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Nancy Grace

Possible Hudson Nephew Murder Weapon Found

Aired October 29, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, little 7-year-old Julian now also confirmed dead. COD -- cause of death -- the little boy died of multiple gunshot wounds. Jennifer Hudson jets to Chicago to identify the bodies of her family.
As we go to air tonight, police swarm a vacant lot around the corner from where little Julian found dead. Reports are police have recovered the murder weapon, and now we wait for a ballistics match. In the last 24 hours, the stunning new theory emerges that more than one person committed the Hudson murders. Does this mean it`s more likely the case will be cracked?

We are live as Chicago police confirm still -- repeat, still -- no suspects. Hudson`s brother-in-law, William Balfour, on parole for a `99 attempted murder, picked up for questioning. Arrested for cocaine just this past June, he slipped through the cracks with no jail time, walking free at the time Hudson`s family gunned down. And now reports one of his girlfriend blows his alibi. Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American Dreamgirl -- American nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tragedy involving Jennifer Hudson`s family -- - two stunning details. Cops in Chicago say the person who killed Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew may have had some help. And they also may have a weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a person of interest, but that`s not to say that there`s not other individuals that may turn up.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: You all have put my son`s face on worldwide news, like he`s -- like he`s Attila the Hun. You all are painting him, portraying my son as the worst scum of the earth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s say that the cops have the right guy. OK, let`s say that. How did William Balfour then kill two adults, grab a child, put him in a car, get the car across town where nobody saw it, put a cloak of invisibility over the car so that nobody discovered it with the body in the back until Monday morning? Something doesn`t add up.

BALFOUR: If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat it and say my son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Just released, photos of mom Casey Anthony at Blockbuster`s renting a murder movie, including one about a child abandoned by its mother, on the day Caylee last seen. Anthony pleading not guilty to murder one, and a judge sets down the trial date, January 5. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These never-before-seen surveillance photos show accused killer Casey Anthony and her boyfriend walking into Blockbuster just before 8:00 PM on Monday, June 16, just hours after her daughter, Caylee, was last seen alive by Casey`s father at home. The new photos show Casey, without Caylee, arm in arm with her boyfriend after they chose two movies to rent, one called, "Untraceable," about a kidnapper and killer, the other, "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year-old child who has the ability to teleport himself. Johnnie French (ph) rented the movies to Casey and her boyfriend that night. He says there was nothing about the couple that stood out as unusual.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t remember them -- her asking you if you had seen a little girl, that her daughter was missing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. As we go to air, police swarm the area. Has the murder weapon been discovered?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops are saying that they have uncovered evidence from the crime scene. This video shows investigators seizing this evidence right now. This is less than a block away from that SUV where Hudson`s nephew was found dead. Police have called Jennifer Hudson`s brother-in-law, William Balfour, a person of interest.

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond, his brother, had told me he was with Diana that night and he was with Kate in the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than one person may have been involved in these brutal murders.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Balfour missed a parole meeting earlier that day. According to the Associated Press, Balfour told his parole agent, he was, quote, "baby-sitting" on the West side of Chicago. On Monday morning, the body of 7-year-old Julian King was found in this SUV on the West Side of Chicago.

BALFOUR: William is a very smart and intelligent young man. He has never been the type of kid that you could say was a violent type.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to CNN`s Susan Roesgen, standing by where police have swarmed the area. Is it true, a potential murder weapon has been recovered?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is true, Nancy. It could very well be the gun that was used in those murders. Actually, two new scenes here. We`ve got a new memorial. This is a second memorial now, to Julian King, the 7-year-old nephew of Jennifer Hudson, because this is directly next to the curb where that car was found, Nancy, that SUV that they were looking for here. One of the stuffed animals says, Rest in peace, Julian, Jason and Darnell (ph). That would be (INAUDIBLE) the mother of Jennifer Hudson and Jason, her brother. Now, just about an eighth of a mile away, Nancy -- oops, I lost my microphone.

