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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Murder Case Developments
Aired October 16, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The tot mom defense spokesperson goes on national TV and refers to little Caylee`s death. Translation? Even the defense mouthpiece slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead. This while mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy insist little Caylee was kidnapped and is still alive. The defense now, as usual, blaming the media.
Mom Casey facing formal charges, including murder one. Without a body, prosecutors building a case against tot mom Casey with state-of-the- art forensics and reams of mom Casey`s lies, but will it stick? The DA yet to announce if the Florida death penalty will be sought. Mom Casey Anthony in protective custody behind bars tonight. The judge orders forensic testing will go forward, squashing the defense demand that all testing stop immediately, as Texas Equusearch pulls out of Orlando after no cooperation with the Anthony family. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, is facing first-degree murder charges in the disappearance and presumed death of her little girl, Caylee. Todd Black, the spokesman for Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and his firm had made mention of little Caylee and he said in there that we`re dealing with the loss of a life of a little girl. And here`s what he has to say concerning that very comment, releasing a statement to us, saying that remark is being taken out of context. Our position remains clear that Caylee is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive, and we`re actively looking for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony is charged with first-degree murder of the death of her child. So for him to say that this case is about the death of a child or what will happen to Casey isn`t exactly an inaccurate statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police on high alert, a 6-year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, who was kidnapped at gunpoint. Police say three male suspects came to the boy`s home in the early morning Wednesday and got in by posing as police officers. That`s when police say they tied and gagged Cole`s mother and the mother`s friend and began searching the apartment for money. When there was no money to be found, the suspects kidnapped little Cole. Police are desperate to find Cole and are concerned for his safety.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the Amber Alert went out and as soon as this photograph was received at the center, we did a 90-mile radius of every motel, hotel, truck stop, trucking company, everybody that`s dispatched by computer, like trucking companies, mass transit kind of thing. That child`s photo was given to all of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona have all been alerted to the kidnapping, with some suggestion the kidnappers may take the child to Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now. Even still, just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounds like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl but the loss of whatever`s going happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail, or whatever he said, the Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black. In doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s gone so far downhill and it`s become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.
CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter`s still out there and she`s alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB news talk 1150. Mark, I`ve watched the clip several times. I don`t think that anyone was being jocular. No one was making light of the situation at all.
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, the deal is, it has just erupted into a media firestorm today, Nancy. This took place on Tuesday night on CNN Headline News, when Mr. Black made mention -- and we`re quoting -- "a loss of life" of this little girl. Then Mr. Black was heard hesitating ever so slightly, then trying to backtrack on his statement.
It was an exchange with a guest that we have on this show, Mike Brooks. But this afternoon, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, holding a news conference, saying yes, he was taken out of context and that Mr. Black is not a lawyer.
GRACE: Joining me right now, former fed with the FBI -- apparently, you started the whole thing, Mike Brooks. But I think it`s very significant, when the defense`s own team, who is saying the little girl is alive, be it in Texas, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, Florida, wherever, to come out and talk about, quote, "the loss of Caylee`s life."
BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And there was nothing at all taken out of context. And they said, you know, what I was saying was a joke. This was earlier in "Prime News." You know, I`m CNN`s law enforcement analyst, and I`m very, very serious about this case and I`m sickened by this case. And what I said, that Cindy Anthony was -- still continued to drink the Casey Kool-Aid, I was implying that she`s still believing what her daughter is telling her, despite the mounds of evidence against her.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live right now. Tot mom Casey Anthony has been moved to protective custody behind bars. Specifically, what does that mean, Brooks, protective custody?
BROOKS: It means that she`s by herself. She`s in a cell all by herself, doesn`t have any contact with any of the other inmates in the facility. You know, there`s a possibility that they believe that she could be in some danger because there kind of might have been threats. That`s why they put them in protective custody. And it`s a very, very high level of security.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there at the Orlando jail. Explain to me what her living conditions are.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s a 12-and-a-half by seven (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Natisha, could you speak up? Natisha, I can`t hear you . Speak up, please.
LANCE: Yes, absolutely. She`s in a 12-and-a-half by 7-foot cell. She has a desk and a stool in her cell also. She has a bed. She has a sink. She has a toilet. Also, she has one hour a day where she can go take a shower. She can sit in the day room. Also, she has one hour a day where she could possibly go to the recreational area. She can also check out books from the library. And previously, when she has been incarcerated, they have said that she was a very ferocious (SIC) reader.
