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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Defense Seeks to Bar Evidence
Aired October 23, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The investigation reveals mom Casey ignores deadly chloroform warnings, warnings that were right in front of her eyes, before allegedly cooking up the highly toxic chemical solution. As the state`s theories on little Caylee`s death emerge, the defense strategy is revealed, as well, the tot mom`s defense now seeking to have all evidence connected to mom Casey`s car, including DNA from hair plus evidence of human decomposition, thrown out of court. The defense begins questioning state`s witnesses, all focusing on the car, as critical FBI lab results to be delivered tomorrow morning, including that chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.
Police reveal suspicious computer searches on mom Casey`s computer were actually do-it-yourself chloroform recipes. That`s right, the tot mom, Casey, reads up on how to cook up chloroform all at the time little Caylee goes missing, this as grandparents George and Cindy insist when mom Casey was caught on camera partying, it was before Caylee vanished. But the actual photographer confirms mom Casey out celebrating even at a "hot body" contest after Caylee`s gone.
Nearly 1,000 tips pour in. The Anthonys` private investigator is zeroing in on what they say are two new leads, one outside the state of Florida. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy, this as complete strangers who say they feel sorry for the tot mom put money in her jail account. But tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony killed with chloroform? Well, according to affiliate WFTV, investigators say someone was researching how to make the potent chemical on her mother`s computer around the same time the little girl vanished. Investigators found high levels of chloroform and evidence of a decomposing body in the trunk of her mother`s car.
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CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The forensic evidence in Casey Anthony`s car trunk, Caylee`s hairs, which investigators say came from her dead body, and air tests showing signs of human decomposition is the strongest evidence so far. And the specifics will go public very soon. It appears the defense team plans to attack that evidence, possibly trying to show that it could have been compromised at some time between when it was parked at the Amscot and when it was parked here at the sheriff`s evidence garage. Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s (ph) Wrecker Service in east Orlando.
CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search continues on for missing Granholm (ph) mother Kelly Currin (ph) Morris. Pat Currin has commanded volunteers, canvassed miles of farmland, even in the air to find his missing daughter, Kelly Currin Morris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We surely would have thought we`d have found something by now, but we just haven`t. And the leads seem to be getting less and less.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Currin is offering a substantial reward after rumors that his body daughter`s body was discovered but the information was being withheld because there was no money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping $30,000 will make somebody come forward. It`s like I said, it could be anonymous, I can be through a third person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Currin is looking for any new leads. So far, there have been a few since his daughter went missing the same day investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire. Her husband, William Scott Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive. Sources tell Eyewitness News Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family fears the worst. Currin says Morris loved her two daughters more than anything and there`s no way she would leave her family and not say good-bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that Casey Anthony`s defense team may be trying to get evidence found in the tot mom`s car thrown out. The station reports that the defense will claim that the evidence could have been compromised between the time it was abandoned and when it was brought to the Orange County sheriff`s office.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: I sat down with her, and when I referenced the car smell, she said, Well, it actually started around Mom`s birthday when -- which is, again, June 5. She said it started around that time when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.
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ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call to come pick her up. She said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot.
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GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Someone else could have been driving my daughter`s car when it was towed from this one location on the 30th.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, the state attorney`s office announced that they will be releasing FBI lab documents at any moment. At least 30 pages are expected to be released.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us tonight. Kathi Belich, it`s my understanding that when you look up these do-it- yourself chloroform recipes, they all have huge warnings across the top claiming, Do not expose this to children.
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They have warnings about exposing it to children. They have warnings about how dangerous and unpredictable it is, that you should be careful in handling it, it shouldn`t be inhaled. There are warnings all over the place about that.
GRACE: We are showing you some on-line warnings. If anyone looks it up -- and we know now that on the tot mom`s computer, there were various searches for how to do-it-yourself recipes on chloroform, all of these warnings, skull and bones, warning people away from the use and the creation of chloroform.
I want to go to Dr. Tristan Lambert, professor of chemistry at Columbia University. Dr. Lambert, thank you for being with us. I know you need acetone. I know you need bleach. Both simple to get. But how do you go about creating chloroform?
