins, same age at the same time involved in the same situation.
I thought that was ludicrous but at the time they just damn near convinced me that there was two Hopkins. And it was Lee and Cindy, and they knew at that time that there was not two Hopkins.
GRACE: You are seeing shots of little Caylee. The Anthonys insisting she is still alive. And they will continue their search for her.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEREDITH VIEIRA, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Have you considered the possibility, as difficult as it may be, that your daughter killed her child? Your grandchild?
CINDY ANTHONY, CINDY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You know, Meredith, I know my daughter, I know my daughter`s relationship with Caylee, and I know that there is no -- nothing in this world that could make me believe that Casey did anything to Caylee.
There has never been any -- any child neglect, child abuse, or anything. This young lady loves her child more than I love Casey. I tell you that right now. And my love for Casey is stronger every day. My love for my granddaughter is stronger every day. And I know that Caylee is alive.
It will be heard out in the courtroom, and people will understand why her behaviors were such, and that`s all I can say right now.
I know that, you know, in my heart that we are going to find Caylee before this trial does make place. And we are hoping for a speedy trial, because yesterday, people were unable to hear the evidence that we have that proves that, you know, the -- just how circumstantial evidence.
The reason -- there`s reasons why there has been no body been found. You know there`s reports that Caylee`s dress was found at the airport. This is Caylee`s dress that was in her closet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Miss Anthony on NBC`s "Today" show. They are insisting little Caylee is still alive, claiming that she may be in Puerto Rico, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, and let me think where else? Also there in Florida.
To Mark Williams with WNDB, on the "Today" show, she referred to evidence that little Caylee is still alive. What evidence is that?
WILLIAMS: She gets -- apparently, the Anthonys still get tips from outsiders and with the Caylee sightings and everything else, you`ve documented that just a couple minutes ago.
She`s even gone on Univision Television here in Orlando, looking for Caylee in Puerto Rico, putting a -- putting the word out, reaching out in that island nation down there, to try and find little Caylee.
But they get these tips, they say, and she says, they`re going to investigate them.
GRACE: I wish they were sharing those tips with the media.
Everyone, quickly, we`re taking your calls live.
To case alert, the search for a missing Michigan woman who`s vanished into thin air. 41-year-old Vernetta Macklin-Jordan last seen September 18th, boarding a bus on the Linwood route, Detroit. Since then, her husband, son, entire family cannot contact her.
Please, take a look at this lovely lady. Her family is waiting. If you have information, call Detroit police, 313-596-2200.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: Don`t paint a bad picture of this family. Emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child, you put faith in them and everything, you know?
I wouldn`t wish this on anyone. This is a tough day for us today. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be. It`s hard. It`s quiet. The house is just too quiet.
Whenever these sightings come through and photos are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter, I get excited and my hopes are up there. And if it`s not, they get to (INAUDIBLE) a little bit.
My focus is always on my granddaughter and always will be. I love my daughter, I love my wife, I love my son.
I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight for her second night behind bars after being charged by a grand jury in felony charges. Murder one being the lead charge. The state carefully not outlining the mode of death alleged in little Caylee Anthony`s death.
To Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, Susan Moss -- Susan Moss, is that unusual for the state not to lay out in the indictment the manner of death?
MOSS: It -- isn`t unusual. As long as they meet a particular level of burden of proof, which is not beyond a reasonable doubt, then they have done their job. Their job only is to get that indictment which they were successful doing.
GRACE: Well, to Renee and Alan -- first to you, Alan, I don`t find it unusual at all, because when a body has been destroyed, very often, you don`t know the cause of death. The state doesn`t necessarily have to prove the cause of death.
RIPKA: That`s right, Nancy. In fact, they can use circumstantial evidence, they may have an admission from a defendant, witnesses, things like that, that may help them out. But it`s not an element of the crime to prove exactly how somebody was murdered.
GRACE: Renee, agree or disagree?
ROCKWELL: I agree with that. But the thing that I do find interesting -- and I`m looking at the indictment -- that the state set out a 31-day period within which they say that she committed a pre-meditated murder.
GRACE: Right.
ROCKWELL: It`s just going to be interesting to me, Nancy, how it lays out. It`s still a little early for us to discuss.
GRACE: Well, Renee, again, that is not unusual. I have tried, myself, many, many cases, particularly cases involving children that do not go by calendar days, the way you and I do, where you give a time range as to the time of the offense. That`s not unusual at all.
Why do you say that`s unusual?
ROCKWELL: Well, it`s unusual because at some point they`re going to have to put it up and say, this is our theory, this is what she did.
GRACE: But they don`t ever have to prove a specific date. That`s not required under law.
