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Nancy Grace
Casey`s On-Line Searches for Chloroform Recipes
Aired October 22, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Just released, police reveal the suspicious computer searches were actually for on-line recipes, recipes for chloroform at the time little Caylee goes missing. That`s right, tot mom Casey Anthony on line, looking up chloroform recipes. Home-made chloroform, can you imagine? Significant amounts of that powerful chemical solution discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.
And tonight, the stunning theory emerges that mom Casey actually drove 11 days with Caylee`s body in the trunk of her car, this as reports from inside the investigation reveal the crime scene believed to involve the pool, the pool in the Anthonys` back yard.
In the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy go on national television to announce Caylee is alive, the Anthonys yet to make one visit to the jailhouse or speak to her by phone since her arrest for Caylee`s murder, the Anthonys claiming leads still pouring in, even setting up their own private tip line.
And more money lands in mom Casey`s jail account, clearing the way for high-end snacks like crabmeat and shrimp cocktail, makeup, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin care products, all for her private jail cell. Tonight, as the search for Caylee intensifies, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, and authorities believe evidence suggests that Caylee is likely dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why haven`t Casey Anthony`s own parents visited her in the slammer, especially if they think Casey had nothing to do with the daughter`s disappearance? This morning, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony -- they told the "Today" show it`s because Caylee is still alive.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have returns that indicate human decomposition was present and located in the defendant`s vehicle. We had higher hopes of finding her alive, and that hope has somewhat diminished.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!
CINDY ANTHONY: Continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) not telling you where her daughter is?
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Correct.
They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris (ph) last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris`s house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They have named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance. Morris`s car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris. Newly-released search warrants indicate investigators are now looking at Scott and Kelly Morris`s bank records. The warrants also show the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the walls and once threw a computer out the window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure there`s people probably are afraid. You know, I -- for whatever reason -- I don`t know for what reason. Who they`re afraid or what they`re afraid of, we`re not sure of. But we want to get Kelly. We want to know where Kelly is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform around the time Caylee went missing. Police have already said that evidence shows a high level of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact is, not one family member has visited Casey in jail since her arrest on murder charges. Child neglect charges were dropped, so that means, obviously, they`re focusing in on the murder charge. But yet in the interview on the "Today" show, George and Cindy Anthony basically insist little Caylee`s still alive. They even blame the media and police for pushing some conspiracy against their daughter.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, you`re doing things to help us find your daughter, right? And I want you to tell me how lying to us is getting to that end. How is lying to us helping to find your daughter faster?
CASEY ANTHONY: It isn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then why would you do that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Saying I don`t know and telling you that I just dropped her off, and that was the last time that I`ve seen her -- even starting with that, everybody else is, like, Well, and what happened after that?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our ultimate goal is to find Caylee. We`re going to do everything we can. We`ve been doing everything we can to find Caylee. I need you on my side.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I want to be on your side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless whether she`s alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, we all knew that there were searches for chloroform on tot mom Casey Anthony`s home computer, her laptop, to be specific. But recipes for chloroform? That`s the first I`m hearing of that.
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. I guess we were under the impression she was looking to buy it, but what we found out was she was actually looking at how to make it. And we found more than a million Web sites on line to give you the instructions to make it. You can make it with household chemicals that you probably have in your house right now.
GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance. We had you look it up. How do you make chloroform? How difficult is it?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s very easy, Nancy. You can use bleach or pool shock (ph) to make it, acetone, as well as lots of ice. And there`s another way you can make it, too, with alcohol or hypochloride.
GRACE: OK. Part of your answer cut out. Repeat. How do you make chloroform?
LANCE: There`s two different ways you can make it. One of them is with bleach or pool shock, acetone and ice.
GRACE: Wait, wa-wait. Bleach or what?
LANCE: Pool shock?
GRACE: OK. Go ahead.
LANCE: Acetone and ice. And the other way to make it is with alcohol and hypochloride.
GRACE: Now, how do you get all those ingredients? How difficult is it to get those ingredients?
LANCE: It`d be very easy to get those ingredients, Nancy. You could go to...