GRACE: That`s OK. Everybody, standing by right there where the evidence we believe has been discovered -- we believe a potential murder weapon has been found in a vacant lot just around the corner where little 7-year-old Julian`s body was found. Cause of death, multiple gunshot wounds to the 7-year-old little boy. There you are seeing video of police searching. They were doing a grid search through trees, through vacant lots, through neighborhoods, and finally, they meet with success. Has the murder weapon been recovered?

Let`s go back to Susan Roesgen. She`s standing just outside that evidence location. Susan, pick it up.

ROESGEN: Well, they brought in a bunch of police recruits, Nancy. They brought in about 50 officers from the academy to do what they call a systemic grid search of several areas related to this crime. That means that some of the cops were out by the Hudson family house, and some of them were here, right here where that SUV was found, just about an eighth of a mile away. Around the corner, down an alley, one officer hit gold, Nancy. He pulled what we could clearly see was a gun out of the shrubbery. He put it in a box and they have now carted it to the Illinois State Police crime lab, where it will be tested and then they will see whether that gun had anything to do with the murders.

GRACE: Do we have any idea of the caliber, Susan?

ROESGEN: No. No, they would not say a thing. In fact, the police detective who spoke would not even say that it was a gun. He would say only that a weapon was recovered. But we saw in our own video there was a gun.

GRACE: And Susan, do we have any idea whether bullets were recovered at the murder scene?

ROESGEN: No. They won`t talk about that. But I assume that they did, Nancy, because they were in that house, and if the bodies were there, you would assume that the bullets were still there somewhere in the bodies or in the walls.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall -- everybody, we are talking your calls live. The breaking news in the Hudson murders, a potential murder weapon has just been discovered as we go to air, just around the corner from where little 7-year-old Julian`s body was discovered.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. Dr. Arnall, typically, when you have multiple gunshots as cause of death, you will get at least one bullet out of one of the bodies.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s right. And I think reports already indicate that there`s still a bullet in the car. Also, I believe I read that there are shell casings at the house. So they probably have shell casings and a projectile, a bullet, to compare to the gun.

GRACE: Arnall, I don`t care about the casing right now. What I`m worried about is how we`re going to match up the bullets taken from the bodies or at the crime scene to this gun. A casing doesn`t help me at all. But if there`s a bullet in one of the bodies -- I mean, yes, off a casing, I can get a caliber match, but I can`t get, like, the fingerprint ID that this is the gun that fired the shots.

I want to go to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD. Schweitzer, thank you for being with me. Explain quickly how we`re going to do a ballistics match.

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Well, Nancy, let me correct you on one thing. You can actually find fingerprints -- gun fingerprints on shell casings. I think the other guests would agree with that. There`s usually pin markings on that. But with the projectiles, you`ll get striation marks that are characteristic of the barrel of the gun.

GRACE: David (SIC), that`s what I`m referring to. Could you please explain how it`s done now?

SCHWEITZER: Well, what will happen in the crime lab is the experts will shoot the gun into a controlled setting, and then take out projectiles, compare them in a microscope with the projectiles that they`ve located. They`ll also take a look at the barrel itself under a microscope.

GRACE: And back to Dr. Michael Arnall. One thing that would concern me, trying to get a ballistics match from the bullets potentially in the body is if the bullet goes through bone or organs, does that ruin the bullet, Doctor, for a potential ballistics match?

ARNALL: It can deform the bullet, but it frequently does not deform the bullet sufficient to obscure those little marks that you`ve been talking about. There`s a good chance they will get a match if it is the murder weapon.

GRACE: And you know, it`s not a very difficult process at all.

ARNALL: No, it`s not.

GRACE: You take the weapon that`s found, say this weapon in this vacant lot, you put the ammunition in it, fire it, for instance, into a barrel of water. You get it out, and when you look at that bullet compared to a bullet taken from the body, it`s almost like a fingerprint, Dr. Arnall, because...

ARNALL: It certainly is.

GRACE: The way it works is, when a gun is created, is manufactured, the metal cools and it leaves certain marks inside the barrel. And as the bullet hurtles through, it leaves striation marks on the bullet. Have you ever seen or made that comparison, Doctor?

