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Who Won Final Presidential Debate?; Voting Early
Aired October 16, 2008 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Coming at you now: the final debate over, early voting getting revved up. Long lines tell the story. Where? How many? We ask.
Do you think this election will be fair? What you say and what we are finding out about voter irregularities. We are joined Drew Griffin with our Special Investigations Unit.
Also, who is...
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe the plumber.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That includes you, Joe.
MCCAIN: Joe the plumber.
OBAMA: Joe the plumber.
SANCHEZ: Here he is after the debate.
JOE WURZELBACHER, PLUMBER: McCain, you know, he was a real American hero. This man went to war for us, was a prisoner of war.
SANCHEZ: One voter's opinion.
MCCAIN: If you wanted to run against George Bush you should have run against him four years ago.
OBAMA: We disagree without being disagreeable.
SANCHEZ: Who won? The polls are out, and we have got them.
And we have Jade (ph) and Maru (ph), right, left, and definitely not the grandfather's TV pundits.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With immigrants, like they were saying, they play a vital role in the economy.
SANCHEZ: But, to be fair, John McCain did not oppose that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Of course.
SANCHEZ: A conversation that may surprise you. Young Hispanics join the league of first-time voters to talk Obama, McCain and immigration.
The only show connected to you with immediate reaction from you. Like no place else, your newscast, this newscast, begins now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
I know. We have got an hour until the Dow closes, so what we always do is, we're going to be checking on that throughout the course of this hour. If anything changes or anything happens dramatic, we will let you know. Right now, it is flat.
Here is what we will start with, though, early voting all over the country.
As a matter of fact, as we speak, in 17 states, after that final debate ended last night, they have started early voting. There is a map that we put together for you -- 31 states, all those light blue ones you see right there, will eventually have early voting before this election.
Right now, people are early voting in 17. The number of places and the number of people voting right now in the United States has already tripled. Talk about demand.
Let's go the some video, if we possibly can. We have got some video that is coming in from Tennessee. Look at this line. This was in Tennessee just yesterday. When people found out that they could start the early voting there, they showed up in droves. And, yes, they say they are willing to wait, reasons for that to be described later.
We are going to be talking to some public officials from several states. Let's go to Ohio now. These are people who actually were camping out because they were so excited about the possibility of voting in this election. They were camping out to be first or at least at the top of the line when they would be able to do it.
And are you interested in this? You know, it is a question we have been talking about all night -- day long, because it is not really just about early voting. There's also something else involved in this equation. Are people early voting because there is a trust factor that is missing in the elections of the United States?
We asked, will this election be fair? And these are the kinds of results we have been getting. Robert, let's go over to our Twitter board, if we possibly can.
Prem Yogini says to us: "I early voted here in Flagstaff. I hope convenience of early voting doesn't mean that my vote gets conveniently lost. Trust?" -- with a question mark.
Let's bring in the secretary of state of Ohio. Her name is Jennifer Brunner. And she is good enough to join us now live. First of all, tell us about early voting. We have been reading in several reports that the -- that there is a veritable surge in many of the states. A lot of people want to go out there and vote, that it has tripled. True?
JENNIFER BRUNNER, OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE: True.
We think, in Ohio, that, by the time we reach Election Day, about a quarter of our voters will have already voted.
SANCHEZ: What do you think of this sentiment that I just read from one of the Tweets that I check on while we do this newscast? We will put it up again as we discuss this. I know in your state in particular, there is an issue of trust that you have to deal with from the previous election. How is that going?
BRUNNER: It is going well, because our boards of elections have been well prepared. We have worked and provided them instructions and directives. They have done exceptional planning work on the security of the transport of the voting machines and of the ballots as well as even the security at the board of elections.
We do hear questions from voters such as, if I vote absentee, will that only be counted if it is a close election? And we say, absolutely not. Those will be the first votes that are counted on election night. And any ballots that are voted now are secured, kept under lock and key. In the larger counties, there's 24-hour surveillance cameras. We don't want people to worry. We want people to be able to vote.
This year, they have all kinds of choices of voting paper or machines, early or on Election Day. And we think that bests serves our voters.
SANCHEZ: Let's keep you on, Secretary Brunner. And let's bring in our Tennessee election coordinator as well. That is another state where they have been having this. As we split the screen, we will have this conversation.
You heard what she said, that she has seen a surge there in Ohio. Same thing in Tennessee?
BROOK THOMPSON, TENNESSEE COORDINATOR OF ELECTIONS: Same thing here in Tennessee.
We began early voting for this cycle yesterday, had over 108,000 people vote, which is one of the biggest days we have ever had in our early voting, about a 46 percent increase over the first day in 2004.
SANCHEZ: Who is voting, by the way? I know you can't tell us who is winning, but you can tell us, demographically, what you are seeing, can you not?