ROCKWELL: But they`re going to have to say that she did something on some particular day. And that`s my theory.
GRACE: No. They do not have to state a particular day.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, when they go to trial, and try her for potentially the death penalty, they are going to have to have some theories.
GRACE: They do not have to name a particular day. That is not the law.
ROCKWELL: I`m not talking the day.
GRACE: Alan Ripka, agree -- that`s what we`re talking about, the day.
ROCKWELL: OK.
RIPKA: Nancy, I agree with you. They do not have to name a date. In fact, in this particular case, they were well aware of when they believed the child was killed.
GRACE: They are.
RIPKA: In fact, they want a period of time and that`s why they set out what they did and that`s what they intend to prove. But I agree with you, they do not have to give a particular date and time.
GRACE: But in a sense, Susan Moss, I agree with the gist, not the technicalities, of what Rockwell is saying. The gist is, when you go to a jury, you better have a theory, a definite theory, about what you believe happened.
ROCKWELL: You can`t just say the child died.
GRACE: Susan?
MOSS: Absolutely. The jury wants to hear a theory, they want to hear a story, and they want to understand why and when this happened. You don`t have to point to a particular day and time, but you have to make it reasonable and believable.
GRACE: We also learned that the possibility of a get-away attempt yesterday was not correct. In fact, seemingly -- tell me if I`m right, Nikki Piece with WDBO -- Cindy and Kelly Anthony were actually just trying to avoid being photographed or videoed turning themselves in?
PIERCE: As I understand.
GRACE: Turn in?
PIERCE: Yes, I understand there was a bit of a chase between local news outlet and Casey and Cindy in Cindy`s car. And so they pulled a little bit of a switcharoo and put her in the bail bondsman`s car under an overpass and a no-fly zone.
GRACE: Well, you know what?
PIERCE: . so the helicopters couldn`t see.
GRACE: What that got them was the allegations that they were trying a get-away attempt. That didn`t help anything.
We are taking your calls, to Theresa in Colorado. Hi, Theresa.
THERESA, COLORADO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, on a positive note, and there doesn`t seem to be many, if someone had little Caylee, could they drop her off at any fire station and avoid prosecution? Even in Puerto Rico?
GRACE: That`s a toughie. What about it, Susan Moss?
MOSS: No. This is not a safe-haven type of scenario. But they should do it, anyway. I mean, everyone, if there is a chance of this little girl is alive, everyone wants to see her safe.
GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, the caller was correct. The only times we have ever seen any seen any emotion whatsoever from tot mom Casey Anthony is when she was in court getting a dressing down by about being a neglectful mom, and when the grand jury is meeting, at that moment, to indict her on murder one.
What does that say to you? This has been going on for months now.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s the narcissistic part of her personality, Nancy. Anybody who was just like this woman will not be crying over her daughter. She`s crying over herself. So you will see her in court starting to be upset because she`s going to be in trouble.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, criminal justice, and a paid member of the Casey Anthony defense team, what will your role be?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I think I`m there to help the defense with the analysis of the science to advice.
GRACE: When will you see the evidence?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I -- that`s not clear at this point. But I certainly will be there to look at all the different types of science and determine whether it is valid and reliable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I wish this person or persons who had her would call up and say, CNN, I have this little girl. I believe she`s the little girl who`s missing from Orlando, Florida.
Do you know what kind of story that would be?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony in court today.
Back to Natisha Lance standing by at the jail in Orlando, what was the purpose of her being in court this morning?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it was her initial appearance, Nancy. So that was the time where hen she would be read the charges that against her and she would be able to reply if she understood these charges or not.
GRACE: And she said?
LANCE: She said yes.
GRACE: Were -- was each charge read out loud?
LANCE: Yes, they were.
GRACE: All seven of them?
LANCE: All seven charges were read out loud.
GRACE: Who read them? Who read them?
LANCE: The judge presiding over the case read them. Casey actually appeared from the jail here. They did not transport her to the court. She appeared over video appearance with her attorney as well as an associate of her attorney who has not been named at this time.
But as they left the courtroom, they did not have anything to say.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army First Lieutenant Thomas Brown, 26, Burke, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, and Combat Infantry badge.
A George Mason University grad. Dreamed of making a difference. And the family trip to the Caribbean. He told relatives, if he lost his life, he wanted donations to go to St. Jude`s Children`s Hospital instead of family.
Love the Red Sox, rescuing animals. His latest, a cat named Batman. Leaves behind grieving mom Carol, twin the brother Timothy, a Border Patrol agent.
Thomas Brown, American hero.
I want to thank you to all our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a big thanks to my old court reporter Donna Keeble who saw our show and has donated money to Texas Equusearch and their search for little Caylee.
I hope others join her.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