ARNALL: Right. Every time we take a bullet out of a body, we look for those little striations, the exact ones talking about. And when we see those striations, we know that ballistics will be able to compare those to the gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going through all the evidence that we picked up. We`re following every possible lead that might develop. When they come up, we run them down. And our detectives are continuing to work around the clock, following up any possible leads might be (INAUDIBLE) available and out there (INAUDIBLE) We will solve this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALFOUR: By no means did my son do this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... way far deeper than what people in the press and the police officers is dealing with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody`s shocked to hear the news that there`s more to this story, the very real possibility of a second individual, according to "The Chicago Tribune."

GRACE: What is your son`s alibi for the time of the shooting?

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends.

I asked the police so that my son could talk to his sister because they`re real close. She -- if he did have something to do with it, maybe she could get it out of him to help with the investigation. They refusing my child to talk to their brother!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think he did have something to do with it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I don`t want to cuss, but no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air, police swarming the area near where little 7- year-old Julian`s body was found. This is the nephew of Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. A weapon has been found in a vacant lot near where the body was recovered.

I want to go back to Dr. Michael Arnall and Donald Schweitzer. First to you, Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD. I take issue with something that you just said. I am talking about a ballistics comparison between a bullet and a gun found in a vacant lot. And you are telling me that you can get striation marks off of a casing? I`ve never seen it done, and I`d like to know, have you ever seen it done?

SCHWEITZER: I`ve never seen that done, and I hope I didn`t say that. What I meant is that you could get some identifying information off of the casing, so it is helpful in identification of the gun.

GRACE: Possibly, maybe a fingerprint? But the caliber -- there are a million .38-caliber handguns in Chicago! How is that going to help me?

SCHWEITZER: Well, if we know that the gun, for example, was a .45 caliber gun and you`ve got .45-caliber casings in the vehicle, that`s some evidence that it was -- you know, the same gun. And then you could look at the pin mark from the weapon.

GRACE: Pin marks? Have you ever, ever seen one pin mark absolutely distinguished from another pin mark on a casing, ever?

SCHWEITZER: No, I haven`t.

GRACE: We`re taking your calls. Out to Don in Ohio. Hi, Don.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I hate to ask this question, but I never heard where the sister was when all this was going on.

GRACE: You know what? In cases like these, everybody`s a suspect and nobody`s a suspect.

To Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. Let`s just clarify where the sister was.

ROESGEN: You got it, Nancy. I called today. She works for a bus company, and we had heard that she worked driving the school bus. She does drive a school bus. There was no school here in Chicago last Friday. However, when I talked to the owner of that bus company and said, Well, was she off work, and he said, No, she was working. She was driving another bus, not a school bus. Because the thinking is that she`s the person -- we know that she`s the person who discovered the bodies of her mother and brother at about 3:00 o`clock in the afternoon. I thought that meant that she`d finished her route, her school route, and then found the bodies.

GRACE: Right.

ROESGEN: We don`t know really where she was or what kind of bus she was driving, but she was at work at least until 3:00 o`clock, when she came home.

GRACE: OK. So it`s my understanding she had been alibied at the get- go.

To Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author. Dr. Gardere, it is very, very rare for a woman to commit such a murder as this, statistically.

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. Absolutely. And we also have to look at the situation here that her son was also killed, and so this is something that definitely, she would not want to do, and the motivation just does not seem to be there.

GRACE: Yes. I mean, statistically, it`s virtually impossible.

We are taking your calls. To Lori in Maryland. Hi, Lori.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering -- they have the person of interest, but does anybody know where the biological father of this boy is?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender" joining us in Chicago. Kathy, what do we know about the bio dad?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": The father -- he was not around until Saturday when they made the public plea for, you know, whoever had Julian to come forward, and you know, come back with his safe return. That`s the only time that we have seen Greg (ph) King at this situation was Saturday.

GRACE: What more can you tell us, Kathy?

