Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Financial Meltdown; GOP Star Search; Battle Over Same-Sex Marriage; Escape from Jonestown; Dogs for the First Family
Aired November 12, 2008 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ACHOR: Tonight Sarah Palin's media blitz picking up speed; trying to position herself for her future in the GOP. Two more interviews today, both on CNN. On the trail, Palin barely talked to the reporters and barely talked to CNN and now she can't seem to say enough.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "SITUATION ROOM": Look back and you say to yourself I wish I would have done something differently -- is there anything and you looked back and say you know I think could have done something differently that might have helped.
GOV. SARAH PALIN, (R) ALASKA: I just wish that there had been more hours in the day and been able to speak to more Americans through the media. I would have loved to --
BLITZER: We tried, we tried, and God knows we tried.
PALIN: Yes, you're right that's why we are here today Wolf.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes, she's talking now and not just about the recent past but also her future. Is she angling for a run in 2012? If so is all this talk helping? We'll "Dig Deeper" tonight.
But we begin with "Breaking News." If you thought the economy was better because it hasn't been in the headlines for the last week, today was a wakeup call. The DOW plunging more than 400 points; Asian markets right now plunging as well, Japan's Nikkei down more than five percent in early trading. And that's happening right now. Also South Korean stocks down.
Here in the U.S. more job cuts. Cessna Aircraft eliminating more than 600 jobs, Morgan Stanley said it'll cut 10 percent of its biggest business division.
All that the backdrop for today's stunning announcement by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. He said, he is ditching his original plan to buy up all those toxic mortgage assets that banks are drowning in.
Instead the government is going to invest the financial rescue package directly into banks and other firms, a strategy Paulson says is a better way to free up credit to consumers.
Now, for those who say this is a flip-flop, here's what Paulson had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: The situation worsened. The facts changed. I will never apologize for changing an approach or strategy when the facts change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Paulson ruled out using the bailout money Congress approved last month to help the struggling U.S. auto industry, but Congressional Democrats are pressing for a bailout to save the big three car companies.
So fixing the economy crisis is by far the most extreme challenge facing President-elect Barack Obama. The game plan has changed; just weeks ago, Paulson and others told Congress that buying up toxic mortgage debt was the key to preventing an economic meltdown.
So why the change of course; it is your money, it's your future. You need to know about this. Joining me is CNN's senior political analyst and former presidential adviser David Gergen, CNN's Candy Crowley and Marcus Mabry, the senior business editor for the "New York Times".
Marcus, what is this about? What does it mean?
MARCUS MABRY, NEW YORK TIMES SENIOR BUSINESS EDITOR: Well, what it means, Anderson, is that banks weren't lending. So this is an attempt to give them more capital, recapitalize banks, inject capital in them so they have money directly from you and me, that's from the U.S. government, but you know from our pockets originally so that they will actually start to lend to creditworthy borrowers, not just people who are sub-prime borrowers.
And that was the, of course, the crux of the credit crisis and the credit crunch that we have, but this has now has become an economic crisis. But the money that was first made available to them earlier was not being used to actually lend even to creditworthy borrowers.
This is an attempt to actually to free up the credit markets so our economy can keep going. Credit is the lubricant that actually lubricates the economy, and makes the machine run. Totally, we have failed in the past. What they were doing with buying up poor assets didn't have a great promise.
COOPER: So what is so scary about this, David, because I mean, they seemed to know what they were talking about four weeks ago. And now they say actually the facts have changed and so we're going to do the exact opposite of what we are talking about. It kind of makes me think does anyone really know what they're talking about?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's what the "New York Times" is attributing the drop in the stock market today to was there is sense growing on Wall Street that maybe Washington doesn't have a steady hand on the wheel. And those circumstances fear becomes more pervasive and people pull out of the market. I think, that's what the essence of what you all are arguing in the newspaper.
MABRY: There is a crisis of confidence that continues. This does not help to alleviate that crisis of confidence. But we should point out the Europeans did this several weeks ago. This is the way they decided to bail out their banks was with a capital infusion.
COOPER: With a lot more money though, than we are doing, don't they?
MABRY: Well absolutely, with this money we wind up believe me injecting more capital into our banks than this. This is just the beginning.
GERGEN: I think it was also putting pressure on the Democrats to step in to what's considered a vacuum of power right now in Washington. And that is why the Democratic Congress has been so, I think, so vigorous and just maybe pushing next week both for a stimulus package and for a bailout of Detroit.
COOPER: Candy Crowley, it's an interesting position for Barack Obama to be in. I guess weighing the question of should he weigh in now or perhaps stay on the sidelines? A kind of watch this play out?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He's weighing in quietly. I mean, we do know that he was urging President Bush about the auto industry, that he talked to him about a car czar, sort of overlooking improvements in how the auto industry does business and what it produces. He's also talked to the leadership on Capitol Hill about what he'd like to see in some of these packages.
