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American Morning

World Markets Plunge; Post-Debate Analysis: Who Came Out on Top; Joe the Plumber Reacts to Debate; Recession Fear Triggers Stock Plunge; Former First Lady Nancy Reagan Will Stay in a California Hospital; CNN Poll Finding That Barack Obama Won the Debate; First Time Voters React to Debate

Aired October 16, 2008 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Last licks.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama, I am not President Bush.

CHETRY: John McCain comes out swinging. Barack Obama tries to protect his lead.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What the American people can't afford, though, is four more years of failed economic policies.

CHETRY: With 19 days until decision day. And, average Joe.

JOE WURZELBACHER, JOE THE PLUMBER: I want to see this country remain a democracy and not a socialist society.

CHETRY: The real star of last night's debate. I want Joe --

CHETRY: Getting to know Joe the plumber on the "Most Politics in the Morning."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Well, the third and final debate now down the tubes.

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: That's one way of putting it (INAUDIBLE).

CHETRY: It's Joe the plumber, right? It's over at least.

ROBERTS: Down the drain for Joe the plumber.

CHETRY: Exactly.

ROBERTS: An interesting night last night, though, and I think probably the most dynamic debate that we have seen thus far. And the question is, is it going to move the numbers all on this remaining -- what's it? Nineteen days now.

CHETRY: You have 19 days to go. And boy, really, we're going to tell you more about what people who watched the debate thought. But it really seemed to break in favor for the most part of Barack Obama among the independents, and those are the ones that are going to make the big difference.

ROBERTS: We are going to tell you about more about what people thought than you ever imagine you could possibly hear over the course of three hours.

Let's get right into it. The "Most Politics in the Morning" now, that third and final presidential debate in the history books.

The economy dominated from the start, as Barack Obama and John McCain ripped into each other's economic rescue plans. For most of the 90 minutes, McCain played the aggressor while Obama continued to link McCain to President Bush. In just a moment, new poll numbers on who people say came out on top.

Global markets tumbled overnight following another massive selloff on Wall Street. Japan's Nikkei index down more than 11 percent. Hong Kong's Hang Seng was down more than five. London's FTSE trading in negative territories right now -- negative territory right now.

Dow futures also down after yesterday's 733-point drop. That's the second biggest point loss ever.

And we're tracking breaking news this morning. Hurricane Omar picking up speed in the Caribbean and drenching the northern Leeward Islands right now. The storm, a dangerous Category 3, is flooding the region with up to 20 inches of rain. Winds currently are 125 miles an hour. Forecasters say the storm's track shows it's heading into the open waters of the Atlantic soon -- Kiran.

CHETRY: Well, back to the "Most Politics in the Morning." We're getting a firsthand look at how the candidates fared in last night's presidential debate. According to a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll, 58 percent of people who watched last night think that Senator Barack Obama came out on top. Thirty-one percent say they felt McCain performed better.

Sixty-six percent had a favorable opinion of Senator Obama after the debate. Now that was up three percent from before the debate. And 49 percent had a favorable opinion of Senator John McCain down two percent from before the debate. The freewheeling exchange covered a lot of ground from the economy to the attacks.

CNN's Ed Henry is live this morning in Hempstead, New York, on Long Island where that debate took place.

Hi there, Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kiran, good morning. You're absolutely right that the format of this debate was more open. It allowed these two candidates to really mix it up for the first time and all the debates. But with the bottom line is that with three debates on the books now, Barack Obama has emerged as the clear front- runner.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY (voice-over): Finally in the third debate the gloves came off.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You launched your political campaign in Mr. Ayers' living room.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's absolutely not true.

HENRY: From the start, McCain was crisper and stayed on offense, pouncing when moderator Bob Schieffer brought up Obama's ties to former 1960s radical William Ayers.

MCCAIN: Senator Clinton said in her debates with you, we need to know the full extent of that relationship.

HENRY: Eager to avoid a gaffe that might knock him out of front- runner status, Obama was flattered than before but he held his own by calmly pushing back.

OBAMA: Mr. Ayers is not involved in my campaign. He has never been involved in this campaign, and he will not advise me in the White House.

HENRY: On a day the Dow lost another 733 points, McCain had his best performance yet on the economy, repeatedly citing Joe the plumber.

OBAMA: Nobody likes high taxes.

JOE WURZELBACHER, JOE THE PLUMBER: No, not at all.

HENRY: An Ohio man who recently pressed Obama about whether his tax plan would hurt small businesses.

MCCAIN: Senator Obama wants government to do the job. I want, Joe, you do the job. I want to leave money in your pocket.

HENRY: An attack Obama sidestepped with a joke.

OBAMA: I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there.

HENRY: Some undecided voters in Joe's home state told CNN McCain repeated the story too many times, and he continued to struggle with the shadow of President Bush.

MCCAIN: Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago. I'm going to give a new direction to this economy.

HENRY: A softball for Obama to drive home his underlying point about change.