GRACE: OK, let`s go through them again. What are they?
LANCE: Bleach, which you could get...
GRACE: OK. Easy to do.
LANCE: ... from any convenience store. Very easy to do. Acetone, not the kind you use for nail polish remover, but just regular straight acetone.
GRACE: Where would you find that?
LANCE: You could find that at a local supply store, as well as a drug store.
GRACE: Go ahead.
LANCE: And then ice, which you can get from your refrigerator at home.
GRACE: But wait a minute. You named a lot of other ingredients to start with.
LANCE: Bleach or pool shock were the first time, and then acetone and then ice. That`s one method.
GRACE: That`s it?
LANCE: That`s it.
GRACE: That`s it?
LANCE: That`s it.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when we first learned of these computer searches on tot mom`s laptop for chloroform, the defense bar did a somersault, claiming there would be a receipt -- there would be evidence of an on-line purchase of chloroform. Now all I have to do is trot down to the Duane Reed (ph) and I, too, can make chloroform?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Down to Duane Reed or to Wal-Mart, Nancy, to get that acetone. Absolutely. It`s not very hard to make at all. But one of the things -- it`s very, very -- you`ve got to be very, very careful because it can turn into some other -- other, as I call it ethyl-methyl bad stuff, you know, such as phosgene, if it`s allowed to sit in the sunlight for too long, if it`s not cool. I mean, it`s very unstable stuff, Nancy. It`s not something that you want to play with. And you know, but you can get all kinds of different strengths of it, depending on how you mix it.
GRACE: And let`s go to our psychotherapist, Dr. Stacy Kaiser joining us out of LA. Let`s just step back for a moment. Forget how easy we now know it is to make chloroform. What mom is on line getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad, but chloroform? Who`s on line looking at the recipe for chloroform? Help me, Doctor.
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I mean, this is a mother who was desperate, who was probably feeling helpless and hopeless, and was trying to figure out a way that she could do something to her daughter without being too hurtful and harmful and bloody.
GRACE: Now, OK, I`m not quite sure what you mean, how chloroform fits into your theory of not too hurtful. You`re talking about a 2-year-old little girl -- 2-year-old girl, chloroform, really shouldn`t be in the same sentence under any circumstances.
Speaking of what you just said, other and more unusual theories have emerged. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO? The theories as to what may have happened to little Caylee are now being revealed.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, one of the theories was actually printed in "The Globe," and that states that on June 15, that Casey got in a fight with her parents. She left her house and wanted to go to Tony Lazzaro (ph), her boyfriend`s, house. He said that she could come, but not with Caylee. So the theory is that she placed Caylee in the trunk with a chloroform rag close to her, and basically, overnight that she succumbed and died from the chloroform, then actually drove around for about 11 days with the body in the trunk.
GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven!
PETRIMOULX: Yes, there`s another theory also from "The National Enquirer," and in that one, they theorize that Caylee drowned in a pool, and her decomposing body mixed with pool water basically in the trunk of the car, formed the chloroform that was eventually tested for.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. OK, I know, Koby (ph), that you`re already hired by the defense. You`re going to have a tough time convincing a jury that chloroform formed naturally in the back of the trunk, especially in those heavy, heavy, dense -- the density in which it was found.
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, Nancy, in one of our prior interviews, I had mentioned that you can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don`t know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there! Right there! BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Koby? Have you done that by accident?
KOBILINSKY: I said bleach and alcohol -- beer, wine, liquor.
GRACE: And how would you accidentally do that?
KOBILINSKY: Oh, very simple. You could have a spill...
GRACE: Really? Have you ever done it by accident?
KOBILINSKY: I don`t know. I hope -- I don`t think so. But it`s possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...
CINDY ANTHONY: But are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: It was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hits you like a wave. Whatever it was, it was very potent.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First glance, you thought this may be the smell of a body or decomposition?
GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we had to do is Google "How do you make chloroform," and we found more than a million Web sites with instructions. On the first one we found, page one had an explicit warning about chloroform`s dangers, calling the chemical extremely dangerous and unpredictable and warning never to allow children to come near chloroform. FBI lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey`s car, where investigators say Caylee`s body had been. And there was a mysterious stain in the trunk, along with Caylee`s hairs and dirt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s just another piece of circumstantial evidence that`s going to form the chain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Stunning theories emerge as to what little Caylee went through just before her death, a death that is now part of a multi-count indictment handed down by a Florida grand jury. Now we learn that those on-line searches regarding chloroform were actually how-to searches, recipes for the sometimes deadly sedative.
We`re taking your calls live. First let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. Susan Moss, how do you explain to a jury that while your client can`t get off her duff and go get a job, you know, go flip burgers at McDonald`s, just do something instead of sucking Mommy and Daddy dry, she`s got time to look up a recipe for chloroform?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I have no idea. She was searching for chloroform. What, was she remaking a Hitchcock film? There is no reasonable theory why she was searching how to make chloroform and then chloroform ends up in her trunk, along with the smell and decomposition of a dead body.
GRACE: Renee, how do you explain the search for this recipe? You want to pin it on Grandmommy and Granddaddy?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first you`re going to have to show that she was searching for the chloroform, not somebody else.
GRACE: Well, that`s what I just said, Renee. I said there`s only three people to blame it on, the grandparents or Casey Anthony.
ROCKWELL: You can`t -- you can`t prove that nobody else got on that computer, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. So your theory is the "SOD" -- some other dude -- did it. OK, I guess somebody snuck into the house and got on her laptop. Good try. Burris, come on, please throw us a bone.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m not going to deny that she may have done it. I don`t think that`s the way the case is going to turn. The question that I would see if I`m the defense lawyer, if that`s there, I think the theory is that she wasn`t trying to kill the kid. She wasn`t trying to kill him (SIC), so then the issue is, what kind of homicide is this, once you get down to it? And in my...
GRACE: So if she wasn`t trying to kill the kid, what was she doing?
BURRIS: Well, maybe she was just trying to keep the kid sedated while she was going to have fun that particular night.
GRACE: Wouldn`t that be a felony murder?
(CROSSTALK)
BURRIS: ... felony murder or not. I think it might be an involuntary manslaughter.
GRACE: Oh, hold on! Whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa! Wait! Wait!
BURRIS: And let me finish. Involuntary manslaughter. And based upon the fact that she did all the cover-up, that might escalate it up further. But in terms of looking at her intent at the time this homicide took place, I don`t think this is a first degree murder, even if she was looking for chloroform or not.
GRACE: Well, let me take Mr. John Burris, who is a veteran trial lawyer in the San Francisco area, to school.
BURRIS: Oh, I`ve been to school.
GRACE: Felony murder -- refresher course.
BURRIS: Well, you know...
GRACE: Felony -- uh! Uh! Uh! Felony murder is when you commit a felony. It could be rape. It could be aggravated assault. It could be a robbery. And during the commission of that felony, intentional or not, a death occurs. If she assaulted this child with chloroform and the child died, intentionally or not, that is felony murder. Agree or disagree, Mr. Burris?
BURRIS: I disagree with that. I do think that you have issues here, but it might be more of a negligence activity here than that.
GRACE: Negligence?
BURRIS: I don`t think there`s an intent to kill this kid. And I don`t think...
GRACE: She negligently...
BURRIS: ... there is intent to commit a fraud or not.
GRACE: ... looked up the recipe...
BURRIS: I think you have negligent conduct...
GRACE: ... for chloroform.
BURRIS: ... on her part. And then you go from there. I mean, if you say it`s not malice aforethought, or your theory is felony murder, that`s it. I`m not so sure that it`s necessarily felony murder. I think you`ve got more of an involuntary, maybe a second degree, if you say it was reckless disregard for human life. I`m just trying to figure out -- I`m the defense lawyer. I`m trying to figure out how I`m going to work this thing.
GRACE: OK. You know, I`m going to take you at your word. I understand. You`re just looking for an answer for Casey Anthony. I get it.
BURRIS: Absolutely.