But he is not going to the E-20 summit. He will have some people there to talk to whoever would like to talk, some staffers, that kind of thing.
Listen, Barack Obama doesn't want to own the problem. He wants to own the solution. So he has said several times, listen, there is only one President at a time, which is true.
But he also doesn't want to get in the middle of this as it is imploding. He would much prefer January 20th come and he be the fix- it man. So he doesn't want to own this problem at this point but he is working behind the scenes where he can which is really to try to get Capitol Hill around something that he supports.
COOPER: David, is this already the first big test of Barack Obama's leadership? I mean, you have Congress wanting bailout of the big three automakers, you have the White House pushing against it. Is this his test?
GERGEN: I think it is partly a test because people are looking to him for leadership. And if everything falls apart not only George Bush will be blamed but he'll be blamed, too, if by December General Motors goes down. So it's going to be important for him to exercise leadership quietly behind the scenes, to lead from behind not from in front.
But there is another danger that's starting to crop up here Anderson, for his leadership. And that is, that in this power vacuum as Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank and Harry Reid and other Democrats in Congress, speak up and take the lead and he is sort of standing away from it, there's going to be a sense that maybe we elected the Democrats to lead the country, and not Barack Obama.
And we found this -- Bill Clinton found this, Democrats in your own party can be sometimes be one of your biggest problems. And if they get the sense they are in charge, that's going to definitely undercut his leadership once January, I think it's a tricky problem for him.
MABRY: I think he is in a real hard bind though because either way he loses.
GERGEN: He could lose.
MABRY: If he gets involved in this now, and believe me it's not settled, it's going to get much nastier before it's over.
GERGEN: Yes.
MABRY: There is going to have to be lots of money that went to Detroit. If he gets involved he loses because no one is going to win this. This is not going to end up well before the end of the year.
GERGEN: But what could happen is if he is seen as having a hand and crafting both the stimulus package and automobile rescue package and George Bush signs them both he will get points for that.
COOPER: Candy, any word on who he is going to name for Treasury Secretary? I assume Paulson is not going to be sticking around?
CROWLEY: I doubt it, lots of words. Look, at this point Barack Obama has a different definition of what would considered haste means. He has a longer version of considered haste, which is how he said he was going to pick these cabinet members. They are so aware that whoever he picks sends this giant signal throughout all levels of the economy.
Watch Wall Street and the DOW and how it reacts to things and can move on a dime. They understand what this pick means. They don't want to make mistakes.
They've watched other administrations make mistakes when the stakes were not that high. The stakes are very high here so when it comes to Treasury Secretary they are being very, very careful simply because they know it's really symbolic.
COOPER: Candy Crowley thanks very much, David Gergen as well, and Marcus Mabry as well, interesting discussion.
We're going to have more on this. We'll also going to name or continue our "Most Wanted List: The Culprits of the Collapse." Who are the folks who are costing you all this money? Tonight, we name another name. As always we'll be blogging throughout the hour. Join the conversation at ac360.com. Also check out Erica Hill's live Web cast during the breaks.
Just ahead on the program, "The Most Wanted Culprits of the Collapse." Tonight we're shining a light on the ailing auto industry, the big three car makers are begging for government bailouts. Critics say they have themselves to blame for the mess they are in.
Coming up, well, we'll find out what CEO is under fire tonight.
Also tonight, more of Sarah Palin's interview with Wolf Blitzer, plus what some of her fellow Republican Governors think about of her future. Is she her party's next big star?
We've got the "Raw Politics."
And so many dogs in need of a home and the new First Family in search of their own pooch. Tonight, Erica Hill on the trail of who may be the Obamas' next pet?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So looking back you don't regret that tough language during the campaign?
PALIN: No and I do not think that it is off base nor mean spirited nor a negative campaigning to call someone out on their associations and their record. And that's why I did it.
BLITZER: I just want to start on a footnote, was that your idea or did somebody write those lines for you?
PALIN: It's a collaborative effort there in deciding how do we start bringing up some of the associations that perhaps -- perhaps would be impacting on an administration and on the future of America.
But again though, Wolf, knowing that it really at this point I don't want to point fingers backwards and play the blame game certainly on anything that took place in terms of strategy or messaging in the campaign. Now is the time to move forward together, and start progressing America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Sarah Palin talking to Wolf Blitzer today, in Miami where she was attending the Republican Governor's Conference. She is talking a lot these days, you may have noticed. These aren't exactly bright and shining times for the Republican Party.