OBAMA: Now you've shown independence -- commendable independence, on some key issues like torture. But when it comes to economic policies, essentially what you are proposing is eight more years of the same thing. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: So McCain clearly raised his game in this third and final debate. But without a major gaffe from Obama, he's still in the driver's seat with just 19 days to go -- Kiran.

CHETRY: All right. Ed Henry for us this morning on Long Island. Thanks so much.

Well, as Ed mentioned, John McCain and Barack Obama made repeated references to Joe the plumber while talking about taxes. This morning, we're putting a face on the name of that Ohio voter -- Joe Wurzelbacher, who told Obama on the campaign trail that his tax plan would prevent him from buying a small business. Well, last night, Joe spoke to CNN affiliate WTOL in Toledo about that debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE WURZELBACHER, "JOE THE PLUMBER": It's just, you know, surreal to hear my name on national TV. And like I said before, I'm just glad I could be used to get some points across, you know, hopefully make some other Americans go out really looking to the issues and find out for themselves.

I want to set the records straight. Currently, I would not fall into Barack Obama's 250 plus, but if I'm lucky in business and, you know, taxes don't go up, then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket. Let me rephrase it. Hopefully, you know, that tax won't be there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you OK with being called the Joe the plumber?

WURZELBACHER: Oh, sure. Yes. No, that doesn't bother me at all. You know, if I can capitalize on that with my business, then, you know, I definitely will. Other than that, though, I've been called worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: It's hard enough to get the plumber to your house. Now that he's famous, we're going to see in the show.

Well, Joe is not revealing who he's voting for but he did say, "John McCain got it right as far as I go."

ROBERTS: Well, with the final debate now behind us, it is a sprint to the finish over the next 19 days for John McCain and Barack Obama. Did McCain deliver the debate performance that he needed to turn the tide in the final days?

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joins us with some morning after debate analysis. First of all, it was interesting to hear Joe the plumber say that he's not yet in that tax bracket...

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

ROBERTS: ... because the way they were talking about him last night was that he was, and he was a classic example of what would happen.

MALVEAUX: Right. I mean, that was one of the McCain talking points was that this is somebody who would be hit by Obama's tax increase. So it's interesting that he actually clarified that whole thing and he noted that he used his talking point. I think he was the winner in this debate. It's Joe the plumber.

ROBERTS: What would save the business, increase it (ph). But anyway, to the debate itself, did Barack Obama get knocked off of his game a little bit last night because most post-game analyses suggested that he didn't do as well as he did in the first two debates?

MALVEAUX: You know, most people when they take a look at the performance, they say that perhaps the first two were stronger. But he certainly, he kept his cool and that was something that they were watching for very closely, that he never became rattled by McCain's, I guess, the personal issues, some of the more -- the attacks that we've seen about William Ayers.

He essentially outlined his economic plan. He came out with some of those details. You could tell when he was perturbed. He would smile, he would look down, but he never was knocked off.

And the CNN polls at least seem to bear out that that worked for him. That in terms of favorables, pretty much stayed the same but who they liked better was 70 percent for Obama, about 22 percent for McCain. He talked about his associations.

If you're going to talk about William Ayers, he said, well, I'm the kind of guy who hangs out with Warren Buffett as well as Dick Lugar. But those are the kinds of things that he needed to come out and talk about and address so that he wasn't portrayed as the other, as this unknown or this risky figure that McCain has been trying to portray.

ROBERTS: It was interesting, though, when talking about ACORN, he did not mention that his campaign gave ACORN during the primaries $800,000 and some to get out the vote drive.

MALVEAUX: That's right.

ROBERTS: But to another point, the two big issues of the night were Barack Obama tried to suggest that John McCain was going to be four more years of President Bush. John McCain suggesting, trying to make the point that Obama was going to be a tax and spend liberal. Who won in that argument?

MALVEAUX: Well, McCain finally made the point and he made it directly, and a lot of Republican friends and supporters said, God, why didn't he do this sooner. He simply just came out and said, look, I'm not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush you should have done that four years ago. Really kind of, that was a moment, stopped people in their tracks there. That was something that perhaps he needed to talk about and hit home for weeks and weeks on end because Obama has, in some ways, successfully really put him in the same category as George Bush. When it came to tax and spend liberal, that label they're trying to put on Obama, he addressed it every single time that McCain came out and said, look, he's going to raise your taxes. Obama came back and said no, I'm going to lower them for at least 95 percent.

When he talked about the spending, he actually outlined some of the things that he thought were going to have to be cut. So, I don't necessarily think that that's going to stick but we'll have to see what the voters think.

ROBERTS: And it's interesting to find out that Joe Wurzelbacher, Joe the plumber, was not the example...

MALVEAUX: No, no.

ROBERTS: ... that he was being held up to be last night. Surprise, surprise.

Suzanne, thanks so much for that.

MALVEAUX: All right. Thank you.

