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Casey Anthony Attorney Being Investigated for Hugging his Client

Aired October 31, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee not seen for 19 long weeks. Mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars, not a single visit from family, only jailhouse meetings with her attorney.
And now we learn defense attorney Jose Baez gets a little too close for comfort, Baez caught hugging Casey Anthony behind jailhouse walls in direct violation of strict security rules. Now, reports are that the Florida bar is even launching an investigation.

Grandparents George and Cindy speak out for the first time since the release of bombshell forensic evidence, the Anthonys still insisting little Caylee is alive and say mom Casey will go to prison for life to protect her little girl. Five thousand tips pour in, as mom Casey caught on surveillance video renting a murder movie on the day Caylee was last seen. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, George and Cindy Anthony speaking out for the first time since forensic tests from the FBI show evidence of decomposition and chloroform were present in Casey Anthony`s car.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: George and I don`t believe that Caylee is in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony behind bars facing murder charges, but that hasn`t stopped her defense attorney, Jose Baez, from hugging her not once, but twice, inmate contact strictly against security policy, Baez eventually telling officials he didn`t intend to break the rules and would make an effort to remember.


LALAMA: And tonight, "American Idol"superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson devastated by violent crime. Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home, her 7-year-old nephew kidnapped from the scene, then confirmed dead from multiple gunshot wounds.

Just moments ago, police announced they have the murder weapon. Forensics confirm a .45-caliber handgun recovered in a vacant lot is the same used in the Hudson family murders. Jennifer Hudson under tight security. A private funeral set for Monday. Tonight, an "American Idol" tragedy.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police have identified the weapon that killed Hudson`s brother, mother and her nephew. Today they confirmed that the gun they found Wednesday is the same weapon used in all of the murders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The weapon itself is a .45-caliber semi-automatic handgun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are still trying to figure out whether the gun could be linked to the person of interest. That person is William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, Julia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a person of interesting, but that`s not to say that there`s not other individuals that may turn up.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: If Julia felt that William was a threat, don`t you think she would have put a restraining order on him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if it`s the wrong guy. Balfour`s been locked up in custody for six days now. They haven`t found anything? They`re probably water boarding him in there, and yet they haven`t found anything on him.

BALFOUR: So it`s always two sides of the story. You all are painting him, portraying my son as being the worst scum of the earth.


LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, Casey Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, has been reprimanded not once but at least twice for hugging his client during jailhouse visits, touching a client strictly prohibited for fears contrabands could be passed, Baez originally upset and told jail officials he hugs all his clients.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey spent several hours a day in her attorney`s office while on home confinement. Many speculated why the mother of missing Caylee was spending so much time there.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I would implore you as responsible journalists to question what`s going on here. You can all understand why she`s spending so much time in my office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jail says Casey Anthony has every right to work on her case with her attorney and her house arrest cannot interfere with that. But six hours every day for a child neglect case?

BAEZ: And I don`t care what rumor and what speculation is out there. Casey trusts me and trusts that I will do my job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not intimidated, not in any way, shape or form.

BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. I would again ask you and employ (ph) all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst.


LALAMA: Well, it`s the case of the hugging attorney. Here we go. Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150, is it true that the state is investigating this?

MARK WILLIAM, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, this is not a trick-or-treat deal whatsoever. There`s a woman in Indiana who saw the story on a Web site of a local TV station. She contacted the Florida Bar Association, the association now looking into the case of the attorney hugging his client.

Attorney Jose Baez says he hugs all of his clients. However, he was caught twice at the Orange County jail hugging Casey Anthony. The last time that we know of was on Monday night. He stopped in for a visit, they were hugging, and that, of course, is against jail policy whatsoever. They`re afraid they`re going to pass contraband between one another. So that`s -- that`s where that is right now.

LALAMA: Wow. Well, there`s all kinds of, you know, crazy, tacky things that people are implying as a result of this. Let`s go to our attorneys, and let`s just see how cozy they do get. Anne Bremner, defense attorney, is it OK to hug your client?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I was just thinking, Pat, have you hugged your lawyer today?


