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Nancy Grace
Paula Abdul Fan Found Dead Outside Star`s Home
Aired November 12, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, "American Idol" judge, superstar, song and dance phenomenon Paula Abdul rocked by tragedy. An "American Idol" contestant obsessed with "Idol" judge Paula Abdul is dead, the body found just yards from Abdul`s upscale home LA, the female contestant reportedly intensely stalking Abdul for months.
Tonight, what happened? What does Abdul know? And why was the female stalker still allowed near Paula Abdul even after LAPD alerted? Tonight, the police investigation, an "American Idol" tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being on "American Idol" has really flipped my world upside-down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body of a former "American Idol" contestant was found just outside the home of "Idol" judge Paula Abdul. Police have confirmed that the woman was found dead inside her car just yards away from Abdul`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman had been a contestant on "American Idol" in two different cities. She even had pictures of Paula Abdul on her rear-view mirror, a license plate that read ABL LV, "Abdul love." Police say she may have been obsessed with the "Idol" judge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see this, actually, in romantic relationships when you have an obsessed person and a stalker. This young woman probably did not see herself as a fan, she saw herself as a loyal, committed friend of Paula who`s followed her for years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a lot of amazing -- like, moving forward, great, great changes in this show and how we are connecting with the contestants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the sudden disappearance of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway, missing off her high school senior trip, Aruba. Aruban police can`t or won`t make a case against judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot in the disappearance of Holloway even after a Dutch crime reporter takes months of high-tech secret surveillance proving what happened the night the Alabama beauty vanished. Aruban courts then let Van Der Sloot walk free.
But tonight, the Holloway murder investigation reignites with a new witness emerging that IDs Van Der Sloot the night Holloway vanishes. Also reportedly at the scene, Van Der Sloot`s daddy, the judge. This new witness has passed two independent U.S. polygraphs. This after grainy video and audiotape emerges that may land Van Der Sloot behind bars. He is busted on tape, preying on young women to lure them into the sex trade, reportedly raking in $13,000 per female recruit.
Tonight, Van Der Sloot in hiding, on the run, using an alias. Unconfirmed as we go to air, reports police may have just caught up with Van Der Sloot on an island of the coast of Thailand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: OK. But look what you have to do for that. For here, you have to shake your ass. That`s all you have to do. If I could shake my ass for $15,000, I would shake my ass for $15,000.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like dancing.
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: And he offering you $15,000 to dance. And I understand you tell me that you have school you have to finish. I understand. And you can tell me, OK, after your school, will we talk about it again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And how long I have to dance for, one hour, two hours?
VAN DER SLOOT: No, like, 10 hour a day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! That`s too much!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me -- $15,000 is nothing for me.
VAN DER SLOOT: OK, $15,000 is nothing for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. Not much.
VAN DER SLOOT: OK. Like, listen, baby, I`m from Holland and they from Holland also. And I go to the Holland embassy already and I look and for to get the paper to give to you right away. That`s not a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
VAN DER SLOOT: So for -- go for, like, three months or something is very easy. It`s very easy. But for to get work permit, like, one year or two years, is more hard. And Holland very, very different than Bangkok. Holland is also very nice and very peaceful.
The important thing is they want to do it good also. You don`t want to do it like paperwork good, everything in order, everything good. That`s important for them also for the name and cannot do like wrong, just like no, no, no. They want to do it good. Is real job is good also.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think you can get a lot of lady to go over there if you go to the government for looking people to find a job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" judge, superstar song and dance phenomenon Paula Abdul rocked by tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did a fan have a deadly obsession with Paula Abdul?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Los Angeles police made a shocking discovery last night, just outside the home of "American Idol" judge Paula Abdul, the body of a former "Idol" contestant. The 30-year-old woman was pronounced dead on scene after being found inside her own car just yards from Abdul`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This woman`s car was parked very close to Paula`s house. And I mean, little things, like Paula`s picture hanging in her car, the fact that, you know, she went to two different cities -- they`re all indicative that she was an obsessed fan. She had sort of an unrealistic thought process about Paula.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard even to say who`s top (INAUDIBLE) to be honest with you, because someone -- you think someone`s really great, and then you go, Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We notice she tried out in two cities. She went to San Francisco and she went to Austin. She sang "Proud Mary." And she did not make the top 24. They did feature the drawings that she had done of Paula on the show.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paula was probably nice to her. Paula is so sweet, and Paula saw something in me and Paula believes in me, and it probably just fueled the fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "American Idol" superstar Paula Abdul rocked by tragedy. Straight out to senior editor with "In Touch Weekly" Tom O`Neil. He is standing by at Abdul`s home. Tom, what happened?