CHETRY: Well, the way that Senator Hillary Clinton sees it, Barack Obama scored a clean sweep in all three presidential debates. Clinton telling CNN that she's not thinking about a cabinet position and plans to work side-by-side with Obama from the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Really want to stay a senator. I am committed to being in the Senate, working with President Obama. I think we have a real chance to break the gridlock, get things done, start progress going again in America, and I want to be part of that in the Senate. And one of the lessons that I took away from my husband's administration is don't take senators out of the Senate. You need every Democratic senator that you possibly can have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Clinton says that it's going to take a Democratic president and Congress to repair the damage done by President Bush and the Republicans like John McCain, who she says has supported Bush's policies.

Well, last night's face-off was critical to the road to the White House. How did the two candidates fare with middle class voters? Our political analysts break it down.

ROBERTS: Rollercoaster ride. Another big dip for the Dow. Christine Romans with the latest on the overseas markets and what we can expect today on Wall Street.

You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are now looking at a deficit of well over half a trillion dollars. So one of the things that I think we have to recognize is pursuing the same kinds of policies that we pursued over the last eight years is not going to bring down the deficit. And, frankly, Senator McCain voted for four out of five of President Bush's budgets.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago. I'm going to give a new direction to this economy in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Well, John McCain and Barack Obama sparring over the economy as the Dow dropped another 733 points yesterday. Asian markets also down overnight with Japan's Nikkei losing more than 11 percent. Hong Kong's Hang Seng up more than five percent. In Europe, London's FTSE trading in negative territory. And Japan's prime minister is blaming the new market drop on the $700 billion bailout plan calling the financial rescue package "insufficient" -- John.

ROBERTS: Well, just a few hours before last night's third and final debate, we got some new battleground poll numbers in that are changing the electoral map here at CNN.

Let's first of all show you what's happening. Here in the state of Colorado, this is a state where Barack Obama was up by as much as nine points yesterday. We were talking about, yesterday morning Colorado perhaps deciding this election.

Well, our new polls now have him only up by four points. So that's a swing of five points. So that race tightening up there in the state of Colorado. But look at this, this is big news over here.

Virginia, yesterday morning, we had Barack Obama up by four points. Now our latest battleground polls have got him up by 10 points in the state of Virginia which has not voted for a Democrat since 1964.

So let's go to the electoral college map and see how this changes things around. Yesterday, there were seven battleground states. Today, there are six. Nevada, Colorado, Missouri, Ohio, North Carolina and Florida.

You'll notice that Virginia, with its 13 electoral votes, is now in the Obama column and if we come up here to the electoral college projections, again, 270 needed to win the White House. For the very first time, Barack Obama has gone over that number, 277 to 174. So John McCain very much now needs to hit the trail and try to pull back some of those states that Barack Obama has settled into.

So, John McCain not only needs to win Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and Missouri and Nevada and Colorado to even get him close, but now he needs to try to turn things around in other battleground states. States like Maine, for example. That's where Sarah Palin is going to be today. She's going to be up in that state that went for John Kerry in 2004, trying to peel back some votes.

John McCain is going to be here in the battleground state of Pennsylvania. He is going to be out in these counties west of Pennsylvania where George Bush won in 2004. But take a look at this.

Just flipping quickly to the Democratic primary map that was solidly Barack Obama territory. So he's going to try to cut into what Barack Obama did during the primaries, take it back to the way that it was in 2004. That's a big job he's got ahead of him. There's going to be a lot to do in the next 19 days.

6:15. You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

CHETRY: A new star in the final presidential debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hey, Joe, you're rich. Congratulations.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there. Here's your fine. Zero.

MCCAIN: Zero?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Breaking down the candidate's tax plans and introducing you to Joe the plumber.

You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHETRY: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Last night was the third and the final debate between the presidential candidates. So how did the crucial independent voters score the candidates?

Joining me now, John Avlon, a registered independent and contributor to "Politico," as well as Patricia Murphy, editor of Citizenjanepolitics.com.

Great to have you both with us. Get a chance to looking at the debate, independents actually scored this one as a win for Barack Obama.

JOHN AVLON, REGISTERED INDEPENDENT: They did by more than a 20-point margin. You know, Democrats said Obama won overwhelmingly. Republicans have surprisingly said the same thing about John McCain, but independents are the honest brokers in politics and they gave this debate to Obama.

CHETRY: There's a look -- 57 percent to 31 percent. What was it, do you think, that resonated with the independent voter?

PATRICIA MURPHY, EDITOR, CITIZENJANEPOLITICS.COM: I think if you look at which one of these two went more negative, who seemed more partisan, John McCain started off so strong. But then once the topic of Bill Ayers came up, you started to see him start to get more angry. He went from assertive to aggressive, and I think that that really turns off independent voters.

And he didn't talk much about issues after -- kind of after the strong (INAUDIBLE), he stops talking about issues that matter to independent voters and people who are still making up their minds. And the Dow yesterday dropped 733 points. No mention of that. Very little mention of really the specific fears that are going on with people. He should have done that more.