LALAMA: Well, I live with one, so I`m allowed to.

BREMNER: There you go. We all need a hug sometimes, I`ll tell you. But you know, the fact is, it`s OK. And I went to the Gerry Spence school. He`s one of the best lawyers in the nation, and he says you`ve got to love your client first, and if you don`t, get out. And so you`ve got that affection with your client. You got to really stand behind them. In the jail, a little bit different. But they search -- you know, he`s got -- is he passing contraband? No. This seems to be something that`s really blown way out of proportion in terms of what happened. It was well-intentioned.

LALAMA: You can say what you want about Mr. Baez, but he doesn`t appear to be carrying a file in his back pocket.

BREMNER: Exactly.

LALAMA: I don`t get that feeling. Let`s go right to our callers on this Halloween night. Lisa from Florida. Hello, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you doing?

LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment. I wanted to know -- have they ever -- or a question, actually. Have they ever found the carseat that the baby was photographed in the picture with?

LALAMA: The carseat? OK, Nikki Pierce, reporter with WDBO radio. What do you know about the baby`s carseat?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Actually, I believe that it was found in the car when the car was recovered. That was one of the things that made investigators question what the deal was and where Caylee was, because her carseat was there, as well as her doll and a couple of other things that she generally wouldn`t be without.

LALAMA: And of course, our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, now consultant to the Casey Anthony case. That carseat obviously would have been something that would have been thoroughly investigated.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, there`s no doubt about it, Pat. Anything in that vehicle would have been looked at very carefully, would have been sent to the laboratory, DNA testing, trace evidence testing. Everything would have been reviewed. We haven`t heard anything about it yet, but you know, I think this is potentially, at least according to the state, a crime scene. So there`s no doubt no stone would have been left unturned.

LALAMA: Let`s get back to the hugging incident, since that seems to be the big event of the day. There are some other issues to talk about. He`s seen his client -- Mr. Baez -- seen his client 7 out of 14 days. You know, let me ask Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former FBI agent, is that so odd? I mean, I know lawyers, if they`re interested in -- in the concern for their client, they`re there and they`re there around the clock.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think this case is consuming Jose Baez. And I think that when she was out on home detention, the only place she could go was to be with counsel, and she spent an inordinate amount of time there. That was the only time that she could get away. I don`t think there`s anything to that. I don`t think there`s anything to the hugging. People are distraught. It`s an emotionally-based case. He comes in, he sees his client, he hugs her, he sits down and he interviews her. There`s nothing wrong with that at all.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, you know, it seems to me he would have been smart to come out and say, Look, my client is in distress, and I`m the only one there for her. He sounded a little bit almost too defensive. Methinks thou dost protest too much, instead of coming out and using it as a positive. Am I just reading way too much into this?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s hard to tell with somebody like Casey Anthony, who is a chameleon. She plays roles, and here she may be playing the damsel in distress...

LALAMA: Right.

SAUNDERS: ... to his Lancelot, and he`s going to rescue her. But it is kind of strange that he said, reportedly at one point that he didn`t know the rule in the jail. I wouldn`t want a defense attorney who doesn`t know basic rules in jails. It`s a little suspicious.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and helping to search for Caylee Anthony, did you sit close to her?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: ... say something on behalf of Jose. While we were back there for those 10 days, I can tell you this. She went to the office simply to get away from her mother and her dad. I`m telling you. That`s the fact. Jose`s family is just a great family. I may have disagreements with Jose on other things. That was just bad judgment on his part.

And the reason that security prevents contact visits by attorneys is because, look back in the history of the California prison breaks, back in the `60s and `70s. They were always things that were conducted by an attorney, bringing in a handcuff key or gun to a prisoner. And it doesn`t matter how innocent that prisoner looks, the security in those jails has to be firm and it applies to everybody.

As far as what`s going on there, it was just bad judgment on his part on this particular issue. He made a mistake. And you know, it`s just a mistake that he made, you know? He knows what the rules are.