PAUL O`NEIL, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, Nancy, for the past few days,, neighbors have been telling police that there was this car, this suspicious car in the neighborhood about 20 feet that direction, where now all you see is some broken glass on the pavement where police broke in to fetch the body at 6:00 o`clock last night. It seems that she had been parked here in the mornings. As of yesterday at 3:00 o`clock, her parents were very concerned about her and called police and said, Where is she? She had such a history of stalking Paula Abdul, they knew to come here. And at 6:00 o`clock last night...
GRACE: OK, Tom...
O`NEIL: ... she was found -- not just found dead, but in a shrine to her idol.
GRACE: OK. What do you mean by a shrine to her idol?
O`NEIL: Well, the details you were saying earlier in this segment in the taped portion -- the car has a license plate with the letters ABL LV, meaning "Abdul love." There was a picture of Paula hanging from the rear- view mirror. This was obviously a really infatuated fan.
GRACE: When you say there was such a history of the intense stalking, what do you mean by that?
O`NEIL: Well, police said this afternoon that there were repeated incidents over several years, and that the last incident they had in terms of a run-in with her and the law was in July.
GRACE: Well, you know, this same -- well, a similar thing happened with Selena, and Selena ends up dead. Tell me, you say that she was found at what time outside the home?
O`NEIL: At 6:00 o`clock last night. She was last seen by her family at 11:00 o`clock on Monday night. They reported her missing at 3:00 yesterday. She lived up here in Ventura County, just north of Los Angeles, so there was a -- apparently, it took three hours for the police to follow up on the requests of -- to locate her, and as I said, they knew where to look.
GRACE: OK, everybody. Take a look at the fan on "Idol."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (SINGING): And we`re rolling, rolling, rolling on a river, said we`re rolling, rolling, rolling on a river...
SIMON COWELL, JUDGE: There is a similarity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, Cowell, stop it. (DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I thought you meant me. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well (DELETED) -- speechless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really like Paula Abdul a lot. She`s really cool. I`m, like, a really big fan, and I make life-size drawings of Paula. I`ve been drawing ever since I was a little kid, and my first drawing was of Paula Abdul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A clip of Paula Abdul`s fan from Fox show "American Idol," this intense stalker found dead just yards from the "American Idol" judge`s home.
Straight back out to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly," standing right outside Abdul`s home. Do we know the cause of death yet?
O`NEIL: The police are speculating. They are saying that they believe it was an overdose of drugs, presumably pills, and that it was a suicide. But neither of these are confirmed, Nancy. We won`t know until toxicology reports come back in a few weeks.
GRACE: Did Paula Abdul know the woman was parked outside her house?
O`NEIL: That`s a very good question. She was aware of the stalking problem, and the only time they ever met face to face during that "Idol" audition that you just showed the tape of. She never had a restraining order against this woman. And today, this afternoon, E on line is making reports that the alleged stalker was sending threatening notes to Paula and sending packages...
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true that...
O`NEIL: ... and trying to reach her.
GRACE: ... the LAPD knew about it, Tom O`Neil? Didn`t the LAPD know the car was there at all times of the day and night?
O`NEIL: Yes. They didn`t know that the car was there at that specific time, but they had been dealing with this situation for an ongoing basis for years.
GRACE: I just don`t understand how somebody can get that close to Paula Abdul. To Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing," Susan, how does Abdul and others do it, when you look out the window and there`s the car of the stalker sitting right in front of your house?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, we would assume that she was very concerned and that her security people should have been watching. It seemed on the tape that she was very nice to the woman and understood that maybe she had some emotional problems. In order to...