GRACE: I get it. Let`s go out to Tim Miller and Leonard Padilla. As you all know, Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch, not only has had huge success in finding not only those people that have passed away, but living -- living people who have gone missing. Also Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, who is now joining in the search for little Caylee. Both gentlemen with us tonight.
Tim Miller, are you ready to tell me straightforwardly where you intend to start your search?
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. We`re -- conditions are right for the search now. The water`s down. It`s cooler outside.
GRACE: Where? Where? Where?
MILLER: The area that we could not finish up before, where the cell tower activity was.
GRACE: Ah, yes. Out near the airport. Everyone, you`re seeing just a few of the many, many people that Tim Miller`s group, Texas Equusearch -- all volunteers, I might add -- have recovered.
To Leonard Padilla, what about it? What makes you so interested in that particular area?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, on the -- on the 27th, I believe -- and I`m pretty sure that Rob`s correct -- she walked down from her boyfriend`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s, made a phone call to J.C. Penny, and then she spent 18 to 20 minutes in the cell tower area that Tim`s talking about. So if that`s where he leads us, that`s where we`re going to search. And we`ve got a lot of people out of the bail bond industry that have responded very positively to the search.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Tell everybody to keep looking for her. She`s alive, and we need everybody calling in those tips.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?
CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s still a chance that she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody give Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, and until all of the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is and satisfy in my mind that she`s not out there, I am not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just a few hours ago, the Anthony family, grandparents Cindy and George, appeared on NBC`s "Today" show, insisting that little Caylee is alive. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I just think it`s another one of their tactics to just delay the disclosure. You know, we had a motion a couple weeks ago to allow us to look at the evidence, and I think it`s just another tactic to slow us down looking at that evidence.
Every bit of evidence could be, you know, brought in a court of law, and also could have some expert witnesses disprove it. So you know, we`ll go to trial, if we have to do that. But I believe we`re going to find Caylee before that.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I describe my daughter -- I can describe her in a lot of different ways, and the best way is to say she`s a great mom. She`s been a great daughter. She always will be a great daughter and a great mom. I mean, I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have never in a quiet moment, the two of you, sat there and go, Is it possible, just possible, that we are in denial here?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely not.
CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely not.
GEORGE ANTHONY: We`re not going to give up to this find this little girl. We`re never going to give up. My granddaughter`s alive. I have every belief and feeling inside. With all the tips we`re still getting -- we even got some tips, you know, just prior to coming up here. I mean, there`s just too many things that up that our granddaughter`s still out there, and we`re going to find her, no matter what.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show, insisting Caylee is alive.
To Dr. Stacy Kaiser in LA. They really believe that. They really believe it, don`t they.
KAISER: I mean, I think they do. But then again, you know, once you give up hope, what do you really have left?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.
There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: There was an overpowering smell on the deck.
C. ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that had been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.
C. ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.
C. ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything. If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the car that are similar to the length and kind of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car, and she is dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.
G. ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my grand daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst, Bill Schaeffer, says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.
BILL SCHAEFFER, EYEWITNESS NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I was interested in learning to make chloroform but I never did, or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting in making it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.
SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, on the "Today" show, just this morning, insisting that little Caylee is alive, and also refuting much of what the media has said.
They insisted that photos of Casey Anthony partying up and down a stripper pole, claimed that they were before little Caylee went missing.
But the photos that have been shown over and over were actually taken on June the 20th. Police believe little Caylee is missing the day after Father`s Day that would have been around the 15th or the 16th.
The other photos that have been shown throughout the media are also after little Caylee went missing. Many of them are.
Speaking of the "Today" show, take a listen to what George and Cindy Anthony had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: You`re kind of prisoners in your own home. Those people, they are very misguided, and it`s very unfortunate that, you know, if they have that energy and they want to, you know -- if they truly believe that Caylee is deceased, then they should put the energy into someone like -- helping similar what Texas Equusearch and actually looking for, you know, on the ground for her.
I point blank asked the sheriff`s department even weeks ago, you know, is it 100 percent? And they said no, there`s no evidence it`s 100 percent. So, I mean, I don`t know any child that doesn`t deserve a chance to be looked for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, that was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show this morning.