THOMPSON: We saw a big surge in the big cities. About a third of the votes cast yesterday were cast in the counties for Nashville and Memphis. In the last election, only about 25 percent of the votes came from those two counties, but yesterday it was about a third.
SANCHEZ: Are they African-American? Are they Hispanic? Are they old? Are they young? Can you tell us?
THOMPSON: It is hard to tell this early in the process, but it is clear that the votes seem to be coming from the urban areas at this point.
SANCHEZ: Secretary Brunner, let me ask you this question. I understand that there is a Supreme Court challenge that's taking place in your state, and this really goes to the issue of where people -- how hard they have to work to be able to vote. What is going on with this and where do you stand on this decision?
BRUNNER: At the last minute, there was a challenge to the database that the state keeps of registered voters and whether or not certain data matched what was in the databases in the Social Security Administration and in our state Bureau of Motor Vehicles.
A federal judge ordered us to revise our database and provide lists to each board of elections, and we were very concerned that that would lead to challenges, as well as forcing people into provisional voting. We were asked to do this without being able to put on evidence. And when we were denied the right to put on evidence, then the higher court said that we should have put on evidence.
This just doesn't seem to make sense to us, so we have appealed that to the Supreme Court, because we think we deserve a fair shot in court, and we are looking to protect the security of our voting system. And changing those rolls at the last minute is going to cause problems for voters.
SANCHEZ: Let me get a couple of quick answers from both of you, then, on this, because this is what people who are watching us right now really want to know. I asked this question today on MySpace and on Facebook and on Twitter and beyond. And everyone seems to still have a concern that because of what has happened in the last couple of elections that not everything is secure, that it is maybe not as trustworthy as it should be.
What would you say to these viewers and these Americans who are hearing you now, as people who are in charge of your specific states?
I will start with you, Ms. Brunner?
BRUNNER: In Ohio, we have checks and balances.
You hear about voter fraud, but what they are doing is blowing this to include things that are not included. We have got things such as voter registration fraud and that dealing with situations that people are talking about with ACORN, but voter registration fraud is generally caught by election officials because of all of the notices, the checks and balances. And very seldom does it lead to illegal voting.
I think what most voters are concerned about is illegal voting. And in Ohio, between 2002 and the end of 2006, we had only four individual cases out of nearly eight million registered voters.
SANCHEZ: What about, though -- Mr. Thompson, let me go over to you. What about the idea that just because I am putting it in the computer, what happens after I put my ballot in there? What is to say that somebody can't take those ballots and make sure that they end up the way he or she wants them to end up?
THOMPSON: Well, I mean, we have a system in Tennessee where we have Republicans and Democrats on our county election commissions. They are involved in the setting up of the voting machines and the testing of the voting machines and the certifying of the results.
And so we have both parties watching over each other's shoulders every step of the way. We have processes and procedures in place to insure that the voting machines are tested and that the results that we get are an accurate reflection of what the people want.
SANCHEZ: Well, we're going to be checking back with both of you over the next several weeks. I'm sure you are both going to be extremely busy as you follow this process, because there's certain a lot to do. And we were surprised today when we looked at the numbers just jumping off the screen of people who were taking advantage of early voting at this time.
My thanks to both of you, Jennifer Brunner and Brook Thompson from Ohio and Tennessee, respectively.
By the way, we're going to be checking in something else in just a little bit. Speaking of elections, what are the irregularities? I am going to throw some terms out for you right now, ACORN. You know about that one. Do you know about caging? Do you know about purging? These are the things that we are going to be committed to checking for you over the next several weeks, as we go all of the way down to the election. And that is what we are going to be doing in our next segment.
But also, later, ahead, a discussion with young Hispanics about the effect of the immigration policies in the United States. It is a conversation that may surprise you. Here is a taste.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When immigrants, like they were saying, they play a vital role in our economy.
SANCHEZ: But, to be fair, John McCain did not oppose that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Of course, yes.
SANCHEZ: He was the one saying let's give the immigrants...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly. And he's definitely -- he did play a huge role in the DREAM Act, but now it seems like he has kind of set that aside.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Why is John McCain being blamed for something that he had very little to do with, in fact, he was trying to help, not hurt? Not fair, but reality. We will pick it up.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters at CNN.
A lot of comments and a lot of questions that are coming in from you. And particularly people are talking about some of the election regularities -- irregularities -- pardon me -- post-final debate last night.
In that debate, there were questions raised about ACORN. This is Barack Obama's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: With respect to ACORN, ACORN is a community organization. Apparently what they have done is they were paying people to go out and register folks, and apparently some of the people who were out there didn't really register people, they just filled out a bunch of names.
It had nothing to do with us. We were not involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. We have got Drew Griffin from our SIU unit. He's over here to my right. We have got Josh Levs working with us as well. He has been checking into all of these for the last couple days.