LALAMA: And you know, and just very quickly -- I`ve just got a few seconds -- she does probably -- not encouraging physical contact, but encouraging the "Come to me and help me" sort of routine, which a lot of people could easily fall into. Yes or no, Leonard?

PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. I`ve said this before. The night that she bailed out of jail, she actually fixed dinner for my nephew.

LALAMA: Right, right.

PADILLA: Instead of sitting there and saying, OK, let`s get a plan together, let`s go look for Caylee, she fixed dinner for him.

LALAMA: Right. Yes. I think that`s part of her MO.

All right, as we go to break, new photos of Nancy`s twins. Here are little Lucy, of course, and John David in their pre-Halloween party T- shirts and boo (ph) socks. And here they are in their adorable costumes. Wow! Lucy is a flower and John David is a pirate, and mommy -- we know this is true -- is a tiger. We`ll also post these on the show`s Web site at Good for you, Nancy. Have a great night with the kids.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey Anthony was released from jail back in September, her attorney, Jose Baez, kept her close to him and away from the media. Now that Anthony is back in jail, Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The first incident happened two weeks ago. A corrections officer saw Baez hug Anthony, and Baez was advised that physical contact with inmates is prohibited. Then a week later, on October 21, another report said Baez was again observed hugging his client.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, it was just in the last 24 hours that Cindy and George Anthony did a media interview, I believe with a local media. They had some interesting things to stay. Of course, they are standing by their daughter, saying that they truly believe that Caylee is alive and floating from location to location someplace around the globe.

All right. I want to go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department, former member of the FBI joint terrorism task force. You know, I mean, these are grandparents. They want to believe in their daughter. But what do you think of the position they`re taking?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is a law enforcement officer`s nightmare. The position they`re taking is what grandparents would probably take, either hoping that the child is still alive or knowing something and trying to cover it up. It`s just a bizarre case, and this is a tough nut to crack for law enforcement.

LALAMA: Absolutely. Why don`t we go to one of the pieces of sound from George and Cindy.


CINDY ANTHONY: George and I don`t believe that Caylee`s in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy and George wholeheartedly believe their granddaughter is still alive and their daughter is innocent.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s a lot more to this story than you guys could ever, ever imagine, and it`s all going to come out.


LALAMA: There`s a lot more to the story. Anne Bremner, you know, if you know a lot and you could help the case, why not `fess up and tell us what you know?

BREMNER: Well, sure. But I guess they`re trying to say, it`s like the kind of thing where you try the case, you`ve got the jury in the box, and you say, You know what? Caylee Anthony is going to come in right behind that door right now, and all the jurors look. That`s reasonable doubt. You know, the fact is, she could be alive. And I guess they`re trying to put that specter out there.

LALAMA: That sounds like a movie to me.

BREMNER: That was a movie.

LALAMA: Yes, I think it was, too. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, again, you know, the family is saying that the reason -- she puts it this way. She would go to her grave, she`ll spend the rest of her life in prison because she`s not going to tell what`s going on because it could hurt her child. Could you explain the logic to me?

ROGERS: Well, there is no logic. And I`ve got to tell you, just seeing what I just saw really causes me to believe that there is something they`re not telling us. And you answered -- you asked the right question. If you`ve got all this information, give it to the police and let`s be done with it.

LALAMA: Yes. I mean, to me, I don`t know, I`m just wondering, Hugo Rodriguez, would you just tell the parents please just don`t say anything?

RODRIGUEZ: I would keep everyone quiet, from my client -- as her counsel, I would keep quiet. There`s no reason, there`s no benefit to have any press releases, to say anything. They`re not helping her at all.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, could it be a strategy that if they could just convince one potential member of the jury, because they`re these caring -- I`m not saying they aren`t caring, by the way. Let`s just make that sure -- certain. But you know, this could be some sort of a PR strategy.