The Miami meeting was a chance to talk about where the GOP may be headed. And how to regain the ground it has lost. For Governor Palin it was also a chance to get her message out to the reporters she preferred to avoid on the trail. CNN's Dana Bash has the "Raw Politics."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sixteen Republican Governors are gathered for a conference in Miami but there's only one generating this crush of cameras. Sarah Palin, wading through reporters still defending herself against post-election criticism from anonymous McCain aides.
PALIN: A cowardly way, certainly, of wrapping up a campaign. So I'm curious too as to who these people were.
BASH: And always happy to discuss her future.
PALIN: I think it's what I represent simply the hard working American families; a woman on the ticket that perhaps represents that. It would be good for the party.
BASH: Palin is one of many GOP Governors who represent rare bright spots for an otherwise depressed party. Popular figures like Florida's Charlie Crist, Louisiana's Bobby Jindal and Minnesota's Tim Pawlenty; all here debating the Republicans' way out of the wilderness and not so subtly competing to be the party's guide.
South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford came preaching a return to fiscal responsibility and bristles at the suggestion that Palin is suddenly the leading voice here.
GOV. MARK SANFORD, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: There are a lot of other governors who are going to be sitting around the same table who have just as stronger opinions as they had before she was the nominee? Yes. Will she be among the different strong voices? Yes. Will she be the strong voice? No.
BASH: Governor Pawlenty is here, pushing to modernize the GOP, broaden its appeal and made a point of reminding us about the narrow scope of Palin's.
GOV. TIM PAWLENTY, (R) MINNESOTA: Out on the campaign trail she generated a lot of excitement within the Republican Party base. But again, for all of us the question is, it's great to have good Republican rallies but the real challenge and opportunity is we've got to grow the party beyond just the base if we're going to be successful.
BASH: Most of these Republican governors are eager to share their prescriptions for their ailing party. So Wolf Blitzer asked Palin for her ideas.
PALIN: Nothing specific right now sitting here in these chairs that I'm going to be proposing, but in working with these governors who again, on the front lines are forced to and it's our privileged obligation to find solutions to the challenges facing our own states every day, being held accountable. BASH: A non-answer that did not go unnoticed among some fellow governors who admire Palin's star power but privately wonder if she has the policy chops to carry the party long term.
Palin may begin to answer that question on day two of this conference. She'll join some of her fellow Republican governors in a panel discussion entitled, "Looking Towards the Future: The GOP in Transition."
Dana Bash, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Governor Palin was just getting warmed up.
We've heard a lot more from her today in two interviews with CNN. She talked about God, running for President in '12. She also gives a shout out to President Bush. Those are her words, by the way, shout out. Palin "Up Close" next.
And later, the battle over same-sex marriage; today, Connecticut began allowing gay marriages and protests against California's passage of Proposition 8 intensify, this one tonight, in New York. They are focusing in the large part of the Mormon Church. We'll tell you why and what may happen next. Author Dan Savage joins us live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Sarah Palin's national tour landed in Miami today. She'll be speaking at the Republican Governors Association meeting tomorrow. Basically, she hasn't stopped talking since the election. What a difference.
During the campaign Palin rarely spoke to CNN. And believe me we tried to get her right here on this program. But that's all ancient history. And now, she's on a media blitz; reshaping her image for whatever comes next.
Today she sat down with Larry King and earlier with Wolf Blitzer. We want you to hear what she told Wolf.
So "Up Close," here's Governor Palin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about what's going on in our country right now. It's a pretty historic moment, when you think about it; the first African-American President, President-elect Barack Obama. This is historic.
What does it mean to you?
PALIN: It is historic and I think this time is full of optimism. And it's an opportunity for everybody to get it together and start working together. For us as Republicans to reach out to Barack Obama and the new administration that will be ushered in and offer the solutions that we see for meeting some of America's great challenges right now.
BLITZER: Are you ready to help him?
PALIN: I'm more than willing and able to help President-elect Barack Obama to start tapping into the domestic solutions that we have now so we can quit being so reliant on foreign sources of energy.
BLITZER: So if he reaches out to you and says Governor Palin, I need your help on energy or some other issues, kids with special needs, for example --
PALIN: Yes.
BLITZER: I want you to be part of the commission, you would be more than happy to say yes Mr. President?
PALIN: It would be my honor to assist and support our new President and the new administration. Yes.
BLITZER: Because, during the campaign, every presidential campaign, things are said, it's tough. As you well know it gets sometimes pretty fierce out there.
And during the campaign you said this -- you said this is not a man who sees America as you see it and how I see America and then you went on to say someone who sees America it seems of being so imperfect that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country.
PALIN: Well, I still am concerned about that association with Bill Ayers. And if anybody still wants to talk about it, I will. Because this is an unrepentant domestic terrorist who had campaigned to blow up, to destroy our Pentagon and our U.S. Capitol. That's an association that still bothers me.
