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Nancy Grace
More Investigative Documents Released in Casey Anthony Murder Case
Aired November 06, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, 500-plus pages of highly sensitive police investigative files released. We learn tot mom admits she refuses to cooperate in the search for Caylee, repeatedly saying cops will not, quote, "break" her. She even bragged psychological testing confirmed she`s normal and that she`s never had a single mental health problem. Well, somebody should tell her defense team because they`re claiming little Caylee may have died from an overdose because mom Casey`s depressed or has a mental defect.
A leak from inside the prosecutor`s office says they will not seek the death penalty. These bombshell documents just released also reveal grandfather George physically sick to his stomach describing when he smelled mom Casey`s car and his gut-wrenching fear little Caylee was dead in the trunk. More friends reveal mom Casey never mentions a baby-sitter or shows any concern after Caylee goes missing. More of mom Casey`s web of lies emerges, even lying to her own lawyer. The defense files a motion demanding forensics from Tennessee`s Oak Ridge lab, all the tips, crime scene photos, investigative reports. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There`s only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut and my daughter would sacrifice going to prison for the rest of her life. That`s to protect the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense insists that Caylee Anthony is alive. But at the same time, the defense is arguing if Caylee is dead, that it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident," and that Caylee could have been poisoned by chloroform or she could have died while she was sedated from an unwitting overdose of sedative. The defense document describes Casey as troubled, possibly depressed.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Tonight. -the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is not dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all believe she`s alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In hundreds of pages of new discovery documents, we learn George Anthony believes that if he`s lost Caylee, he`s lost Casey, too, the interview ending abruptly when George Anthony tells investigators he`s feeling sick and later vomits.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I believe that there`s someone dead back there and I hate to say the word human. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t like the smell in the car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense document cites Casey`s lack of emotion after Caylee`s disappearance as proof that Casey is not normal, possibly suffering from mental or emotional stress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The document also argues that the death penalty is not an appropriate sentence in this case because Casey is young and she`s never had a criminal record.
CINDY ANTHONY: She is not a murderer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I will lie, I will steal and do whatever I can to find my daughter.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, how did we get these documents?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, today the state attorney`s office released 500 pages of new documents, and we`re getting a very interesting look into how George Anthony acts behind closed doors when he`s only talking to investigators. He says that when he went to go pick up Casey`s car from the tow truck company that he was afraid that Caylee was in the trunk just by the smell that was coming from outside.
GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on. I asked you how these documents were released. That`s what I asked you.
PETRIMOULX: It was released by the state attorney`s office. This is the discovery.
GRACE: Why? Why was it released to the public, though? How does the media get their mitts on it?
PETRIMOULX: It was basically e-mailed to our newsroom desk. This is something that Jose Baez has been asking for, and I`m not, you know, completely 100 percent sure of how that legal process works, but just like we`ve gotten all these other thousands of pages, they were, you know, basically e-mailed to our newsdesk.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Angie in California. Hi, Angie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to find out about if they`ve ever questioned Casey or anything to do with -- before Caylee ever went missing, the parents said she was working and we know she wasn`t working and we know there was no Zenaida, so none of her friends seem to have seen the baby very often. What was she doing all that time even before Caylee became missing?
GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What was she doing?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, most of the time, her parents were watching Caylee. Sometimes her friends said that she would bring Caylee with them to party and she would put Caylee to bed early and Caylee would sleep through the parties. But most of the time, the grandparents were watching Caylee.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I don`t want to believe that I have raised someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. But he went on to tell them, I believe -- I believe that there`s someone dead back there, and I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told investigators his daughter, Casey, lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more. He said they caught her in lies about work, money, and said she`s really good with computers. George Anthony also told sheriff`s investigators that the very first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, We lost her, we lost her. When he asked who, she said, Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, is it true that she actually brags that police won`t "break" her to get her to tell the truth, that she`s almost proud she`s not cooperating in the search for little Caylee?
PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, this comes from an interview with Department of Children and Families, where she basically says that the sheriff`s office is trying to break her and make her admit to something that she didn`t do. She tells them that she won`t break and that her and her attorney are ready to take this to trial.