PADILLA: It`s Cindy Anthony`s way of getting through life. If she is telling the truth, then Special Agent Nick Savage (ph) and the whole FBI, the government is wasting a lot of money on them. I`m old-fashioned. The FBI is not lying. Cindy Anthony is flat-out lying. She knows she`s lying and has got no strategy about the jury or anything like that. She will just lie to convince people that she is right and everybody else is wrong, including the whole FBI structure.

LALAMA: Let`s hear what`s on the minds of our callers. Maureen in Pennsylvania. Hello, Maureen.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Does anyone know where Casey`s brother was the day she was seen coming out of the woods with the bag with the shovel in it? Could he have been her look-out?

LALAMA: Nikki Pierce, what do you know about that?

PIERCE: We don`t have any information on that. As far as I know, none of the members of the family are being investigated as being an active part of whatever may have happened to Caylee.

LALAMA: And Mark Williams, we know her brother is just sort of out of picture. What`s up with him? Lee, I believe his name is.

WILLIAMS: Lee Anthony and Cindy Anthony at one time, right after Caylee went missing, instead of looking for the little girl, they were trying to figure out where they were going to do their PR blitz at, what television network they were going to be at and what television station that they were going to be on. He has kept a very low profile the past six or seven weeks or so. We have not seen him, nor his black Mustang cruising around Orlando at all. So who knows whatever happened to him.

LALAMA: Yes. He`s certainly not making public statements about his sister, at this point.

To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a missing 14-year-old Illinois girl, Simone Boyd, last seen October 20 in the Romeoville area near Chicago. Police reportedly investigating a connection to an Internet predator -- Boyd, 4-11, 130 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. If you have any information, please call the Romeoville police, 815-886-7219.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey was indicted on first degree murder charges based largely on forensic evidence recovered from her car.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no smoking (ph) down here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Air samples and hair samples in the reports that Casey`s lawyer and her parents say are inconclusive at best.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m angry, and for them to pull that and this is all they`ve got? This is ridiculous.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, there`s been 4,000 tips coming in to try to solve this case. And I want to go to Gale St. John, who`s a psychic and host of "The Bodyhunter." And you have tried to search for Caylee Anthony. You know, a lot of people don`t put a lot of stock in psychics. You would, I`m sure, counter that argument with what?

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Oh, I`m not out here to -- you know, to make people accept, you know, a psychic. Basically, we`re out here and we did what others have done. We`ve gone out. We`ve searched. We still have searches going on. As a matter of fact, there`s a search going on tomorrow with some of our volunteers. You know, so if people want to join, they can go and join up the search.

LALAMA: What have you been able to glean in your psychic investigation?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, a lot of things that we saw are, you know, things that are common when you get to Florida. So what we`ve done is we`ve taken tips, as well, of our own and others, and we`ve investigated all these tips that have come in because we have our own tip line. And I think just like the police, we have gotten thousands of tips.

LALAMA: Well, I wish you the very best, and the fact that you`re involved is a big thing.

And you know, I have to switch gears really quickly because I`ve just got such little time left in this block. The movies now that we`re finding out that Casey rented with her boyfriend -- "Untraceable," about a serial killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her child. I`ve got to ask, Lieutenant Steven Rogers, as law enforcement person, does that mean anything to you?

ROGERS: Oh, it sure does.

LALAMA: Really?

ROGERS: Oh, yes. Police officers are going to get those movies. They`re going to look at those movies very closely and they might find a potential plot and motive that she may have carried out through those movies.

LALAMA: Wow! Hugo Rodriguez, what do you think about that?

RODRIGUEZ: Hey, I`m going Blockbuster tonight and ordering five romantic movies, and hopefully, some people will insinuate what I do after that.

LALAMA: Oh, Patricia Saunders, give me a psychology to this, if, in fact, she -- well, give me a psychology.

SAUNDERS: Well, if it was before, then there`s some possibility in what these guys are saying. But if it was after the fact, then it does suggest that this is a person who does not experience normal human emotions or attachments because the last thing you want to see after you lose your baby is a story about murder.