And I think it's still fair to talk about it, however, the campaign is over. That chapter is closed. Now is the time to move on. And to, again, make sure that all of us are doing all we can to progress this nation.
BLITZER: Let's talk about some of the current issues on the agenda right now, and I speak to you as someone who is emerging as a potential leader not only in the Republican Party but if you want to run again for President or Vice President down the road.
Right now, the big issue, should the U.S. government, the Federal Government, bail out the Detroit the big three automakers?
PALIN: Well, it's in debate right now. And I'm listening closely to the debate. And there's a lot of information that even you and I certainly aren't privy to, to understand all the ramifications if federal government were going to step in and bail out.
But we do know that the auto industry is that important and certainly it needs to be considered. But I'm not going to ignore the debate, again, that I think needs to lead to the personal responsibility, the management decisions that have been made in some of these companies and corporations that have also led us to where we are.
BLITZER: So I hear you say you need more information right now.
PALIN: Yes. I do.
BLITZER: If he is re-elected, they are still counting ballots I think it up there and the Senate goes ahead and kicks him out of the Senate. Is that something you might be interested in? Could you name yourself, for example, to succeed Ted Stevens?
PALIN: I suppose if you were that egotistical and arrogant you could name yourself but I'm not one to name myself.
BLITZER: Do you want to be in the United States Senate?
PALIN: I believe that I have -- I feel I have a contract with Alaskans to serve. I've got two more years in my term. I'm going to serve Alaskans to the best of my ability. At this point it is as Governor.
Now, if something shifted dramatically and if it were acknowledged up there that I could be better put to use for my state in the U.S. Senate, I would certainly consider that.
But, that would take a special election and everything else. I'm not one to appoint myself or a member of my family to take the place of any vacancy.
BLITZER: You are not ruling out a run in 2012 for President of the United States are you?
PALIN: Not ruling that out. But there again, that is based on my philosophy. It's crazy to close the door before you even know what's open in front of you. You travel this road in life and as you turn a corner and there may be something there, that circumstances change, you got to call an audible, and you decide to shift gears, and take another direction. I'm always open for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Sarah Palin with Wolf Blitzer.
And when we come back, who is to blame for the economic mess we are in? We've already named "The Ten Most Wanted Culprits of the Collapse." But there are so many of these folks we are extending the list.
Tonight, one of the head honchos of the auto industry. You need to hear how this guy is costing you. Who is he? Find out ahead.
And protests around the country intensifying against the Mormon Church's huge efforts to prevent gay-marriage. What exactly did the church do? Find out tonight.
And then, on the 30th anniversary of the Jonestown mass murder/suicide, a new effort to understand what really happened. The mysteries revealed, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, HOLLYWOOD ACTRESS: I think people just kind of feel like they would like their rights if they want to get married that all Americans have. And that is to raise your children, to raise your family to do all the things that you want to do and achieve the American dream. And you don't have to be my idea of the American dream or even your idea. It's just the idea of the American dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Whoopi Goldberg tonight, with protesters outside the Mormon temple here, in New York City; part of a wave of demonstrations really against the church for spearheading a multi-million dollar campaign to pass Proposition 8 in California last week, which makes same-sex marriage there illegal.
The Mormon Church encouraged followers to donate time and money by some estimates $22 million was raised by Mormons in which went into a massive ad campaign and phone banking blitz to drive the passage of proposition 8.
While same-sex marriage is now illegal in California it became legal today in Connecticut where the first same sex-couples wed. Joining me now: writer Dan Savage, author of "The Commitment" who was at the protest tonight here in New York; and Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council which supported Proposition 8 and author of "Personal Faith, Public Policy."
Good to have you both with us.
Dan I want to read in-part a statement that the Mormon Church put out about these demonstrations. They say, "It is disturbing that our church or any other group would be singled out for speaking out voting and being part of the democratic process."
Why is the Mormon Church being singled out?
DAN SAVAGE, AUTHOR, "THE COMMITMENT": Part of the democratic process is if you're going to throw a punch you're going to have a punch thrown back. You don't get to march in the public square, slime people, malign people and demagogue against people and then jump behind a bush and say, no God we're a church. You can't criticize us. You can't bring it back to our frond doors and say we have a problem with what you've been saying about us in public and doing to us in the public square.
The Mormon Church has politicized itself with this movement and -- in California to ban same-sex marriage. And it wasn't just the Mormon Church encouraged its followers. The first prophet of the Mormon Church had a letter read from every temple, every Mormon temple in the land instructing its members as a religious duty to donate time and money to this campaign. You cannot campaign against the vulnerable minority group in this country in the political arena without expecting some sort of response.