GRACE: And has she had any visitors, Natisha?
LANCE: She did. She had a visit last night from her attorney, Jose Baez. However, there have not been any visits that have been scheduled by her family for any type of video visitations, at this point.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, child advocate, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing Arguments" on WGNY.
You know, Peter, you`re in a lot of trouble when your own spokesperson says the victim is dead.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he went off the party line, Nancy, and it`s a very difficult party line to stick to. No reasonable person really believes that this child is alive at this point, and he just forgot. And really, the problem is that they probably shouldn`t be trying to play this in the media anymore. It`s over.
GRACE: You know, now is the time for complete silence on both sides, not as if the prosecution has made any public statements anyway. To Susan Moss, what about it?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The science is going to prove whether this child is alive or dead. And let me tell you something. If Caylee`s fluid is found in her trunk, the defense`s efforts for acquittal is sunk. This is a case about science. I think the science is going to show that it was her hair in the trunk, it`s her fluid on the bag that was found in the trunk, and it was her decomposing body that was found in the air in her car.
GRACE: And here`s the thing. To Michael Mazzariello. Michael, even though the defense spokesperson has said on national TV, on this network, that little Caylee is dead -- he refers to her "loss of life" -- the jury will never hear about that, will they.
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they won`t. And it`s a classic example, Nancy, as you know -- loose lips sink ships. I mean, the defense attorney`s got to button up everybody, tell everyone to be quiet.
GRACE: Yes. My question is, will it come into evidence?
MAZZARIELLO: No, absolutely not.
GRACE: Why?
MAZZARIELLO: Because it`s not admissible. It has nothing to do with the case, no bearing to the case.
GRACE: Susan, why won`t it come into evidence?
MOSS: Well, unfortunately, it`s not a party admission and -- unless he can be shown to be a direct agent of her, but even then, it`s going to be a close call, and I don`t think the judge is going to take that risk.
GRACE: Well, obviously, Peter Odom, it`s based on hearsay. The spokesperson doesn`t know by firsthand account. He did not see, hear, taste, touch or smell anything to convince him little Caylee is dead. That is direct evidence. Hearsay would be based on someone telling you that. That`s why it`s not going to come into evidence. Unless the spokesperson knows himself that she is dead, the jury will never know that the defense essentially blurted out the victim is dead. I mean, their whole premise is, She`s alive and we`re looking for her.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The statement is not attributable to her. My prediction, though, is, Nancy, by the time this case goes to trial, it will not be about whether Caylee is dead or alive but how she died.
GRACE: Excellent point, Peter Odom.
Out to the lines. Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a quick question for you. I was wondering -- I know they checked the cell tower for her pings and they kind of realized she was out by the airport, but do you think they`ve checked for any other pings that line up with hers that would say there was someone with her?
GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mike Brooks? This is your expertise.
BROOKS: No, I would say so, Nancy. You know, they thought they had the pings going back to that area that Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch was searching, but nothing came up with that. But I`m sure they`ve gone over each of those pings on those particular days in question with a fine- toothed comb.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared. And I know I`m running out of options (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.
CINDY ANTHONY: They have not been taking Caylee`s tips, which I`ve been saying that from day one, but I have been ridiculed and prosecuted.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call or three phone calls before someone actually showed up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: That was the hardest thing she ever had to do. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for -- whatever it might be. That hurts her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black, and I`ve spoken to Todd Black personally. And in doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, we played you the clip and no one was joking about little Caylee`s disappearance. In fact, the defense team spokesperson goes on national TV, on this network, and makes a statement that little Caylee is dead while they are arguing to the court that she is alive and they`re looking for her.
I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One. He`s standing by at the Orlando, Florida, jail. Speaking of the defense, there are mounting reports that the defense attorney, Baez, will come off the case because of lack of trial experience. Did Baez address that?
RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, he did, Nancy, because under Florida statute, a lawyer here must have at least five years of trial room (ph) experience in order to qualify to sit on a capital murder case. So he says that there are associates within his firm that he can tap who do have the experience and the background necessary that will allow them to stay as the lead counsel for Casey Anthony, if and when this case goes to trial.
GRACE: What exactly is Baez`s trial experience? How many cases has he tried?
O`NEILL: I don`t know the total number. He`s had three of the more high-profile cases in town.
GRACE: No, I`m talking about trials. Trials.
