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Victim`s Own Gun Reportedly Used in Hudson Murders

Aired November 3, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead. Cause of death, multiple gunshot wounds to a 7-year-old.
Tonight, we can confirm the murder weapon is a P220 Sig-Sauer semi- automatic. It`s a .45-caliber handgun, the .45 found discarded in a vacant lot just around the corner from where little Julian discovered dead, and is the same weapon used in the Hudson family murders.

Bombshell tonight. Was the victim`s own gun used to murder him and his family? Was that gun stolen from the victim months ago? Investigators combing grainy surveillance video and cell phone records in the search for leads. As we go to air, Hudson`s brother-in-law, William Balfour, on parole for a `99 attempted murder, picked up for questioning. He was arrested for cocaine just this past June, slipped through the cracks, no jail time, walking free at the time Hudson`s family gunned down. Did one of his girlfriends blow his alibi, and is he still refusing a polygraph? Is he poised to walk free again?

In the last hours, a private funeral service for the Hudson family. Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American Dreamgirl -- American nightmare.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police reportedly investigating whether the gun used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew belonged to her murdered brother, Jason. Forensic testing determined the .45- caliber pistol recovered last week by police was the weapon used in the triple murder. And Hudson`s brother allegedly owned an identical one he thought was stolen from his home months ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gun is the central piece here linking the three bodies, the two crime scenes.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends. If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugar coat it and say my son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.


GRACE: Yes, right. Tell it to police, lady.

And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Investigators narrow down the timeline and pinpoint key search areas to find Caylee. We learn more about mom Casey`s movements in the critical days just after Caylee last seen alive. A massive search set to commence by land, by air, by water. Tonight, where is Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To track Casey Anthony, we followed her constant companion, her cell phone Monday, June 16, the day Casey`s father, George Anthony, swears his daughter and granddaughter left the house at 10 minutes before 1:00 in the afternoon. Cell phone records show they did not go far. She pings this tower near Tony Lazzaro`s apartment at 5:57 that afternoon. Two hours later, they`re arm in arm at a Blockbuster, Caylee nowhere in sight.

Tuesday, June 17, at 5:20 that afternoon, her cell pings a tower near Blanchard Park. Something strange happened next. Casey`s cell phone goes silent -- no text messages, no calls for three hours, from 5:23 to 8:23 PM.

Caylee hadn`t been seen alive for about a day-and-a-half. Wednesday, June 18, the day her parents`s neighbor would later say she borrowed a shovel and in what a neighbor said was an unusual move, backed her car into the family garage.


GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. Bombshell tonight. We confirm the murder weapon is a P220 Sig-Sauer semi-automatic .45-caliber handgun. It was the victim`s own gun. Was it used to execute the Hudson family?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The murder weapon used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew reportedly belonged to Hudson`s brother, Jason. Jason reportedly owned a gun identical to the .45-caliber pistol used in the murders, a gun he thought was stolen from his home a few months ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re extraordinarily pleased and satisfied that the weapon has been identified as the weapon that was used in the homicides.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weapon itself is a .45-caliber semi- automatic handgun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The owner reported it missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just still trying to figure out whether the gun could be linked to the person of interest. That person is William Balfour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do know that about a month prior, he had gotten into an altercation with Jason. James Paton (ph), who is coincidentally Jennifer Hudson`s ex, broke it up and beat him up. William Balfour then became enraged, threatening that he would come back and kill Julia Hudson and the rest of the family. He definitely has a shady past.

BALFOUR: He has never been the type of kid that you could say was a violent type. William was not raised to disrespect no one. Out of no means did my son do this.


GRACE: Straight out to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." Michelle, what can you tell me about this weapon?

MICHELLE SIGONA, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, this weapon, Nancy -- there are a couple reports out there. The first report, as you just mentioned, that the weapon did, in fact, belong to Jason Hudson. That`s something that just came out today.

But as of a couple of days ago, there were reports that the murder weapon was, in fact, stolen from a home in Michigan and then somehow made its way to Illinois. But either way, police are not confirming who this murder weapon, in fact, does belong to, if it was Jennifer Hudson`s brother, if, in fact, it was a mysterious person in Michigan.