CHANEY: Greg King -- he used to be involved with Julia. And from my understanding, reports say that he and Jason Hudson, the slain brother -- they had -- they were mixed up in some type of drug deal. The house was raided in 2004, the house over there where the bodies were found. And Greg King -- he did go to jail on a drug conviction. He served about a couple of years. Jason Hudson -- he did not get any jail time, but he was told to sign up for, like, a drug abuse program. So he was not -- he did not serve any jail time.

GRACE: Also joining us tonight, Natalie Thomas. She is the deputy news editor with "US Weekly" magazine. Ms. Thomas, thank you for being with us. Does Balfour, the person of interest, have an attorney yet?

NATALIE THOMAS, "US WEEKLY": Thanks for having me. As we know, he does not have an attorney. He has -- we`re not sure whether he denied an attorney or he has just not been offered one yet, but as we know now, he does not have an attorney now.

GRACE: Are there any other potential persons of interest? What about the emerging theory that more than one person may have been involved with the Hudson murders?

THOMAS: Sources are telling us that there may be another person involved, but as of right now, there have been no other persons of interest named besides William Balfour.

GRACE: And any chance, according to your research, that this was a random attack, Natalie?

THOMAS: No. We don`t believe that it was a random attack. We have - - while sources admitted to us, and neighbors and family members, that it is a dangerous neighborhood that they live in, no one believes that it was a random act of violence. Everyone believes that it was a domestic-related issue.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent, standing by where police have just swarmed the area and recovered what could be the murder weapon. Why did the family insist on staying in the area? They said that gunshots were a routine happening, that they heard them so much, they hardly paid attention to them anymore.

ROESGEN: Sure, Nancy. But you know, home is where your heart is. This is where Jennifer Hudson grew up. This is where the whole family lived, big, beautiful three-story home -- until this happened, of course. Yes, it may be bad, but it`s their home, their hood. They weren`t moving anywhere.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, and Alan Ripka, defense attorney out of New York. First to you, Susan Moss. Weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: With this gun, they`re going to find someone, and ultimately, a conviction will be done. This is the beginning, and now the police have their work cut out for them. But with finding this essential key, it`s going to be only time until they crack this case.

GRACE: Renee, once you`re named a person of interest, do you believe the right to have Miranda rights is imposed?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, any time someone is in custody, even though he`s in custody for a parole violation, if they`re talking to him, all he has to say is the word "lawyer," and they`ll stop.

GRACE: And to you, Alan Ripka. Do you really believe he was picked up on a minor infraction, like not reporting to his parole officer?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, they probably used that as an excuse just to get a hold of him because, obviously, that wouldn`t have been enough to hold him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only an animal would do something like that, man, a heartless person, a heartless person. The child is innocent, man. He didn`t deserve nothing like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On what appears to be his MySpace page, Balfour describes himself as a proud parent to his stepson, Julian.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are now learning Balfour missed a parole meeting. According to the Associated Press, Balfour told his parole agent he was, quote, "baby-sitting" on the West Side of Chicago. On Monday morning, the body of 7-year-old Julian King was found in this SUV on the West Side of Chicago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air, we learn police have swarmed the area where little 7-year-old Julian`s body was found. A potential murder weapon has been discovered in a vacant lot just around the corner.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Ripka, I`m not buying it. The jails are too crowded to do a parole revocation because somebody misses a meet-and-greet with their parole officer. Uh-uh! That`s not why they picked him up. Now, yesterday, AP wire said it was over a weapons violation. You know a convicted felon can`t have a weapon. Now today, AP is coming off that and saying he missed a meeting. They did not pick him up just because he missed a meeting.

RIPKA: Well, Nancy, as you know, the police will use any excuse to pick up a person of interest or a suspect, just like in the Caylee Anthony case...

GRACE: That`s what I`m saying. There`s more to it than just missing a meeting, Alan.

RIPKA: Well, obviously, there is. In this particular case, they said he missed a meeting, but they wanted to use it to bring him in and question him. So they really brought him in under false pretenses, quite frankly.

GRACE: Oh, don`t start, Ripka!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Darnell Donerson was found in her living room. Jason Hudson`s body was in his bedroom. Both were shot multiple times amid signs of a struggle. Like his grandmother and his uncle, little Julian was found shot to death.