O`NEILL: I`m trying to think of the specific trial number. It doesn`t come to mind immediately.
GRACE: Well, you know what? Nobody...
O`NEILL: I have not covered him in the courtroom.
GRACE: Yes. To -- and that is your beat.
O`NEILL: Right.
GRACE: Mark Williams of WNDB, what about it? I asked you this before. How many cases has this guy tried?
WILLIAMS: We know of three cases. One was a murder case in nearby Lake County.
GRACE: OK. That`s one.
WILLIAMS: And the gentleman was found guilty.
GRACE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But obviously, it wasn`t a capital case. Secondly, he defended the mayor of Kissimmee, Mr. Gant down there...
GRACE: You told me that was a settlement.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that was a settlement.
GRACE: That`s not a trial, Mark. We talked about that.
WILLIAMS: I know, Nancy.
GRACE: So we`re down to two.
WILLIAMS: I`m just throwing it out there. Third one, he defended a woman, an Elvira Garcia (ph), who allegedly took a 6-month-old...
GRACE: Did it go to trial?
WILLIAMS: Not that we know of.
GRACE: Well, then why did you tell me three trials? That`s one trial, and the guy was convicted. Help me out here. Throw me a bone, Williams!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: No, I mean it.
WILLIAMS: Well...
GRACE: You know what? Let`s go to the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Peter Odom, Michael Mazzariello. He absolutely cannot, Susan Moss, I don`t care how great of a lawyer he may be, try a death penalty case unless he has trial experience under his belt. End of story. I don`t care how many cases he settled. That is the law.
MOSS: That is the law, and that`s a law for a good reason. You are talking about a person`s life. At the end of this case, her life could be absolutely in jeopardy. You don`t leave that to a novice. This is not moot court or moot trial or mock trial. You`ve got to know what you`re doing. You`ve got to do a good job, or else the whole trial can...
GRACE: We`re not playing tetherball out on the playground. You don`t get a redo in a death penalty case.
And back to you, Mark Williams. Did he say -- let me get this straight that there was someone death penalty-qualified to try the case, but that they want it to remain secret at this juncture?
WILLIAMS: Yes. The attorney said he didn`t want to be identified whatsoever.
GRACE: Why? Why?
WILLIAMS: Who knows? Maybe threats. There`s -- lawyers are great people. Sometimes they have little idiosyncracies, like they don`t want to be pressured, they don`t want their name out there.
GRACE: You know what, Mark? I`ve never heard of a single lawyer that did not want his or her name out there to try to get cases.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: And I hear laughter in all the studios all around this country right now because you know it`s true. You know, Mark Williams, you better give me a straight answer the next time I come to you...
WILLIAMS: OK.
GRACE: ... because that`s complete BS, and that is the technical legal term.
Take a listen to what Baez said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We have a team of lawyers working on the Casey Marie Anthony case, one of which is death penalty- qualified. He`s asked that his name not be mentioned at this time because -- quite frankly, I can`t blame him. And should the death penalty be sought, which is a big maybe, we will be prepared to handle it and move forward in the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to the lawyers. To you, Peter Odom. I`ve never in my life -- and I`ve seen plenty of them -- seen a death penalty defense lawyer say, I want to be anonymous, because you know what? A death penalty defense lawyer says, yes, I`m trying a death penalty because I believe this person has a right to a great defense and I`m going give it to them. I`ve never in my life heard a lawyer try to hide that they are defending a case.
ODOM: I agree with you, Nancy, it is remarkable. But remember, this case is remarkable. It has received an unprecedented amount of media attention, and maybe that`s affecting his behavior. Who knows?
GRACE: All the more better, Michael Mazzariello. You know how it works with defense lawyers.
MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely. And having tried a death penalty case here in New York that started off as death penalty, we had the Capital Defenders -- they specialize in the death penalty case -- to help us if we needed any help with the paperwork and if we didn`t know what we were doing. It`s a serious charge. He has to know what he`s doing. And the judge will take care of it, Nancy. If he`s not qualified, the judge will second seat him with an experienced attorney.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of it?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s the situation. When I was back there, there was nobody there qualified to try a murder case of this magnitude. And that`s why they had brought in Mr. Walsh (ph) -- I believe his name is Mike Walsh -- from Miami because, you know, three years -- most states require five years, as Florida does. And that was discussed on several occasions. This sounds like another mistake by Todd Black or Todd Bunch or whatever his name is.