AVLON: Yes. And McCain is laboring under Bush's unpopularity. I mean, last night for the first time, he really threw Bush under the bus and I think that's a good thing for independents generally, I think the candidate's strong debate. But you saw Obama going back to his core theme which is that you continue the politics and policies of the Bush administration, we're going to get deeper in the hole we're in right now.

CHETRY: And let's listen to John McCain, as you said, throwing President Bush under the bus, if you will. Your words not mine. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago. I'm going to give a new direction to this economy in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Do you think that was an effective argument?

AVLON: I do. I mean, I think when he did that, that was the moment I think in the McCain camp when everyone cheered and said yes, finally, because that's what McCain needs to do. He spent most of the last eight years fighting with Bush and Karl Rove. So it's kind of ironic that now they're dragging him down so badly.

CHETRY: Right.

And was this helpful because the way that Barack Obama was not as zippy of a sound bite as what we heard from McCain, but the way he countered that was to say, yes, you have done things like go against the administration on torture, immigration, but on the fundamental issue of the economy, you voted along the lines of President Bush.

MURPHY: Right. I think that is a very effective argument for Obama and that's the argument he's been making for the last month. McCain actually did differ from Bush quite a bit on spending. His voting record didn't always go there, and I don't think last night he really pushed it enough. When he had that line, it was the best moment of the debate for him. I thought he should have hit it again and again and again. And he didn't do that. CHETRY: The other interesting thing is when we take a look at the electoral map now, estimates that if the election were held today, and this is still hypothetical, that Barack Obama would have enough electoral votes to win the White House.

There's a look at it right now -- 277 to 174 for John McCain. When they take these polls and they talk about likely voters, where do the independents come into play here?

AVLON: Well, independents are, as you know, that largest and fastest growing segment of the electorate. Among undecideds, which is really who are being fought over now, they make up around 50 to 45 percent of undecideds and those are also centrists as well. So you're seeing independents and centrists are the ones who are really in play now. And that's who McCain was trying to reach out to last night, and that's who Obama is trying to solidify, talking to the camera directly, talking more about bringing together independents, Republicans and Democrats, kind of a return to some of that post- partisan theme that he'd done earlier in the primaries.

CHETRY: Did it work?

MURPHY: I think that -- I think Obama was a little bit flat last night, but he did what he needed to do which was very little. He is so far ahead right now.

The only good news for McCain right now is there's still about 17 percent of people who say that they're persuadable. They could change their mind. He's at 34 if you add all 17 to 34, he could win. He could turn this around. Last night was a big opportunity, but I don't think he used really to his best advantage.

CHETRY: Thanks to both of you. We'll see you later on in the show as well.

Patricia Murphy and John Avlon, thanks.

AVLON: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm all over the place. McCain totally called him out on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Jason Carroll crashes a debate party to see how voters react to the crucial final get together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hands down Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: You're watching the "Most News in the Morning." (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think everybody understands at this point that we are experiencing the worse financial crisis since the Great Depression.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Americans are hurting right now and they're angry. They're hurting and they're angry. They are innocent victims of greed and excess on Wall Street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: John McCain and Barack Obama focusing their attention on the financial crisis during their debate. New fears of a recession are having a ripple effect across the globe. Asian stocks plunging overnight on the heels of yesterday's 700 plus point drop on the Dow.

So which candidate offered the better economic prescription. Chrystia Freeland is the managing editor of the "Financial Times" here in the U.S. and she joins us now.

First of all, before we get into the economic plans, what is going on here? We had another government plan announced. It was a little bit of a feel good for the market for a couple of days. Now, we're back almost down to where we were before this plan came out.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND, U.S. MANAGING EDITOR, "FINANCIAL TIMES": I think what we're seeing, John, is what a lot of people were predicting at the beginning of the credit crunch, which is a financial crisis almost inevitably is followed by a crisis in the rest of the economy. And so, we had this intense focus on the financial crisis, was it going to tip us into a Great Depression.

I think the rescue plan has alleviated those fears and the tiny bit of good news is the credit markets are a little bit better. They're starting to unfreeze. They're starting to function.

ROBERTS: So why does the Dow continue to go down to the depths that it is?

FREELAND: Because people have -- people have focused on step two. And people are now saying OK, even if the credit markets start to function more normally, even if we have a banking system that kind of operates, albeit one owned partly by the governments of the world, we're going to have a recession in the rest of the economy. And we had retail sales figures this week. We had jobless numbers in other parts of the world. We have falling commodities prices, all very strong indicators that we are heading into what could be a really vicious global recession.

ROBERTS: Yes. Retail sales down almost twice what people's expectations were. So to the candidates last night, who had the better economic plan. You know, John McCain talking about extending tax cuts, help to people who have mortgages, spending freeze. Barack Obama with his middle class tax cuts, raising taxes on people who make more than $250,000. Infrastructure spending. Who's got the best plan here?

FREELAND: Well, I think we saw obviously a lot of pandering. That's what candidates have to do ahead of an election and focus on specific interest groups. But if you look beyond that, I think we saw the outlines of two quite different approaches to this coming recession.