But at this point, they do know it was found just about a block away from where her nephew was murdered. And there were extra bullets inside of that gun, Nancy, which, in fact, do match the shell casings at the murder scene. So this is how police are able to link this murder weapon...

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa! Michelle Sigona, are you telling me that they forensically match or they`re just the same type and brand?

SIGONA: Well, at this point, from what police have told us, Nancy, is that the bullets inside of the gun do, in fact, match the shell casings at the scene. And now, how they have made that...



SIGONA: ... they made that assumption...

GRACE: You`re saying -- you`re saying -- OK, I want to go to Michael Sapraicone, former NYPD, president of Squad Security, Inc. Michael, saying that the bullet inside the gun matches the casing, that`s not a positive match-up. That`s just saying it`s the same caliber.

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Right, Nancy. That`s all it`s saying, is that it`s the same caliber bullet. Forensically, you need to match the swirls on that casing with the round.

GRACE: A used bullet. A used bullet.


GRACE: That`s what you`ve got to match up. What can you tell me about a P220 Sig-Sauer semi-automatic? I know it`s the Cadillac of .45s. Speaking of .45s, you know, a lot of cops, a lot of military turning their backs now on 9-millimeter weapons in favor of the .45. Why? The stopping power? You can stop somebody with one bullet from a .45 very often much quicker than you can from a 9-millimeter. It is German made. What can you tell me about the weapon, Michael Sapraicone?

SAPRAICONE: Well, it`s a heavy-duty gun. It`s used -- like you say, a lot of law enforcement is turning to it now, rather than using the 9s and the Glocks that we were using back 10 years ago. It`s a killer`s gun. It`s an assassin`s gun. It`s often used by drug dealers and criminals.

GRACE: Now, why do you say it`s a doper gun? A lot of guns have reputations. For instance, a .22 is a hooker`s gun. Why do you say a .45 is a doper`s gun?

SAPRAICONE: Well, I just -- through my experience. A lot of times, we`ve found that type of weapon, that high-caliber weapon, is used by drug gangs.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Regina in Michigan. Hi, Regina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, let me tell you, my sister and I don`t miss your show. We turn the phone off and we watch you seven days a week. We love you.

GRACE: Regina, thank you. Thank you very much for watching and for calling in. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, they say that they put up a struggle with whoever murdered them. Was there any DNA evidence under their nails or anything?

GRACE: To Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." Any DNA as of yet?

SIGONA: That`s a great question, Nancy. And this is what investigators have said, is that, you know, this is a pretty extensive crime scene. There were obviously -- at least, we do know for sure, two bodies murdered there. And -- you know, and the killer, in fact, did leave some sort of evidence behind, and that`s what they`ve been collecting and that`s what they`ve been processing. And that`s what they`re waiting for. And they`re really lining their ducks up at this point. And they`re not really commenting. They`re keeping, you know, a very tight lip about, you know, the kind of evidence that they have and who they`re going after. And that`s why they`re only naming Balfour as a person of interest at this point. They have not charged him with any crimes and...

GRACE: Michelle...

SIGONA: ... (INAUDIBLE) the grand jury.

GRACE: With us, Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." Did you say the killer left blind some evidence?

SIGONA: Well, what investigators say is that this is a very big crime scene, as you can only imagine. There were a couple of people -- at least a couple of people murdered there, we do know for sure, and that left behind at the crime scene -- you know, whether it be the killer`s DNA or the killers` -- we don`t know exactly how many people were involved in this at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, a veteran trial attorney, former prosecutor with the feds, now defense attorney, Doug Burns. Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney joining me out of Washington D.C., also no stranger to a courtroom.

Doug Burns, I can tell you this much. If they had a fingerprint match-up to William Balfour, who is a person of interest, he`d be charged right now.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I totally agree with you. And I also agree with what`s been said earlier, which is that the police are playing it very close to the vest because they want to make sure that if people call in with tips or information, Nancy, they`re not gleaning it from what they`ve released. And that`s a very common approach by law enforcement.