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`re taking your calls live. But to tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a young mom vanishing, Miami, Florida, 24-year-old Lily Aramburo reported missing June 2007 from a condo she shared with a live-in. According to reports, since her disappearance, the condo has been found desolate, full of trash, appliances missing. She`s 4-11, 108 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, tattoo lower back. If you have info, call Miami-Dade police, 305-418-7200.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a missing child, and I don`t want anyone to stop looking for Caylee because they think that we think she`s deceased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive and we`re actively looking for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Texas Equusearch has left the area of Orlando after no cooperation, according to them, from the Anthony family. Back out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Natisha, are police planning to start a search? Are they rounding up volunteers?
LANCE: At this point, Nancy, police are just following up those tips that have come in and working with all the information that they have at this point. There is not an active search. But when the time becomes available, they will be doing that.
GRACE: And to Mark Williams with WNDB. Has the defense filed for a change of venue?
WILLIAMS: Not as of yet. There`s -- you know, the Baez office has been very silent. You know, he never even asked for a speedy trial on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focused on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...
CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee because we don`t know where Caylee...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s absolutely nothing to find out. Not even what I told the detectives.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Well, you know, everything you`re telling them is a lie.
C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think your sister is being truthful?
L. ANTHONY: To the best of her ability right now, I do. And frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think that she was trying to cooperate with me.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know my daughter is not leveling with me. I know what she`s done in the past.
You know, I got to believe her that she knows where -- everything is OK.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at. If you just told them the truth and not lied about everything...
I trust Casey and I love her and I support her and that I understand, and every day that goes by I know exactly how hard it is that she`s giving up her life to protect her child.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Richard Grund, the father of Jesse Grund, As you will recall, he was engaged to tot mom Casey Anthony and was actually told that Caylee was his biological child. That it turned out to be false, that he had fallen in love with the little girl.
Mr. Grund, thank you for being with us. What are your feelings now that formal charges have come down?
RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Well, Nancy, thank you for having me on. You know we saw where this was going. We`ve watched the evidence. We`ve watched the trail. We knew it had to -- as long as Casey never said where Caylee is or who has her, this is the only direction it could go in, but we`re -- you know if anybody thinks that we`re happy or we`re celebrating, we`re not.
GRACE: You have said that if Caylee`s actually dead you believe it was the result of an accident? Do you still believe that?
GRUND: I absolutely believe that. I have never changed from that. I do not believe at any time that Casey Anthony would do deliberate harm to her daughter and almost anybody that knows Casey from friends to family say the same things. So I have not -- I have not backed off of that.
GRACE: In your wildest imaginings, how can you explain chloroform in her car trunk and her computer searches for chloroform?
GRUND: I think -- and Rob Dick can give you a better explanation of this, I believe -- and you know, let me state that since Caylee went missing I have done nothing but talked to Leonard, talked to anybody I can to try to find her. I have neglected in my life.
GRACE: Scenario. You say it`s an accident, how can that be with this evidence?
GRUND: OK, because I believe that Casey was working on a way to get away from her mother and I think that she had an exit strategy and something went wrong.
GRACE: OK. Well, that`s so vague I don`t even know what you`re talking about.
GRUND: What I mean is, I think -- and Rob can explain this better -- I think Casey was going to find a way to get away from her mother and it might have included faking a kidnapping.
GRACE: OK. Well, then that`s not an accident. You do a kidnapping and you use chloroform, that`s an aggravated assault and when they get her.
GRUND: If she used the chloroform.
GRACE: . (INAUDIBLE) murder.
GRUND: You know, Nancy, what we`re dealing with right now is a whole lot of speculation. We don`t know what happened.
GRACE: That is certainly true.
GRUND: If they find Caylee and there`s no evidence of chloroform all that goes out the window.
GRACE: Well, there is evidence of chloroform. But you`re right.
GRUND: In the car.
GRACE: . we don`t where Caylee is. That is absolutely correct.
I want to go to Bethany Marshall -- Bethany, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."
Dr. Marshall, you heard the press conference today where the defense spokesperson refers to Caylee`s death. Freudian slip?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Freudian slip because you know whoever acknowledges little Casey is dead has to acknowledge on some level that Casey could be a murderer.
And as far as the Kool-Aid reference, you know, that reminds me Jim Jones, the sociopath and cult leader who had homicidal intent, got all of the followers to drink the Kool-Aid.