On one hand, you have John McCain saying, I am going to focus on keeping spending in check and keeping taxes down. I will be a careful steward of the nation's finances. I thought that was one of his best lines.

On the other hand, you have Obama saying, yes, I'll be careful. Yes, I won't be wasteful but my focus is going to be on spending, on using the government and on using money to get wages up to create jobs. So those are two very different economic visions.

ROBERTS: Yes. They are two fundamentally different approaches. Which one is the best for where we are right now?

FREELAND: Ultimately, I think, John, (INAUDIBLE) ideological decision for voters to make. Having said that, I think worldwide what you are seeing is a shift to what you might want to call (INAUDIBLE), and what economists are talking about --

ROBERTS: Put that in language that everybody can understand.

FREELAND: Government spending money. An economic theory that when you have a downturn, actually that's the moment the government has to come in and spend money. The basic idea there is that you have this paradox of thrift that even as you go into a recession, what you have is suddenly consumers, what we're seeing with the retail sales figures, saying, oh, oh, I can spend so much money. You have businesses sink. Oh, oh, I can't spend so much money.

And so, if you want the economy to be revved up the game, the only player left is the government. So that would be the economic theory behind the Obama investment's view.

ROBERTS: Well, those eight percent of undecided voters got a big decision to make in the next 19 days.

Chrystia Freeland, good to see you again. Thanks for coming in.

FREELAND: It's a pleasure, John.

ROBERTS: Kiran?

CHETRY: It's just half past the hour. We get a check of the top stories this morning.

Gas prices continue heading down. AAA reports the national average price for regular unleaded is now $3.08 a gallon. It's down four cents from yesterday. Price of gas has dropped now for 29 straight days. It's down more than a dollar from the high in July. Hurricane Omar is roaring across the Caribbean right now, soaking the Leeward Islands with up to 20 inches of rain. The Category 3 storm packing winds of 125 miles per hour. It's expected to weaken though in the next 24 hours as it heads towards the open waters of the Atlantic.

And former First Lady Nancy Reagan will stay in a California hospital for a few days after she broke her pelvis. The spokeswoman for the 87-year-old says that Nancy fell last week in her home. She admitted herself to the hospital yesterday after experiencing pain. Doctors say she is in good spirits.

And to the "Most Politics in the Morning." Senator John McCain came in to last night's debate needing a game changer. And this morning brand new numbers on who voters believe came out on top. Let check it out. A CNN Opinion Research Corporation Poll finding that 58 percent of those asked believed that Barack Obama won the debate. 31 percent say John McCain won. And while sitting just inches apart the two men challenged each other on everything from economic policies to the tone of the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator McCain, the centerpiece of his economic proposal is to provide $200 billion in additional tax breaks to some of the wealthiest corporations in America.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The whole premise behind Senator Obama's plans are class warfare. Let's spread the wealth around.

OBAMA: Look, nobody likes taxes. I would prefer that none of us have to pay taxes including myself. But ultimately, we've got to pay for the poor investments that makes this economy strong.

MCCAIN: Nobody likes taxes. Let's not raise anybody's taxes.

OBAMA: Well, I don't mind paying a little more.

MCCAIN: You have launched your political campaign in Mr. Ayres living room.

OBAMA: That's absolutely not true.

MCCAIN: And facts are facts and records are records.

OBAMA: That is not the thing.

MCCAIN: And it's not the fact -- it's not the fact that Senator Obama choose to associate with a guy when in 2001 said that he wished he had bombed more. And he had a long association with him. It's the fact that all of the details need to be known about Senator Obama's relationship with them and with Acorn and the American people will make a judgment. OBAMA: Mr. Ayres is not involved in my campaign. He has never been involved in this campaign. And he will not advise me in the White House. The fact that this has become such an important part of your campaign, Senator McCain says more about your campaign than it says about me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: CNN's Jason Carroll watched the debate with a number of Virginia voters, and he is live this morning in Hampton, Virginia?

Hi, Jason, what are they saying this morning?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are saying a lot as you can imagine. I'm here at the Phoebus Coffee House. And the owner here, Ann, tells me this is really like the community's living room. A place where people can come and talk, and talk about issue, hammer things out. Last night was a perfect example of that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): When you host a debate party...

ANNE DOOP, OWNER, THE PHOEBUS COFFEE HOUSE: I need to see where the Democrats are.

CARROLL: And invite passionate people from both sides in a sweet state like Virginia...

DOOP: Can I see and show hands for Republicans.

CARROLL: The ground rules are clear. No swinging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE), vote for the U.S.A.

CARROLL: But that doesn't mean voters here are pulling any punches.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator McCain just didn't (INAUDIBLE). He was a little bit unsure himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obama is really shifty in a lot of things. And I think that finally came out.

CARROLL: Senator McCain supporters said one of his strongest moments was when he challenged Senator Barack Obama on his past affiliation with former terrorist Bill Ayres.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obama needs to be accountable for his actions. You know, dealing with this terrorist.