Gentlemen, we begin with ACORN. Where do we stand with ACORN right now? I know you have been looking into it, Drew.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: ACORN under investigation by local authorities all across the country for voter registration fraud, not voter fraud, voter registration fraud.
SANCHEZ: And the difference is, it is one thing to be registered. It doesn't mean that they're going to vote.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: Right.
Right now, what ACORN is guilty of is clogging the system in a lot of county election boards, who are trying to weed out the bad from the good voter registration applications.
What developed this afternoon is that the FBI is now looking into it, not an investigation, but looking into the fact that maybe all these individual frauds add up to something bigger.
SANCHEZ: Can this end up -- and as horrible as it is, and people should be prosecuted for this. There's no doubt, because people were cheating the system. Being paid to get names on a list, names of people that didn't exist, as bad as that is, what is the probability that those people named Mickey Mouse or named after the quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys would actually fraudulently vote?
GRIFFIN: Well, Mickey Mouse or Tony Romo?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Nil.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRIFFIN: John Q. Public who died last year, I don't know. Rick, I just don't know. Voter registration is a gateway to voter fraud. Now, some of it has happened in the past, not by huge margins, but what it does...
SANCHEZ: Yes. But in a tight election, right, right.
GRIFFIN: In a tight election, in an extremely partisan environment, where you have a very left-leaning group that has endorsed Barack Obama, that supporters wear Barack Obama T-shirts, it opens up the door for Republicans to speculate this is a much bigger deal. It's probably not, but...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And that he represented once as a lawyer, right?
GRIFFIN: I mean, it is fair to say what Barack Obama said last night, that the Obama campaign has nothing to do with this current registration drive with ACORN.
SANCHEZ: OK.
GRIFFIN: And what he should have also pointed out is, the Obama campaign has registered thousands and thousands, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands -- I don't know their exact numbers -- of registrations, no problems at all, no problems. ACORN has a problem.
SANCHEZ: This is not the only thing. There is also -- and there's discussions out there about the voter suppression as well, not just voter fraud. There's conversations about something called purging, about something called voter caging, about foreclosure and voting.
Let's start with the purging.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Josh Levs, what have you got on that?
LEVS: Yes. We will talk about it, because one thing that is happening here is a lot of people are talking about ACORN, but that is also a gateway to a larger conversation about what is wrong with the election and what could go wrong? You want to start with the purging? Is that where you want to go?
SANCHEZ: Let's go purging.
LEVS: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: We will get through them first. I know there is not a lot of information out there yet.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVS: But this matters. The truth is, you're going to hear these terms a lot in the remaining days before the election. A lot of people are concerned this could be happening.
Purging is something that is happening, according to the reports that are out there. What happened is, last week, "The New York Times" had this huge story saying, you know what, in six swing states, you have got thousands of people, legitimate voters, who are being purged from the rolls, who should be allowed to vote.
But the trick here is that states are supposed to do this. You are supposed to remove some names from lists. As Drew was just saying, some people die. They should not be on the list anymore. If you are going to clean up the list, you have to take some names off.
But what "The New York Times" found is that, by mistake, a lot of states are removing legitimate names. Now, all these states are saying, no, that is not happening. "The Times" stands by its story.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVS: But you are hearing a lot people say names of legitimate voters are being removed that could show up on Election Day and not be allowed in.
SANCHEZ: Let's go over here. Let's to my Twitter board. I know we have got a brand-new keyboard. I'm trying to see if I can work it. Thanks, Josh, for getting this thing in here.
But look at all these people. These people have all been talking today and asking questions about election irregularities, about what is going on in their communities, about what they are concerned about. They have got some serious questions. Many of them are asking me about this voter caging thing.
LEVS: Caging.
SANCHEZ: They say, my grandmother in Florida or in Ohio got a letter from the Republicans or the Democrats saying that she is a -- what is that? Early ballot or...
LEVS: It almost doesn't matter. When it comes to caging, it doesn't really matter what the letter says.
SANCHEZ: I had a feeling. You could tell from the way I was describing it.
LEVS: It doesn't matter.
SANCHEZ: What are they trying to do? They're trying to get your information?
LEVS: Well, yes, I don't know that there is a -- but what caging is, is basically they are sending a ton of letters to a ton of people marked do not forward. And the thinking is that some of them get sent back because the person is not listed at that address, they can then take that information and use it to challenge the voters.
The problem with doing that is, what if it is just someone who is overseas, someone who is on military service, someone who lost a home because they're incredibly poor, someone -- a student who is listed at that address, no longer lives there, or their parents live there?
The letter being sent back does not automatically mean the person should not be allowed to vote. So, a lot of people are very concerned that there's this active effort to target certain communities...
SANCHEZ: Collect information.
LEVS: ... use this returned mail to then challenge their right to vote. And so there's actually a lot of legal efforts going on, on state levels to say, let's not allow that to happen at all.