TRISTAN LAMBERT, PH.D., PROFESSOR OF CHEMISTRY, COLUMBIA UNIV.: Well, Nancy, it`s actually quite simple. Just as the recipes on the Internet say, it`s literally as simple as pouring one liquid into another. So what you would do is get your bleach, cool it down with some ice, and then just pour the acetone. Or it could be a number of compounds, isopropyl alcohol, which is rubbing alcohol, or ethanol. You pour that into the solution of bleach very slowly, and that creates the chloroform.
GRACE: That`s all you need to do? Why do you have to put it on ice?
LAMBERT: The ice is there to actually cool down the mixture. So when you actually generate the chloroform, that chemical reaction is what`s called exothermic, so it generates quite a good deal of heat, and that heat can get out of hand. If you didn`t cool the mixture, it would actually begin to boil, and that`s going to be bad for a number of reasons, one of which is it`s going to cause the chloroform to boil, and then you`re going to inhale that. It`s actually -- it would be quite dangerous to not cool it down.
GRACE: And so acetone is actually quite common. It`s very simply used as a drying thinner, correct?
LAMBERT: Among other things. It`s also used to clean metal parts and things of that sort. But yes, it`s very common.
GRACE: So that`s very, very common. Acetone, bleach and what else would I need to create chloroform?
LAMBERT: Just a way to cool the mixture.
GRACE: And you can do that over ice?
LAMBERT: You can do it over ice. Yes. Sure.
GRACE: So the acetone that we bought was 3 bucks. The Chlorox was 2 bucks. That`s a pretty cheap mixture for such a deadly solution. Is it correct, Dr. Lambert, that back in the `70s, chloroform was taken off the market for consumer use?
LAMBERT: Well, I don`t know of those details, but I do know that it`s no longer used for any type of medicinal purpose. It used to be used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century, but it`s, in fact, very dangerous. It`s also carcinogenic. So it`s not used for any human purpose anymore.
GRACE: Dr. Lambert, is there any innocent reason that someone would be cooking up chloroform in their home?
LAMBERT: To my knowledge, there`s very few. Chloroform can be used to sort of weld certain plastic parts together. And as far as I know, there`s not many more uses. It would be a very rare thing for a layperson to actually need chloroform.
GRACE: And one last question for right now. Dr. Tristan Lambert joining us from Columbia University. How does chloroform work as a, quote, "knockout agent"?
LAMBERT: Well, not speaking as a medical doctor, essentially, what happens is you inhale the chloroform, and it acts as a central nervous system depressant. And you know, so with small amounts of chloroform inhaled, what`s going to happen is you`re going to begin to feel dizzy, maybe fatigued, headache. If you inhale more, it`s actually going to cause you to pass out. And that`s why it was used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century. But unfortunately, there`s a very thin window between you passing out, and in fact, you dying, which is most likely due to heart failure.
GRACE: Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us from WDBO. The investigation is revealing that the tot mom went to various chloroform Web sites on how to cook it up yourself, allegedly. All of these Web sites -- most of them, anyway -- have dire warnings that she would have had to have ignored if she cooked it up. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What is the theory, that she used chloroform to knock out little Caylee and actually put her in the car trunk while she partied?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, well, the theory was that she got in a fight with her mom on June 15, that is, and she called Tony Lazzaro, her boyfriend, and she was wanting to go over there. He said, You can come over, but only if you don`t bring little Caylee. And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in a trunk with a rag of chloroform and she basically succumbed and died overnight.
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CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor. I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony (INAUDIBLE) looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) moms will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause it to lose consciousness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bond (ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain, and then the heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We now learn that the tot mom, of course, had apparently gone on line, looking up how to make your own chloroform at home. Now we know those Web sites that were visited have dire warnings that were right in front of her eyes to keep chloroform away from children, this as the Anthonys claim photos that have been released of the tot mom partying and dancing, even on a stripper pole, were before little Caylee went missing. The photographer now confirms, No, these were after the little girl vanished. Take a listen.