Mike, have you ever had to tell a victim`s family your little girl is dead? Have you ever had to do that? Is it better to tell a lie that brings a smile?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: No. No.
GRACE: Or the truth that brings the tear? Would it be so wrong for police to say to them, you know what? Yes, the cadaver dogs hit on the car, yes, we found evidence of decomposition, but we haven`t found a body, so, you know what, maybe she is still alive.
Is it possible they told them that?
BROOKS: I seriously doubt it, Nancy. With the amount of that evidence they have -- the decomposing body, of the hair, of the chloroform and everything else, and now the indictment of Casey Anthony -- there is no way that they`re going to say, oh, we`re holding out hope.
You know, they said early on, they said early on, yes, possibly. But you know, I don`t mean to be flipping, Nancy, but, you know, I held out a little bit of hope for George. You know, but Cindy all along, as I said, about, you know, drinking the Casey Kool-Aid, it sounds like both of them have taken a big gulp of it, Nancy, which is.
GRACE: I don`t know. You know what, Mike.
BROOKS: You know and I know they`re parents.
GRACE: After I had the twins, it would be very difficult for me not to believe something that they would tell me. You know, I would want to believe.
BROOKS: Sure.
GRACE: I would move heaven and earth to make what they said be the truth in my own mind. I understand where the Anthonys are coming from.
BROOKS: Sure.
GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Patricia in Florida. Hi, Patricia.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hi, Nancy, first of all, I wish every child had an advocate like you and (INAUDIBLE) in their corner.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious, they are so adamant thinking that this child -- you know, alive, they had the high hope, but low probability. Should -- is there a possibility that they have evidence that they`re withholding, and if that could be proven that they do, could they be prosecuted?
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, many people have suggested that George and Anthony -- George and Cindy Anthony should also be charged. I disagree.
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I think what might be going on here is that it`s possible that they are telling investigators one thing on an official level, and saying something else on a public level. And I think that`s difficult for people to navigate. I don`t know that anyone thinks it was anything illegal.
GRACE: What about it, Leonard Padilla?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: They`re confused in their own minds as to what they want to believe. Just a week ago, I got a document that says that they just -- Cindy formed a new nonprofit organization to accept funds for the search.
And while we were back there one night, George was telling his friend, the -- that was a cop also up in Warren, Ohio, that he was tired of living the lie. He couldn`t take it anymore. And that was just back in the latter part of August.
So they know the child is dead. They`re just trying to make the best of it and cope with it. And here`s a way to possibly pick up some defense money for their daughter by forming a -- a nonprofit, and taking in funds, because some of the other organizations have been found to be taking funds and misusing them.
And now they`re faced with -- the reality that their daughter has been charged with murder, and what are we going to do? Well, the next best thing is to keep her -- keep hope alive, have people send money in, and the only thing that`s doing is taking it away from Tim Miller, and -- and the real search.
GRACE: You know what, I do not believe -- I do not believe that George and Cindy Anthony would take hard-working people`s money under the guise of searching for Caylee and then just pump it into Casey Anthony`s defense fund.
I just don`t believe that. I believe them. They really have chosen to believe this little girl is alive. Hey, they are not responsible for this child`s disappearance and death, according to police. So they are not being prosecuted.
To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, why have they not visited tot mom Casey Anthony since the murder charges came down?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean, the reason what I would think is because everything that they say to her, whether it be video conference or over the phone, ends up being public.
And then, you know, on this show and throughout the country, dissect every little thing they say, and, you know, a lot of things that have come out through those conversations have painted Casey in a bad light.
So you have to think that maybe the lawyer instructed Casey and the parents.
GRACE: Right.
PETRIMOULX: . to just stop making those calls.
GRACE: Well, this is what they had to say just a few hours ago on that topic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: Casey has asked the focus to be on her daughter, Caylee, and not to be on us going to -- it`s a media frenzy every time we go to the jail, every time, you know -- you know, there is an interview or whatever.
The focus is in the wrong direction. She wants us to focus on her daughter. She desperately wants us to find Caylee. I mean, she`s a grieving mom. And who`s to say, you know, how you react when someone takes someone that you love?