SANCHEZ: Purging, caging, ACORN, all of this going on. We will be checking on all of it. And we didn't even get through half the list. There's more that we can talk about tomorrow.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let's keep doing this, because I think it is important for people to know this kind of stuff.
And our thanks to you for all your questions and all your responses as well.
By the way, is Barack Obama's tax plan good for Joe the plumber, I mean, really? What is Joe the plumber's balance sheet? How exactly would it work out? We are going to find out. We have got somebody who is going to actually going to draw out the balance sheet for you and find out what Joe the plumber has to make and how much he has to lose in depreciations, et cetera, et cetera, for Barack Obama's plan to either, A, help him or, B, hurt him.
Also, what do immigrants say about illegal immigrants? It is an interesting conversation, one you're going to want to hear. Stay with us. We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: What happens when you get a bunch of Hispanic Americans together, including me, by the way, to talk about the immigration controversy? Part of what you get is not people who agree with each other, like many other Americans.
Here is a taste.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I'm not saying, don't help them. I am just saying, don't give them a crutch. Don't give them -- don't make them have to learn English through a bilingual program. Maybe help them when they first get over, but, once they get going, let them be in class with everybody else.
Don't give them a special bilingual education program that sometimes lasts for four, five, six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The problem of bilingual education just part of the discussion. We are going to be getting into all of it when we come back.
Stay with us. That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let's go to MySpace, if we can. Welcome back.
Robert, let's go to Tom Robinson's (ph) comment he sent in just a while ago. He says: "I think it is going to be fair, as fair as it always has been, which that doesn't say much, but it is all we have to go with. So, let's hope for the best. The important thing is to get out to vote. Don't put your head in the sand. Win or lose, your vote counts."
All right. Here is a conversation now about who looked more presidential in this debate last night. I want to show you two things. I think, when most people talk about presidential, they think to maybe earlier years. They specifically in the case of Ronald Reagan.
I want to show you Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter in their debate. This is 1980. Ronald Reagan, by the way, was 69 years old in this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY CARTER, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are the kind of elements of a national health insurance important to the American people. Governor Reagan, again, typically, is against such a proposal.
RONALD REAGAN, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Governor, there you go again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right.
I want to show you another one now. This is also from last night's debate. This is actually the very end of the debate, interestingly enough. It is a shot just as Barack Obama and John McCain go to shake hands. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHIEFFER, MODERATOR: Good night, everyone.
(APPLAUSE)
MCCAIN: Good job. Good job. Good job.
OBAMA: Nice job, John, as always. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right.
Let's take you through some of the polls now from last night, as we watch this again. Let's put those up for you, if we possibly can. And you will see that the question was asked, who is the stronger leader, seemingly most presidential? It's interesting to look at that. It is Obama 56, McCain 39.
And, when we come back, we are going to be joined by Jade (ph) and Maru (ph), Jade Mori (ph) and Maru Gonzales (ph), who, as we have aforementioned, are not your granddad's TV pundits.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: My old buddy Joe, Joe the plumber.
OBAMA: I am happy to talk to you, Joe.
MCCAIN: People like Joe the Plumber. Joe, I want to tell you. Hey, Joe, you're rich.
OBAMA: That includes you, Joe.
MCCAIN: I want, Joe, you to do the job.
OBAMA: The conversation I had with Joe the Plumber...
MCCAIN: What Joe wanted to do --Joe was trying to realize the American dream. What you want to do to Joe the plumber -- We're going to take Joe's money -- Joe, you are rich. Congratulations.
OBAMA: Tax cuts to Joe the Plumber.
MCCAIN: Small business people like Joe the plumber.
OBAMA: Joe, if you want to do the right thing...
MCCAIN: I want Joe the plumber to spread that wealth around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's talk about Joe the Plumber, since it seems everybody else was last night at the debate.
And the question is, is he going to be taxed under the Obama plan? Well, I guess it depends on what you mean how much he makes. You see, when you do a balance sheet, there's a whole lot of stuff that you have to take off, depreciation, operating costs, what you pay your employees.
So, we decided to try and figure this out for you. So, we asked Sal Khan, our favorite economist, to put it down on paper. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAL KHAN, KHAN CAPITAL MANAGEMENT: An income statement tells us what happens to a business, in this case, a fictional Joe's Plumbing, over a certain period of time, in this case 2010.
Revenues are what the customers pay Joe and his junior plumbers for fixing their pipes, in this case, $1 million. Below that on the income statement, we have all of the expenses. And I have it in red, because expenses are bad, salaries for Joe's 10 plumbers, the supplies, the tools and the pipes that they have to use in that year, the rent on the offices and advertising to let everyone know that Joe and his plumbers are the best ones in town.
