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Nancy Grace
Forensic Evidence Released in Missing Florida Toddler Case
Aired October 24, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 18 long weeks now.
Just hours ago, FBI lab results released, and it is a bombshell, the evidence confirming the scent of death, human decomposition, and extremely high levels of chloroform in mom Casey Anthony`s car trunk, the stunning results debunking a possible defense strategy to blame that stench and decomposition on a dead animal or a rotten pizza, the FBI even going as far as putting that rotten pizza theory to the test.
Plus, forensic experts confirm the decomposition in Casey`s car trunk is from a human and not an animal, this on the heels of reports the defense is set to demand all evidence connected to that car be thrown out of court. As the search for the little 3-year-old intensifies tonight, the big question, of course, where is Caylee?
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CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I found my daughter`s car today.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state attorney`s office has made public over 30 pages of FBI lab documents showing tests done on tot mom Casey Anthony`s car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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CINDY ANTHONY: And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says one of the hairs found in Casey`s car trunk shows signs of decomposition at the root, which indicates death, and says it`s consistent with hairs found on Caylee`s hairbrush.
CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the FBI says it found, quote, "an unusually large concentration" of chloroform, far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition, in the carpet sample from Casey`s trunk, where investigators found a mysterious stain.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Maybe my daughter ran over something.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lab says not only was there no pizza found in the trunk of the car, but they conducted their own decomposing pizza test in their lab, which showed no maggots on the pizza after testing.
GEORGE ANTHONY: There was an overpowering smell.
CINDY ANTHONY: That smell was terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And in other breaking news tonight, in the last hours, Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother found dead at a Chicago home. Police on high alert for the shooter, and a 7-year-old boy in extreme danger tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news tonight. A shocking discovery in Chicago, where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was a female found in the living room floor with a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in the bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old Julian King (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that knows the whereabouts of the 7-year- old -- his name is Julian King. He`s 7 years old, male, African-American.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King missing with a man considered armed and dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, as the FBI releases lab results in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI lab documents have been officially released showing evidence of decomposition in both the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car and the root of a hair found in the vehicle.
CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled (ph) rotten whatever it was. Something decomposing in there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in the trunk with a rag of chloroform, and she basically succumbed and died overnight.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: The trunk was open, the windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell. Whatever it was, it was very potent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Results from air sample tests say there also appeared to be an unusually high concentration of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s Pontiac Sunfire.
CINDY ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything.
You guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin.
Caylee is not dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s close to home.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many developments. Let`s go straight out to news director Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Jane, here are the articles right here. This is the report that was released today by the FBI dealing with the Casey Anthony case. FBI tests have concluded that human decomposition and traces of chloroform found in the back of Casey Anthony`s Sunbird (SIC), and that`s part of the report.
Now, the DNA tests concluded that the hair sample found in the back of the car could not be confirmed whether it`s Casey`s or Caylee`s. And they even took a sample from the hairbrush that Caylee used. But one of the things they did say, Jane, is that there was that -- the hair samples showed some decomposition of that hair strand at the bottom, as they call it, the dark band or the death band.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I`m looking at this report. It`s 35 pages, as you mentioned. It`s very detailed. It`s the kind of thing that us laypeople are going to have a hard time analyzing. But we`ve got forensic experts here tonight.
Let`s take a look at some of the conclusions of Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. He`s going to analyze this in a second, but -- he read the whole thing. Here`s what he concluded. One, decomposition occurred in the trunk of the car. Two, that decomposition is human. Three, the decomposition lasted about 2.6 days. Four, the decomposing tissue included one human hair. Five, the human hair belongs to either Casey or Caylee Anthony, based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. And six, Casey Anthony is not decomposed. In other words, Casey is alive.
So Doctor, does this show that Caylee is, in fact, dead?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes. This is evidence that one of the hairs on Caylee`s -- well, either Caylee or Casey`s -- head is decomposed. And as we know, Casey is not decomposed. That leaves Caylee with a decomposed hair in the trunk of the car.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So now -- this has been stated often, but why can`t they get to the point where they can figure out exactly whose hair this is? This was a mitochondrial DNA test, but apparently, there are nuclear tests. There are more detailed tests that can be done on here. Is the fact that we didn`t get the root of this hair what`s standing between really identifying whether it`s Caylee or Casey`s once and for all?