LALAMA: Oh, wow. When we come back, tragedy for "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. A big break in the case. Police confirm they do indeed have the murder weapon.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Every gun leaves distinctive marks as it goes through the barrel.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago police are confirming now that the gun found in that ally near an abandoned white SUV was indeed used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was a .45 caliber handgun that was recovered near the place where the missing car and the boy`s body were found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago authorities are saying Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s nephew was probably shot in the SUV where his body was found. Investigators believe Julian King was alive when he left the house where his uncle and grandmother were shot dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son`s alibi was with one of his girls. If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.


PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And that`s a big break in the case.

Let`s go right to Natalie Thomas, deputy news editor, "US Weekly" magazine. Tell us more.

NATALIE THOMAS, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, US WEEKLY: We do now, as you saw in the intro, that police did confirm that they found -- they discovered that the murder weapon was used in the case -- I`m sorry. The murder weapon was used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s family, the gun that was found on Wednesday.

LALAMA: Wow, that`s amazing.

Kathy Chaney, reporter for "Chicago Defender," it`s a lucky break, but it doesn`t mean it belongs to the person of interest, does it?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: Not, exactly. It does not. The police spokeswoman said that it has been confirmed as the gun, the .45 that was used to kill all three. However, they have not, you know, found out who the gun belongs to, or should I say who killed all three family members.

That has not been determined yet.

LALAMA: And my understanding, am I right, Natalie, that it was traced -- the owner was in Michigan. He said it was stolen. Do we know anything more about that?

THOMAS: We do know that -- just as you said, the owner reported it missing. He lives in Michigan. We do not know how it got from Michigan to Chicago.

LALAMA: Yes, such is the way with guns used in the commission of crimes, correct, Detective Rogers?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, yes. They`ll try their best to find out how it got to Chicago. But they`ll try to lift fingerprints, perhaps some DNA. This is a tough one.

LALAMA: Lawrence Kobilinsky, what do they want from that gun and how is it is going to help or hurt the case?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the gun is the central piece here, linking the three bodies, the two crime scenes, and I think we have to stand by for DNA analysis.

While you can`t get fingerprints off a gun, you usually can get DNA, either a full profile or a partial profile. That`s the evidence that will link the suspect to the crime scenes and the bodies.

Also, back spatter, if it`s present in the muzzle, that will be swabbed and DNA tested, as well. Stand by for those results.

LALAMA: Let`s hear from the callers. Cindy in Pennsylvania, good evening, Cindy.


LALAMA: Hi, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve read in the "Chicago Tribune" where Jennifer Hudson`s brother was living with the mother because he was recovering from a gunshot wound that he received in a (INAUDIBLE).

Do you know if the cops are following any leads on the brother?

LALAMA: Cathy Chaney, who is in Chicago, what do you know about the brother?

CHANEY: The brother, he has had some trouble, some criminal troubles in the past, and right now the police won`t confirm if they`re looking at leads of whether he may have had some type of linkage to this or not. Police will just not confirm that at all.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, they may know or may have the murder weapon, but that doesn`t mean they got the murder, correct?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct. And, you know, when we have a person of interest in this case right now, we don`t have him being called a suspect.

LALAMA: Right.

BREMNER: And interestingly in this case, we hear from Julia, Jennifer`s sister, very little about our person of interest being guilty. And you have to think about, you know, blood is thicker than water. If she thought so, did he kill her mother, her brother and her son, she`d be saying a lot more.

LALAMA: Hugo Rodriguez, you know, he apparently, according to cops, stopped cooperating and refused to take a lie detector test.

Now, in your mind, that`s perfectly OK. But in other people`s minds, it`s like, hey, why not?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: I haven`t -- no one has verified for me that the authorities have asked him to take a polygraph exam. Because to do that would really complicate issues. They -- the police would have to make great concessions to ask somebody to do that. OK?