GRACE: And also, to Christopher Amolsch -- you know, I hate to give you your argument on a silver platter, Amolsch, but if this guy had been rightfully in the home, if he had been there to see the sister, Julia, or for any other reason, what good are his fingerprints unless they`re found on the murder weapon?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Well, even if they`re found on the murder weapon, the fingerprints aren`t going to do you any good because they don`t actually tell you when the fingerprints were there.

GRACE: Uh-uh-uh!

AMOLSCH: So they don`t really do you any good.

GRACE: On a discarded weapon beside the little boy`s body? You know, save it! I`m talking about fingerprints at the scene, Amolsch, don`t really mean anything.


BALFOUR: He went on with his life, do you understand? He went on with his life. You all are painting him, portraying my son as being the worst scum of the earth.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends and family are paying their final respects to Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew today. The funeral services for 57-year-old Darnell Hudson Donerson, 28-year-old Jason Hudson, and the 7-year-old boy, Julian King, are all private. Mourners gathered at the singer`s childhood church yesterday for both a private and public memorial service. People waited in a long line to pay their final respect and leave condolence cards.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s (INAUDIBLE) right now, you know, because she`s being strong for the rest of the family, as well as for herself. So she`s handling it as best she can.

GRACE: You`re asking me a lot of questions that nobody knows the answer to.

BALFOUR: But this is what everybody...

GRACE: No~! No, no, no, no~! Not everybody. That has not been said on this show. So ma`am, you need to get your facts straight because that has not been said on this show.

BALFOUR: I didn`t say it was. I`m not saying you did on this...

GRACE: You said everybody. I`m not everybody.

BALFOUR: Well, I`m just in general saying to the public.

GRACE: OK. Yes, well, let`s just get that straight.


GRACE: Straight back out to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." We can confirm a ballistics match-up between the gun and the bullets. That is, in fact, the murder weapon. It`s a .45-caliber P220 Sig-Sauer semi-automatic. It is German made, often called the Cadillac of .45s.

Michelle, what can you tell me about Balfour, the brother-in-law of Jennifer Hudson, former brother-in-law, car being in the neighborhood of the murders, the morning of the murders around 7:00 AM?

SIGONA: Yes, there are other reports out there, Nancy, that do say that there`s some surveillance tape out there that does, in fact, show his car. Now, what police -- I asked that question to them earlier today. I said, you know, Were you able to see anything on the surveillance? You know, Was there any clear pictures of anyone, whether it was him or whether it was someone else driving the vehicle, a tag number, things like that? They will not go on the record. They will not confirm any of that information.

GRACE: To Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, I understand Balfour`s car was later found abandoned at Robeson (ph) High School, which is a little less than a mile from the Hudson family home. True or false?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": That`s true. That`s true. And surveillance cameras do show that that car was there, and as Michelle said, that someone was seen going in or out of it. But the images are not clear, and Chicago police said that they will not release the images from the video to show that.

GRACE: Do we know if, when the person got out, he went into another vehicle, or did he walk away?

CHANEY: Pretty much just walked away. Pretty much just walked away from -- based on what police are telling us, and they won`t tell us much more than that.

GRACE: OK. Kathy, do you know what time the vehicle was abandoned at Robeson High School?

CHANEY: People are saying, and the police are saying, if the time is correct on the video, it was around -- between noon and 12:30 that day.

GRACE: Between noon and 12:30.

CHANEY: If the time is correct. Yes.

GRACE: All right. And back to you, Michael Sapraicone. Why wouldn`t the time stamp be correct?

SAPRAICONE: Nancy, you have to keep in mind, I think this is a high school camera. We don`t know if it`s digital. We don`t know if it`s analog. A lot of times, these schools don`t keep up on their cameras. It`s not a law enforcement camera. The times change. The dates sometimes are wrong. These are all things we have to look at.

GRACE: OK. I want to go to James Gannalo, forensic firearms examiner with the Stria Consulting Group. James, thanks for being with us. What more can you tell me about a .45 P220 semi-automatic? Explain semi- automatic.