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GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason, even though some stuff may have came out showing her maybe in -- out having a good time with friends...
CINDY ANTHONY: Those pictures were prior to...
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) between the age of 18 and 21. I mean, this happened way before all these things.
CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures...
GEORGE ANTHONY: This is very disturbing to us.
CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures are shown have happened before June the 16th, and that`s the problem with this whole case. There`s been so many, you know, people out there that are putting things together that, you know, if you follow the timeline, it doesn`t add up.
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GRACE: That`s George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show defending the tot mom`s partying after Caylee goes missing. These shots are of her partying at club Fusian, including the night of a "hot body" contest, after she says the little girl goes missing.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, veteran defense attorney Peter Odom also out of Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining us out of New York.
Eleanor Dixon, you`d have to be blind to ignore those warnings on the chloroform Web site, Do not expose to children.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, you`re right, Nancy. And certainly, it goes to her state of mind and maybe her motive in wanting to deep little Caylee quiet at some point.
GRACE: To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, even if the theory emerges that she would chloroform little Caylee to keep her quiet and in the trunk so she could party at night and spend the night at her boyfriend`s, that would be an aggravated assault. And a death occurred. That would be a felony murder.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s no question about it, but the problem is, Why do we know about that? I mean, doesn`t this police department do anything confidentially? I mean, I`m not lauding her for...
GRACE: Well, why are you attacking them? That`s not even remotely close to what I asked you.
SHERMAN: Well, the problem is that even the asking of the questions and the fact that we know about this and that it`s been disseminated...
GRACE: That`s not the problem! The problem is the little girl is likely dead. That`s the problem, all right?
SHERMAN: Yes, but does this move us closer to finding that out?
GRACE: OK. Let me try with Peter Odom. What about it, Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there are very few innocent explanations for why someone would be trying to make chloroform. The problem for the defense here is not just that chloroform is connected with Casey, but the chloroform is connected with that trunk where a decomposing body was found. That`s a circumstance that`s going to be hard for the defense to explain, frankly.
GRACE: Mickey, do you think that part of their defense strategy is going to try to pin it on someone else that used the computer?
SHERMAN: If they can find anybody to pin it on, or at least to point a finger at, and have some basis for it -- as you know, most judges won`t let third-party culpability evidence in unless there`s some decent showing that that`s a possibility. But if they can find that -- I think that`s why they want the items suppressed because the contamination in the vehicle may be responsible.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, being in Florida here, I watched the Anthonys try to collect money for searches for Caylee, but I don`t see any searches going on. I`m wondering what`s going on with all that money.
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. What about it?
BELICH: I`m sorry. She`s asking the about the money in the jail account?
GRACE: No. She`s asking about the money that the Anthonys allegedly collect to perform searches.
BELICH: Well, we have not been able to find out a lot about that. They started a new foundation. We`ve asked questions about that. We`ve gotten no answers. We don`t know if any money was donated. A previous fund -- there was less than $2,500 in that fund. So we haven`t been able to find a whole lot out about that.
GRACE: You know, Kathi Belich with WFTV, you just brought up the Casey Anthony jail money. Apparently, people are feeling sorry for her and donating money to her jail account, as opposed to the Find Casey account or Equusearch?
BELICH: That`s right. Apparently, there was a local woman who donate money to her here in central Florida. Also, a woman from California, who says she knows something about the jail experience, who donated money to her, as well, as well as her father donating money.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Why would people, anonymous people, people -- other people that have never met the tot mom, put money in her jail account so she can buy lingerie, high-end luxury items, shrimp cocktail, you name it, a huge commissary menu?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Nancy, these people feel sorry for her. They do not want to believe that a mother could do such a heinous thing. And I have to believe they`re identified with her in some way. Either they`ve been abused by a mother, they`ve abused their own children, maybe they`re drug addicts and neglected their own children, they know what it`s like to be put in jail.
But Nancy, I want to throw something else in. I do not believe that Casey Anthony used chloroform to subdue her child so that she could go out on a date. It doesn`t make sense. When you go on those Web sites, it says it irritates the eyes, it irritates the face. So did she Google how to make chloroform or -- and I`m going to be interested to know this -- did she Google child and harm, child, harm, poison, death? How did those Google searches begin because it just -- I can`t believe it just began with looking for chloroform, and I think the origin of the search is going to be really important.