And I haven`t seen that yet. There is no benefit to it. None at all. He`s been charged or he hasn`t been charged. He is being held on a positive role violation. They have no evidence to link him to this crime.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, I`m really moved by -- I don`t know if moved is the right term, but affected by the violence of this act. The extreme violence. What does it say to you? I mean a gunshot through the door, the guy, whoever it was, is mad before he even got in the door, he or she, whomever.

What does it say to you about the level of violence, taking a 7-year-old child, shooting a 7-year-old child in the head for heaven`s sakes.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is a savage kind of violence that speaks to people who may well be sociopathic, real criminals. Could be gang-related, too. Maybe people who used to live with this primitive level of violence and abuse.

LALAMA: Souleo, I hope I am pronouncing that correctly, entertainment journalist, you interviewed Jennifer Hudson just, what, about a month ago?


LALAMA: You know, she -- I can`t even imagine what sort of hell she must be in right now. Tell us a little bit about her. What kind of perspective you got from spending time with her?

SOULEO: It was amazing to talk with Jennifer, and my condolences go out to the family. She was someone who was very humble, very down to earth. She came across as just very warm, very giving. Magnetic personality, and someone who cares deeply for her family. So we can only imagine the pain she is experiencing now.

LALAMA: Did she talk about her family with you?

SOULEO: Yes. Yes, she did. She spoke lovingly of her mom and of her brother and sister. About her mom, she said that Jennifer loves to draw, that`s one of other private passions, and she said that her mother inspired her to draw, and she said that her mom said, you know, anything that her mom said that she could do, she ended up doing it, from acting and winning the Oscar to all these successes she has now.

So her mother inspired her and was -- and really kept her grounded and gave her the confidence to succeed, as we are witnessing today.

LALAMA: Have you heard anything about what kind of emotional state she may be in?

SOULEO: No. With something like this, we can only imagine the kind of emotional state. Of course, she is traumatized and in shock and in pain. Jennifer loves her family, so, so much. And I -- you know, I just can`t imagine what she must be going through. Yes.

LALAMA: Unbelievable. Another caller, Tiqua in California. Hello, Tiqua.


LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I read that Jason, also along with the gunshot wounds, he suffered defensive wounds. And I was wondering if, William, did he have a swollen -- swollen knuckles or, you know, fighting marks on his body?

LALAMA: Natalie Thomas, what do you -- I thought the defensive wound was with Darnell. Am I wrong about that?

THOMAS: No, I believe you`re correct about that.


THOMAS: I don`t -- I don`t know. To our knowledge, we`re not sure about wounds on William Balfour`s knuckles. We do know that about a month prior he had gotten into an altercation with Jason, and James Patton who is coincidently Jennifer Hudson`s ex broke it up and beat him up.

William Balfour then became enraged, threatening that he would come back Julia Hudson and the rest of the family.


Detective Rogers, you know, I don`t want to pour gasoline on the flames of fear here. But whoever this person is or person or people who are responsible, clearly, I mean, if there`s some sort of revenge act or extreme anger act, exacted on an entire family. Should Jennifer Hudson be concerned?

ROGERS: Well, this case would cause me as an investigator to lean away from any gang connection to someone close to the family. That poor 7-year- old boy who was shot and killed.


ROGERS: . he may have been able to identify the killer.

LALAMA: Right.

ROGERS: And that`s why he was executed. So, yes, she should be concerned.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, I keep thinking, and I try not to think about, what kind of terror it must have been for that little boy. You know, I don`t know, just try to help us through this.

SAUNDERS: Well, you know, Pat, the mind, the brain has ways of protecting us that only come out in extreme situations. It could be that he witnessed his mother and uncle being murdered and he was so numb and in so traumatized, he was in an altered state and may not have been that aware of the imminent danger that he was -- in.

LALAMA: And it`s very important to talk about the time of death there, Lawrence Kobilinsky, correct? You know, when he died is critical.

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s true, Pat. The longer the post-mortem interval, the more difficult it gets to pinpoint the time of death. The range is very large. There are methods of, you know, estimating time of death, body temperature, potassium in the eye.

So I`m sure they have some notion of when death took place. But it gets a little complicated sometimes.