The reference is not inappropriate. I mean Casey has fit a sociopathic profile. She probably has homicidal intent. We`ll find out when this goes to court and she`s been like pipe piper in terms of persuading everybody to go along with her up until this point.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Ellie in Utah, hi Ellie.
ELLIE, UTAH RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
ELLIE: I was just wondering if the police have any information on where Casey would have obtained the chloroform from?
GRACE: What do we know, Mark Williams?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she`s obviously searched the chloroform word in her computer, but the deal is, is that you can mail order or get chloroform over the Internet. You can order it over the Internet. All you need is a credit card.
GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely correct about that.
To Sue in New York, hi, Sue.
SUE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is with -- I don`t think that it`s been decided yet as to whether this is going to be a death penalty case or not.
GRACE: Right.
SUE: But showing -- being we`ve seen her pattern of continuing lying, showing complete emotionless.
GRACE: Right.
SUE: . and nothing coming from this woman. I show more emotion when my animal`s gone missing, what kind of impact is that going have as far as them deciding as to whether they`re going go for the death penalty?
GRACE: Susan Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to create a big impact. I think the fact of her lack of empathy is going to show the prosecutor that you really have to go all the way with her.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Law, consultant -- paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.
Dr. Kobilinsky, when a defense -- well, you know the judge has ruled the state can go forward with forensic testing. The defense has tried to stop all forensic testing which is a crazy motion.
When you observe testing by the state, what is your role?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I`m there to make sure that the testing is done following the procedures that the laboratory has and that have been validated.
And to see that the evidence is not in endangered, that it might be contaminated, that it might be consumed when it was not necessary to do that consumption, and basically to make observations to convince myself that the results are reliable.
GRACE: Well, what are you doing? In the middle of the state`s testing you go, no, stop. You know, you`re not doing correctly?
KOBILINSKY: No, I don`t know that that is the case. I`ve done this kind of procedure before and we have informal discussions, but I think the judge has indicated that the defense expert has no right to discuss these kinds of procedures with the person doing the work, and I have no problem with that.
I just want to make sure that the information that comes out of this testing is something that we can trust so that there is facts that a jury, if it does go to trial, that a jury can trust.
GRACE: You know these words are going to come back to haunt you, Kobilinsky. You`ll see.
Everybody, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to beautiful Jena, there she is, one evening at the show. And to my brother, Mac Grace. Here he is in his younger years. There he is over in the left and here he is with his wife, my sister-in-law, Jan.
Happy birthday, Jena and Mac.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this picture of the boy. This is who police are looking for. They say that as many as three men knocked on the family`s door in Las Vegas yesterday morning. They claimed to be cops.
The mom opened the door because of that and that`s when these men burst in and demanded money. When the intruders didn`t find any money, police say they tied up Cole`s mother and her fiance and then they kidnapped Cole at gunpoint.
A neighbor says that Cole`s mother managed to crawl out to the sidewalk. Her mouth was duct tape, her hands were tied with electrical ties, and investigators believe the family was targeted.
Police have been going door to door using helicopters, patrol cars, everything they can to find Cole. They have not found him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Please take a look at this little boy. He`s just 6 years old. His name is Cole Puffinburger. The tip line number is 702-828-3111, Las Vegas Metro Police Department.
There he is, 3`11", just 48 pounds, blond hair, blue ice.
What an outrageous set of circumstances, to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted.
MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: This is. This is horrible, Nancy. And what police tell me -- just got off the phone with them again -- that this is not a random attack. This appears to be brainstormed. It was set, it was planned and it was actually executed, unfortunately.
And from what investigators tell me is that these men evidently went into the home looking for the grandfather of Cole. The grandfather hasn`t lived there since May of 2007. And when they couldn`t find him they started questioning Cole`s mom, and she didn`t have any information and that`s when they apparently tied up, you know, Cole`s mom and also her fiance, and then they took Cole and they left.
GRACE: To Ky Plaskon, with -- with KXNT News Radio -- Ky, thank you for being with us. What do they mean it`s not random and any idea where the little boy is? Do they really believe he`s headed to Mexico?
KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Well, they really don`t know where he`s headed, but they have got the FBI involved to try and track down these people -- this trash.
They might have been looking for the grandfather from what we heard. Just an hour ago they`ve released why the -- this family, they believe, was targeted, which they said it was a drug nexus.