I mean, we`ve been criticized how we`ve acted. There is no handbook on how to act in a circumstance like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s Cindy Anthony on the NBC "Today" show, speaking out about why they have not visited behind bars.
To Shawna in Wisconsin. Hi, Shawna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Great to talk to you.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for all you do. My mom and I watch you every night.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this: why all of the search teams waiting until the 8th of November to restart the.
GRACE: Good question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . restart the search, instead of doing it now?
GRACE: What about it, Tim Miller? Why wait until November 8th?
TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHING FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Well, November 8th is the weekend that we can get everybody together. We`re going to have several thousand people. And, again, the water was high before -- you know, November is turning into fall, vegetation is going to start dying off.
Our resources are going to be far more valuable than they have been. And we know that if Caylee is out there and not alive, she is not going to be anymore dead then than she is now and the chance of finding her would be better.
GRACE: OK. So basically, you are amassing people from all around the country to come search on the 8th.
To Sherry in Mississippi, hi, Sherry. Hi, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, could Caylee have been chloroformed and then drowned, and has the hair sample has been checked -- has the hair sample been checked for chlorine?
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, can hair samples be checked for chlorine?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Absolutely, they can. And you know, these theories about drowning -- this comes from the "Globe," not a very definitive place to study this.
GRACE: Well, and also the fact that cadaver dogs were hitting in the backyard of the Anthony home where there is an above-ground pool. Remember that?
KOBILINSKY: I do. But we really aren`t convinced that decomposition is human origin.
GRACE: Oh, so you don`t trust the dog. You think the dog is in on the conspiracy.
KOBILINSKY: Quite possibly. Dog might have found a friend, some kind of scent that turned it on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst Bill Schaeffer says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform, as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.
SCHAEFFER: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I -- I was interested in learning to make chloroform. But I never did. Or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting by -- in making it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.
SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight. You`re seeing photos that we have confirmed were taken after little Caylee goes missing. That is at Fusion bar, contrary to what Cindy Anthony had to say today on the "Today" show.
I want unleash the lawyers again. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burress.
Have you seen this list from the commissary? High-end items she can choose from, like shrimp cocktail, fresh-catch tuna, chipper snacks, fish steaks? Lingerie? Nacho cheese dip, chocolates, cookies, hot cocoa -- this is like she`s staying at the Hilton, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, yes, well, the Hilton. Doesn`t sound like (INAUDIBLE) County Jail, Nancy. But after all, what is more interesting is the fact that people are putting money into her commissary account.
GRACE: OK. You want to shift gears, that`s fine.
John Burress, do your client set -- or in the pokey usually get to order, nacho, tortilla chips or chicken?
JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have never heard of anything like this so.
GRACE: Well, I haven`t either. What about is, Sue Moss?
BURRESS: . maybe it`s the last supper or something. But not this way. This is quite surprising.
GRACE: Friendship cards? She can get a friendship card?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She -- she can.
GRACE: Anniversary cards? Makeup, skin care products? Ultimate styling gel? Oil, moisturizer, makeup, lingerie, bras? What is this all about?
MOSS: She can buy bras and underwear, at least she`ll be ready for the next hot body contest.
GRACE: You know, I don`t really care that she can order all of this, fine, get after it, I would be mad if you didn`t. But what`s concerning me is, for all we know, her child`s remains, Sue Moss, are out in a swampy area.
And she is basically eating, sleeping, reading, watching a little TV and doing nothing to help cops find little Caylee.
MOSS: That`s absolutely correct. And the evidence is mounting. There is even a new witness who has saw (sic) her. And if this new witness saw her with a shovel, this defense team is in real trouble.
GRACE: To Dawn in Michigan. Hi, Dawn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know why they`re not showing all the evidence if they`re claiming she is dead.
GRACE: What evidence are you referring to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The evidence that they have said they found that she -- the -- that they -- they have been showing off and on on the news and stuff. They said that they found evidence, and I`m just wondering why they`re not showing all of the evidence to prove it.