JAMES GANNALO, FORENSIC FIREARMS EXAMINER: Semi-automatic means that you have to squeeze the trigger every time you want to fire that weapon, and the weapon automatically unloads and reloads itself every time it`s fired.

GRACE: And what is the benefit to a semi-automatic versus an automatic?

GANNALO: Well, an automatic weapon is more of a military type of weapon. A semi-automatic works in the same way, it`s just that it has a cut-off where you have to squeeze the trigger every time you want to fire it. Therefore, you can control the weapon better.

GRACE: How much is a Sig-Sauer, about a thousand bucks?

GANNALO: It`s between $800 and $900 on the Internet, but a thousand probably isn`t out of the ordinary.

GRACE: And how much is it at a pawn shop?

GANNALO: That would depend on the pawn shop and how much the person wants it.

GRACE: Ballpark?

GANNALO: I would say it`d probably be a little bit less than that, probably a used one, $600, $700.

GRACE: Have you ever analyzed a .45 or ballistics to a .45?

GANNALO: Yes, I have.

GRACE: And how do you compare a Sig-Sauer to others?

GANNALO: Sig-Sauer`s a quality weapon, well made, manufactured with German technology, a very good weapon.

GRACE: I would say it`s the high end of .45s. Do you agree?

GANNALO: I agree.

GRACE: We`re taking your calls. To Alexa in Texas. Hi, Alexa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if there were any drugs found in the Hudson home.

GRACE: Interesting. To Kathy Chaney, "Chicago Defender" reporter. What do we know?

CHANEY: Police will not reveal what was found in the home. They will continue to say it`s just an ongoing investigation and that they are looking at everything. But again, they will not confirm.

GRACE: To Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." Michelle, can you tell me if the victim was walking with a cane at the time of the shooting?

SIGONA: No, I cannot tell you if the victim was walking with a cane at the time of the shooting. But you know, again, what investigators are doing at this point, Nancy, is really focusing on the timeline and really trying to put pieces like that together, and you know, compile this for the grand jury.

GRACE: To Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Do you know whether one of the victims -- Jason Hudson specifically -- walked with a cane?

CHANEY: Yes. In several pictures with his friends and several videos, he was seen walking with a cane, yes, because I believe he had some type of injury to his leg. So yes, he was walking with a cane, as Michelle said.

GRACE: Would that injury be a gunshot wound?

CHANEY: Reports are saying that it was from a gunshot wound.

GRACE: And do reports also say he refused to go to the hospital? This is the victim, Jason Hudson, age 29. Is it true he did not go to the hospital when he was shot in the leg? This was about a year ago?

CHANEY: Sources did say that, but police won`t confirm that. But that is what our sources are saying, yes.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. What do you make of what may or may not have been found at the crime scene, and them not putting a charge on Balfour yet? Don`t you think if they found fingerprints or DNA, you`d get DNA in three days or less, Koby.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I think that`s a good point, Nancy. But the key is not that crime scene, but the key is DNA on the gun. What they will do is swab the grip, swab the trigger, trigger guard, barrel. They`re going to go through the magazine, the ammunition in the magazine. If they get a partial or a full profile, that will link the shooter directly to the gun. The gun is already ballistically linked to the crime scenes and the victims.

GRACE: Koby, Koby, you and I both know that so often, the bullets, once they travel through bone, tissue and so forth in the human body, you`re not going to get a print off of a bullet.

KOBILINSKY: No, you probably won`t.

GRACE: They`re so mangled.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, you`ll either get them deformed or fragmented. But what`s more important are the shell casings. Four different kinds of distinguishing unique marks are on those shell casings, linking them to the gun.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just touched my heart, you know, to see a family, you know, just torn apart, you know, a mother and a brother, and you know, a nephew. That`s -- that hurts. That hurts. It`s close to home. It hits close to home because it can happen to anybody.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A heart-breaking day for actress Jennifer Hudson. She attended the funeral of her mother, brother and nephew today. The three were killed last month. Hundreds of mourners began lining up outside of a church in Chicago this morning to attend the invitation-only service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really hurts. I never thought this could happen to someone that you knew.