GRACE: Then what do you believe they`ll find?
MARSHALL: I think -- I just had a producer here at CNN look up chloroform before going on the show, and she looked up chloroform and harm. She looked up poison and death. I mean, she got it really quickly. But we did not start with how to make chloroform. And when you saw the side effects, to thank she put a rag, potentially, if the allegations are true, on her child`s face, her child`s eyes, her child`s skin, knowing what that does to a toddler -- it`s a heinous, malicious, hateful act.
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GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your -- get your facts straight!
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CINDY ANTHONY: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony feels her granddaughter, Caylee, is alive, even with test results indicating there was a dead body in the back of mother Casey Anthony`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?
CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now, I think she`s somewhere in Texas or even Puerto Rico.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an overpowering smell out in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first glance, she thought this may be the smell a body or decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Patty California. Hi, Patty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question to you, since you`re an attorney and I know you have attorneys on your show -- my question is, with everything that she`s done in the public`s eye since this all started and the e-mails and the psychiatrist reports, do you think that her attorneys will try to claim some kind of insanity defense against her?
GRACE: Well, right now, we know that they are checking the chain of custody, everything to do with the car because the car has the most damning evidence. But what about it, Eleanor Dixon? Do you believe there`s any chance of an insanity defense?
DIXON: Well, of course, the defense attorneys are going to try that. You know, how often do we see that, Nancy? It happens all the time. But you`ve got to look at all the pieces of evidence which point to her guilt and her state of mind.
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CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Absolutely, she knows who has her. I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home.
She`s leading to a place but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee. My daughter has some mistruths out there or half truths, but she`s not a murderer.
There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.
C. ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our house. There`s no evidence that Casey had ever done any harm to her child.
She lived with me for three years, I`ve never seen anything.
She is not dead.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s aged 3, is alive. I`m going to find her. I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us.
I would do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: The FBI lab results expected tomorrow morning. This is the defense gears up to begin cross examining state`s witnesses within the next week.
We are taking your calls live. Out to -- let me see, Nina in Michigan. Hi, Nina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, we love your show. My husband`s an attorney and we never miss you.
GRACE: Nina, thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the psychologist had said that a sociopath always with a bit of truth into their lives and Casey always seems to say that Caylee is close to home.
Is it possible that they buried Caylee under that cement patio near her playhouse that she loves so much and maybe in some sick way they used the chloroform as some sort of an embalming thing?
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, that cement had been poured fairly recently, but I`m sure the police have checked that out.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Believe me, Orange County Sheriff`s Office in this investigation has crossed the Ts and dotted the Is.
The body is not there even though she went home and that`s why they got the hits on the 18th. She went home, but the body is by the airport where the pings show that she spent 18 minutes on the 27th, trying to figure out what to do.
There`s no doubt in anybody`s mind and that`s where the search is going to be concentrated to.
GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. Ron, do you believe that it`s significant that allegedly Casey Anthony made her own chloroform as opposed to purchasing it?
Online -- I guess, if she had purchased it online, though, what would she have used, her mom`s credit card?
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, that`s it. If she purchased it online she would have left a trail. Obviously, this shows some type of premeditation. To what -- what she actually was premeditating we don`t know. We only suppose at this point.
But by trying to mix her own it shows that she was not trying to leave a trail.
GRACE: And to Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of L.A., do you believe she was trying to circumvent leaving a trail or some other reasoning for her do-it-yourself chloroform recipe?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is hard to say. You know she`s so cunning and manipulative, but this is a girl who never wanted to spend her own money. Remember she went shopping at Target after taking the checks. She stole gas from her own parents.
Did she just want to take stuff from her parent`s kitchen to get the chloroform so she didn`t want have to spend her own money? I`ve heard she`s not even spending on commissary items in jail. She just doesn`t want to spend her own money even when she has it to spend.