GRACE: To suggest that -- evidence to suggest that little Caylee is dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: OK. I think the evidence is this, that we know of so far, two cadaver dogs hit on the trunk of mom Casey`s car. Evidence of human decomposition was found by Oak Ridge Laboratories body farm in that car.
The hair of a deceased person that is either an Anthony family member, and they`re deceased, we know it`s not Cindy, George, Lee, or Casey. That only leaves little Caylee.
I think that is the evidence suggesting that she is dead. Plus the fact that she has been missing for such a long time. And, of course, Dawn in Michigan, the police don`t have to reveal to me or you what their evidence is until they go to trial.
Let`s switch gears. I want to help find Kelly Morris. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search continues on for missing Grandville mother Kelly Currin Morris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family needs closure. Everybody needs a little closure on this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire the same day she disappeared. Her husband, Scott Williams Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive.
Sources tell "Eyewitness News," Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money. Currin spoke to Morris by phone shortly after Kelly disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t see -- if he any particular place we thought we need to be looking and he said he didn`t.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Out to Gurnal Scott joining us from Raleigh, North Carolina with WPTF.
Gurnal, very unusual circumstances that arson is involved.
GURNAL SCOTT, ANCHOR/REPORTER, WPTF RADIO, COVERING STORY: Yes. Arson is involved with the home of -- the home was found burned after Kelly Morris was discovered missing, and she is still missing a month and a half after that fire occurred.
And they`ve got professional search teams out of Texas coming in to -- to look and canvass the area around Grandville County and town of Stem where the home was, and see if they can find any sign of her as to where she went and what happened to her.
GRACE: We`re showing you a map right now. There is Gurnal Scott speaking with us from WPTF.
Right now, joining us, Kelly`s father, Pat Currin.
Sir, thank you for being with us. When was the last time you saw your daughter?
PAT CURRIN, KELLY MORRIS` FATHER: My wife was at the house on the 3rd about 8:00 that night.
GRACE: And was she in good spirits?
CURRIN: Best I know, yes, ma`am.
GRACE: And, sir, she has two young children, correct?
CURRIN: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Have you ever known her to leave them?
CURRIN: No, ma`am.
GRACE: I mean it kills me when I have to leaf the twins just to come to work. What do you want searchers to do? Do you believe that she`s still alive?
CURRIN: We`re hoping for the very best.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
CURRIN: And we are preparing for the worst, obviously, you know, it`s been such a long time. It will be seven weeks tomorrow. So we are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time.
GRACE: Is there a reward being offered by the family? How much?
CURRIN: We have offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and CrimeStoppers has offered $5,000.
GRACE: That is a substantial amount of reward.
Everyone, the tip line is 919-963-3213. With us tonight, Kelly Morris`s father.
Look at this young beauty, missing for weeks now. Please help us find Kelly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff`s office remains tight lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson, investigators are calling Kelly`s husband Scott Morris a person of interest but won`t release any further details.
Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Straight back out to Pat Currin, this is Kelly Morris`s father joining us tonight.
Mr. Currin, again, thank you for being with us, I know this is a trying time for you and your wife and your entire family. What were the circumstances of her disappearance?
CURRIN: We -- my wife had gone to -- one of the children had stuck something in their foot and they had gone to their house on the 3rd and my daughter is working a part-time job and had started a new job about 10 days prior to that.
And she had gone -- she works for a group of older people, a place for the older people to live and she was over there helping out with them, collecting money for them, whatever that was for.
But anyway, so she came in while my wife was there and as far as we know everything was OK and obviously none of our family has talked to her since.
GRACE: What are the ages of her children?
CURRIN: 5 and 8.
GRACE: And where they tonight?
CURRIN: The 8-year-old child is with her daddy, which was from a previous.
GRACE: Right.
CURRIN: And the 5-year-old is with Scott.
GRACE: Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us.
Everyone, we`ll be back on the story tomorrow night. Leaving behind two little children, where is Kelly? ` I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Shaun Whitehead, 24, Commerce, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Dedicated to country and his fellow soldiers, dreamed of a military career.
Loved time with family, playing with his children. Leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca, widow Brenda, son Gabriel, daughter, Jana.
Shaun Whitehead. American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