GRACE: And she also goes on to brag that she has been psychologically examined and there`s absolutely nothing wrong with her?
PETRIMOULX: Yes, she talks about the evaluations that she got before she would be allowed to be let out of jail that first time and said that those tests showed that she didn`t have any mental problems.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta Eleanor Dixon, defense attorney out of Atlanta Peter Odom, and New York`s Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"
So Eleanor, bye-bye mental defect defense.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Oh, exactly, Nancy. I mean, it`s her own words coming back to haunt her. She couldn`t have said it better herself. And as a prosecutor, I would hammer that home.
GRACE: Also with me tonight, a very special guest joining us exclusively, attorney Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He is a veteran trial lawyer trying to help the grandparents. He is not in any way involved in the defense of Casey Anthony.
Mr. Nejame, thank you for being with us. I was especially interested in these documents where your client, George Anthony, says he was physically sick -- he was sick when he was recounting to police -- in fact, he went and threw up. He was recounting to police a story of when he got to that car and he smelled the smell, and these documents say he was muttering, Please don`t let it be Caylee in that car trunk.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, it`s fully been -- you know, this is -- this -- these documents have been here for a while. They`ve just been disclosed to the public. And it`s the point we`ve been wanting to make that I`ve been making all along. These are grandparents who have been going through an unimaginable hell. And they speak for themselves. You know, for anybody who`s been so vicious to suggest that they`ve had anything to do with this, these are the documents that, you know, we knew would be coming out, that these parents -- these grandparents are just devastated and were from the onset.
GRACE: You know, George Anthony -- everyone, we`re talking about little Caylee`s grandfather. He said that when he drove up to the home that evening, grandmother Cindy was pacing back and forth and back and forth out in front of the house, and her first words were, We lost her, we lost her. And he said, Who? She said, Caylee, we lost her. What did she mean by that?
NEJAME: Well, it`s obviously not my place to be commenting about that. We talked about before that the state is prosecuting this, and you know, my clients are going to be called as witnesses and have already been questioned by law enforcement. So we`re going to leave that up to them. But I think it clearly shows that these are two grandparents who were completely blindsided by these unfolding facts and that they`ve just been - - you know, found themselves in an unimaginable hell.
GRACE: I understand that your client, Cindy Anthony, has been very opposed in the past to Tim Miller with Equusearch coming and searching for possible remains of Caylee. Why?
NEJAME: That`s not correct. Tim is here with me right now. Tim and Cindy had a meeting in my office today...
GRACE: Recently. I said in the past.
NEJAME: Well, in the past, there was a misunderstanding. Cindy -- when Tim first came -- I think Tim can better speak to it. There was an understanding that he was coming here to search for a Caylee who was still with us. Tim ended up primarily doing a search, a ground search for a Caylee who`s no longer with us. And there was miscommunication, misunderstanding. Cindy fully supports and appreciates the people that are going out and assisting any positive way they can, whether they believe Caylee is with us or Caylee`s not with us.
And so that`s what we`ve been assisting them, is to communicate. Now there`s a full and complete understanding, and there were tears and there were hugs and there was an understanding. And I think that -- in fact, I know George and Cindy fully support everybody`s assistance, especially Tim`s, so that we can get some answers. And what`s being set up is a ground search and a live search. So we`ve got all answers for all people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Every focus that`s on Casey takes effort away from Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where my daughter is. Yes, that is the truth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a moment that you`ve ever thought for a second that maybe Casey had a hand in Caylee`s disappearance?
CINDY ANTHONY: Why go through all of that? Why put us through all of that? It doesn`t make sense. She would do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A web of lies -- that`s what police say they are dealing with in the search for Caylee Anthony.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`d lie to your parents and friends concerning your child`s whereabouts.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: You`re blaming that you`re sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going around and around with you, you know, because that`s pretty pointless.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She lied to the cops. She lied to everybody.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Over 500 documents inside the investigation just released, stunning interviews with grandfather George Anthony. We find out so much of his thinking.
To Kathi Belich with WFTV. Remember what he said in these documents regarding the pool in the back yard?