ARNALL: Right. We each have both mitochondrial DNA in part of our cell and nuclear DNA in another part. What they were able to find is mitochondrial DNA. However, the other evidence -- that is, the evidence of decomposition -- suggests that whoever that hair belongs to, either Caylee or Casey, was decomposed. And as we know, Mom, Casey, is not decomposed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically, for our viewers, what you`re saying is that this hair shows signs of decomposition, which means a dead person. In other words, the person to whom this hair belongs is dead, right?
ARNALL: Right. This hair belongs to a person who`s dead and decomposed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. And therefore, it can only belong to one of two people, based on the DNA testing. That is either Caylee or Casey. And since Casey is clearly alive, even though she`s sitting in jail tonight, then wherefore, it has to belong to Caylee, wherefore, she is dead.
Let`s bring in Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. He is a forensic scientist and he is also a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby (ph), did you reach the same conclusion? And again, you`re working for the defense at this point. But did you reach the same conclusion that this says, basically, she`s dead, the child is dead?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Jane, let me address the issue that Dr. Arnall just raised. He was very clear that it`s either Casey or Caylee`s hair. That is supposed to be based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. What Dr. Arnall is not telling you is that mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual. But not only is it not unique because all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, but also non- relatives -- there are certain non-related individuals that share the same mitochondrial DNA. So this is speculation. This is not scientific fact.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you`re saying that somebody accidentally dropped a piece of hair in the trunk, and they just happened to have the same exact DNA as Caylee and Casey, but it`s not Cindy because she`s alive, so it couldn`t be her hair, but it`s somebody else who then somehow ended up dead or was dead?
KOBILINSKY: Jane, Jane, I`m not saying anything of that sort. And as you know, I cannot comment on the specifics of a case that I`m working on. But I will say that the conclusion that this hair is either Caylee or Casey is simply not scientific. It`s a speculation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Dr. Arnall, you know, shoot back.
ARNALL: I agree with -- I agree with precisely what he said. And the defense will be confronted with the problem that someone who is dead and decomposed has mitochondrial DNA consistent with either Casey or Caylee. So you`ll develop a list of people in the neighborhood who could have been in the trunk and who are currently missing and decomposed to whom this hair might belong.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s my point. That`s my point, Koby, is that, statistically, the probability of it being anybody else but Caylee is minute to the point of being ridiculous.
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, "statistically" is exactly the right word because we deal with statistics. We do not have a unique profile. The statistics may be more common than you would think. And the relevant population may not be in the block. It may be in the county or the state.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, this reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial, when they started doing all the crazy DNA analysis that got to the point where nobody could understand what they were talking about. And basically, you know, it was sort of, like, in confusion, there is victory for the defense.
Do you think that that`s what they`re going to do? And let me bring in the lawyers for that -- Joe Episcopo, defense attorney, and Penny Douglas Furr. Do you think that`s what`s going to happen, Joe? In other words, they`re going to use the statistical possibility that it could possibly be somebody else within the concept of the universe, and they`re going to -- they`ll argue that therefore, you can`t prove that Caylee is dead?
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes. You have to understand the defense function here. The defense does not have to prove anything. They only have to suggest reasonable doubt. And this is another reasonable doubt to suggest to the jury and get an inference that, Hey, it may not be correct. So the idea that the defense has to prove something is wrong. Remember that. What they have to do is put Dr. Koby on and take care of not only the hair but also the chloroform, which can be found naturally.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Penny, it`s common sense. I mean, yes, theoretically, hypothetically, within the bounds of possibility, it could be somebody else. But it`s -- it`s Caylee`s, according to just probability.
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I have the same report that you have, and in the report, it says with the odor, that it could be of human origin -- not that it is, but it could be. Now, the defense could go very far with that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: It just seemed like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.
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CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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LEE ANTHONY: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says nearly all the compounds present in early human decomposition were detected in trunk samples, and compounds you would expect to find with animal decomposition were not found in her car trunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Here it is, 35 pages of lab reports confirming a lot of what has been previously leaked regarding air, hair and chloroform. So what is Casey Anthony`s defense team saying about all this?
Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, a reporter with WDBO radio. What is their reaction? Are they worried about this?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: No, just the opposite, actually. Jose Baez said today that, basically, the cat`s out of the bag. The prosecution has shown its hand and that they have nothing, or at least what they have has a lot of holes in it. And while there is some very, you know, concerning, damning even, evidence in these reports, there is also, you know, throughout the reports, words like "not definite" and "preliminary" and "remote possibility." So basically, he says that this casts a shadow of a doubt on the whole prosecution`s argument and that people should be out now looking for Caylee because she`s still alive.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me go to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana PD, who probably gets as aggravated as I do when we hear crazy defense scenarios and it`s sort of, like, anything possible becomes reasonable doubt. Now we hear that the defense possibly will argue that all evidence connected to this car -- in other words, all of the forensics we`re talking about right now -- should be thrown out because it`s possible that other people had access to this car. Do you think that`s going to happen?
DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: No. I think that when you throw out evidence, it`s because people`s constitutional rights were violated. There were no violations here. And frankly, the chain of evidence seems to be pretty solid to the extent that we know that car has been in a garage. We`ve seen pictures of it. So that doesn`t seem to be a problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I think what they`re saying is, sometime after Casey Anthony abandoned it to when it was towed away, that somehow, somebody else may have gotten in there and put this theoretical person that isn`t Caylee`s DNA or hair into the trunk.
SCHWEITZER: Jane, I think that they`re going to be poking holes at this evidence, and that`s why the prosecution and the police can`t just rely on this evidence. I agree with some of your other guests that this doesn`t carry the day. There are some problems with it. But it`s good evidence in light of all of the evidence that they have. And the police have to keep digging, keep interviewing people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. The phone lines have lit up, so many questions about this bombshell evidence just coming in. Pam from Wisconsin. Your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I love the show. With the chloroform that she was looking up on the computer, everyone`s talking about, well, they don`t know if Casey was the one who looked it up. Couldn`t they take fingerprints off the computer and find out who`s actually used it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer. Obviously, one of the lab findings was the presence of chloroform. Tell us a little about that, and then the searches on the computer, Casey Anthony`s computer, for chloroform.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Jane, there was chloroform, a residue of chloroform, found not only in the trunk but in also in the right and left side liner of the trunk of the car. And also, those searches that were on the computer, we don`t know for sure if it was Casey, but it was under Casey`s log-in name. And we don`t know the date of those searches, but it was searches for recipes for chloroform.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Now, Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist and author of "My Therapist Is Making Me Nuts" -- great title -- I`ve heard speculation that people -- and I`m speaking hypothetically -- use chloroform to knock out their kids when they want to go dancing, and that drug addicts sometimes do this. They want to leave their kids, they don`t have a baby-sitter, and they just give them something to knock them out, and sometimes the kids overdose.
MARK HILLMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, to be honest with you, Jane, I truly haven`t heard that. But let`s take a look -- not only from the forensic evidence, but let`s take a look, more importantly, from the psychological and behavioral aspects of Casey. Right before you went to break, you hear Cindy saying, Casey loves Caylee. Now, June 15, she went missing. It was Cindy, not Casey, who a month later called the police and saying that there was a smell of a dead body decomposing. Now, then she changes her story to it`s pizza. Then Casey says the police have this vendetta against her, with a persecution complex. And you begin to question it right from the very beginning of her behavior.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go back to the forensic experts. You heard pizza mentioned because Cindy at one point had said, Dr. Arnall, that, Oh, the smell in the trunk, the foul smell is pizza, it rotted, there were maggots. Apparently, tests were done that debunked that. Tell us about that.
ARNALL: It`s not pizza. They actually went ahead and decomposed a pizza. Their observations were that both the organic and inorganic compounds found in the trunk are of human origin and not a pizza origin. And they made the further observation that when they decomposed a pizza, there were no maggots on the pizza. And this makes some sense. Maggots characteristically like a big juicy piece of decomposing tissue and...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, this makes me sick. All right...