When you subtract all of that out from the million, you're left with $300,000. But Joe had a loan to pay for his business. The interest on the loan is $50,000 a year. And when all is said and done, before paying taxes, pretax, Joe is left with $250,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And that is what he would be taxed on.
By the way, how do the American people see this debate, the question about Joe the plumber and et al?
Here is the debate poll that we registered here at CNN. And the question is, who did the best job in the debate?
Obama, 58 percent; John McCain 31 percent -- which surprised a lot of folks who watched it, because they thought, in fact, Barack Obama was not as aggressive as John McCain. Let's get into that now.
Joining us now, Jade Morey and Maru Gonzalez.
Thanks to both of you for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: All right. When you guys come here, what we like to do is show video and then possibly try and react to it.
Here's what we have. This is the argument about Bill Ayers. We're going to play that. We're going to let you guys see who came out the best in this argument. And then we'll talk about it.
Let's roll that, Roger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: While you were on the board of the Woods Foundation, you and Mr. Ayers together, you sent $230,000 to ACORN. So -- and you launched your political campaign in Mr. Ayers' living room.
OBAMA: That's absolutely not true.
MCCAIN: And facts are facts and records are records.
OBAMA: And that's not the facts.
MCCAIN: And it's not the fact -- it's not the fact that Senator Obama chooses to associate with a guy who, in 2001, said that he wished he had bombed more. And he had a long association with him. It's the fact that all of the details need to be known about Senator Obama's relationship with them and with ACORN. And the American people will make a judgment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Jade, he came out last night hammering Barack Obama on just about everything that he could.
A good strategy?
Did it work?
JADE MOREY, MCCAIN SUPPORTER: Well, I think it's important to point out your past associations. I mean this is -- it's like hiring someone for a job. This is the biggest job in the world, you know. It's very important that we look into the past of these guys. You know, if they're associating with radicals who are terrorists, I mean, yes, I think it's important to examine that.
SANCHEZ: Did Obama deflect or explain properly? Maru?
MARU GONZALEZ, OBAMA SUPPORTER: Oh, I think he absolutely explained properly. And, look, Barack Obama could have brought up the Keating Five. He could have brought up Todd Palin's association with the Alaska Independence Party. But instead, he chose to focus on issues that matter to the American people, because, at the end of the day, the Joe the plumbers of the world are losing their jobs. They're losing their homes. They're paying more for health care. They're paying more for gas. Those are the issues that matter, not Bill Ayers.
SANCHEZ: Here now is John McCain deflecting. And he's sick and tired, it seems, of having Barack Obama compare him to George Bush. Here's how he responds.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That was a pretty tough response -- terse, tough, in his place. And it kind of put Obama backing up a little bit, wouldn't you say?
GONZALEZ: Right. I mean -- I mean, I think it's a cute line. But he may say that he's not George W. Bush, but he sure votes like George W. Bush. He voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time. He voted with him four of five of his budget plans.
So while he may like to use those cute little lines, the reality is, if you look at the record, he is very much like George W. Bush. And if we vote for John McCain, it's going to be four more years of the past eight.
SANCHEZ: Jade, it looked like he had that line in his head and he couldn't wait to release it and he finally did.
MOREY: I think he should have been saying things like that a long time ago, because it is true. He's not George W. Bush. He's not always stood exactly with George W. Bush.
He is coming out with new plans of his own. And he's shown that he's been the maverick in the past. I know everybody hates when he uses that term so much, but if you know John McCain and you've paid attention to him at all, you know, that he works with both parties and you know that...
SANCHEZ: But it's interesting that you say that, because what happened last night was really a shift from what had been going on in the campaign. This is the first debate where John McCain actually kind of, as they say, got in Obama's face, the first he got aggressive. Yet his campaign and his ads have been, according to media analysts, very aggressive.
Here's Obama saying to McCain what he thought he'd been doing with his ads. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Senator McCain's own campaign said publicly last week that if we keep on talking about the economic crisis, we lose, so we need to change the subject.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now, there he is kind of getting into his face and doing the same thing he did to him with the "I'm not Bush" line. You know, he's basically saying, your campaign has been a negative campaign. Is he right to bring that out?
MOREY: It's funny that he was talking about the economic crisis there, because for several weeks, he stayed back and didn't make any statements at all and didn't take a stand while, you know, Senator McCain went to D.C. and got his hands dirty. And he wanted to work with everybody and figure out a solution. He didn't stand back and then see what the safe bet would -- the safe route would be to take. No, he jumped right in there. That's what Senator McCain has always done. And that's what we need right now.
SANCHEZ: Who has been most negative?
And who do you perceive -- I know who you're going to perceive, because you're for Barack Obama, just like you're for John McCain.
But can you make an argument that the American people can look at this campaign and think one guy has been more negative than the other?