LALAMA: Very, very quickly, Detective Rogers, you know, the time of death on that little boy also could point to an assailant or rule out an assailant.

ROGERS: True, it sure could. And like I said, it would cause me to point toward someone close to the family, who he, that young child, could identify.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve still got a lot more to do. There is still a lot more forensic examinations to do. Right now, we`re extraordinarily pleased and satisfied that the weapon has been identified as the weapon that was used in the homicides, and there`s still more work to do, which we are doing at this time.





UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators are looking for the mechanical equivalent of a fingerprint. It`s marked on a bullet each time a gun is fired. The lines are called striations and they allow forensic experts in a lab to connect a weapon with bullets found in a victim.

A police recruit scouring a field found the gun yesterday. It was less than a block from where 7-year-old Julian King`s body was discovered in a white Chevy Suburban stolen from the Hudson family home.

The weapon itself is a .45 caliber semi automatic handgun. That`s the same caliber used to commit the murders of Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign. It gives us additional clues, and we`re going to keep running them down. Like I mentioned before, I`m extremely confident that this case will be solved.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.

Kathy Chaney, where is William Balfour, and what happens next?

CHANEY: Well, William Balfour is still in the custody of the Illinois Department of Corrections, being held on that parole violation, and he has a parole status hearing on November 10th to determine whether or not he did violate his parole or not.

LALAMA: OK. Natalie Thomas from "US Weekly," you know, there is talk that he was stopped in June with crack cocaine in his car, and maybe he didn`t go to anger management. What`s up with this guy?

THOMAS: He definitely has a criminal past. He, you know -- as we know, he spent seven years in prison when he was -- beginning when he was only 17 years old for attempted murder, among a list of other things. So he definitely has a shady past and has violated his parole since he has been out. And is not -- you know, a decent character.

LALAMA: Well, they`ll figure out, I guess, at the hearing whether he has violated his parole for any variety of reasons.

And, you know, Hugo Rodriguez, everyone says, oh, rush to judgment, rush to judgment, you don`t know, there`s all kinds of things going on in that neighborhood, why are you pointing to him.

But it seems to me, and I don`t know, but, I mean, he has had some friction with the family. And right now, who else would have a motive?

RODRIGUEZ: You know, I don`t know who would have a motive. But we had a similar situation here in South Florida, unfortunately, where a famous football player, Sean Taylor, was shot in his home. And it turned out to be that someone not immediately related, but who knew of them, and it was a robbery attempt that no one figured out until several days later.

I don`t know. He is a person of interest. They`ll probably violate him for violating his parole, for whatever those charges are, but until they have some concrete evidence, they`re not about to charge him with the homicides in this case.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, is being a person of interest in a case enough to get you back in the pokey?

BREMNER: No, absolutely not. They`re just going to hold him on the parole violation. I was thinking, you know, the most famous case of a family murdered together was Truman Capote`s in cold blood.

LALAMA: Right. Right. Right.

BREMNER: You know, and so, of course, you just -- you don`t know. And right now they`re just holding him on parole violations and right now he`s just a person of interest.

LALAMA: Entertainment journalist, Souleo, you know, what -- what should then Jennifer do next? I know she`s staying out of the spotlight. Do you think that`s wise for her?

SOULEO: I think that`s very wise. As an artist, you have to live your life and you have to be true to yourself. And right now, Jennifer, she`s not in a condition to be out there promoting her film or her music and, you know, her fans wouldn`t think that it would be respectful, anyway.

So, of course, she needs to take care of herself, keep herself grounded, remember her mother`s legacy, which was, you know, confidence, support, wisdom. Remember all those great things that her family gave her, and hold on to that, because that is really the only thing that`s going to get her through this terrible, terrible tragedy.

LALAMA: She stayed in constant contact with her family, correct?

SOULEO: Oh, yes, yes, constant contact. And there is actually a funny story. Her mom actually did not want people to know that Jennifer Hudson was her daughter, that they were related, because she liked her privacy.