ARNALL: Well, you asked.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no. I understand. I was trying to bring a little levity to a very, very, very depressing and sad situation. But let me -- let me...
ARNALL: My point is that the pizza is going to dry out before it decomposes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Basically, it wasn`t a pizza, Dr. Kobilinsky, and...
ARNALL: It was not a pizza.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and so...
ARNALL: Not a pizza.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they eliminated that explanation. They also eliminated, Koby, the possibility that it was an animal causing the smell in that trunk. So where does that leave us? Because those were the two excuses that were put forth that obviously now have been debunked.
KOBILINSKY: Well, I`m not so sure that their conclusion is correct. They`ve eliminated the possibility of animal decomposition. I`m not convinced of -- of that as a fact. Experts will come to different opinions based upon their tests and observations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, really, is that the way this case is going to be argued? In other words, science doesn`t exist? It`s kind of, like, we can`t trust anything scientific?
KOBILINSKY: No, Jane -- Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You wouldn`t want that.
KOBILINSKY: Well, of course.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your life is about science.
KOBILINSKY: No, I believe in science. But Jane, I do not speak for the defense, and I`m not -- I can`t tell you what strategies are going to be applied. I`m just pointing out that it`s clear to me pizza will not produce the kind of chemicals that you would have in animal or human decomposition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Thirty- five pages of damning lab reports from the FBI in today. Meanwhile, Casey Anthony sits in jail with no bond possible. And she got her first visitor today who wasn`t part of the legal team.
Natisha Lance, tell us about that.
LANCE: I`m sorry. Could you repeat that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. The visitor today, the minister who visited her?
LANCE: The minister -- he is actually someone who has been helping them with these vigils that they`ve been having. And recently, the vigils have not been at the Anthony home anymore. They`ve moved to this church where this pastor is. He came and visited Casey this morning for a few hours.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I have to ask, Leonard Padilla, why a minister? What does that say about Casey`s mental state?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it doesn`t really say anything, other than I believe the minister`s conversation with her would be privileged. And she can create a message system between her, the minister, and Cindy and George, and Lee, even, that will not be -- it`s privileged, just like if it was an attorney. So instead of the attorneys taking time to go over to the jail, they sent the minister over.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police spoke with the facility manager of the tow truck company that was holding Casey Anthony`s car, and he told cops that the smell coming from Anthony`s car reminded him of a smell from another car where a man committed suicide.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it is towed down to the towing company. No odor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She said that she either went down to this tow yard and spoke to the gentleman who gave a statement to police who said that there was this odor, and he said that that smell does not start until a week after it had been at the tow yard.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s Wrecker Service in East Orlando.
ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.
Thirty-five pages of lab reports just coming in confirm what had been leaked previously, regarding air, hair and chloroform. Meantime, Casey Anthony sits in jail, no bond.
I want to bring in the lawyers, because Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter just said, hey, they`re sending in a minister -- and this his theory, you know, we don`t confirmation on this, obviously, because there is privilege there, and so she can talk to him without the Sunshine laws having that conversation ending up on the local news.
We, of course, remember that a lot of the conversations Casey had in jail ended up literally playing on this show and all over the country.
Do you think that`s actually happening with this minister? And I`ll go to Penny Douglass Furr on that.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, most likely they are having conversations that are privileged. But what I wanted to say is, if there are conversations that are being carried then to her family, then you destroy the privilege.
So anything that`s discussed between the two of them is privileged. But once it goes to a third party, it`s not protected anymore.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Do you think, Joe Episcopo, that the authorities could actually prove that or do they have to just assume that the minister is doing what he`s doing, you can`t mess with the minister?
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you could subpoena him and the parents, put them under oath and ask him, what did he tell you? And then they`d have to answer the question.
So that`s one way to find out if it happened, and besides, he doesn`t -- the minister doesn`t have a right to give away that privilege and tell someone else. You can`t do that. It`s like attorney/client.
I can`t ever reveal it unless my client tells me to do it or my client does it. And, again, if a third person is in my office and someone is revealing me something, that other person hears it, it`s not privileged.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well.