BELICH: Yes. Apparently, at some time around June 24, he believes he saw that the ladder to the pool was not safely stowed the way they did stow it so that Caylee could not get to the pool. And they -- he and Cindy had an argument about that. She accused him of being careless because, you know, it wasn`t safe for Caylee. He said he didn`t use the pool. And then they started to theorize that possibly that ladder was like that and possibly that had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance, that perhaps something had happened, that she had gotten into that pool and there was some sort of accident.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when you go back to your home or your apartment after work, you know how you left it. You know what -- I do, anyway -- what lights I leave on, how I leave the windows, the door. And when you come in and you see something out of place or something unusual, you notice it. Or at least I do. When they came home and they saw that that aboveground pool ladder was, I guess, there up against the pool, they never left it like that because of Caylee.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly. And you know, that has been one of the theories all along, Nancy. You know (INAUDIBLE) again, totally speculative. But that was one of the theories, that she had possibly drowned in the pool and that she`d taken the body and put it in the trunk. Now, they had also -- the cadaver dog apparently had hit on some human scent back by the little play area, which is not too far from the pool. So again, this is, again, one of the speculative theories, along with the chloroform and putting the baby in the trunk.
GRACE: Yes, but you know what? The pool theory doesn`t work...
BROOKS: No.
GRACE: ... because that does not account for the multiple searches on line for how to make chloroform.
BROOKS: Right. And the large amount of chloroform in the trunk. You know, there`s some theories -- OK, if it was a decomposing body, it would be smaller -- no, I`m not buying it. I`m thinking it`s the chloroform, just like you said, Nancy.
GRACE: And what did we learn -- to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO -- about George Anthony`s feelings regarding the defense attorney, Jose Baez?
PETRIMOULX: He basically says that (INAUDIBLE) he doesn`t like him, that he thinks that he has some kind of ulterior motive to take this case, and he doesn`t even know how that Casey is paying him.
GRACE: You know, the fee was about $5,000 up front she said she could pay and more later.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman. What could be an ulterior motive?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The only ulterior motive is getting publicity and getting your name out there and winding up on CNN every night as the attorney in a big case, which is not necessarily...
GRACE: Well, he certainly got his name out there. But I don`t know that it`s actually in a positive way, especially with those horrible PR relations that keep coming out. You know, Baez has not really done a bad job when he speaks publicly. He`s keeping mum. His client has spoken, Peter Odom, and that`s saying a lot. Usually, they talk like crazy when they get behind bars. He`s managed to keep a lid on her behind bars, anyway.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, Nancy. You know, we might second guess things that Baez has done, but he is doing a valiant job. And while some people might say...
GRACE: I don`t know if I`d go so far as valiant, Peter.
ODOM: But some people might say that he`s -- he`s not being seen in a positive light, but certainly, there`s a large sector out there that seems him as doing just what a defense attorney should do, vigorously representing the client.
GRACE: Well, Eleanor, speaking of not yakking -- the Department of Family and Children`s Services came over to investigate little Caylee, and mom Casey just sits down, kicks back and says, Hey, mom, put a sock in it, I`m going to do the talking. And she retells her whole story to these case workers. They`re like therapists.
DIXON: You`re right, Nancy, and they`re in a totally different position than law enforcement agents. And you know, it`s just another way that her story is getting out there and another way that you can impeach her perhaps later on with her lies.
GRACE: Yes, the Constitution protects you from police questioning, but not from blabbing to, you know, basically, volunteers that come in to look at a case.
To Kathi Belich. What did she tell the Department of Family and Children Services? We learned that in these documents, as well. She went on and on and on.
BELICH: She did. She insisted that she did still work for Universal Studios, which we all know that she did not.
GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. Leonard Padilla, did you hear what Belich just said? The DFACS workers come in and she goes, I don`t know why police keep I don`t work at Universal. I do. I`m seasonal. There are pay stubs. She`s sticking to her story no matter what, Padilla.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s what happened, too. The day the caseworker came out there, there were several of us there and a couple of the people were inside. And after the caseworker left and she went through her litany of lies one more time, she turns around and she says, I`ve got to find those pay stubs. They don`t want to believe that I still work out there. And she actually started looking for the pay stubs in the room.