GONZALEZ: Oh, absolutely. I mean when you have Karl Rove saying that John McCain has crossed the line, that -- I mean that means John McCain has crossed the line. It's not just the liberal media. It's conservative commentators coming out time after time after time saying that John McCain has been too negative. You had Michelle Laxalt, a conservative commentator, the other day saying, you know, if this is the way that the McCain campaign is going to play, the Republicans don't deserve to win. Bill Kristol said McCain's campaign should be fired.
SANCHEZ: Bill Kristol?
GONZALEZ: That's not -- Bill Kristol said this, so it's not just the liberal media. It's Karl Rove, it's Michelle Laxalt, it's Christopher Buckley...
SANCHEZ: We got the picture.
GONZALEZ: The list goes on and on.
SANCHEZ: As a matter of fact, we showed that list just yesterday.
Here's what else is important in these debates. It's not just what you say, it's how you appear. It's all the other things -- the intangibles, they call them. Reagan had them. Nixon didn't.
Which of these two candidates had that going for him last night? We'll talk about that and show it to you, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I'm Rick Sanchez and this is the Jade and Maru segment, when they join us -- one from the left, one from the right -- to tell us who they think won the debate and what they think is going on with this particular campaign.
Let's start with the debate last night. I want to show you a piece of video. This is what our viewers called the McCain eye roll and loud inhale.
Let's listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Here are the facts. There was a bill that was put forward.
There have not been prosecutions.
And what I have...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. That was the eye roll. A lot of people were commenting last night, as they saw that, that he probably should not have gone there, that he should have tried to be as composed as he possibly can.
Is that a mistake for him to do that, Jade?
MOREY: Some people think it is, but I think it's just Senator McCain. I mean he's always been out there showing you who he really is. That's his honest response. He's not hiding anything. He's not trying to be the best, you know, speech maker out there. He's not trying to be standing (INAUDIBLE). He's Senator McCain. He's the military guy. He's going to be honest with you. He's going to showing you his true reactions.
SANCHEZ: Let me tell you what folks over here on Twitter and on MySpace have been telling me about Barack Obama. They thought that the smile may have been a condescending smile, that kind of like that smirk thing that he was doing. I think we've got some shots of it. Let's take a listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: And the point is that we become energy independent. That is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country and may be destroying the fabric of democracy -- the same front outfit and organization that your campaign...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He's smiling. He's looking away. He's looking down and he's smiling. Your comment, Maru?
GONZALEZ: Oh, you know, I don't think it's a big deal. I think, you know, sometimes some of the things that John McCain thinks -- John McCain says warrant a smile.
Going back to John McCain, though, with the eye rolls, with the loud sighs, you know, Jade says that that's John McCain, that's just who John McCain is. But when John McCain is meeting with -- with world leaders and he doesn't agree some of his -- with some of their platforms, I don't think eye rolls or sighs are really going to help.
SANCHEZ: Hey, do you have -- let's do this. Let's show the -- this clip at the end where McCain gets extremely upset and seems to almost act sarcastic toward Barack Obama. And let's just react to that one. Let's go ahead and watch that, if we can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The centerpiece of Senator McCain's education policy is to increase the voucher program in D.C. by 2,000 slots. That leaves all of you who live in the other 50 states without an education reform policy from Senator McCain.
So, if we are going to be serious about this issue, we've got to have a president who is going to tackle it head-on. And that's what I intend to do as president.
BOB SCHIEFFER, MODERATOR, CBS NEWS: All right...
MCCAIN: Because there's not enough vouchers, therefore we shouldn't do it, even though it's working. I got it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now some people would call that as being sarcastic, that he should have gone after it maybe a little more directly.
Do you agree?
MOREY: Well, if I hear someone trying to mislead me or lie about my policies, I'd probably react a little sarcastically, too.
SANCHEZ: So you think his sarcasm was correct and properly chosen. You?
GONZALEZ: Well, I mean, I think he's angry and he's frustrated. And, you know, I don't blame him. He's behind in states like Virginia. He's behind in states like North Carolina. But, at the end of the day, I don't think the loud sighs and the eye rolls have done anything to further his candidacy.
SANCHEZ: Was either one of them last night -- and that's why I wanted to show that Reagan/Carter thing a little while ago -- was either one of them last night Reaganesque?
Were they either -- was either one of them Reaganesque? Was your guy?
GONZALEZ: Reaganesque in the sense that he's a great communicator?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GONZALEZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. He looked presidential. You know, I even hear the Republicans say that on style, Barack Obama won overwhelmingly.
SANCHEZ: John McCain, Reaganesque?
MOREY: Sorry, John McCain is far more Reaganesque. I mean I could never equate Reagan's policies with socialism like I can Barack Obama.
GONZALEZ: (INAUDIBLE)...
MOREY: I mean come on.
SANCHEZ: You guys, we'll leave it at that before you guys argue some more. Interesting points. You guys are smart. That's great. Enjoyed the discussion.