EPISCOPO: So the privilege is controlled.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, this was your theory. Is there any other explanation for why her parents and her brother have not visited her in jail since she was re-arrested after the murder indictment came down?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you said it at the first part of your statement, and when we were back there, we had a young lady actually living with her, 24/7, traveling to the attorney`s office back and forth for nine days.
There is a lot of things that the young lady knows that she hasn`t revealed and I have not asked her. But one of the things that they were very upset about was that they could not communicate with each other in the jail or on the phone without it being taped or recorded.
So my thing, and -- the attorney, Mr. Episcopo there told you what happens. And that is that I have no doubt, and the way the family thinks, I have no doubt the minister is the one that`s carrying the messages.
And eventually, law enforcement or the FBI is going to subpoena the parents, and ask them. Because.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what are they achieving by all this alleged subterfuge that we certainly can`t confirm? What -- what kind of communications?
PADILLA: If it --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She has lied to her mother and father over and over again so.
PADILLA: Here`s the thing. Casey might lie to the parents. Cindy will lie to the media. One day she says there was a body decomposing in there, the next day she says it was pizza.
One day she tells us that Casey bought the cross at JCPenny for Caylee. Caylee had been dead for days.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what`s your point? Your point is.
PADILLA: Well, the point is that the family lied.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is mom in denial? Maybe they`re in -- let`s bring in the shrink.
PADILLA: No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist, I mean, nobody can blame a mother for defending her child. I mean, since time in memorial, every defendant has always had their parents there, for the most part, you know, proclaiming their innocence long after -- look at Scott Peterson, you know?
MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": You`re absolutely right, Jane. In the sense that if you`ve lost your granddaughter, why would you want to lose your own daughter? So I think the parents are acting out of a nurturing and protective instinct, as I think most parents would.
We sit here and we judge that, but, again, it`s still a father and a mother trying to do everything they can to protect their own daughter, their own issue.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, nobody knows what it`s like to be Cindy and George Anthony, except Cindy and George Anthony, because they have been through hell and back, I mean, just looking at this video of everything that`s happened to them and the protests outside their home.
Margaret, Colorado, you`ve been hanging on for a while. What is your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just wondering why she doesn`t look traumatized. I lost a grandson in a flash flood last year, and my -- daughter-in-law is traumatized. She shows no emotion. No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you`re referring to who shows no emotion?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother of this child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know -- oh Casey, yes, Casey. Well, we`re going to have to go back to the shrink one more time. I mean there is a lack of affect, except she does seem to smile sometimes when she sees that a lot of cameras are on her.
HILLMAN: Look, we need to understand something that right from the very beginning, when I was on this show, July 25th, I gave a diagnosis of schizoid affect disorder. There is no remorse, there is no emotion.
The problem with what`s going on right now is if you have there is if you have a broken leg, you can see that. But you can`t see true clinical mental illness. That`s the issue that the docs and the forensics will point out in their report.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Ruth, California, your question, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, thank you for taking my call. I`m wondering if the maggots they recovered from the car can be tested for DNA, chloroform, anything else that may have been used on Caylee, and if it would be more conclusive than the hair.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB. Did they actually recovery maggots from the car?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That -- I really don`t know, Jane. That`s an interesting question. But, you know, one thing we`ve got to take into consideration.
Even though there -- the Body Farm says there was an 80 percent conclusion that there was a body in the back of the car, we don`t know who it was, you know, the cadaver dogs hitting in the backyard and in the car during the initial investigations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, absolutely. You know, I want to go back to Donald Schweitzer, a former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., we`re talking about Casey Anthony, sitting in jail, obviously for a long time.
Everybody was hoping that she would somehow tell the whole story, and somehow that would lead to finding Caylee Anthony. Now that she is sitting there, now that she cannot get out on bond, now that she is charged with first-degree murder and a host of other charges, and she has two trials looming, do you think that there is a possibility, and you`ve interviewed suspects of all kinds, even those who were a little cuckoo, that she could crack?
DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: At this time, I think that she`s so lawyered up that the police are never going to get back to her. They`ve lost their opportunity. She has got a protective bubble. I don`t know if this clergyman is coming in there to -- you know to protect the communications, but I`m sure that the attorneys aren`t going to ever let her make another statement that`s incriminating.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I was kind of naive when I first heard clergyman coming in, I thought, you know, maybe she found religion and maybe she`s sort of having a change of heart as often happens with people in prison, suddenly they -- you know, they become different people entirely.
And let`s bring in the attorneys. I mean, what is going on here? Do you think that the prosecution is just preparing for trial, or are they going up and saying, hey, you know, Florida is a death penalty state, you tell us what really went on, you lead us to the body and you know, we`re not going to go for the death penalty? Joe?
EPISCOPO: This isn`t a death penalty case. You don`t have aggravating factors, since you don`t have a body. And you won`t get a death penalty, and there is no point in trying to go for that.
But as far as the minister goes, maybe he is comforting her. Maybe she does need some psychological help. The attorneys can go in there. Their communications are privileged, too. I just think we`re making too much out of this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know, Penny Douglass Furr, if you could say absolutely, certainly, that this is not a death penalty case. There are aggravating and mitigating factors, and in the death penalty phase, they have a mini trial to determine if there are more mitigating or more aggravating factors.
One of them is the age of the victim if the child is under 12. So isn`t that one of the factors?
DOUGLASS FURR: It is. However, I think it`s got to be a little more than it could be, or it would be or it may be. And all these scientific reports are saying, it could be her hair, it may be decomposition in the air.
I think for -- especially for the death penalty, the jury wants to know absolutely that is what happened. And their theory does not exclude every other reasonable theory.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have to leave it there for a second. We`ve got a lot more on the story in just a moment.
In the meantime, a horrific story, the desperate search for a male suspect in the rape and brutal attack of a 16-year-old Chicago girl. The teen victim forced by knifepoint into an alley where she was assaulted, beaten, and her throat slashed.
The perpetrator described as 5`9", 130 pounds, wearing a dark hoodie. A $10,000 reward if you have any information, please call Chicago Police, 312-746-8282.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery in Chicago where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home. An AMBER Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old, Julian King.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was the female, found in the living room floor, has a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in a bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Heart breaking news for Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. Hudson`s brother and mother both found dead in Chicago, and topping it all off, a 7-year-old relative has been snatched from the crime scene and is missing tonight.
For the very latest, let`s go straight out to reporter Kathy Chaney with the "Chicago Defender." She is live at the scene of this double murder.
Kathy, what is the very latest?
KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: The very latest is the police right now are positioning the police vans to bring the bodies out. What we know right now that there are unconfirmed reports that the man they suspect has the 7-year-old boy is his father, William Balfour.
Like I said, those are unconfirmed reports that it is his father, and that`s the connection of Jennifer Hudson`s mother, Darnell Hudson, was found shot in the head in the home`s -- sorry, living room, and her brother -- I believe he`s 29-year-old, her brother Jason was found shot in the chest in one of the bedrooms.
Neighbors said that they heard gunshots earlier this morning, and then another relative came to the home later on, a few hours later, and discovered Jennifer`s mother, called the police, and when the police came, they discovered the body of her brother.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I understand that this child who is missing is the nephew of Jennifer Hudson, it is believed? Would that necessarily make the suspect that they`re pursuing the brother of Jennifer Hudson, the other brother?
Or could you explain the familial connections there?
CHANEY: The unconfirmed reports -- what we`re -- what the speculation is, is that the man who has taken or who has allegedly taken the 7-year-old nephew, Julian King, may be the boy`s father.
The boy`s mother is Julia. I`m not sure where she is right now. I know there are some family members that are on the scene, but they haven`t said who they are exactly, but we`re suspecting that it is the father of the boy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So it`s the father of the boy, but I`ve just been told by producers that it`s not believed to be any brother of Jennifer Hudson.
Now what about motive here? We`ve heard domestic abuse. What exactly does that mean? And can you define the motive a little bit better?
CHANEY: Right now, we just have the preliminary reports that it is just domestic-related. We have no other updates right now for that. I know that the William Balfour who they are looking -- the suspect that has taken the boy, reportedly stole the brother -- the dead brother`s vehicle, the white Chevy Suburban.