CARROLL (on camera): The consensus seems to be that this was McCain's best debate so far. Are you in agreement with that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. He did a good job.

CARROLL (voice-over): But Obama supporters said McCain should have spent less time attacking.

(on camera): Well, I can see who you support just based on your hat here.

(voice-over): They give their candidate high marks for his take on issues like the economy and health care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was on point, he was on message and he tried focus on issues instead of attacking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really didn't want to talk about the negative campaigning. What I wanted to hear about was health care and the economy and what they are going to do about jobs. And I thought Obama really keep the topic back to that.

CARROLL: McCain supporters said he excelled on issues including education and abortion, and was best at being himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, his values, his perception, his history, his grasp for things, his life experience.

CARROLL: This divided room in Hampton, Virginia is symbolic of a split state.

DOOP: You can drive down the street and there will Obama signs and you go to the next street, in the same neighborhood and they're all McCains.

CARROLL: We did find two voters in the room who were undecided before last night's debate but no longer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just based on tonight, I had to go with Obama. I did not hear from McCain, any plan that really made sense to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm favoring Senator Obama. I like to see people who speak carefully, thoughtfully.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And obviously those undecided voters are going to be key in a place like Virginia. Also they are doing an unofficial Phoebus Coffee House Poll here based on the number of bags of coffee sold. You've got the blue for Obama here. You've got the red for McCain. Obama is the Kenyan and Indonesian blend here. And if you're interested, McCain is the strong and flavorful Central American blend. What's the verdict so far? McCain has sold 12. Obama has sold 16. Again, unofficial poll here in Virginia.

Kiran?

CHETRY: All right, I got it. You know, Virginia is going to be so critical this time around. For the first time in 44 years, it's leaning towards a Democrat. Obama in our latest polling is up by 10 points there.

CARROLL: Still a few weeks ago. We'll see what happens. CHETRY: Yes. 19 days. You know we're all counting. All right. Jason Carroll, great to talk to you this morning.

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: "Truth Squad" --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: You voted twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals making $42,000 a year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Did Obama really support tax hikes? Alina Cho is checking up on what the candidates said at the debate. You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBERTS: Well, welcome back to the "Most News in the Morning." The "Truth Squad" was watching last night's final debate and checking the facts as they went along. Alina Cho looking into some tax talk for us this morning.

Good morning to you.

ALINA CHO, CNN GENERAL ASSIGNMENT CORRESPONDENT: Everybody cares about that, right, John? Good morning. Good morning, everybody. You know the difference between a tax cut and a tax increase would seem pretty clear but as we've seen on the campaign trail and we saw on the debate last night nothing simple when it comes to presidential politics.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCCAIN: You voted twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals making $42,000 a year.

CHO (voice-over): So, is McCain right? He's talking about this. Senate Concurrent Resolution 70 which outlines the Senate budget priorities through 2013. Obama voted in favor of it back in June. But the measure had no practical effect. It was non-binding. And assumed that most of President Bush's temporary tax cuts would expire.

McCain is calling the expiration of those tax cuts a tax increase. In the Annenberg Public Policy Center reports that part of the Senate budget bill is not even part of Obama's current tax plan. So, is McCain right?

MCCAIN: Increases the taxes on individuals making $42,000 a year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHO: So, the "Truth Squad" verdict on this one is misleading. What McCain called a tax increase was really the expiration of President Bush's tax cuts. You got to watch the language. Also the Independent Tax Policy Center has found that Obama's tax plan which he rolled out during the campaign would offer tax cuts to 80 percent of American households while increasing taxes on the wealthiest 20 percent.

John, as you know, that works out to 95 percent of tax paying Americans while increasing taxes to people who make $250,000 or more.

ROBERTS: I guess a lot of this is language as well.

CHO: It is.

ROBERTS: One person's expiration of tax cuts is another one's tax increase.

CHO: That's right. You got to look at the semantics very closely especially 19 days before the election.

ROBERTS: Certainly do. Thanks very much, Alina.

CHO: You bet.

ROBERTS: Everybody watching very closely. 40 minutes after the hour now.

CHETRY: The virgin perspective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never forget your first time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: The teenager using YouTube to get first timers to the polls is back live with a first-hand report on how new voters reacted to last night's final debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Let's get the record straight.

MCCAIN: That to me was so hurtful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I propose a $4,000 tuition credit to every student every year in exchange for some form of community service, whether it's military service, whether it's Peace Corps, whether it's working in a community.

MCCAIN: We need to make those student loans available. We need to give them a repayment schedule that they can meet. We need to have full student loan program for in-state tuition. And we certainly need to adjust the student loan eligibility to inflation. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: John McCain and Barack Obama weighing in on the rising cost of education. For the first time in the three debates they talked about it. So, how did students react to the exchange? We have 16- year-old Noah Gray with us. He was with a group of young voters at Hofstra University. He also created a Web site to get young people to the polls and to document their first time voting, virgin voting.

Noah, great to see you this morning.

NOAH GRAY, FOUNDER, VIRGIN VOTING: Thanks for having me.