GRACE: You know, I`ve got to go to the shrink. Dr. Janet Taylor joining us, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, it`s really bizarre, and it`s something that George Anthony, we learn in these documents, said, that Casey will take things to the limit, like insisting she worked at Universal and actually taking cops to Universal. And the poor security guy didn`t know that cops knew she didn`t work there, so he was trying to find the name of her boss and trying to find her name on the roster.
So they finally let them in. She goes all the way up to the door of the wrong building and says, OK, you guys have been looking at me the whole time. I admit I don`t work here. And just like this, she unloads on the county workers, tells the whole story again, then in front of everybody, goes to look for pay stubs that don`t exist. What is that?
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly, she believes her own lies. I mean, she has a long history of not telling the truth. Her father indicated that she`s a risk taker, and maybe in her own way, she`s just trying to game the system and see how much she can say before she actually gets pinned to something. But it`s interesting she has a way of making people believe her, and then she reels them, in and then that`s why we have just the big buckets, literally, of lies.
GRACE: And just like Anthony says, she takes it to the limit. Kathi Belich, what else did she tell the caseworkers?
BELICH: She explained how Caylee`s father had died in a car accident. He had set up a trust fund for Caylee. She talked about the baby-sitter again, Zenaida Gonzalez. And then again, she said she was tested psychologically, that she`s normal, and the sheriff`s office investigators are not going to break her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to the people who say your daughter has lied, that think she was up to no good and that she might have harmed your granddaughter?
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, those people don`t know my daughter. Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, the state attorney`s office has doubts on whether there`s enough evidence to seek the death penalty against Casey Anthony. We don`t if we`re going to have enough aggravating factors, he said. The case is developing. We`re still looking for a body. Bottom line, he says, death has not yet been ruled out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People." Let`s talk about the death penalty. Sources with in the DA`s office say they`re not seeking the death penalty, they don`t have enough aggravating circumstances. All it takes is one. And in Florida, simply the murder of a child under 12 equals an aggravated circumstance. What are they thinking?
SHERMAN: They`re thinking they don`t know what happened. And that`s the appropriate decision they`re making at this point.
GRACE: Well, they know enough to charge her with murder one.
SHERMAN: Well, there`s a big difference between just charging someone with murder one and asking for the death penalty. I think they`re making an appropriate and reasonable and cautious stance of waiting to see what comes out, what turns out, whether or not she...
GRACE: I bet you do...
SHERMAN: ... pleads guilty...
GRACE: ... don`t you!
SHERMAN: Absolutely.
GRACE: What about it, Eleanor Dixon?
DIXON: Well, Nancy, you`re completely right. It only takes one aggravating circumstance. In Florida, as you said, the death of a child less than 12 years of age, that would be one. And it`s enough for the death penalty.
GRACE: It`s also especially heinous, atrocious and cruel, which is another circumstance, Eleanor.
DIXON: Exactly. So you`ve got two. And there`s probably more, too. But think of the chloroform.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: After about 7 o`clock when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He told investigators that his daughter Casey lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more.
C. ANTHONY: Walked her to the stairs. That`s where I dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When you dropped her off, who took her at that point?
C. ANTHONY: Zani did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me, anybody, I can find Caylee?
C. ANTHONY: No, because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Anthony told sheriff`s investigators that the first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, we lost her, we lost her. When he asked, who, she said, Caylee.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE LAWYER: We all believe she`s alive. And these tips are -- if there`s one credible tip in that 5,000, it`s worth us going through.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Doesn`t the key lie with her? Why do you need to rely on strangers` tips when she is the one who really can lead her in some direction?
BAEZ: Cathy, I`m not going to disclose any theories of defense or anything that we plan on bringing out in the court.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think she`s being open and honest with you?
BAEZ: I don`t think that`s wise for me to make any statements about my communication with her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You`re not going to disclose anything? Well, guess what? A written memo from the defense camp has surfaced to the prosecutors asking them not to seek the death penalty. In it, it goes so far as to state the little girl may have died from an overdose of sedatives.