I believe that is on the AMBER Alert. So we`re just waiting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What are they looking for now in terms of a vehicle, in terms of a suspect description, and in terms of this child?
There is a high-risk child who is missing right now, a 7-year-old boy. His name is Julian, and he is apparently 135 pounds, which is quite a bit of weight for his age, but this is the description we want to give it to you, because if you see this child, and maybe we can put up a picture of this child, immediately contact the authorities.
So what -- what are they looking for in terms of a vehicle, in terms of suspect description?
CHANEY: In terms of the vehicle, he may be in a white Chevy Suburban. On the AMBER Alert, there are the -- Illinois license plate tags, and -- or he may be in a green or teal Chevy Concord four-door. That`s the kind of car that he may be in.
Now, as far as William Balfour, I don`t have his height or weight, but he is an African-American male. He does have some hair on his head. We don`t have much of a description for him right now at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I understand that you`re there at the scene, live, and you`re just watching authorities as they do their preliminary investigation.
Once again, we`re talking about -- and Jennifer Hudson`s publicist has confirmed, in fact, that it`s her mother and brother who have been shot, and of course, Jennifer Hudson won an Oscar for "Dreamgirls." She became famous, initially, on "American Idol," and she was voted off, and people were angry because she is so incredibly talented.
What a tragedy for her.
Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., what do they do now to find this person and, as we all know, unfortunately, domestic violence is so common?
SCHWEITZER: I think first they have to look at whether or not there has been any family law cases where they can look at addresses on pleadings.
I don`t know if this man was actually living with the victims or not. But if they weren`t, they could go straight to the mother, look for family law pleadings, try to locate where this guy is.
They`ve got to be very careful, though, because this kid`s safety is number one priority, so they`re going to have to be careful in trying to rein this guy back in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, especially because he could be with this child. And this poor child, who is possibly traumatized by quite possibly witnessing this violence.
Let me go back to Kathy Chaney. Is the child believed to have witnessed the violence?
CHANEY: We don`t know that at this point. When family members came, that`s when they discovered that the boy that was in the home, he was missing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
CHANEY: The car was missing, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have to leave it there. We pray that this child is found OK.
Tonight, CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.
DANA DELANEY, ACTRESS: Look how I`ve changed.
I did a television movie called "For Hope," based on the little-known disease, scleroderma. It`s an autoimmune disease, where your body can over produce collagen, rather than making your skin softer it makes it harder. So many people are so disfigured. They don`t want to go out in public and they don`t want to talk about it.
I`m Dana Delaney and my hero is helping to find ground-breaking research to find a cure for scleroderma.
LUKE EVNIN, MEDICAL MARVEL: I`m committed partly because I am a patient. I was diagnosed with scleroderma in 1998. I don`t look sick. And most of the time I don`t feel sick.
But I`ve decided to go make a difference for other scleroderma patients who aren`t so lucky. This can affect almost all the other organ systems.
We still don`t know why someone gets scleroderma. And today it doesn`t have a cure. So I wanted to spend a couple of minutes and see if we could get caught up a little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn again on the side, please.
EVNIN: The scientists do feel like there`s someone looking over their shoulder. I think that does drive them to put everything they can into it. It`s hard to cause scleroderma anything but a curse. There are patients out there that I feel are counting on me.
I want to work for them.
DELANEY: Luke just does it. And that to me is a hero. Don`t just talk about it, do it.
ANNOUNCER: Vote now, CNN.com/heroes.
CNN Heroes is sponsored by.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer, looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: What mom is online getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad. But chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Friends describe Little Rock, Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person. Kind to everyone. But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?
GRACE: When you have multiple hits that shows a certain rage that screams to me, not random.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson.
GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.
Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?
PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: You can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there. Right there. BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Kobe?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Mark Stone, 22, from Buchanan Dam, Texas, killed in Iraq. On a second tour. Also served in Afghanistan. Awarded the Purple Heart, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal and National Defense Service Medal.
He loved restoring his truck and dreamed of being a minister to the troops. He leaves behind father Don, older brother Jason, and best friend Zane.
Mark Stone, an American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. In the meantime, have a happy and a safe weekend.
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