COOPER: Tony, is what the church did appropriate? And I know you've been critical of the demonstrations. Is it inappropriate for demonstrators you think to focus on the Mormon Church?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I mean, you can also focus on the African-American churches, where African- Americans voted over 70 percent of them voted for the marriage amendment in California.
This really underscores what many people were saying that this advancement of same-sex marriage was going to bring about this confrontation with religious liberties. And it's very frightening when you begin to see --
SAVAGE: There is no confrontation with religious liberties.
PERKINS: -- these demonstrations of Violating the spaces of the church and going in and disrupting their services.
SAVAGE: That hasn't happened.
PERKINS: Yes, it has happened. They've been spray painting churches, vandalizing churches.
COOPER: Tony, the tens of thousands of people demonstrated so far most have been extremely peaceful. There may have been a few incidences here and there. But I don't think it is accurate to say there has been a large scale of invasion of churches.
SAVAGE: Gay bars have been fire bombed.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: It's just like this; Dan will not allow people to speak. There was a full debate on this. In fact Dan's side raised more money and it came from special interest groups or wealthy individuals like Tim Gill who put in the money and they had this full discussion about this in California. In fact, they've had it twice now. I don't understand --
SAVAGE: They had it twice now and in 2000 your side won by 20 to 30 points. This time you won by four points. You guys are losing this war against religious freedom. There are religions in this country that will marry gay and lesbian couples. What about their religious freedom?
PERKINS: Look, the courts have stepped in -- you've gone to the courts, the courts overthrew the vote of over four million people from 2000. They gathered over a million signatures.
SAVAGE: Which is part of what courts in our system supposed to do; the constitution exists to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: No. You don't understand the rule of law that, if you want to change the law, instead of using the courts to redefine marriage.
SAVAGE: So Loving v. Virginia when the courts declared interracial marriage to be a constitutional right in the teeth of popular support which was against interracial marriage at the time.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: Dan, you know that is a red herring. That is absolutely a red herring.
SAVAGE: It is not a red herring. You were talking about the function of the courts.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No one can hear either of you talk. Dan, finish your thought and will have Tony respond.
SAVAGE: Well, Tony is saying that the courts have no right to overrule the will of the people. That's what the courts exist for. That is what the constitution exists for. That's what the bill of rights is there for; to carve out from the tyranny of the majority.
COOPER: Tony, should the civil rights of individuals be left up to the majority to decide?
PERKINS: No one has unrestrained liberties in this country to marry whomever they want. Someone can't marry a close blood relative or an underage person. There are restrictions upheld in almost every civilization for millennia.
SAVAGE: For millennia it was legal for men to beat their wives.
PERKINS: Dan, would you let somebody else speak.
COOPER: Tony, you've got to finish your thought because I want to ask one other question. Tony, finish your though.
PERKINS: Look, this is about redefining marriage. It is not about what -- you try to compare this to interracial marriage. It is not the same thing. There were extra provisions put that would prohibit people that were man and woman to marry.
This is redefining marriage. This is a total different issue. The people of California have spoken. In fact, every time this has gone on to the ballot and people have had a chance to vote --
COOPER: There is a huge generational divide. In the results of Proposition 8, basically older Americans voted --
SAVAGE: The Mormon Church bankrolled this and shoved it through. The protest could also, I guess, be at old folks homes because older people voted more. This is bigotry. This kind of homophobia and racism is part and parcel of older vote.
PERKINS: Why don't you take to the African-American community. Take that to the Hispanic community.
COOPER: Do you feel that over time within a very short amount of time this issue, I mean each time this is getting closer and closer. Do you think the history and Barack Obama's part in it is in your favor?
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: You know who redefined marriage? Straight people redefined. Marriage used to be one man acquiring the property of another man, a daughter that became a wife. Straight people redefined marriage to be two individuals who commit to each other because of a bond of love. There can be children or no children, it could be a monogamous sexual relationship or not a monogamous sexual relationship. There can be a sexual relationship or not a sexual relationship. That's what marriage means now in our culture and they want to define it back to the patriarchal sexist institution it was.
PERKINS: Come on, man. You know that is not true.
COOPER: Tony, it does seem that young people though view this issue very differently than you do. Do you worry at all that you are just on the wrong side of history?
PERKINS: No. No, not at all. Anderson, what we're seeing actually among young people is they understand more than anybody what happens when you redefine marriage. Especially when you see young people who have grown up --
COOPER: The young people under-whelmingly voted against Proposition 8.
PERKINS: No.
SAVAGE: Yes, they did.
PERKINS: You are still saying -- it is not a majority.
SAVAGE: Yes. It is a majority. A majority of the young people voted against Prop 8.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I want Tony to answer the question and then I give you both a final thought. Tony.