GRACE: Emotional problems? Putting it lightly, Susan Lipkins.
LIPKINS: In order to kill yourself, you`re really in a very extreme state, either a bipolar kind of disorder, clearly obsessive-compulsive, and probably many other things.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I`ve learned to kind of roll with the punches here and let it just kind of roll off my shoulders. And I kind of teach the contestants to do the same thing. You know, you can`t let -- you can`t believe the good, can`t believe the bad, you have to just believe in yourself and stay true to who you are and know that when you hit that center spot on that stage every night to just, you know, make magic happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would have never thought that this would be happening, but it is. It`s exciting. It`s been, like, this song, "Dance Like There`s No Tomorrow," has not gone away. It`s like straying around, and it`s kind of, like, the metaphor of my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I hear the song on the radio, I get excited. And I get more excited if I`m driving and I see someone else is listening to the same station and they`re dancing in their car. It gets me so excited. I feel like a little kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Celebrity stalkers pose a real threat to the famous, with some obsessed fans even turning deadly. One of the most famous, John David Chapman, who shot and killed Beatles founding member John Lennon outside his New York apartment building. Another violent stalker, John Hinckley, Jr., obsessed with Academy Award-winning actress Jody Foster. He attempted to assassinate President Ronald Reagan to impress Foster.
Stalkers also try different strategies. Robert Dewey Hoskins (ph) threatened to cut music icon Madonna`s throat from ear to ear. Movie star Brad Pitt was granted a restraining order against Athena Marie Rolando (ph), who broke into his home. And today, a former "American Idol" contestant believed to have stalked "Idol" judge Paula Abdul was found dead inside her car near the pop star`s home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just yards from Abdul`s home, apparently, her car parked outside Abdul`s home for some time. We are taking your calls live. And joining us at the scene, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly" Tom O`Neil.
Out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. You know, I don`t understand how somebody can interject theirselves into a star`s life. It`s like we just love you to death at our house. And if we lived next door to you, we wouldn`t see you, except for if you were walking through your yard, and we sure wouldn`t tell anybody where you lived.
GRACE: You know, Sheeba, it doesn`t make sense to me, either. Let me go back to the shrink, Susan Lipkins. Dr. Lipkins, the degree of familiarity -- explain that to me.
LIPKINS: Well, the person is operating out of reality. You know, it`s very hard for us to understand because we`re rational. And you know, you may like somebody or even have a crush on them, but you know that you really won`t have a relationship. People like this, these stalkers, are operating in their own reality, and it is not the one that you and I know about.
GRACE: To producer/reporter with KNX radio 1070 Jo Kwon. Jo, what more can you tell us?
JO KWON, KNX RADIO 1070: Well, there was a prior incident in June, where the LAPD tipped off the Ventura County sheriffs to go check on her because they were tipped that she may be in risk of self-harm. And they didn`t find her at her home, and they did find her, though, and get her some mental help. So there had been some previous issues with that.
GRACE: Joining me right now exclusively tonight, Julia Getchell. She is the cousin of the deceased Abdul fan found dead just yards from Abdul`s home. Ms. Getchell, thank you for being with us.
JULIA GETCHELL, COUSIN OF DECEASED ABDUL FAN: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: I understand her car was a shrine to Paula Abdul. I can only imagine what her home was like.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really couldn`t tell you that for sure because I`ve never been to her home.
GETCHELL: What can you tell me about her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she was a very good person, kind, caring, and definitely not a stalker.
GRACE: Then why do you believe she was parked outside Abdul`s home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea, to tell you the truth. I would like to know myself.
GRACE: Well, you know, police had been alerted to the fact that your cousin was showing up in Abdul`s neighborhood consistently at all hours of the day and night. You wouldn`t call that stalking?
GETCHELL: I have no idea what she had been doing.
GRACE: What was she like growing up?
GETCHELL: She was quiet, kept to herself, very jokable (ph), laughing all the time.
GRACE: When was the last time you spoke to her?
GETCHELL: It was Tuesday night between 8:30 -- I mean, 7:30 and 8:30 PM.
GRACE: And what were her spirits?
GETCHELL: She was in very good spirits.