And she didn`t want people to be too involved, in their family business, and things of that nature. But, yes, she stayed in constant contact with her family, would visit her brother and sister, and when she would go there, you know, they would tell her, oh, my god, Jennifer, what are you wearing, why do you have this on?

So they were just honest and loving with one another. And so that`s her rock. That`s her support system. And now that it`s gone, it`s going to be tough for her.

LALAMA: Here`s something we were debating in the newsroom, everybody. Apparently Julia, who is the mother of Julian, and, of course, you know the rest of the story. On her MySpace page, she still has her ex, William Balfour, as one of her top 10 friends. Forgive me for not understanding how this thing works, MySpace.

But, Patricia Saunders, you know, why would he still be on there? I`m not saying he`s committed the murders, but they`re estranged and having all kinds of problems, her wages have been garnished because of nonpayment on his part. Why would he still be there?

SAUNDERS: Well, because she still loves him. Clearly, there`s a deep attachment between these two, although it may be highly conflictual(ph) and ambivalent, I don`t think we can make presumptions about what their relationship is really like.

She also said on MySpace that she`s numb. So she`s no condition to be processing much kind of thinking at all.

LALAMA: Do you think, perhaps, Souleo, since you know the family, very quickly, you know, she just may in some sort of grief and denial?

SOULEO: I think so. I think grief and denial, just unsure of how the events are going to play out. And you know, the message that she wrote was very respectable. And you get the sense that she is really going through a lot of pain.

LALAMA: Thank you.

Tonight, "CNN HEROES."


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I dropped out of high school when I was 15 years old. I had put education on the back burner. I didn`t have to go back and get my GED. But it was something I really needed to complete me as a person.

My manager called a local high school, and they sent us to Bernadine.

And name is Gretchen Wilson and my hero helps people finish their education.


When I began working in adult ed, I had no earthly idea that there was millions of people without a high school diploma or a GED. But you know, every single person who I helped helps with the big problems.

What are you going to do after you get your GED?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pediatrics nursing.

NELSON: So you`re going to be a great success, aren`t you?


NELSON: We have a GED program for people 17 to 75. We work with the individual wherever they are to take them where they need to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernadine promised me that I`d be able to stand in that line and be proud of myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gretchen Frances Wilson.

NELSON: As long as they`re at sixth grade level, we can make that work.

Education is a passion for me because I know that I`m making a difference in people`s lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s bound and determined to put that sense of pride back into these people. Not only is it respectable, it`s admirable.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at



LALAMA: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care who you are. Just let my baby go. Please. He`s 7. Let my son go. Please. That`s all I ask.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother now have to come to grips with the murder of a child, 7-year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV found dead.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: King`s estranged step-father William Balfour remains a person of interest and in another development has reportedly refused to take a polygraph test and is not cooperating with investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: William was not raised to disrespect no one. You put my son`s face on worldwide news like he`s Attila the Hun.

GRACE: Hey, it`s not our fault he was arrested for attempted murder, having a record dating back to when he was around 12 or 13 years old and allegedly a member of the Gang Disciples.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony has been officially arraigned on murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony had entered a written plea of not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s charged with first-degree murder in her daughter`s disappearance, even though the little girl was never been found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning new photos released today show tot mom Casey Anthony renting a movie about a kidnapper and killer the same day police believe her daughter, Caylee, was murdered.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. There they are all snugged up at Blockbuster.


LALAMA: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Brian Bolander, 26, from Hemet, California on a fourth tour of duty. Lost his life six weeks before his wedding. Highly decorated. He loved being a ranger, fishing and sports. He also served in Kosovo.

He leaves behind parents Grace and Tony, fiancee Sandra and 4-year-old son Tyler.

Bryan Bolander, an American hero.

Thank you to all of our guest and to you at home for being with us.

Nancy, thanks for letting me sit in. Have fun with the kids tonight on Halloween.

We`ll see you tomorrow night. That`s at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. And until then, have a great evening and a spooky Halloween.