PERKINS: Well, you can't get a word head wise.
SAVAGE: When you strip me of my rights when I interrupt you, who is really suffering here?
PERKINS: Look, the policy this country has adopted in the last 40 years which has minimized the importance of marriage; there is an understanding the purpose of public policy is to achieve a greater good. It's not designed to shape out narrow anomalies. It is for a broader reality.
The reality is that kids need a mom and a dad. That is what marriage is about. It is not about two moms, two dads, three dads, three moms. It is about a mom and a dad. And that's what public policy should promote
COOPER: Dan, your turn.
SAVAGE: That is not what marriage is about. People without children can get married. Marriage is not defined by the presence of children.
PERKINS: They can but that is not the purpose of government being involved regulating marriage.
SAVAGE: Individual liberties is the purpose of our constitution. For you to write individual liberties out of our political system --
PERKINS: Then you must be for polygamy. You must be for every other form of relationship.
SAVAGE: We can debate on marriage one at a time.
COOPER: We're going to have to leave it there. Tony you're your thoughts. And then Dan, your final thoughts.
SAVAGE: I hope Tony Perkins doesn't pray to Jesus with that mouth because he bears false witness against his gay and lesbian neighbors and that is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments.
PERKINS: And how would you suggest I do that, Dan? This is about public policy which is to promote the greater good and in the best environment the social science --
SAVAGE: Not at the expense of minority rights and individual liberties.
PERKINS: -- the social sciences show overwhelmingly that children do better with a mom and dad.
SAVAGE: That is a lie. Those are studies that are funded by bigots; more bigots to justify bigotry. The studies you cite have all the validity of tobacco institute studies telling us in the 70's and 80's that smoking was safe.
COOPER: We have to go. I'm sorry, we have got to go.
Dan Savage, I appreciate it. Tony Perkins, as well, thank you. And interesting discussion.
Still to come, President Bush met with Barack Obama on Monday. So when will Vice President Dick Cheney show Joe Biden around his future home? The answer ahead.
Also tonight, the Jonestown massacre 30 years later. New details and perhaps some answers about what really happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In a moment, a look back at the mass murder/suicide that left nearly a thousand dead. It still has the power to shock 30 years later; the Jonestown massacre.
First Erica Hill joins us with the "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, in Louisiana Ku Klux Klan documents were seized today from the home of Chuck Foster who authorities say shot and killed a woman during an initiation ceremony over the weekend. Police believe Cynthia Lynch have traveled from Oklahoma to join the group.
More now in the financial meltdown, Asian markets falling right now as we told you at the top of the show; continuing to follow it for you. This after a tough day on Wall Street. The Dow lost more than 400 points on the session today. It is the third straight day of decline totaling a $1 trillion of loss in just 72 hours. The Nasdaq and the S&P also ending down.
Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife Lynn will welcome Joe and Jill Biden tomorrow to the Naval Observatory, the official VP residence. And in fact, it's going to be the first home for the Bidens in Washington. Senator Biden has always commuted from Delaware -- Anderson.
COOPER: Erica, time now for our "Beat 360" winners; our daily challenge to viewers to come up with a caption better than the one any of us can come up with. Tonight's picture from London, Prince Charles meeting Robin Williams backstage at the Wimbledon Theater after a benefit performance for one of the Prince's charities. Our staff winner, none; no one on our staff could come up with anything that's even remotely original. It is sad but it's true.
HILL: Either that or it just wasn't fit for television.
COOPER: Gabe had one but it was pretty offensive so we didn't do it.
HILL: We didn't want it, yes.
COOPER: Our viewer winner is Dee from New York who won with this, "How did that chap get Camilla's hat?" Dee, nice job. Your "Beat 360" t-shirt is on the way. You can check out all the entries at ac360.com.
Up next, the search for the first dog; some options for the Obama family and yours if you want a pooch. There are some great options and some very cute dogs about to be shown. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM JONES, LEADER OF JONESTOWN: Die with respect. Die with a degree of dignity. There's nothing to death, it's just stepping over into another plane. Quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The chilling voice of the Reverend Jim Jones asking for the container of Kool-aid laced with arsenic and cyanide that hundreds of his followers actually drank until they died. Some took it willingly, many including children, however were held down forced to consume the poison.
Next Tuesday marks the 30th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy. And tomorrow night CNN's special correspondent Soledad O'Brien brings us untold stories from the survivors; new details of the massacre and the madman responsible for all of it.
Here is a preview. But first, we want to warn you, some of the images are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Tim Carter saw the airport gunman return.
JIM CARTER, JONESTOWN SURVIVOR: It was a tractor trailer that had come from the airstrip. Came up and stopped at the kitchen. These guys jumped out and said we got the Congressman.