GRACE: Did you know that she was obsessed with Paula Abdul?
GETCHELL: No, I did not.
GRACE: Well, you know, her car tag says "Abdul love."
GETCHELL: I had no idea it said that.
GRACE: So you state that she was quiet as a child?
GETCHELL: Yes. And she was very outgoing as she got older.
GRACE: What do you mean by that? What was she like through school?
GETCHELL: I didn`t see her when she went to school. She went to Madison High.
GRACE: Yes. Was she employed?
GETCHELL: Yes, she worked at Tim Horton`s (ph).
GRACE: What is that?
GETCHELL: It`s a doughnut shop and coffee shop.
GRACE: Where?
GETCHELL: I think in Skowhegan (ph).
GRACE: Take a look at other superstars, celebrities, that have been stalked, sometimes fatally. Of course, John Lennon and Mark David Chapman. Sandra Bullock, Marsha Diane Valentine (ph), another female stalker stalking a female superstar. Uma Thurman stalked by Jack Jordan (ph). Nicole Kidman, Matthew Hooker (ph). Catherine Zeta Jones, Donnette Knight (ph). Jody Foster, John Hinckley -- what an idiot. Madonna, Robert Dewey Hoskins. David Letterman, Margaret Ray. Brad Pitt, as you know, Athena Rolando. Rebecca Shaeffer (ph), now dead, Robert Bardo (ph). Selena, Yolanda Saldivar (ph). Jennifer Aniston, David Hesterby (ph).
You know, the list goes on and on and on. Let`s talk about stalking law. To Rhonda Saunders, prosecutor and author of "Whisper of Fear." Rhonda, what can you tell us about stalking laws?
I think I`ve got Rhonda with me. Rhonda?
RHONDA SAUNDERS, PROSECUTOR: Hello? Can you hear me?
GRACE: Yes. Tell me about stalking laws in LA.
SAUNDERS: In California, because there are statewide stalking laws, you need three elements. You need repeated following or harassment, which sounds like that occurred. But you also need a credible threat against the safety of the victim or the victim`s family. And this can be direct or indirect.
But the most important element is that we have to show that the stalker wanted to place the victim in fear for their safety and that the victim actually was in fear. So if you have an uncooperative victim who is being stalked but says, You know, I`m not really afraid, I really don`t want to go to court, there really isn`t a whole lot that we can do about it.
GRACE: With me Rhonda Saunders. She is an expert in the stalking law there in California. She`s a prosecutor and author of "Whisper of Fear." Rhonda, again, thank you for being with us. She`s joining us outside the Abdul home. Rhonda, you say that one of the elements is the stalker intends to put the victim in fear. Well, what if the stalker thinks they`re the victim`s best friend and just shows up at their house all the time?
SAUNDERS: Well, this was a classic case of what we call erotomania, and it`s a delusional disorder where a stalker or a person believes that there is a relationship between them and the celebrity. However, we`ve seen these go bad. When the celebrity doesn`t pay any attention to the person, they feel slighted. They become enraged. And in those cases, somebody can get hurt, injured or wind up dead. In this particular case...
GRACE: And Rhonda, how unusual is it that you have a female stalking a female?
SAUNDERS: I`ve had several cases, and they`re just as bad, just as terrifying as the, quote, "ordinary" case of a man stalking a woman or vice versa. And we see cases, for example, of this type of conduct. I had one case of a woman stalking another woman, and she was living in a crawlspace under the victim`s house for six months.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Published reports say the victim had an unnatural obsession with Abdul, and one member (ph) of Abdul told TMZ.com that the woman had been outside the home many times before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re doing tons of interviews all day. They`re doing photo shoots. That sounds, Oh, fun. But they`ve got in the back of their mind, they have songs to learn. They choreography to learn to do the numbers. And they have the mentoring. And they have to shoot (INAUDIBLE) commercials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An "American Idol" tragedy, superstar Paula Abdul, singing and dancing phenomenon, the judge on "American Idol," death just yards from her home, an extreme stalker found dead in her car, female-on-female stalking, highly unusual.
Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know, there had been reports earlier today that the LAPD threat assessment unit had an active ongoing investigation against this woman, but they, in fact, did not. A source with the LAPD told me today that law enforcement LAPD had been out to the house a number of times, but apparently, there was no threat made, so there was no criminality involved. And that`s why they didn`t want to open a case.
GRACE: I tell you, if I look out the window and I see a car parked there every day until the very early morning hours, to me, that`s a threat, Mike Brooks.
BROOKS: Well, they -- apparently, they didn`t think so.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We know that she tried out in two cities. She went to San Francisco and she went to Austin. She sang "Proud Mary," and she did not make the top 24.
They did feature the drawings that she had done of Paula on the show. And Simon was a little rough on her. He talked about the fact that she had braces on and was snarky. He said, you know, how do you get through metal detectors with those braces?
PAUL ABDUL, SINGER, "AMERICAN IDOL" JUDGE: You know, I`ve learned to kind of -- kind of roll with the punches here, and let it just kind of roll off my shoulders. And I kind of teach the contestants to do the same thing.
You know, you can`t let -- you can`t leave the good, you can`t leave the bad, you have to just believe in yourself, and stay true to who you are, and know that when you hit that center spot in that stage every night, to just, you know, make magic happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: "American Idol" superstar, judge, Paula Abdul, rocked by tragedy. A dead body found just outside her home, apparently an intense female stalker, who has been stalking Abdul for some time. It is yet to be made clear what, if anything, Abdul knew about the death, how long the woman had been there, the circumstances, or even the cause of death.
We are taking your calls live.
And standing by there at the home, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly" Tom O`Neill. Also with us tonight, a very special guest, I`m sure you will recognize her, Andrea Evans, from "One Life to Live," played Tina Clayton, and stalking victim.
Miss Evans, thank you for being with us.
ANDREA EVANS, ACTRESS, "ONE LIFE TO LIVE," STALKING VICTIM: Well, thank you for having me.
GRACE: I`m sure that you are used to having legions of fans. Tell me about your stalking experience.
EVANS: Well, my stalking experience happened -- started back in the late `80s when I was on "One Life to Live." And a male fan saw me and became obsessed with me. Originally started writing to me. I -- and then showed up at the studio.
I didn`t make the connection that he was the same person who had been writing to me. He was thrown out. And then the very next day, he appeared at the studio. And when I wasn`t there, he slashed his wrists on the front step and was taken to the emergency room, where he used my name as next of kin.
And from there, it really went down hill.
GRACE: It went down from there? That`s pretty low.
EVANS: Yes, it is pretty low. And the situation made my life very miserable for a long time, eight to 10 years. But I`m happy to say I`ve got my life back.
GRACE: Eight to 10 years?
EVANS: Yes, for me to recover from the situation. The situation was most acute for about two to three years. And then it got so difficult for me to live in New York where I was living that I -- I left my job, which I did not want to leave, on "One Life to Live," and moved, and then spent many years trying to get my life back together, which I am happy to say I have done.
GRACE: Tell me, Andrea, what would he say in the letters?
EVANS: A lot of his letters were written in blood. They had swastikas on them, just things like death to the blonde whore, how do you want to die? Question like this. He was very much trying to take control of my life and my death, apparently.
GRACE: She actually quit her job, everyone, because of this stalker. You are seeing video of her in an ABC`s "One Life to Live," extremely popular during her time on "One Life to Live."
With us tonight, Andrea Evans. I`m sure that you can empathize with Paula Abdul at this time.
EVANS: Oh, absolutely. That`s why I wanted to be here. I mean, as somebody who has gone through a similar kind of experience, my heart goes out to Miss Abdul and her family, and also to the family of this young woman for how upsetting must it be. As a mother, I know if this were my daughter, I would be incredibly upset.
GRACE: I know that in May, "People" magazine did a profile on you, and what you went through. I can`t, can`t imagine making the decision to leave your home and leave your job, again, you are extremely popular on "One Life," because of a stalker.
EVANS: Well, it -- the situation became so bad. And at that time, there were no laws. I`m very happy to think that my situation helped bring about the stalking laws that are now in place.
But the laws at the time gave me no -- no way to fight back. Unless he physically harmed me, I could not have him incarcerated. He was mentally incompetent to stand trial.