So drugs may have been sold out of this house. People may have been going there to look for that actual drug money at the time and now this young boy is caught in the middle of all of this, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what? Frankly, Ky, I don`t care what the motive is, this little boy is missing, taken out of his own home. I don`t know what the grandfather was into at some time in the past. All I know is he wasn`t there. He hadn`t lived there in a long time and this little boy was taken at gunpoint.
Take a look at little Cole.
Out to Captain Vincent Cannito with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Captain, thank you for being with us. Can you give us a description of the perps?
CAPT. VINCENT CANNITO, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Yes, Nancy. Right now we`re dealing with three -- from what we have Hispanic male adults. The only clear description we have on one of them is approximately a Hispanic male in his early 30s, approximately 5`7", 170 pounds, shoulder length black hair, slick back.
GRACE: Wait a minute, were they wearing masks?
CANNITO: No, they weren`t.
GRACE: And that`s the best we`ve got? How about a composite?
CANNITO: You know, unfortunately, Nancy, when you`re dealing with a situation like this and given the magnitude and the violent nature of this incident right here for the daughter and the boyfriend to give us a very clear description, we haven`t been able to get one from them.
GRACE: OK. Captain.
CANNITO: Yes.
GRACE: That doesn`t sound right to me that they can`t give a composite description of the perps? I mean, they pulled a gun on them, they had to tie them up. They were tied up so they had to get close to the perpetrators.
CANNITO: Yes. Well, Nancy, again, as we`re asking these questions of the people that were in the home and we`re trying to get the information from them, we`re asking the same questions.
GRACE: You know, Captain, I read you loud and clear. I don`t care what may be hinky about the case, this boy is missing.
Now, Captain, do we know the boy was there? Do we know he was really there in the home?
CANNITO: Through all of the investigative leads that we`ve been following up on, we do. We do know that this child was actually kidnapped.
GRACE: Oh, Captain, you what? I was hoping so much it was some kind of a fantastic hoax. Look at this little boy taken at gunpoint out of his home.
We are taking your calls live, to Jennifer in North Carolina, hi, Jennifer.
JENNIFER, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. We love you.
GRACE: Thank you, dear, and thank you to my friends in North Carolina for watching and calling in so often.
What`s your question, dear?
JENNIFER: You said that they tied up the mom`s fiance. Do you know anything about the boy`s father?
GRACE: The boy`s father. I do know -- actually let me ask Ky Plaskon that with KXNT. Didn`t he show up a short time after and completely broke down in tears when he learned what had happened?
PLASKON: He showed up running and crying into the house. That`s all we know at this point.
He was divorced from his wife at the time. His -- Cole`s mother was there at the house with her fiance. They went through this whole ordeal, but now the father is, obviously, having to deal with it himself, too.
GRACE: So how soon after the incident did the father show up?
PLASKON: We`re not really sure what -- at what point he showed up, but it was between now and Wednesday at 7:15 in the morning.
Let me tell you they didn`t issue the AMBER Alert until about noon and this happened at 7:15 in the morning. They didn`t issue the AMBER Alert because they didn`t have a good description. They still don`t know what kind of car these guys are driving. They don`t know even which direction they may be headed.
GRACE: You know Captain Cannito is us from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.
Captain, didn`t anybody outside see anything? Did this actually happen at 7:00 a.m.?
CANNITO: Yes. This happened at approximately 7:23 in the morning. I`d like to get back to the AMBER Alert issue. What we did was when we got the call initially we went out there, patrol officers, the primary responders, then they called out the detectives.
We go out, we canvassed the area. We look at neighboring stores, any homes that may have video. We go on view the video to see if there was anything that would indicate the activities that we`re investigating at the time.
Now this call came in at 07:23 in the morning. The first unit responded at 07:30. That was the first detective was called out and actually responded on the scene at 08:09. At that time, the investigative process is taking course. We requested the AMBER Alert once all the information was established and verified, investigation was under way.
At approximately 11:30 is when the AMBER Alert was requested.
You have to understand, again, as was pointed out that the vehicle -- there is no vehicle description and under normal circumstances that`s a very critical piece of information for an AMBER Alert to get authorized to the state.
GRACE: Exactly.
CANNITO: But there is -- but there is latitude and flexibility with that based on the severity of the situation and dealing with the urgency to the child, the danger to the child or the person in question.