GRACE: Straight out to Dr. Joseph Deltito. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. He is a professor of psychiatry. Dr. Deltito, it`s great to see you again.


GRACE: The thinking of discarding the weapon so close to the scene -- in this case, the scene of the little boy`s body. I`ve seen it many, many times. What`s the thinking?

DELTITO: Thinking is to get rid of the gun quickly. You know, "Drop the gun, take the cannoli." It`s part of the pop culture. People aren`t necessarily thinking things through, just fright or flight sometimes after someone has gone through tremendous emotion.

GRACE: But Dr. Deltito, they know that the area around the discovery of the body is going to be searched thoroughly.

DELTITO: Well, you`re thinking that someone is thinking linearly and clearly at the time. You don`t know if his mood is altered by drugs or rage or whatever and somehow clouded.



GRACE: Was he still romantically involved with the sister, Julia?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they were. Julia`s birthday was just last week. And she had invited my son to have a slice of cake with her.

People don`t understand what`s going on. My son loved her, she loved him. Julia and William were separated, but they were still together.

DIANA DEGARMO, AMERICAN IDOL FINALIST, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: She was so close to her mother. I mean, as close as a mother and daughter could be. She did everything for her mother. Her mother and her brother and her sister, her family, was her whole world.

That`s what she did everything for. And to lose everyone, almost everyone, and a child, you know, in one weekend, it`s just -- it`s an unbelievable and unthinkable thing.


GRACE: Was the victim`s own handgun used to murder him and his family? Was that gun actually stolen several are months ago?

We are taking your calls live. Out to Charlene in Michigan. Hi, Charlene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, because there was so many people who came out and speaking for Balfour when this first happened and giving alibis, has any of their cell phone records or his cell phone records been pulled up to see if, you know, what kind of activity was on there?

GRACE: To Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted," I`m sure that`s one of the first things the cops did.

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: You`re right, Nancy. That`s exactly correct. Investigators, I`m sure, at this point are definitely looking at his cell phone records, his alibis.

You know you had Balfour`s mom on your show the other night and she states that he was with a girlfriend at the time. So they`re really working to, you know, verify a lot of this information at this point.

GRACE: But it`s also our information, Michelle Sigona, that the girlfriend blew the alibi.

SIGONA: Yes, there is that information, as well. You know -- so a lot of times in these investigations, as you know, and as things come up, whether it`s with cell phones and girlfriends and alibis and things like that, they have to go over and check and double-check and triple check and start verifying stories and moving forward in a positive direction at this point. I mean that`s all that they can do.

GRACE: To Kathy Chaney with "Chicago Defender," William Balfour`s mother says he is set to walk free on Monday. What do you know?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: Well, actually I know that there is a parole violation hearing that`s set for November 10th, so the likelihood of the Illinois Department of Corrections letting him out before then is slim to none.

GRACE: Pretty slim.

To Doug Burns and Christopher Amolsch, our attorneys joining us tonight. Let`s unleash the lawyers.

To Doug Burns, I find it highly unusual that he would be picked up on a parole violation for simply not reporting to a parole officer.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, but, Nancy, any time of you have somebody, ostensibly, a person of interest in a murder, then they`re going to, you know, tighten it up and pick them up on something less serious. And the point is...

GRACE: That`s my point, exactly.

BURNS: Yes -- no, you`re exactly right. And they`re going to hold him until Monday`s hearing.

And also, one other point, very important, Nancy, is that when you get picked up on a parole violation, you don`t necessarily have the same Fifth Amendment rights, either. If it`s part of parole, it`s cooperating.

GRACE: Absolutely.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: And I believe that parole hearing is the 10th.

So Christopher Amolsch, attorney from Washington -- Christopher, we keep saying, if the cops had this, they would charge him. I mean if they had that, if they had DNA, if they had fingerprints -- you know what? They don`t have to have anything really until just before that parole hearing, because if he is the guy, he is in the can. He`s not going anywhere.

Why should they reveal their cards now?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They won`t. They`re going to wait until the last minute and that`s exactly right. But I think that the Fifth Amendment right as he made would only apply to the parole violation. They can`t ask him any questions about any other pending criminal charge.