GRACE: You know you brought up an issue about the laws being so weak.
Everyone, we are taking your calls.
There at the scene, Tom O`Neill with "In Touch Weekly," and joining us tonight from "One Life to Live," playing Tina Clayton, I`m sure you all recognize Andrea Evans.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.
Renee, I`ve handled many stalking cases and the laws not only are weak, but you get a judge, typically a male -- no offense, gentlemen -- but typically a male. Hey, he just called you on the phone. Don`t answer the phone. He just drove by -- he just stopped by. It didn`t hurt you.
It`s a very blase attitude towards stalking. Don`t even try to tell me you have not seen it, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is, Nancy, because in the hierarchy of crimes, it seems just on its face as not very awful.
GRACE: Oh really? Tell that to Selena. Oh, she`s dead.
ROCKWELL: That`s right. But, but, Nancy, you will agree that it is very hard to get a conviction for misdemeanor stalking because it takes so much repeated, unwanted harassing activity, plus it takes that victim taking that extra step.
GRACE: Well.
ROCKWELL: . which is sometimes too much trouble.
GRACE: You`re right.
Alan Ripka, the problem is the law and the judges that interpret that law.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if I`d say that.
GRACE: Oh, really? What would you say, Ripka?
RIPKA: Well, you have to look at the behavior, each and every individual. There is a big difference between admiring someone and stalking somebody. There`s no law against sitting in your car, on the street, as long as you`re not trespassing, and waiting for someone to come out of their home, or watching them walk down the street.
GRACE: So you can do what?
RIPKA: You can do whatever you want in life, as long as you don`t have a threat of violence against them.
GRACE: See, that`s just the kind of attitude that winds up with people like Selena and John Lennon dead. Just that attitude, Allan Ripka. I guess that`s what you tell the judges when you defend stalkers.
RIPKA: Well, Nancy, you mean to tell me if someone is watching you walk out your house, maybe we should put them behind bars.
GRACE: No.
RIPKA: . in case they`re a psycho who`s going to kill somebody?
GRACE: But if somebody is there every day, at all hours of the day and night, with a mental history, you`re darn right, they need to be put behind bars, and maybe Selena and John Lennon would still be alive today, if the stalking laws had been taken seriously, Alan Ripka.
RIPKA: Well, in that case, you have to put everyone behind bars, including the hundreds of thousands of cases you never hear about where someone never means any harm to protect from the true psychos.
GRACE: Absolutely not true. I said people that repeatedly show up at your home, at your place of business. You know what, I`m going to let Andrea Evans respond to this.
Everyone, Andrea Evans, famous actress off "One Life to Live," played Tina Clayton, stalking victim.
What do you have to say to lawyers like Alan Ripka?
EVANS: Well, I agree with you. If there is someone outside your house who has threatened you, who is continually showing themselves there in front of you, this has to be taken care of this.
This is not the same thing as somebody just watching you walk down the street. That`s --that`s making very light of a very serious situation.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, of Broward County, and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, the female stalker was found dead outside Abdul`s home, yards from her home. How do you determine cause of death?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, obviously, there is going to be an examination of the body to find whether there is any trauma. And my understanding is there was no trauma, apparently, in this case. That`s why the police believe that it`s a suicide.
I don`t think that`s a reliable belief, there is no suicide note. That`s a young person, so it`s very likely that maybe she died of drugs or it`s also possible that she died of natural causes. But because she is young, the likelihood of her dying from natural causes is rather low.
So I will have to wait for the results of the autopsies to see if she has any natural disease and the results of the chemical analysis or the toxicology.
GRACE: To Toni in Pennsylvania, hi, Toni.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I have a comment. It`s very nice what you do. We appreciate what you do. My mother and I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And don`t ever, ever give it up. And you have a beautiful family.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome.
My question is, the L.A. police knew about this, Paula Abdul knew about this. And they`re saying that they can`t do anything because she was not threatened. So, what, this lady has to be killed before they do something?
GRACE: What about that, Alan Ripka?
RIPKA: When you say she has to be killed before doing something, if the woman was sitting in her car, and she did nothing to.