In this case, again, this is one of those cases, this is as bad as it gets. So the states have been absolutely phenomenal with the AMBER Alert and, again, to explain a little bit about that AMBER Alert process, the reason it is, as difficult as it is to get one of those on, is because we don`t want to minimize the impact that an AMBER Alert has.
But to address the issue of time to get that Amber Alert on, and you`re looking at several hours and that is the course of the preliminary investigation and in very short order with all the units that were working that case.
GRACE: Hey, Captain.
CANNITO: I got that AMBER Alert on as quickly as possible. Yes.
GRACE: I just heard a statement that somehow somebody in the home at some point in the past may have been involved in drugs. What do you know?
CANNITO: This is definitely a situation that is initiated due to a drug nexus. Now we have been working this case, again, since 7:30 yesterday morning. We are following up on a number of leads that have come in through the media, that have come in through a non-emergency line.
GRACE: Oh Captain.
CANNITO: And.
GRACE: Captain, I`m just sick. I`m sick that the conduct of adults - - let`s go to Bethany Marshall. The conduct of adults, I guess, the grandfather is who they`re referring to at some point being involved in drugs that somehow that has resulted in this little boy`s kidnap at gunpoint?
How irresponsible for parents to somehow expose their children to that.
MARSHALL: It is unconscionable that any parent would engage in any activity at all.
GRACE: Listen, Bethany.
MARSHALL: . that would put their child at risk.
GRACE: Bethany, Bethany, last Christmas.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: . somebody came to the Christmas dinner and I smelled smoke on them, I`m like, uh-uh, no, sorry, get out.
MARSHALL: Well, Nancy.
GRACE: Nicotine affects SIDS.
MARSHALL: I know.
GRACE: Sudden infant death syndrome. But there`s a parent.
MARSHALL: I know.
GRACE: . that would allow a doper in the house with a child?
MARSHALL: And I`ll do one worse on this, the fact that they`re potentially part of a drug cartel, according to one news report, Mexican Nationals, the culture of terrorism over there, the beheadings, the rapes, the tortures, the fact that these parents, it`s not just that these parents are smoking, they`re exposing their child to that whole culture and that whole way of life.
That is what is so unconscionable and irresponsible.
GRACE: Peter Odom, Peter Odom, if this is true, the whole kit and caboodle needs to be investigated. They have exposed to boy to anybody that`s a doper.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, there are states that have criminal penalties for just exposing children to things like this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, we are comfortable in saying that this kidnapping has a very definite drug nexus involved with the family. Right now, we`re at approximately 33 hours into this investigation. Today we have interviewed dozens, literally dozens of individuals that have some form of information or connection to this incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Elizabeth, hi, Elizabeth.
ELIZABETH, CALLER: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
ELIZABETH: I have -- want to know if they have found the grandfather, where is the grandfather and have they talked to him?
GRACE: To Captain Vincent Cannito with the Vegas Police Department, what do we know?
CANNITO: Right now we`re following up on a number of different leads involving all members of his family with regards to any one in particular or specifics such as a grandfather.
GRACE: OK.
CANNITO: . or what have you. Again.
GRACE: Were there any prints, Captain? Were prints taken?
CANNITO: Well, when we got into the -- to the residence, there was some -- evidence that was taken out of the home. But again, due to the nature of this investigation and the sensitivity of this case, dealing with a 6-year-old child, I know that you respect the fact that.
GRACE: Right, I do.
CANNITO: . there are certain details with this case that clearly we can`t.
GRACE: Got it.
CANNITO: . jeopardize.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, what do you think?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I think, you know, the captain`s right, you can`t comment on that, but I agree you Nancy, I`m sure the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, (INAUDIBLE) Department, along with the FBI, I`m sure the DEA is going to get involved in this because they operate cases all the time before.
GRACE: Have you ever heard of anything to do with a drug deal, a child being taken? I have not.
BROOKS: No, I -- in recent memory, Nancy, I cannot think of anything like this. I mean just a horrible, horrible thing to this innocent boy.
GRACE: Let`s go back to that tip line, 702-828-3111.
Look at Cole, everybody, taken at gunpoint, out of his home.
I want to stop and remember Army Sergeant Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, 26, Port Irwin, California, on a second tour, also served Korea. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal. Loved learning new things. Remembered for devotion, loyalty, courage.
Leaves behind parents, widow Amber, children Amy and Guadalupe.
Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us, and a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Ann, Lynne, Melody, April, aren`t they beautiful?
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