O'BRIEN: Jim Jones told his 900 followers --
JONES: The Congressman's dead. Please get us the medication. It's simple. There's no convulsions. It is just simple.
O'BRIEN: A third of all the dead were children murdered at Jim Jones' command; racked with convulsions, a painful death.
JONES: Die with a degree of dignity, lay down your life with dignity, don't lay down with tears and agony.
O'BRIEN: Carter saw his one-year-old son, Malcolm, in the arms of his wife, Gloria.
CARTER: Malcolm was dead. His little lips covered with foam which is what happens with arsenic and cyanide is it foams at the mouth. I put my arms around Gloria as she was holding Malcolm and just kept on sobbing I love you so much. I love you so much. I held Gloria until she died.
O'BRIEN: Jim Jones did not drink the cyanide. When almost everyone else was dead, Jones was shot in the head, probably by a trusted aide.
CARTER: I did notice Jones' body on the stage with a bullet hole in the side of his head. I remember thinking the son of a -- didn't even die the way everybody else died.
O'BRIEN: Carter lived because he was sent away on a final errand. He came close to shooting himself that night.
CARTER: I knew that I would never get the sounds and the smells and the sights of Jonestown out of my mind ever again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It is so stunning to see those images. The memories are still so strong. What surprised you most about it?
O'BRIEN: I think learning some of the details about how much Jim Jones really prepared even before he brought his followers out of California and into the settlement in Guyana, South America. He was stock piling cyanide.
COOPER: Really?
O'BRIEN: Yes.
COOPER: I didn't know that.
O'BRIEN: They had a jeweler's license in this settlement and under the terms of the jeweler's license in Guyana they could bring in a certain amount of cyanide every month. So even before people landed in Guyana he was collecting cyanide and also asking his medical assistants and professionals how much would you have to give? Should we do tests on animals first?
COOPER: And you know, turning out a survivor, I mean, how does someone survive that? How do you move on when your family's dead; all the people you were with in this religious group that you believed in? It's got to be --
O'BRIEN: They don't. Many of the survivors we spoke to are -- they're shells. They have battled drug problems and alcoholism. They are struggling to this day.
One of the women we go back with was 12 years old and ran into the jungle. Her mother was shot on the tarmac. To see how difficult her life has been.
This picture there, that's a mother who does not want to let her child go and so the whole family stays behind. They all died at Jonestown because she doesn't want to leave.
And all this on tape, of course, because an NBC crew was there shooting it 30 years ago.
COOPER: Right.
O'BRIEN: And of course the NBC correspondent was killed, Don Harris was killed in the shooting on the tarmac at Port Kaituma.
COOPER: How any parent could do that to their child?
O'BRIEN: Jim Jones held drills; they called them "White Nights" that he would say you have to be prepared to kill your children. Are you prepared to kill your children? One of the survivors we spoke who's 75 years old. At one point he said, "No, I'm not." No one else around him would stand up and say that. He was punished for that. So he raised his hand when Congressman Ryan came. I want to go. My family wants to go. He lost his wife on that tarmac. She was shot; her head literally blown off.
COOPER: Unbelievable.
O'BRIEN: Horrible, horrible. And to this day, he lives with tremendous guilt about it. He is 75 and lives with terrible guilt.
COOPER: It is fascinating. Soledad thanks. The special "Escape from Jonestown" is tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern followed by a special later edition of this program at 11:00 p.m. Eastern. It is a two-hour special. Well worth it. Soledad thanks.
John McCain's first interview since losing the election; see what he told Jay Leno. It's our "Shot of the Day."
And also tonight, could this little guy be the perfect answer to the Obama's family dog dilemma? He is a shelter dog, his name is Lowell. He's obviously adorable but is he also hypoallergenic? That's the tricky part. Erica Hill digs deeper, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're looking at CNN I-report pictures of puppies. How cute are these puppies? Could one of them move into the White House?
A lot of people think they have the perfect pet for President-elect Barack Obama and his family. He promised his daughters a dog, possibly from a shelter, but it also has to be a hypoallergenic breed because of Malia's allergies.
There are thousands of dogs to choose from. Many need a home and it doesn't have to be the White House. 360's Erica Hill has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sasha and Malia, I love you both more than you can imagine. And you have earned the new puppy that is coming with us to the White House.
HILL: Words that united the country behind a new cause, the First Dog. And thrust pooches like these into the spotlight after the president-elect mentioned the Obama's preference would be a shelter dog.
SANDRA DEFEO, HUMANE SOCIETY OF NEW YORK: I just think adopting is the most rewarding experience you can do. You are saving a life.