GRACE: Back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, he`s a famed -- famed forensic scientist with John J. College of Criminal Justice.
Dr. Kobilinsky, you are trying to tell me earlier about how chloroform can accidentally be made?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes. Absolutely. Just as Dr. Lambert explained. It is very easy to make it. But Nancy.
GRACE: No, no.
KOBILINSKY: Let me tell you something.
GRACE: He said it`s very easy. He didn`t mention anything about making it accidentally.
KOBILINSKY: Well, it can be made..
GRACE: As a matter of fact, you should pour it over ice to create it, that doesn`t sound like you`re doing it accidentally.
KOBILINSKY: Nancy, it can be made accidentally. But let me tell you something else. This is not forensic science 101. This is forensic science 201. Animal decomposition can result in hundreds of compounds, one of which is chloroform.
Chloroform can also be converted to carbon tetrachloride. Both of these substances can be found as a result of decomposition.
GRACE: Kobe, there was not a dead animal in the car up, under the car, on the hood of the car, in the trunk of the car. I see where you`re headed. That gives me insight into where the defense is headed.
They`re going to use her story that she or her father had run over an animal and it had created the horrible stench, but the reality is -- and I`ll go back to Ron Shindel on this -- cadaver dogs do not hit on animal remains, Ron, and I trained there myself at the Oakridge Laboratories in Tennessee.
There is a unit called the Body Farm there. They have evidence of human decomposition in the trunk, not animal decomposition, but human decomposition. It`s impossible for cadaver dog to hit on animal remains.
SHINDEL: Dogs are trained to hit on human remain, not animal remains. That`s the exact fact and that`s their job, that`s what they`re supposed to do.
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sherry in Nevada. Oh, excuse me, Cheryl in Nevada. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. The gentleman that saw somebody looking like Casey Anthony with a bag and a shovel?
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they ever say what type of a bag that was because wouldn`t she have had to do something with the bag?
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what can you tell us about the detail that -- that`s one of three people that sighted her in that area?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, that man says that he actually saw her coming out of the woods. He also said that he actually saw somebody else out there, a male acting like he was fishing to kind of distract the public for anyone that may pass by from knowing what was actually going on.
But, you know, it hasn`t been a story that`s been confirmed but it is one of three sightings or possible sightings of Casey, you know, maybe dumping the body.
GRACE: What type of bag? Do we know?
PETRIMOULX: I`m not sure if that`s been reported yet. I don`t know.
GRACE: Kathi Belich with WFTV, do we know any more details about the bag?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I do not know any more details about the bag. I believe that the shovel was in the bag as it was being carried in the trunk of the car, of the woman`s car was already open as she was running out of the woods.
So it appeared she was in a hurry and expecting to get out of there quickly with the impression.
GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.
You know, to Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, the insanity defense is something that Patty in California called in about.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: The search for chloroform, the disposal of the body all of that shows premeditation. How does premeditation or clear intent fit with an insanity claim?
ODOM: Well, it`s really hard to say at this point, but as the evidence mounts showing that Casey has guilty knowledge, as evidence mounts that there was a dead body in the trunk, that there was chloroform in there, the defense is going have to come up with some explanation consistent with the evidence.
That`s why, as I`ve said from the onset, this case is likely to end up with an insanity defense.
GRACE: Mickey?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I don`t agree. No jury these days buys insanity defenses even when they`re valid. I mean don`t forget Andrea Yates had to go through two trials before she was found insane.
Jeffrey Dahmer was found sane. People forget about that. We don`t like insanity defenses in this country. It just doesn`t fly and when you especially have a victim as non-worthy as this young girl -- why is she a non-worthy, (INAUDIBLE) it was such an unnecessary death and such a cruel death no matter who did it, no jury is going to buy it, Nancy.
GRACE: Eleanor?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I`m glad to hear Mickey say that, I`d like him on my jury if I put every piece of evidence, which points to Casey`s guilt. The odor of chloroform, the cadaver dog hitting, the DNA, come on, she`s guilty.
GRACE: But insanity. I don`t see it, Bethany, there`s just too much intent. The ability to form, intent to do a crime, Bethany Marshall.