The murders have captured the hearts across the country, as much as for the senseless brutality, as with the star at the center of this tragedy.

Jennifer Hudson worked her way to the top the old fashioned way, through talent and work. And the Oscar winner often credits her family for her success.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing, and positive people around me, you know? They reminded me of who I was and what I wanted.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tonight what many want for her are answers and peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Right now, police swarming the area. We believe a potential murder weapon has been found about a block away in a vacant lot. This is a block away from where little 7-year-old Julian`s body was discovered in a white SUV.

I want to go back to Natalie Thomas, the deputy news editor with "US Weekly."

Natalie, I want to hear more about the murder victims. What do we know about them?

NATALIE THOMAS, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": We know, Nancy, that they were a very close family. Jennifer was very close with her mother, and her brother. She was just in our offices about a month ago and spoke to us about how close she was with them.

And her new album, the liner notes, she`s tributing(ph) her brother and her sister and how much they have meant to her success and they`ve been a support. Even in her Oscar speech in 2007, she thanked all of them profusely, and how much -- you know, expressed how much they meant to her.

She was very close with all of them. And little Julian, as well. Friends have told us that they -- she was like a second mother to him. And that they would spend a lot of time together when she was in town and she would spoil him with gifts and he would always run around talking about her.

GRACE: To Kathy Chaney with the "Chicago Defender," what more can you tell me about the murder victims themselves?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Just they were loving people, everyone loved them. They were very nice in the neighborhood. People would always say that, you know, you come around and Jason Hudson, no matter what time of day it was, if he was out there, he, you know, fire up the grill.

They were just really family-oriented. They loved the neighborhood and they just loved people and everyone loved them.

GRACE: Well, I think the biggest testament to the mother is that she raised Jennifer Hudson. And now that she is so incredibly famous -- to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent -- you see big stars, and you see pictures of stories about them coming in and out of bars, being drunk, doing cocaine, mistreating their fans.

Never anything like that at all about Jennifer Hudson. And to me, that`s a testament to her mother.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, ON LOCATION WHERE EVIDENCE JUST RECOVERED: I think that, and also, Nancy the fact that we haven`t seen her in this whole tragedy here in Chicago. Obviously, she is grieving, but you know a lot of celebrities would be out there, talking about themselves, talking about the tragedies.

Not Jennifer Hudson. We don`t know where she is, except that we understand that she`s somewhere with a lot of security, and she`s not out there talking about it.

GRACE: Apparently has cancelled all of her upcoming appearances.

Joining me right now is a very special guest, and we are taking your calls live. "American Idol" finalist, I`m sure you all remember Diana DeGarmo, a friend of Jennifer Hudson`s.

Diana, thank you for being with us. I know you two were very, very close during "Idol." Are the other contestants in touch with you regarding the Hudson murders?

DIANA DEGARMO, AMERICAN IDOL FINALIST, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: Definitely. My phone has been ringing off the hook all weekend. I actually was traveling on Friday when the news broke and didn`t get the message until Saturday morning when I woke up with my voice box full of all sorts of people calling me, saying have you heard? Have you heard? Have you talked to Jennifer?

And unfortunately, due to the tragedy, none of us have really been able to get in touch with her and send to her -- send her our condolences like we wish we could. But it`s just -- we are all just in shock and cannot believe that such a tragedy happened to someone, but let alone happened to someone that we actually know.

GRACE: And someone that is apparently just as beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside.

What was her relationship with her mother?

DEGARMO: She was so close to her mother. I mean, as close as a mother and daughter could be. And she always referred to my mother and I and how -- she was like, oh, my gosh, I`m just like -- just you and your mother.

And she did everything for her mother. She really -- her mother and her brother and her sister, her family was her whole world. That`s what she did everything for. And to lose everyone, almost everyone, and a child, you know, in one weekend, it`s -- it`s just -- it`s an unbelievable and unthinkable thing.

GRACE: And, you know, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, my thought having been a crime victim myself, that I knew all about it until I had the twins. And now the thought -- and I don`t care if they`re up in their 20s, like Jennifer Hudson, that I wouldn`t be there to help them as they go through life -- I mean, there`s a lot of love in the world, but there is nothing like a mother`s love.