Hispanic voters -- what do they think of John McCain and Barack Obama? And do they blame John McCain for the Hispanic immigration crisis or controversy in this country?
We'll talk about that and also our fix -- the headliners today, Ellen and Colbert. You'll like that.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: What you find when you sit down with a group of Hispanic-Americans is that they are not monolithic -- not even on the question of immigration -- not by a long shot. There are some things that we agree on. There are some things we don't agree on, as is the case with this edition of League of First Time Voters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Were you hurt by some of the very strident conversations about immigration in this country, as a Hispanic- American?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was.
SANCHEZ: Can anybody else pick that up over here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it make me angry? Yes, it made me angry. Did I understand where they were coming from and the points that they were making? Yes.
MONICA: I think that was a scapegoat, a diversion from real issues that were happening in this country, such as the economy. So -- and what was said, it really -- it didn't bother me at all.
SANCHEZ: Raise your hand if you think that hurts John McCain?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's hurting him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You think it's hurting him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: And as a Republican, you believe that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You, Monica?
MONICA: With immigrants, like they were saying, they play a vital role in our economy.
SANCHEZ: But to be fair, John McCain did not propose that.
MONICA: Right. Of course. Yes.
SANCHEZ: He was the one saying let's give the immigrants
MONICA: Exactly. And he's definitely -- he did play a key rule of law in The DREAM Act. From there, it's just to decide whether they're going to be helped or whether they're just going to be stuck here and have to just fend for themselves.
SANCHEZ: So you say don't give them anything for free, but if they can prove themselves -- take all the tests, pay all the fines, then we should give them a path to citizenship?
MONICA: Right. But now it's hard.
SANCHEZ: Who agrees with that?
Three of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm still borderline.
SANCHEZ: How would you like your son or daughter to be going to a school where 80 percent of the kids are immigrants?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a human being, my immigration experience has emboldened me so much, I've learned so much from being thrown into a new environment, that I would actually be excited to be in a room with so many different backgrounds.
SANCHEZ: That's perfectly fine, if you're one to one, or even half the class is that way. But there are schools in California where some 80 percent of the kids -- I've visited them -- are newly arrived immigrants who are Hispanic. And they don't speak English. And that's tough on the other kids who do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read that we spend $2 million a year just on trying to get those kids to learn English.
SANCHEZ: Here's how I learned English. I was immersed. I came to this country as a refugee, as an immigrant. And I was thrown into the system. And I went to Miss Macalbane's (ph) class in Hialeah, Florida and I learned English. There was no special program, no bilingual program. And my English is pretty good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Education should be just in one language, which is the, you know, the first language of this country is English. I don't have any -- I didn't have any problems learning the language. Of course, I'm still learning, you know, a lot of the things.
SANCHEZ: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But, you know, I think if I did it, anybody else could.
SANCHEZ: I like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I disagree with that because the children are the future workers of this country. So if we don't help them to be competitive enough, there won't be an advantage for them to compete with kids from Asia, from Europe, from Africa...
SANCHEZ: I'm not saying don't help them, I'm just saying don't give them a crutch. Don't give them a special bilingual special education program that sometimes lasts for four, five, six years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think the bilingual programs that we have -- at least that I -- the one that I went through, which was super beneficial for me so I wouldn't fall behind in my academics, so that I could transition and merge properly into this culture and be a -- you know, an educated citizen. It only lasted two or three years and then later on I was able to -- to switch into the mainstream.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Part two of that conversation tomorrow -- League of First Time Voters. What is the fall of the fat cats?
Obviously, we're talking about Wall Street. We're talking about the credit crisis. And we're talking about a special that we're going to be bringing you.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back to the World Headquarters of CNN. And there you see the numbers. Yes, there's a plus in front of those numbers. That means the market is up on this day. We'll be checking in with Susan Lisovicz in just a little bit.
But first, let's check in with Wolf Blitzer.
He's standing by now to bring us up to date on what's coming up today in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf, what you got?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, good. Thanks very much, Rick.
At the top of the hour, more on the man not running for president, but featured is prominently at last night's presidential debate. That would be Joe the Plumber. What's the strategy behind making him a central figure in this campaign? And you'll be hearing from Joe the Plumber himself. That's coming up.
Also, a war of words over Iraq and Afghanistan from veterans of those wars. You'll meet two men fighting for a seat in Congress who have very different opinions on how to win the wars they fought in.
And it's something that our children or their children could be saddled with -- the ballooning is budget deficits. Between Barack Obama and John McCain, whose proposals would really bring it down?
All that and a lot more coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
SANCHEZ: Hey, thanks so much, Wolf Blitzer. We'll look forward to it.
By the way, there are viewers out there who are watching this newscast right now who completely disagreed with our conversation and our premise moments ago -- on two counts, as a matter of fact.