MARSHALL: Chloroform search, but she lied extensively to investigators over the course of many hours. That clearly shows she knew right from wrong. And remember, insanity is a legal concept, not a mental health concept.
From a mental health perspective you can be mentally ill like Andrea Yates and still know right from wrong.
GRACE: We are expecting the FBI lab results tomorrow morning. We`re standing by for that.
To Pam in Canada, hi Pam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your questions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s legal bills must be astronomical and I`m just wondering who`s paying for those.
GRACE: Good question. To Kathi Belich from WFTV. Has Baez taken this pro bono?
BELICH: No, he says he`s being paid. He will not say who is paying him and the best we can do is they`ve apparently -- ABC did confirm that it paid some licensing fees for some photos. Other than that, we have no idea where the money is coming from.
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G. ANTHONY: I believe in my heart everything. We`re still getting tips and things like that that my grand daughter is still alive. She is alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my grand daughter is still out there.
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(NEWSBREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. The next day, that house was burned. Morris` car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris.
The sheriff`s office remains tight-lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson. Investigators are calling Kelly`s husband, Scott Morris, a person of office interest, but won`t release any further details.
Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re committed and we`re not going to give up until we find Kelly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Where is 28-year-old Kelly Morris.
Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. Rory, take it from the beginning. What happened?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, good evening. Back on September 3rd it seems that Kelly Morris just disappeared. One day she was there, the next gone.
The family had assumed or some friends had assumed she had gone off to work but only later did they find that her car was parked a block away and her home was actually on fire.
That`s when police and firefighters were first -- learned of this woman`s disappearance. They go to the house. She is not there and that`s when the search begins.
Since then her husband Scott has been labeled as a prime suspect. He has not been contributing to the search and he is the man police are looking at very closely. They want to know where he was the night before she disappeared.
GRACE: And Rory, where does he say he was?
O`NEILL: He says he went to bed early. How the two have had been an estranged relationship, sleeping in separate bedrooms so he says he went to bed but he actually -- cell phone records indicate he was up late talking to his father and actually had his father come over and baby sit the kids, and he did leave the house for about an hour.
GRACE: You know, I want to go out to our lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.
You know, Mickey, in arson cases that I have prosecuted I recall distinctly people will -- perpetrators will take their car and move it, move it away from the structure, away from the building. That`s a dead giveaway of arson.
SHERMAN: Yes, and you know, don`t forget. When people plan these things they don`t plan them well. We`re not talking about criminal geniuses here. So it`s those little things.
And I -- I`m bothered by the fact that the guy is not searching for her. That`s weird. That`s just very strange.
GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. When was the last time she was seen?
O`NEILL: She was last seen at the home the night before. That is the only time -- that`s the last time the husband reports seeing her is before he went to bed and she said that -- he said that she had left to go out and look for a missing family dog, but it turns out the dogs were actually in their crates according to the kids the next day.
But the interesting thing is once firefighters got to the scene of the house and saw the house ablaze, the dogs were free and roaming around the backyard of that household.
GRACE: So typically, to Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector, if you are burning down the home, you`re burning down evidence. Evidence of what?
SHINDEL: Evidence of the crime you`ve committed. And in this case we have a missing person so the crime that could have been committed there could have been a homicide.
GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.
Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us. What are police telling you?
PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: That we obviously -- you know they`ve told us that the house is ruled arson which you`ve already mentioned.
We know that, you know, we saw Kelly that night -- or we -- yes, we actually saw her the night before at 8 o`clock and I actually went to where Scott worked the next morning about 9:30 and he was there and everything seemed to be fine at that time and then about 12:20, that -- after lunch, one of the guys that he worked for called me and said that the - he said I`m not sure, but the right address is, I believe, Kelly`s house is on fire.
So at that time I tried to make a call to Kelly to at least let her know that the house was on fire and, you know, of course, I didn`t get her to answer the phone so I called Scott and he -- I asked him, I said, what was going on, and he said the house is on fire, so I`ll be down in a few minutes.
So I was in the next small town so I drove over as quick as I could get there.