CHETRY: Someday, Noah wants to be a political reporter. Last night, you got to pull your first all-nighter, right? Going into the debate and then turning your story for it in the wee hours of the morning. How do you feel today?

GRAY: I feel tired but I'm very excited to be here and I enjoyed the debate last night and covering it.

CHETRY: Now you put together a piece for us, right? We're going to see a little bit of that coming up a little bit later.

GRAY: All right.

CHETRY: But I want to ask you, with the students that you were with last night, a lot of them are going to be facing this very thing, how they pay for, how they pay off those student loans. Did they hear what they wanted to hear from the candidates?

GRAY: A lot of the students that I spoke with at Hofstra were very satisfied with the domestic issues that they spoke about last night, including education. I mean, I was in a room which they called the no-spin zone, which was just the straight feed, no spin, just watching straight the candidates just speaking. And everybody, as soon as they mentioned education, people would cheer. And I mean, because that's what relates to them. It's they want to hear about -- how they can get an affordable education.

CHETRY: Exactly. By the way, someone already has a show where they call it the "No Spin Zone." But that's OK (INAUDIBLE). I wanted to ask you about whether or not this -- a lot of people said this was a game changer, needed to be a game changer. For people that were already supporting -- the students who are already supporting Barack Obama or are already supporting John McCain, did last night change anything for them?

GRAY: From the students that I spoke with, I spoke with -- I found there were a lot of undecided kids who were basing last night's debate on which candidate they were going to vote for. A lot of them sort of had a feel as to who they were going to cast their vote for.

But those who were undecided tended to say that they would -- I would say there was a majority of those who were undecided and they decided that they had to either do some more research and go on the Web sites but a lot of the people who based last night's debate on their final decision, I would have to say from what I found, was towards Barack Obama.

CHETRY: OK. And I want to ask you about this as well. You have your t-shirt on right now. This is "Never Forget Your First Time." I actually tried it on the newsroom yesterday, but I almost felt like I was waiting for concert tickets. But you want people to document their first time voting and put it on YouTube. You're calling it "Virgin Voting." Tell us a little bit about that.

GRAY: The virgin voting, doing it for the very first time video contest, is make a video two minutes or less documenting the first time voting whether or not it's at the polls, absentee ballots, early voting and you'll be judged for creativity, originality and quality and details are on my website.

But basically, the first place prize is a $500 gift card towards the Apple store. So, I mean, young people are known to register to vote but are they actually going to go to the polls and I'm giving them another incentive if they don't already have one.

CHETRY: That's great. And you also put a piece together for us about how things went last night, your first time covering a political debate. And you look great for being up all night. So, there you have it.

GRAY: Thank you. Well, it's the make-up artist. She's really good.

CHETRY: That's one of the little secrets of this, right? All right, well, we're going to get a chance to see Noah's piece coming up in the 8:00 hour.

Good job. Thanks for being with us, Noah.

GRAY: Thank you.

ROBERTS: Average Joe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: To Joe the Plumber.

MCCAIN: Joe, Senator Obama's plan...

OBAMA: And I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Grab a six-pack as Jeanne Moos introduces you to the real star of last night's debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: I want Joe, you to do the job.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTS: On the "Most Politics in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you OK with being called Joe the Plumber?

JOE WURZELBACHER, "JOE THE PLUMBER": Oh, sure. That doesn't bother me at all. You know, if I can capitalize on that with my business, then, you know, I definitely will. Other than that, though, I've been called worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: It is the name on everybody's lips this morning. And who knew that the final presidential debate of the season would have a break out star. Everybody is talking about Joe the Plumber, and the candidates did it more than two dozen times last night. And of course Jeanne Moos counted every one.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Somebody get some Drano and unclog this debate.

MCCAIN: Like Joe the Plumber. I want Joe the Plumber to spread that wealth around. Of course I've talked to people like Joe the Plumber.

MOOS: John McCain never met Joe the Plumber. But an hour into the debate, they were best friends.

MCCAIN: Now my old buddy Joe, Joe the Plumbers out there.

MOOS: Eventually --

MCCAIN: To Joe the Plumber.

MOOS: Both candidates were speaking directly to Joe.

MCCAIN: Joe, Senator Obama's plan --

OBAMA: And I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there.

MCCAIN: I want Joe, you do the job.

MOOS: Who is Joe?

WURZELBACHER: I'm a plumber. You know, I worked, you know, 10, 12 hours a day.

MOOS: Joe Wurzelbacher had a very agreeable disagreement the other day with Barack Obama over taxes.

WURZELBACHER: Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, doesn't it? MOOS: The answer is yes a bit more, but that chance encounter while Obama was going door-to-door in Ohio ended up overtaxing those watching the debate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I hear one more time the word or phrase the Joe the Plumber, I'm not going to vote for either one of them and I'm going to write Joe the Plumber in on my ballot as a writing vote.

MOOS: He's already being joked about as a possible V.P. for Sarah Palin in 2012.

MCCAIN: Joe, you're rich. Congratulations.