I think this is one of the worst things that could happen to Jennifer Hudson, to lose her mother, other than losing your child, is to lose your mother.

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Yes. And from everything that I`ve read, from what I know about her, from even studying her, because I`ve been a big fan of hers, she was very, very close to her mother.

So by losing her mother, she`s actually lost a lifeline, but she`s also lost a brother and a nephew, as your other guest stated that she was close to. This is an incredible psychological blow to her and will forever change her.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Michelle in Wisconsin. Hi, Michelle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell me, how long was Julian deceased? Do they have any idea?

GRACE: How long had the little boy been dead?

Susan Roesgen, do we know a time of death on the little boy?

ROESGEN: That is a question of the century in this case. It will either make or break the cops` case on William Balfour, Nancy. We don`t know. We asked the medical examiner that specifically. How long had the child been dead? And the medical examiner won`t tell us.

I think it`s because medical examiner wants to get its story straight with the cops.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver, look, it`s not a pretty picture, I understand that. We`re talking about a 7-year-old little boy shot multiple times.

Aside from the pathology, you know, of someone that would do that, what can you -- the psychology of someone that could do that, how can you determine whether the boy was kept alive for a period of time, after the other shootings? How can you put a time of death on it?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: They`re going to determine whether some common post-mortem changes occurred. They`re going to see if the body was stiff when they found it. They`re going to see if the settling of blood had fixed.

Those aren`t very accurate, but they will help to determine whether the boy died, for instance, the day the body was discovered, or perhaps a couple of days earlier.

GRACE: And -- but rigor sets in within a couple hours, correct?

ARNALL: It starts setting within a couple hours, and it comes to a full completion in perhaps about 12 hours. After 36 hours, it starts going away.

GRACE: So that would be a way to time it.

To Donald Schweitzer, former detective out of Santa Ana P.D. -- Donald, what else would they be looking for to determine the time of death on the little boy? What any clues inside the SUV they could look for, maybe receipts?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: It`s -- those were things that you would look for. But you also look for how long has that vehicle been there? These people in the neighborhood who would identify that truck as being there three days, two days or perhaps just a couple hours. So that`s a good sign.

GRACE: Exactly. Excellent point.

Back to Susan Roesgen standing there at the evidence location. How long had the SUV been parked there?

ROESGEN: I have heard different times, Nancy. Some people said that this car was -- I mean four feet from where I`m standing right now on Saturday. Others insist that they didn`t see this car in this neighborhood until Monday morning. So we just don`t know.

GRACE: OK. I want to go back to the weapon that has been recovered. Tell me what you know.

ROESGEN: Well, we know from looking at the video that it`s obviously a gun. And we know that one of the police recruits at the academy here in Chicago found this in some shrubbery about an eighth of a mile from where I`m standing in a back alley and we know that the police, however, are not will to go call it anything but a weapon.

They wouldn`t even say it was a gun or what caliber or what type. But they have sent this weapon to the Illinois state police crime lab for testing.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.

Renee, so often we see the weapon discarded right there at the scene. This is not that unusual.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s not unusual, Nancy. But what a great find, because with the weapon and what you haven`t mentioned yet is potential blow-back.

They could possibly determine whether or not there`s blow-back from only one victim, and that weapon. Maybe there`s another weapon that hadn`t been located, and thus the theory that there may be an accomplice, Nancy.

GRACE: And very quickly.

ROCKWELL: Someone other than.

GRACE: . to Diana Degarmo, it`s true that Jennifer Hudson had just gotten engaged, right?

DEGARMO: Yes. Correct. And you know, so many wonderful things were happening to her with a new movie, a brand new hit record, getting engaged and then her entire private life being completely turned upside down and it`s so hard. It`s so hard.

GRACE: Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, joining us tonight.

Everybody, as we go to break, at your request photos of the twins. They`re brand new. I`ll post them.