We learn of these police documents I`ve got in my hands right here, George Anthony states -- I told the guy will you please walk around the back of the car and looked inside with me. As I walked around, I whispered out to myself, please don`t let it be Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was saying.
I opened it up and I saw the bag. That`s when I saw the stain. I did see a stain. It`s where the spare tire was, a basketball-sized stain. Not exactly circular.
OK. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist from John J. College of Criminal Justice, paid consultant to the Anthony defense team, there`s the stain you kept saying didn`t exist.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Oh, I -- that`s not true, Nancy. I never said the stain didn`t exist. I think anything in that car is important physical evidence and obviously.
GRACE: So could you explain to me, Kobe.
KOBILINSKY: Yes?
GRACE: . how a stain came from an old pizza?
KOBILINSKY: How can I even comment about that?
GRACE: Because that`s what the defense said. That`s what the family said. That was the smell, that was the stain, an old pizza.
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, that`s not science. And I deal with science. I have great respect for the legal system, I have great respect for the scientific system. I think if they`ve both got to be held to the highest standards and that`s what I`m trying to do.
GRACE: I respect that, Kobe. You know, I`ve known you for many, many years. I don`t necessarily respect what you say about this case, but I do agree with that.
We are taking your calls live. To Betsy in Indiana. Hi, Betsy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you, dear?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I want to say I love those twins of yours.
GRACE: Oh, I do, too. I do, too. I was up with little Lucy all night long and it was worth it. At 1:00 a.m. she was just sitting there looking at me. Like let`s play.
What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to ask, remember when the grandfather George said that wasn`t my granddaughter`s body in the trunk of that car -- who was it?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Back to Peter Odom, if it wasn`t little Caylee, does that mean there`s a third -- a third person we don`t know about? Another dead body? That`s been in a trunk?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s really hard to sort of rely on what George Anthony said. This is a man that is suffering great (INAUDIBLE) of grief.
GRACE: That`s not the point. That`s not the point. There was a dead body in the trunk according to forensics. If not Caylee, then that means somebody died up in the trunk?
ODOM: If the defense is pursuing a strategy that Caylee is still alive, in my opinion, that`s a bad strategy. No one reasonably believes that at this point.
GRACE: So that means, Mickey Sherman, they`ve got to fall back on insanity or mental defect? Her client just bragged to people -- she`s perfectly sane.
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, everything we`ve said tonight seems to prove that she`s a pathological liar. And that seems to be the foundation for maybe.
GRACE: Not a defense. Not yet, anyway.
SHERMAN: Well, it`s -- the foundation for someone who`s not all there. And I think that is maybe to see that they`re trying to play right now.
GRACE: Hey, Sherman.
SHERMAN: The diminished capacity.
GRACE: You want to tell me you`ve never told a pack of lies in your whole life?
SHERMAN: Never, never. And I just did another one.
GRACE: See, you just did another one.
That is not the framework, Dr. Janet Taylor, for any type of mental defect defense.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, absolutely. And clearly -- I mean in the realm of the law, I don`t know, but the framework for mental defect defense, but there can -- you can be psychotic and know right from wrong.
And she has no past history of any mental ailments. She herself said her psychological was normal. She`s never been arrested in the past. Sure, she`s had some ups and downs.
GRACE: OK, Doctor -- Dr. Taylor.
TAYLOR: That`s not enough. Yes. Yes.
GRACE: Are you sitting down?
TAYLOR: Yes.
GRACE: You sure?
TAYLOR: Yes.
GRACE: Good. I have in my hand here more of the documents just released as we went to air where Casey Anthony, the tot mom, says she is going to have a new vocation and that is going to be, "looking for missing children." Thoughts.
TAYLOR: Well, she certainly would be an expert at what it took to find a missing child in terms of how we -- you know, a mom could lose a child and not talk to the police about it. But, you know, maybe she`s turned over a new leaf and is going to help other people.
GRACE: Right. She could start by helping police right now.
Out to Mark Nejame, a special guest joining us tonight in a primetime exclusive. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He`s a veteran trial lawyer there in the Florida area.
Mr. Nejame, you have not been happy with some of the comments the bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has made about the case. Why?