GRACE: It`s interesting to me, Mr. Currin, about the house being set ablaze. Do you know where the fire started, what room?
CURRIN: You know, just from what the fire chief and everybody was telling me that the fire started in the back of the house.
GRACE: The back -- what room would that have been?
CURRIN: Well, they had a screened-in back porch in the back, I believe it started there from the fire chief said. It appeared to have started on the back porch.
GRACE: Do they being an accelerant was used like gasoline?
CURRIN: They`ve not told me what they thought was used. They just ruled it as arson is all they know.
GRACE: And -- so all they know is it`s arson. They don`t know how it was set.
CURRIN: If they do, they`ve not told me.
GRACE: Mr. Currin, have you learned anything about whether items were taken out of the home before it was set on fire?
CURRIN: I do not know.
GRACE: Did the husband have any items there?
CURRIN: Sure. I mean, you know, both of them were still living there. They had a rolled -- had a four-wheeler and lawn mower and stuff in the garage. They had -- you know, the firefighters have tried to save as much of their personal items as they could.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Gina in Pennsylvania. Hi, Gina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we know about this guy? This husband? Does he have any type of a criminal past? A violent history? Did they have a volatile relationship? What do we know about him other than he`s a person of interest?
GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, what do we know?
O`NEILL: State Bureau of Investigation did conduct its probe and they did find he did have a history of having a temper such as punching holes in the wall. One time he actually threw a computer out of the window so neighbors and friends into say Scott did have a bit of a temper.
GRACE: Is that true, Mr. Currin?
CURRIN: Yes, ma`am. Kelly had said that -- you know I had asked her when she said they were having problems and she had actually came to live in our house in June for about three weeks, and -- you know, said he had a bad temper.
But I asked her did he have -- you know, put his hands on her, she said he had not.
GRACE: What about the episode of throwing a computer out of the window? What was that about?
CURRIN: I don`t - I don`t know about that.
GRACE: Don`t know about that.
CURRIN: No, ma`am.
GRACE: Has she every been gone for a period of days without being in touch with you guys?
CURRIN: No, ma`am. Never.
GRACE: And how are her children?
CURRIN: Excuse me?
GRACE: How are her children tonight?
CURRIN: Well, the older child is, obviously, with her dad and the younger child is still with Scott.
GRACE: Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?
CURRIN: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.
GRACE: Everyone, the tip line, 919-963-3213. There is a $36,000 reward. Take a look at Kelly Morris, 28, Stem, North Carolina.
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CURRIN: We are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time. We`ve offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and the CrimeStoppers has offered $1,000.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They`ve named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance.
Newly released search warrants indicate investigators are looking at Scott and Kelly Morris` bank records. The warrants also showed the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the wall and once threw a computer out the window.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Everybody, earlier on the show, one of the reporters said ABC paid for right to Anthony family photos. I want to clarify. It was NBC that paid for those rights.
Very quickly, back to this story, Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, is it true police have asked for bank records of the Morris?
O`NEILL: That was part of the -- part of the warrant that they had received.
GRACE: OK.
O`NEILL: . was to get information with those bank warrants as well as searching his vehicle.
GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon, what significance the bank records?
DIXON: It`s very significant because you could see where the husband`s interests lie, what he spends his money on and those can give you some very important clues.
GRACE: To Mary in Illinois, hi, Mary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, about the cadaver dogs how they can tell the difference between human flesh and.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . and OK. Can a cadaver dog go in and tell the difference between regular ashes and human ashes, and is that why that guy set the house on fire to maybe explain away his wife`s disappearance?
GRACE: OK. A cadaver dog can hit on human remains. To my knowledge, cadaver dogs have not been brought into the home. There are no remains found in the home that we know of.
Everyone, let`s stop for a moment and remember Army Private First Class William Dix, 32, Carver City, California, set for a second tour, also served Korea in the Marines. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Overseas Service Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal.
Remembered for a sense of humor and devotion. Leaves behind parents, Barbara and William, sister Stephanie, brother Christopher.
William Dix, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially for you for being with us. And a very happy birthday to veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Finally 21.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.
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