So they`re going to hold on to that case as long as they can.

GRACE: They can ask anything they want to.

AMOLSCH: Yes, but he doesn`t have to answer them. He has the Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate himself...

GRACE: Blah, blah, of course, he doesn`t have to answer them but they can ask. You said they can`t ask him those questions.

AMOLSCH: Well, they can...

GRACE: Yes, they can.

AMOLSCH: They can`t ask him and expect him to answer them. And part of what Doug is saying ...

GRACE: OK. Make up your mind, Amolsch. Let`s talk about the law.

AMOLSCH: I`m making it up right now. The law is...

GRACE: You`re making up what? Your answer?

AMOLSCH: No. If -- he has no Fifth Amendments rights as it relates to a parole violation. But as it relates to an underlying murder investigations...


AMOLSCH: ... he absolutely does. So they can ask only once.

GRACE: Hold on.

AMOLSCH: But he has no obligation to answer.

GRACE: Fifth Amendment is right to avoid self incrimination. You don`t have to talk to police and incriminate yourself. You don`t have to take the stand and incriminate yourself. That`s what Amolsch is talking about.

AMOLSCH: I understand.

GRACE: So Christopher Amolsch.

AMOLSCH: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: You just said, they can`t ask him questions about the murders. Absolutely not true.

AMOLSCH: Well, my point is, they can`t ask him and expect him to answer. The point is, with the parole violation, he has an obligation to cooperate and answer those questions.

He doesn`t have an obligation to answer questions about the other charges. So they will sit on it as long as they can and keep him in jail as long as they can until they have a case to make against him.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. That is "American Idol" finalist and friend of Jennifer Hudson`s, Jon Peter Lewis is with us.

Thank you for being with us.

Everyone, you remember Jon Peter Lewis from his days with "American Idol." He toured with Jennifer Hudson after the "Idol" for a couple of months.

What can you tell us about her during this emotional time, the time of the funerals?

JON PETER LEWIS, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST, FRIEND OF ACTRESS/SINGER JENNIFER HUDSON: Well, I mean, she`s a really religious person, you know. I think she`s going to be sticking a lot to her faith right now. I mean I always get, you know, a sense from her that she was -- you know, she`s just very -- very religious, you know, just very faithful, you know, to her, you know, beliefs and things like that. So I think...

GRACE: Now, this brother and mother were there to support her throughout the "Idol" competition, right?

LEWIS: Yes. Yes, I mean, they were always there for her. I mean -- and what a horrible thing to have happened, you know, to such a close -- you know, support group for her. I mean they were there for -- for everything.

I remember her mother, you know, on the set, and I remember her brother all the time, and spoke with him, you know, all of the time, actually, and every -- you know, see him almost every day.

And so, you know, it was -- it`s really horrible to think something like this could happen to, you know, someone that you know, and, you know, it`s tragic. I mean, it`s a reminder of how fragile life is, you know?

GRACE: To Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry -- Dr. Deltito, I know personally that crime victims go through a lot of phases of grieving, but when you are dealing with an ongoing criminal investigation, that retards the -- or delays the grieving process.

Would you not agree?

JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: I very much agree. Anything that keeps this type of thing going, alive, et cetera, that`s why people talk about closure when they find who the assassin is in a case or it`s been solved.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, let me see, Deltito. What do you mean, closure?

DELTITO: Well...

GRACE: Because this changes a crime victim`s life forever.

DELTITO: No, no...

GRACE: There is no closure, like one day you say, you know, I feel a lot better now. It changes everything about you. It practically changes your DNA make-up, when someone you love is murdered, much less your mother.

DELTITO: I agree that people in these situations really do not get over them. But somewhere, somehow, with time, and with knowledge coming out, and with support, they`re often able to move on with their lives and put these things a little bit more on the back burners. But I wholly agree with you that people could not get over these events.

GRACE: Dr. Deltito, the investigation -- explain to me your thoughts as to why that is a speed bump in the grieving process.