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: You mean P.T. Barnum? I think a lot of Leonard personally. But, you know, there`s a lot of speculation that he fuels without having really a lot of facts.
GRACE: Such as?
NEJAME: Well, he started off -- with the first one I remember was within 24 hours of me getting on the case, it was suggested that I help negotiate some sort of book or movie deal that that`s been rampant to several people. I have not made one penny or negotiated anything for any type of deal nor have my clients. You know, to take -- to take speculations in the.
GRACE: Speaking of money.
NEJAME: Uh-huh.
GRACE: Were your clients paid for footage, photos, or interviews?
NEJAME: Absolutely not. You`ve made more money on this case than they have. The fact of the matter is.
GRACE: Let me clarify something.
NEJAME: No, allow me to finish.
GRACE: No. No. No.
NEJAME: Allow me to finish. They have not made a penny.
GRACE: You cannot make a comment like that, Mr. Nejame.
NEJAME: I did. Why?
GRACE: Because I get paid.
NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.
GRACE: I get paid.
NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.
GRACE: . the same paycheck whether I ever met you or whether there had ever been a Casey Anthony just as when I was a prosecutor. I didn`t get a bonus when I got a conviction or somebody got over on me in court. Not at all.
NEJAME: When ratings increase.
GRACE: No. No. Not at all. Believe me, there are not bonuses based on your clients` case.
NEJAME: Nobody is saying that but.
GRACE: No.
NEJAME: Hold on.
GRACE: You just said that, Mr. Nejame.
NEJAME: I said that you...
GRACE: Yes, you did.
NEJAME: If you`ll allow me to finish, I don`t know what you`re afraid of hearing, if you`d allow me to finish I`ll tell you.
GRACE: I`d like to hear the truth.
NEJAME: Then stop interrupting me. The fact of the matter is, is that you and other news agencies go ahead and fuel wild speculation, rampant speculation at times to increase.
GRACE: Such as.
NEJAME: Well, like the dress that was found. I knew about it, law enforcement knew about it.
GRACE: Oh.
NEJAME: Hold on, let me finish. If you want to hear the facts, then allow me to finish.
GRACE: But you`re lying.
NEJAME: Hold on. And you said on TV.
GRACE: But you are lying.
NEJAME: Got an 18-month-old child. I watched your show. An 18- month-old child could sit in a size 5 or 6. You`ve got a 1-year-old. You know darn well that no 18-month-old child could wear a 5 or 6 dress.
We knew it was a fake from the beginning. I spoke to law enforcement, I spoke to Tim Miller. That was going ahead and feeding something what we all knew was.
GRACE: Could you hurry up.
NEJAME: . not the dress.
GRACE: . before have to go to commercial break so I can address your pack of lies, Mr. Nejame.
NEJAME: Don`t you dare call me a liar because you know darn well I`m telling the truth.
GRACE: Number one, our producer here has a 2-year-old little girl that wears a size 6.
NEJAME: A 6.
GRACE: Number two -- the same.
NEJAME: Ask any mother.
GRACE: The same size as the little girl`s dress that was found. Number two.
NEJAME: Not true. Not true.
GRACE: When your client -- when your client went on the air with the little dress that belonged to Caylee, we showed that the moment that came out to say here`s the dress, the dress that was found was not Caylee`s. And the night that we discovered a dizzy dress had been found, we called you for comment. And you would not comment.
So don`t show up two months later.
NEJAME: Oh no, no, no. You`re not telling the truth now.
GRACE: . and try to make it look like there`ve been a big, a big conspiracy.
NEJAME: You -- you -- no, no conspiracy but it was sensationalized. We all knew the night before that that wasn`t the dressed.
GRACE: Why didn`t you call our producers.
NEJAME: Excuse me.
GRACE: . when we told you and asked you.
NEJAME: It was up -- because it was up to law enforcement to address it.
GRACE: So now you`re on the air whining.
NEJAME: Anybody -- anybody -- nobody`s whining.
GRACE: We got it wrong, but you knew that.
NEJAME: Excuse me. You`re the one whining. I`m calling you on the carpet for sensationalizing something.