They weren`t feeling well today, so this morning they had to stay in. And this is their new playground. I didn`t have the heart to stop them. They went through the whole roll.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning new photos released today show tot mom Casey Anthony renting a movie about a kidnapper and killer the same day police believe her daughter, Caylee, was murdered.

The never-before-seen surveillance pictures show Casey Anthony and her boyfriend walking into a local video store hours after her daughter was last seen alive. They rented a movie called "Untraceable" about a kidnapper and killer and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year- old child.

The video store worker said there was nothing unusual about the couple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just seemed like two people who wanted to watch a movie and wanted to get in and get out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, on the day that police theorize little Caylee is murdered, she`s renting two murder movies? One of them is about a child being abandoned by its mom?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They said that when she went to the store, she didn`t show any signs of being upset. She never asked anyone if they had seen her daughter, didn`t look upset that she had lost her daughter, didn`t seem nervous, just didn`t attract any attention whatsoever.

In fact, the clerk at the Blockbuster didn`t even remember helping them until we asked about it, and he saw the video and talked to his manager about it.

GRACE: You know, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author, what does this say about her frame of mind?

GARDERE: Well, it seems that she is fitting.

GRACE: Renting a movie.

GARDERE: Yes, if she did this dastardly deed of murdering her daughter, if she did this, then she fits perfectly into the profile of being a sociopath, meaning that she does not have any conscience and certainly she can almost numb herself.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

GARDERE: . to what is going on in her life.

GRACE: Even if you want to believe she did not murder the child, if the child was truly missing, what is she out doing renting a video?

GARDERE: Well -- and that also speaks to what we`ve talked about for a long time, Nancy.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, there they are, all snugged up at Blockbuster.

GARDERE: Yes, yes. but very quickly. This is a young woman who has her demeanor and her behavior has been completely inappropriate to anything going on in her life.

GRACE: To Rory O`Neill with West Wood One. Weigh in, Rory.

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, the pictures are just bizarre to look at. If you look at them all arm in arm and lovey- dovey, like you say, and then -- and knowing that perhaps just hours earlier that Casey had killed her own daughter.

GRACE: I want to go out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is now rounding up bounty hunters across the country to join in the search for Caylee, he`s joining us out of Sacramento, California.

Leonard, thanks for being with us. What can you tell me? Can you enlighten me about a new theory that has just been put out there that mom Casey Anthony purchased two crosses from JCPenney`s, one of which she put on little Caylee`s body?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, we started -- myself and Rob started asking about this when we were back there, because Cindy -- when we asked her about the crosses she bought, and where she bought it, she says she bought it at JCPenney`s and bought it for Caylee, which struck us as a bit strange.

So here, two weeks ago, we started checking to see if there was two crosses that had been purchased, one for her and one for Caylee. Now that in and of itself is something that the FBI, I think, has the answer to.

However, going back to the 16th where she purchased those two blockbuster -- rented the two movies. Think about it. The very next day she`s got that boyfriend she is snuggled up to, she`s got his jeep and she`s out there talking to Chris, another guy that she`s jumping in and out of bed with, and driving Tony`s jeep.

GRACE: Hey, Padilla, I don`t care who she is -- as you say jumping in and out of bed with. That`s not a felony.

PADILLA: No, it`s not. But think about the state of mind.

GRACE: If that were a felony, probably everybody on this panel would be behind bars right now.

PADILLA: Think about the state of mind.

GRACE: Yes, state of mind.

PADILLA: State of mind.

GRACE: Let`s talk about that. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.

Susan moss, he is right. That certainly shines a light on her state of mind.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. She said that she was looking for her daughter. But apparently she wasn`t in the Disney section. I don`t know. She is -- after her daughter goes missing, what is she watching the credits to see somebody else`s name to use to blame for this tragedy?

GRACE: To the defense lawyers, Renee and Alan, go ahead and tell me, Renee, how it doesn`t matter, there`s no playbook for grief. Everyone reacts differently.

Go ahead, explain why, even in the best-case scenario with her daughter missing she is out with a boyfriend renting videos.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, at this point, and if you take her story that her daughter is not missing and she is looking for that daughter that time and the one thing that I would do as a defense attorney.