DELTITO: Well, it`s a speed bump because people are keeping it alive, they`re coming to you for information. You`re following it in the news. You`re -- at some point in these situations, or when there`s just a death by normal circumstances, someone goes back to work, they start to take on the roles that they had before as wife, mother, sister, singer, whatever.

And this type of situation, it keeps them as the identified friend or relative of the victim.

GRACE: Well, another thing, Doctor, to my mind is, you don`t really know what happened. If somebody dies of a heart attack in a hospital, the loss is just as extreme, if that`s one of your loved ones. But you know what happened.

Here, they have the added pain of not knowing what people that they loved more than anything suffered in their last moments. Did they suffer at all? Did they know what was happening? Did they have pain? She has no idea what her mother went through.

DELTITO: I think it`s unfortunate that she does have some idea of the suffering that the mother must have gone through. But you`re correct. And in not knowing, in the doubt, the goblins that come to us in the middle of the night are much more prominent, and make it much more difficult just to simply get back to baseline activities, and to grieve in an appropriate way, and in some ways to try to have the strength to continue on.

GRACE: Michelle Sigona, the funerals. Tell me about it.

SIGONA: The funeral was today, Nancy, and it was a private service with a few hundred close family and friends, Reverend Jesse Jackson, Chicago`s mayor was there, Fantasia was there, and actually sang a song.

It was just a very touching -- you know, obviously, extremely emotional ceremony. And there was a public ceremony yesterday, as well. So as the family and friends and everyone came out today, you can only imagine what they were going through.

And our thoughts and prayers are definitely with them.




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Only Casey knows where she really took Caylee. But this we know for sure. Just before 8:00 p.m., seven hours after Caylee was last seen alive, Casey and Tony Lazzaro were at this Blockbuster near his apartment on University Boulevard.

There`s Casey, there`s Tony. But by now, Caylee is nowhere to be seen. Lazzaro told Local 6, he had not seen Caylee at that point for two weeks.

These pictures are one reason investigators believe June 16th may have been the day Caylee died.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWS TALK 1150: Well, the latest is, of course, those cell phone pings, and that`s going to be a very important part if and when she comes to trial.

First off, 90 percent -- 97 percent of those cell phone calls were either made from the parents` house, Tony Lazzaro`s house, or from her ex- best friend`s house, Amy Huizinga. However, there is a big gap in that cell phone conversation and her usage, either text messaging or voice messaging on the 16th from the time...

GRACE: OK. Hold off. Wait a minute, Mark. Let me just clarify something. There -- when we say it`s unusual for there to be a break in the cell calls, Mark, this woman had to be 500 and 800 calls and texts within this period of time, 500 and 800.

So for her to have a chunk of time like four or five hours where she is cell-free and text-free is highly unusual. So, Mark -- Mark Williams, tell me what`s new? What do you know new about the pings?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s what I`m trying to get to. For example, you know, even though she was the cell phone and text messaging queen, for almost 12 hours, she did not use her cell phone whatsoever. And some of the pings have been located near Boggy Creek Road and Trade Port Road near the Orlando International Airport, and that`s one area where this search on Saturday that`s being coordinated by Tim Miller of Equusearch is going to concentrate on.

They think there may be something there.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter now helping to search for Caylee Anthony, tell me about the search and how it relates to these pings or lack thereof.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, the pings on a cell phone give you a -- a cell-tower is a three-sided object. And it can give you a direction that the phone was in up to three quarters or a mile and a half.

So it`s going to be relatively easy to find areas to search where the pings came from at the time. Now, Mark is right. There are times when the phone was dead. She didn`t use it. But the times that she did use it when it starts back up and she uses it is at an area.

So you get enough people out there, you`re going to be able to find the areas where these pings were from. It`s not going to be a big mystery. Everybody is on the same page as far as the pings. They are certain and definite where they came from.

GRACE: Leonard, who are the thousand searchers that you and Equusearch have managed to amass for the search?

PADILLA: Well, you`re responsible for a lot of it, because a lot of people contact me, and the first thing they say is, "I watch Nancy Grace every night," they e-mail, they say, I watch Nancy Grace, we`re going to be there.