GRACE: No. No, sir, you are not.
NEJAME: . that any mother in America would know that a 1 1/2-year-old child does not wear a size 5 or 6.
GRACE: No. No.
NEJAME: Don`t tell me no. You know that`s correct.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony poisoned by chloroform?
Orlando affiliate WFTV is reporting that despite repeated claims from her mother`s attorneys that she`s alive, they`re now planning a memo to prosecutors that if the little girl is dead, it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident." And they`re hinting the death could have been caused by the overdose of a sedative.
Even though the little girl has never been found, her mother, Casey, is charged with first-degree murder in her disappearance and could face the death penalty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: As we go to air tonight, just released, over 500 pages of investigative files from police.
I want to follow up with what the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony was stating earlier suggesting that the media had lied about a little dress volunteers had found.
I want to go to our producer, Norm, who`s standing in the control room. Let`s see Norm. There you are.
Norm, you have a daughter, Isabelle. When she was 2, was she wearing a child`s size 6?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, at certain brands.
GRACE: Are you sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
GRACE: OK. I guess, you know, I got a lot to learn as a new mother. The twins just turned 1. But there you have it, from the horse`s mouth.
Mr. Nejame, have your clients taken a polygraph yet? George and Cindy Anthony?
NEJAME: We`ve checked with the expert polygraph officer with -- the expert polygraph.
GRACE: What? I`m sorry, you`re stuttering.
NEJAME: Excuse me, I stuttered, I stuttered, and I apologize.
GRACE: Yes. Just yes or no.
NEJAME: Slow down. Slow down. I made a mistake. I apologize. The answer is we have checked with an expert polygraph administrator.
GRACE: But, but, but.
NEJAME: Don`t interrupt me, please, don`t be so rude. We checked with a qualified polygraph.
GRACE: Yes, no?
NEJAME: One more time. That`s the second time you`ve interrupted me. We`ve attempted.
GRACE: Third, actually.
NEJAME: All right, well, then continue to be rude. Are you through?
GRACE: Yes, no, have they taken a poly?
NEJAME: The answer is, is that we have checked and they are not proper candidates for taking them.
GRACE: Why?
NEJAME: Because she is on medication.
GRACE: Really?
NEJAME: Yes.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks.
NEJAME: Wait -- would you not.
GRACE: Mike, how many people have taken -- take polygraphs that are on medication? I mean.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Tell me someone almost in the United States anymore, Nancy, that`s not on some kind of medication. That is not a disqualifier for taking a polygraph.
GRACE: I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, these documents that have been released are bombshell, especially when the tot mom goes on and on voluntarily to DFAC workers, Family and Children Welfare, that come to the home.
What possessed her? What does she discuss with them?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, again, she talks about the same things that she told investigators that we now know are not true. They described her as being very smooth, very cool, very emotionally detached.
She was actually telling them that she might get overemotional and may not be able to tell them what they need to know. But they actually described her as quite the opposite. And she actually went on to say also that she enjoyed working with the agencies and volunteers that were looking for her daughter.
There`s no evidence that she ever did that. And then she went on to say as you said earlier that now she`d like this new vocation of helping with missing children.
GRACE: Is it true that the state, Drew Petrimoulx, the prosecutors, are asking for a gag order?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Well, basically what they said is they`re asking that even people that worked for the sheriff`s office, the state attorney`s office, Jose Baez, anyone that works for his law firm, the Anthony family themselves, all stopped talking about this case.
They even mentioned your show and Dr. Kobilinsky on there saying that all this talk about specifics of the case is, you know, detrimental to the investigation, detrimental to this whole thing and they want everyone to stop all of this conversation about evidence.
GRACE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand, Kathi Belich, that another commissary order was made by the tot mom from behind bars and now she`s getting pastries. What happened to gruel behind bars? Now there`s pastries?
BELICH: Getting pop tarts and a lot of snacks and a Spanish-American dictionary among other things that she`s ordering from the jail. I can`t explain.
GRACE: You know, I want to take your calls right now, everybody. Joining us right now, Kathi Belich, Drew Petrimoulx, Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Anthony, and the rest of our panel.