GRACE: No, no, you didn`t finish your sentence. You take it that she is looking for the daughter and -- what? Looking where, in the Blockbuster?

ROCKWELL: At this point -- at this point she -- nobody says that she is -- from her camp, that she`s killed the daughter. She`s given the daughter.

GRACE: No, no. You still haven`t finished your sentence.

ROCKWELL: . to the babysitter. She gave the daughter to the babysitter.

GRACE: Yes, but the daughter is missing and she is out representing murder movies.

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, she is not at this point totally convinced that the daughter is gone. And they look for.

GRACE: No.

ROCKWELL: If you believe what she`s saying.

GRACE: She knows the daughter is gone, on that date, the daughter is already gone, according to her, with Zenaida Gonzalez.

ROCKWELL: And she`s not completely frantic looking for her daughter, which means that if you believe what she says, and I`ll give it to you that she is a fantastic liar, then that plays in with the story that she is just haphazardly kind of looking around for this daughter.

GRACE: Alan, go ahead. Give me your best shot.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At the end of the day, Nancy, it doesn`t mean she murdered the child. However.

GRACE: I thought that`s what your best shot would be.

RIPKA: Well, no, it is not. That`s just part of it. However in this particular case.

GRACE: You could have given me the one-two punch. OK. Go ahead, I`m ready.

RIPKA: As she has said all along, she did not believe the child was gone or killed or missing forever, and was searching for this child in her own way with her family and as a result, she`s with her boyfriend trying to calm herself with a movie.

That`s the best there is. That`s the best we got.

GRACE: Calm herself with a movie. Let`s see that video again. I don`t know that calming herself is exactly the way I would describe them walking arm and arm through the murder movie.

Back to Kathi Belich, with WFTV, where do you believe the search is going to commence on November 8th? At what area?

BELICH: Well, we`ve been told that areas near the airport -- 35 percent of the area near the airport where they wanted to search last time was covered with water because of the storm. So they are going back to that area to search again hoping for better luck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s aged 3, is alive. I`m going to find her. I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to Bonnie in Nevada. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Your twins are just adorable.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the grand jury indicted her on the murder charges, will she still face the fraud charges?

GRACE: She is still facing the fraud charges, not the child neglect charges, though.

To Heidi in Pennsylvania, hi, Heidi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you and I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your twins are gorgeous.

GRACE: Thank you. I`m blessed. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is for Leonard Padilla. Does Leonard believe that Casey still has an accomplice?

GRACE: Leonard?

PADILLA: Not at the -- not at the time that she killed the child. Possibly since then individuals have taken up helping her and -- and to some extent Lee himself just sent out an e-mail to a lot of people, stating do not send money to Tim Miller at Equusearch. I don`t want him involved anymore.

A very rude, very rude letter to a gentleman that has done nothing but help the Anthony family. Now if that means that he`s got something that he doesn`t want found, who knows?

GRACE: Leonard, I -- don`t think that Lee Anthony is trying to stop discovery of Caylee`s remains. I think that he just wants the appearance out there that he totally believes the child is alive and that mom Casey Anthony did not kill her.

I think that he and Casey Anthony are very, very close.

PADILLA: That definitely is something but it`s not reasonable to stop something that -- it doesn`t hurt.

GRACE: OK, with that, I agree.

PADILLA: It doesn`t hurt.

GRACE: Yes, I agree. I agree.

PADILLA: Because he can still look for Caylee as if she`s alive. Let the people like Tim Miller`s people look for her in that state of not being alive.

GRACE: Agree.

PADILLA: But he goes out and look for her being alive. He hasn`t done anything.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop. I want to remember Army Private First Class Adam Marion, 26, Mount Airy, North Carolina, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart and other medals including the Bronze Star.

Always smiling, loved golf, hunting, mentoring children. Leaves behind parents Pam and Donnie, sister Adrienne.

Adam Marion, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And, tonight, a special thank you goes out to Laura Simmons from Harker Heights, Texas for this beautiful cross point. It`s for the twins. It says, "Like two peas in a pod, two gifts from God."

Thank you, Laura.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END