A lady called me this morning. She says, I just left Oklahoma, I`m headed for Florida. A couple from Arizona, four bail bondsman from Arizona, they`re all heading in that direction starting tomorrow.

GRACE: You know, Leonard, have you actually thought about it? I know you`re going to be out there searching, if you happen upon anything? Have you actually thought about that?



PADILLA: Well, we sit around the office sometimes, like we did this morning, and we -- we run up some videos on the computer showing bodies decomposing, what they look like, what to look for.

And, you know, it`s like Caylee is a part of the family. It`s definitely she is a part of the office.

GRACE: You know, I want to ask Dr. Deltito, back to you. Doctor, how is it that we become so attached to a little girl we have never even met?

DELTITO: Well, it`s a classic story of once you get to know someone, even if from afar, they can be incorporated into your life. To a certain extent, we project the feelings that we have about other little girls who being -- for those of us who were little girls themselves, or when we were much younger interacting with little girls, on to the little girl.

GRACE: Well, I got to tell you something, Doctor, I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim until I gave birth to the twins and, especially, when I think about little Lucy and I think about what has become of little Caylee, it`s almost unbearable.

I think we project a lot on to these crime victims, especially little Caylee, somebody so young, so innocent, just beautiful.

DELTITO: Right. And given the profession that you`re in and the other gentleman is in, you know that there are bad people out there. You`ve seen the bad act. These things are so much realer to you and the sense of imminent danger to your own children is so much larger, looming psychologically, than someone who does not actually interact with this material on such a regular basis.

GRACE: I want to go to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, joining us tonight.

Ben, you`ve been reviewing all of tot mom`s cell phone text records. About how much time was she spending on the phone and texting?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Nancy, this is absolutely amazing. You`re absolutely right. I did a four-day period of time around the 16th. And Casey Anthony is texting on an average of 12 messages an hour. Not a day. 12 messages an hour.

There was a one-hour period on the 14th where she texted 66 messages. This woman is addicted to text messaging. I think if Caylee wanted her diaper changed she would have to text her mom.

This is just outrageous, how much time she spends on the phone. And looking at my records right in front of me here, I see three hours of a four-hour -- four-day period where she did not send a text message.

GRACE: And to Michael Sapraicone, former NYPD detective, that makes it all the more relevant, these hours that she went without texting and calling.

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, apparently, she was busy doing something else at that time. And that`s, I think, what the police -- law enforcement is going to look into. What was she doing during those times that she wasn`t texting?

GRACE: And where was she?



CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut. And my daughter would sacrifice going to prison and (INAUDIBLE) for her life, is to protect this child.



GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO.

Nikki, I understand that grandmother Cindy Anthony broke down at a vigil. What can you tell us?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, it was one of the weekly vigils that they`ve been holding on Sunday nights when their supporters and friends come to pray and spend some time with them. And a little girl that was the same age as Caylee approached Cindy and hugged her. And she broke down, understandably.

GRACE: Back to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert.

Ben, you stated that tot mom is spending about 12 texts per hour. What about cell calls?

LEVITAN: Well, those are mixed in as well. And primarily, she is texting. There are a number of calls to her boyfriend. There are a number of calls to family. But there`s nothing that`s unusual about those calls. Those are people she generally would call.

GRACE: Right.

LEVITAN: What she is not doing is sleeping, because I did an analysis of the time that she spent from the last text message of the night to when she sent the first text message of the next morning.

On average, on the 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th, she was sleeping three to four hours a night. And all of a sudden something happened on the night of the 16th. She slept 12 hours. And then the next two days she slept, oh, about 10 and 12 hours.

And then a pattern goes back to three and four hours. So clearly something happened during that time.

GRACE: Incredible. With me, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ronald Tucker, 21, Fountain, Colorado, killed Iraq on a second tour. Lost his life after helping build a soccer field for Iraqi children. Had a smile and a laugh that lit up a room.

Loved the Broncos, restoring cars, sports, NASCAR. Leaves behind grieving mom Susan, two sisters, including one serving the Navy.

Ronald Tucker, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.