HILL: And there are plenty of animals that need that love. Between six million and eight million dogs and cats enter a shelter every year. But the Obamas need to save a dog that is hypoallergenic because their ten-year-old daughter Malia has allergies.
While there is no such thing as a truly hypoallergenic dog, there are certain breeds which are better for people with allergies, including Toby here who is a terrier mix. Or the new First Family could opt for this pup; a Peruvian hairless. They've already been offered one.
The American Kennel Club recommends poodles; Shnauzers, and soft- hooded wheaten terriers, Yorkies like Chula are also easier for allergy sufferers.
Once you found the breed that works for your family, though, don't think a shelter is out.
It is not just mixed breed puppies that you can find or even older dogs that you'll find at the shelter because Lowell here who's eight weeks is a pure bred lab.
DEFEO: Yes, he's as pure bred lab who has American kennel club papers.
HILL: Defeo recommends the Obamas wait to adopt the dog until they are settled in Washington. When they do get to the White House, get out of the vacuum.
DEFE: Make sure the house is very clean from the previous dog that's been living there. Because you might mistakenly think that you are allergic to the dog you've just brought in when in fact, it's the dander that's left behind from the dog that was just there.
HILL: But the most important thing to look for in a dog, one that fits your family.
DEFEO: You want to make a love match when you adopt a dog. This is a commitment to the life time of the animal. We want to make sure that you've thought about it and that you are ready for the whole process.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Erica joins us with Lowell. That dog is so adorable.
HILL: He is beautiful. He's really cute. He is eight weeks old. Poor guy. I think he may have had it.
He's eight weeks old, he's a pure bred. He does have -- as you heard her say -- he gives kisses -- in the story there, he came with papers. He actually arrived at the shelter on Saturday and I think they have had multiple applications since. But you can't just walk out of there with a dog.
COOPER: He is not hypoallergenic. He is Labrador.
HILL: He's not because he's a lab.
COOPER: But they make such great pets.
HILL: They do. They're very sweet. They do stay puppies for a long time. Something you need to consider if you are going to get a lab.
There are so many dogs out there that need homes and so many available at shelters that could easily fit the bill for the Obamas or many other families across the country.
Hi, buddy. You are kind of done with me. Aren't you? You're kind of done. Lady, I have had it.
COOPER: Maybe he smells Jack.
HILL: He might smell Jake, that might be it.
We also want to introduce you to another --
COOPER: I was talking about Jack.
HILL: I thought you thought his name was Jim. We also have another dog we want to introduce you to that one of our I-reporters sent because so many of our I-reporters have sent in ideas for the Obamas and for other folks and dogs to adopt but --
This is Hounderson Cooper. He watches hurricane coverage. He was sent into us by a family who are avid CNN viewers. I think I need to bring Lowell back.
COOPER: I see the resemblance.
HILL: He apparently didn't win the local pet coat costume contest but he won in our hearts, I think.
COOPER: He actually did. Well thanks for bringing in Lowell.
If you have suggestions for the first dog, go to ac360.com and submit an I-report. We will keep checking on your suggestions. We'll show some of them throughout the next couple of weeks.
Up next, helping strangers in need. How one man is helping people hundreds walk again and do other things they never thought possible. Meet one of our top CNN heroes when "360" continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight we continue to introduce you to our top ten CNN heroes; only one will be named CNN's Hero of the Year and you can decide who by voting for your favorite. We'll tell you how to cast your vote in a moment.
But first, here's one of the top ten. David Puckett; he is changing the lives of hundreds of people in Mexico. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Heroes.
DAVID PUCKETT, FINALIST, CNN HERO OF THE YEAR: Here in southeastern Mexico where medical care is poor it is almost impossible to overcome an amputation. They don't have the opportunity to get out much less get accepted.
The very first time I came to Mexico it was stamped on my heart, someday you are going to make a difference here. When I finally got into the field of orthodics (ph) and prosthetics, aha, now I know what I can do.
I'm David Puckett and I bring artificial limbs and orthopedic braces for those in need to Mexico.
There is always a plethora of donations of artificial limbs and orthopedic braces. We take them castes into southeastern Mexico and make new limbs and braces from the components that we've recycled.
Delivering a limb or brace is just the beginning because we have to come back to make sure that they have what they need. When we help one person it actually affects the entire community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My life was sad before because I had to crawl on the ground. He lifted me up to where I am today.
PUCKETT: I didn't really realize how much sacrifice it was going to be, but you know what, where there is more sacrifice there is more blessing.
Vote now at cnn.com/heroes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: You've only got a week left to vote; the Website again, cnn.com/heroes. And join me on Thanksgiving night right here on CNN when all the heroes will be honored in an all-star tribute.
That does it for this edition of "360." Thanks for watching.
"Larry King" starts right now. I'll see you tomorrow night.