Donna in Massachusetts, Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My daughter Corine(ph) and I think you`re great and we have to say thank you for your dedication and compassion and don`t ever change, please.
GRACE: Thank you. You can tell that to the defense bar on the show tonight. Go ahead, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone put a hot pocket in his pocket. But anyways, my question was this. There was a person that saw her coming out of the woods. Was there ever a shovel found or any type of dirt or anything to that effect ever tested?
GRACE: What about it, Kathi Belich? What do we know about that sighting and whether any dirt has been tested?
BELICH: What we do know is the dirt was found in her car trunk. We know that a shovel from her neighbor was tested and according to the reports we`ve gotten so far, there`s not a whole lot of evidence there that would tell you one way or the other what went on.
As far as that shovel that an eyewitness claims to have seen in her hands coming out of the woods, we don`t know where that shovel is. And investigators plan to go back to that area and search this weekend as well.
GRACE: Speaking of the search this weekend, and it`s headed up by Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch, and he is with us tonight.
Tim, as always, it`s good to see you. I understand that you have some extremely sophisticated maps you`re using in the search. What are they?
TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`ve got actually three-dimensional maps. It`s $150,000, it`s a software program itself and we`re going to be doing a lot of flying tomorrow, putting the maps together.
We`ve got tremendous amount of mapping together right now. And Nancy, I think this search could come off as one of the largest searches in history for a missing person. And, again, Caylee has just grabbed the hearts of everybody across America and as huge as growing by the second.
GRACE: How many team leaders are you going to have?
MILLER: We`ve got over 250 team leaders right now alone, not counting the volunteers coming. And so far I think I`ve flown in 32 people as a core team. And it`s -- everybody is looking forward to hopefully bringing this thing to a close this weekend.
GRACE: You know, I pray, I pray that you`re right. So the Anthonys can have some peace of mind.
As we go to break, happy birthday to a little 12-year-old, our New York friend crime fighter Sara. She is a champion for our military heroes and has created a youth initiative called Victoria`s Veterans in her hometown. She is sending cheer and cookies to veterans.
Happy birthday, wonderful Sara.
And tonight, we ask again for your prayers for Attorney Sandy Schiff. Her leukemia has returned and she needs our thoughts and prayers now more than ever.
Sandy, stay strong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Loraine in New Jersey, hi, Loraine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. I think we`re all hoping that the search turns up something so the parents get closure over this. But what happens if they do the search and they do not find anything?
GRACE: You know, good question.
Leonard Padilla, what would be next?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Let me go backwards on something. You know that stain you`ve been talking about? When we brought it up, Cindy told us that that stain was there in the car in the year 2000 when they bought the car for Lee. So any other change in her attitude or discussion about that would be totally different.
Now, if the body is not located in a search, obviously, the defense will say see, she`s alive and she`s somewhere. And then this whole thing possibly will continue. But I believe, and Tim will tell you the same thing, I just got to believe we`re going to find the body.
GRACE: Hey, Leonard, I know you were called Barnum in a circus person.
PADILLA: P.T. Barnum? Let me tell you, let me tell you.
GRACE: No, no, no. Hold on.
PADILLA: Hold on. P.T. Barnum.
GRACE: Have you noticed that people don`t like what you`re saying, they attack you.
PADILLA: P.T. Barnum`s biggest act was Tom Thumb. He made more money by getting him on -- out in the public than any other act he had.
GRACE: And your point is?
PADILLA: Well, I`m not the only one sitting here in front of your camera here tonight.
GRACE: Tell it. Tell it, brother.
All right, everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Chad Caldwell, 24, Spokane, Washington, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. Awarded two army commendation medals, risked his life saving a lieutenant colonel and a pregnant woman trapped after a bombing.
Loved skateboarding. Dreamed of a military career. Leaves behind parents Carol and Mark, brother Justin, sister Christa. Widow and high school sweetheart Rachel. Sons Trevor and Cohen.
Chad Caldwell, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.
And tonight, a special good night from New Jersey, friends of the show, two little crime fighters, my Liz`s sons, Koa and Kye. They`re naturals, totally naturals.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