MOOS: Within hours of the debate --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Joe. I'm a plumber.

MOOS: Imposters were popping up on YouTube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just shut up. Stop talking about me.

MCCAIN: We're talking about reporter --

MOOS: He may be laughing but others weren't.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave Joe the Plumber alone right now.

MOOS: The real Joe told the "Huffington Post" that hearing his name during the debate was pretty surreal. The issue of taxes, he said McCain has got it right. But it wasn't just the candidates talking about him.

KEITH OLBERMANN, MSNBC HOST: Joe the Plumber has gone to sleep.

MOOS: Joe should have been charging by the hour for this.

MCCAIN: And I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay a fine.

OBAMA: What, Joe, if you want to do the right thing.

MOOS: Hearing Joe the Plumber was like hearing drip, drip, drip.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up. I got to finish this toilet.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHETRY: Breaking news. Overseas markets tank as the Dow drops again. And fighting over the fix. The candidates square off on the economy in the final debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: Let's not raise anybody's taxes.

OBAMA: Look, nobody likes taxes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: Plus a family with a real stake in the financial crisis. They lost their home to foreclosure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's so many of the politicians out there now that don't understand what the middle class is going through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: So, where were the answers for them?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're not hurting for anything. They don't have to live paycheck to paycheck. I'm petrified.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHETRY: You're watching the "Most News in the Morning."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBERTS: Welcome back to the "Most News in the Morning." Checking the latest CNN poll of polls this morning with 19 days left. Polls show Barack Obama have an eight point lead in a national general election. But eight percent of voters are still undecided. The poll was taken by the way before last night's debate.

Looking at the latest CNN electoral map, CNN now estimates that Barack Obama has enough electoral votes for a theoretical victory if the election were held today. The key swing State of Virginia moves from toss up to leaning toward Obama. Its 13 electoral votes give Obama 277 to McCain's 174. But there are still 19 days left to go. And anybody will tell you in politics that's a lifetime.

For a unique perspective on last night's debate between Senators Obama and McCain, let's bring in the man running against him. Libertarian presidential candidate Bob Barr joins me this morning from Norfolk, Virginia. He's been down there in the Commonwealth campaigning hard for election.

Congressman Barr, you took a look at the debate last night. A lot of people said for John McCain, it had to be a game changer. Do you think it was?

BOB BARR (L), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think we saw a game changer last night. We certainly, actually, saw a little bit more detail than we've seen in the other debates which isn't saying very much. Senator McCain did better than in the other two debates but I didn't see a game changer last night by any stretch of the imagination for either of the candidates. ROBERTS: You know, John McCain has been trying to paint Barack Obama as a tax and spend liberal. Senator Obama has been trying to put John McCain in the same house as President Bush. Senator McCain fought back against that last night. Let's listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: Senator Obama, I'm not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush you should have run four years ago. I'm going to give a new direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Congressman, they're trying to highlight the differences between the two of them. But you say on your Web site, quote, "for all the noise and fury of the campaign, Senators Barack Obama and John McCain agree more than they disagree." Did you not see last night as your campaign puts it a dime of difference between these two candidates.

BARR: There might be about a dime's difference but when you look at the trillions of dollars on which they are alike, that sort of pales in comparison. I mean, both of the candidates talked about huge increases in education, federal education spending. They've talked about additional federal involvement, both of them in health decisions that Americans make and, of course, on the pivotal issue, the economy right now.

Both Senator McCain and Senator Obama both believe that trillions of dollars of taxpayer dollars ought to be put at risk in a risky government bailout.

ROBERTS: You know on that point, I was on your Web site this morning. You got a new book out called "Lessons in Liberty." And in the promo for the book, you suggest that we're on the verge of nationalizing some of our banks. But there seems to be a consensus globally that trying to recapitalize these banks through bailouts here in the United States and Europe and around the world is the best way to go. What would you do differently?

BARR: Well, it's very interesting that we're being led by the rest of the world now. The European banks and the U.K. in particular, that bastion of socialism is leading the United States. It used to be the other way around. The United States used to lead. There certainly is an important role for the government but that role in the United States of America is a free market economy is not to buy the banks. It is to get out of the way and let the banks make decisions based on the marketplace as, for example, Wells Fargo has been doing without any government interference.

ROBERTS: You know, they are in the State of Virginia. Our new polling shows Barack Obama is up by 10 points. You're polling at about 3 percent there. It would seem that the majority of people who are asked see him as the agent of change not you. I mean, what are you hoping the impact of your campaign will be there in Virginia and also in Georgia where I guess you're polling the highest at about 4 percent.

BARR: Well, we're actually polling in double digits up in New Hampshire and about 10 percent out in Nevada and so forth. So we're doing well in selected states around the country. But there's a lot more at stake here than just winning the election. That would be nice but we recognize it's a long shot.

What we hope to do is what we did last night in a program and what I've been doing across the commonwealth here and in other states over the last several weeks and that is bringing the message of a real choice, real change to this election.