Let's go to the Twitter board, if we possibly can.
This is journalist13: "I think you're looking entirely too much into this, Rick -- the eye roll, the smirk. They are human beings. Stop it."
OK. Thank you very much.
Marnweeks says to us, she says, regarding immersion -- which is what I was talking about a little while ago: "Spanish and English are related languages with a basic form in common." But then she reminds me: "Try Vietnamese Chinese or Filipino immersion." Point taken.
Thank you guys for your comments. Let's talk about something else now.
Abbi Boudreau is going to be joining me this weekend. We're going to be bringing you a special at 8:00 p.m. And what we're going to be talking about is the fat cats -- the guys on Wall Street who are now coming down from their highs, so to speak. Here's a taste of what we're going to be bring you this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So sophisticated.
(VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that's unbelievable. I can't believe it.
ABBIE BOUDREAU, INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: It's early evening in Manhattan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you're welcome. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See you guys soon.
BOUDREAU: The cigar smoke is billowing. Drinks are flowing.
AARON SIGMOND, EDITOR, "CIGAR REPORT": All the good things in life -- caviar. We have a lot of caviar.
BOUDREAU: And if the guests at this party, hosted by a magazine called "The Cigar Report," are a little tone deaf about how this kind of event might be perceived, they don't seem to be especially concerned.
(on camera): And it looks like you guys are just all having a good time. And she's off getting her hair cut, manicures.
ADAM MARSH, EMPIRE CAPITAL PARTNERS: Manicures, haircut. They're -- it's a great time. I think for at least a couple hours in an evening, we can kind of step back, have a few drinks, forget that -- what's facing us out on the street tomorrow.
BOUDREAU (voice-over): These are among some of the faces of Wall Street -- traders, mid-level executives -- the men and women who rely on bonuses that can reach into the hundreds of thousands to keep their lifestyles afloat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, you play hard, you work hard, you work hard, you play hard.
BOUDREAU: And if they earned that much, the money their bosses took in before the crisis hit was, well, stratospheric.
ROBERT FRANK, AUTHOR, "RICHISTAN": These guys were spending more than $250 billion a year. They bought mansions in Greenwich and Palm Beach. They bought art for $100 million a painting. The waiting list for Ferraris is more than a year long.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: They spent collectively over $250 billion. And it's funny because the one guy says well, you know, what, we work hard. We're allowed to play hard. But why does he think he works any harder than the guy who's got two or three jobs and three or four kids in the suburbs? I mean...
BOUDREAU: Well, he never said that. I mean he's saying he himself works hard and plays hard. He works, you know, a 10 to 12 hour day, a high stress, high pressure type of job and this was their chance to sort of relax and I mean, you know...
SANCHEZ: But at what point -- you know, I guess maybe this is what you and I are going to be bringing out -- and we're going to be doing this with folks who are going to be joining us on MySpace and Facebook and Twitter and CNN.com -- at what point is enough enough?
Or is there never an enough with these people?
BOUDREAU: That's hard to say. I mean these people -- this is what -- exactly what we're going to be looking into, the lifestyles of these rich CEO types. I mean we're talking yachts, expensive cars, fancy houses, vacation homes. You name it, they buy it.
SANCHEZ: And if it was just one, it wouldn't be a problem. It's how many, right? It's not one car, it's not one boat.
Abbie Boudreau. This is going to be good. I'm really looking forward to it, 8:00 p.m.
By the way, when we come back, the fix -- who makes it today?
Ellen and Colbert -- their best right here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Here it is, your favorite part of the show -- Today's Picks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELLEN DEGENERES, HOST "THE ELLEN DEGENERES SHOW": Tonight, oh it's exciting. It's the third and final presidential debate.
How about that?
(APPLAUSE)
DEGENERES: Oh. Good. Finally, finally, all of our questions about the economy will be avoided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST "THE COLBERT REPORT": It happened again. The Dow took a 733 point plunge today, after shooting up over 900 points on Monday. It's like a roller coaster, only you vomit your money.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: So today I pulled all my cash out of the market and bought a KFC Smacker. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
(APPLAUSE)
COLBERT: Almost had enough. Comfort food. Mmm.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: I doubt they're a sponsor.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: I swear, if I ever get my hands on this Dow Jones character, I'm going to kick his (OBSCENE WORD OMITTED).
I'm coming for you Jones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Somebody else is looking for Dow Jones.
In fact, she checks on him every single day. She -- did you find him yet, Susan Lisovicz, this Dow Jones character?
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's an old guy. He's got a lot of life in him, this Dow Jones guy. He's been around since I don't know, about 1896. And, yes, he's been keeping us on a ride.
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer standing by now in THE SITUATION ROOM -- Wolf, to you.
BLITZER: All right, Rick. Thanks very much.