GRACE: Oh Ripka.
RIPKA: If she did nothing to her -- Nancy, what would you like them to do? Should they have taken her out of her car? Maybe a mental health evaluation, I agree on that if they had reason to believe that. But you can`t lock up people.
GRACE: You know what, Ripka, I`ll come back to you after the break. Yes, you can lock up people. Yes, that`s what the jails are for, that`s what the keys are for.
RIPKA: When they commit crimes.
GRACE: . to throw them away.
RIPKA: When they commit crimes.
GRACE: But quickly, everybody, we need your thoughts and prayers for veteran defense attorney Sandy Schiff. Her leukemia is back and she is fighting the fight. Please, take a moment to send out a thought or a prayer for Sandy Schiff.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like dancing.
VAN DER SLOOT: And he offering you 15,000 baht to dance. And I understand you tell me that you have school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
VAN DER SLOOT: You have to finish. I understand. And you can tell me OK, after your school we talk about again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
VAN DER SLOOT: But.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how long I have to dance for? One hour, two hour?
VAN DER SLOOT: No. Like 10 hour a day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s too much.
VAN DER SLOOT: No, no, no. I don`t know. I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN DER SLOOT: From five to ten. Yes, from 5:00 in the afternoon to 5:00 in the morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that is long.
VAN DER SLOOT: That`s a lot, yes, I know. But it`s not dance the whole time. You take break. You talk to the guys, you know, make them feel good. Give them drink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I can hardly even look at it.
(INAUDIBLE) Joran Van Der Sloot, caught in the act, reportedly, trying to ensnare young college students to become hookers. Of course, they thought they were going to be dancers and models.
To Art Harris, investigative journalist, unconfirmed reports as we go to air, that police have finally tracked down Joran Van Der Sloot. Yes, no.
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, COVERING STORY: That`s right, Nancy, on a small island off the coast of Thailand. A policeman who actually had his photon on his mobile phone spotted him and he`s now reportedly under arrest for -- you know, for this investigation.
I spoke to the Thai embassy today, Nancy, and if this is true, under Thai sex trafficking laws passed this June, he could face stiff prison term and a big fine.
GRACE: Oh boohoo.
Let`s go back to the lawyers, now joining me, along with Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Alan Ripla, New York, international law attorney, Michael Griffith in New York.
Michael Griffith, you`re back for more.
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY. CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I love being here seeing you again.
GRACE: So what about this? Why is he hiding out in Ko Samui?
GRIFFITH: Well, you know, Nancy, after seeing this video again, you know, I believe there`s been a double scam here.
GRACE: Let me guess.
GRIFFITH: Listen to this.
GRACE: Van Der Sloot is the victim?
GRIFFITH: No, listen to this.
GRACE: Can you make it brief?
GRIFFITH: Nowhere has -- prostitution been mentioned on this video or in the transcript. Yesterday, the spokesperson said that prostitution was mentioned. It was mentioned, it would have been on your video.
I believe what happened was, Van De Vries, the reporter, took a film crew over there, spent thousands of dollars, was probably paid for to do a sting, they got a hotel, and no prostitution was mentioned. And now they`re pandering to the world that there was prostitution.
GRACE: So what is he doing trying to pay these college students $428 to get papers to go to the Netherlands?
GRIFFITH: First of all, there were no papers.
GRACE: We just heard him say that. What was he talking about, Griffith?
GRIFFITH: To dance. He`s a self-styled dance promoter, obviously.
GRACE: OK, you know what, I`m glad you said that.
GRIFFITH: He has nothing to do with prostitution.
GRACE: I`m going to save that clip for your (INAUDIBLE).
I want to go to Peter Schouten, spokesperson for De Vries. It is on the video, he is caught talking about prostitution, correct?
PETER SCHOUTEN, SPOKESMAN FOR PETER DE VRIES, EXECUTED STING OPERATION: Yes, hi, Nancy, that`s correct. And he has (INAUDIBLE), he represented himself clearly as a pimp. Michael is totally wrong.
Joran initiated this crime himself. He produced the girls, he made the deal, he took the money. He did human trafficking with the intent to exploit the girls, and that carries a maximum of eight years in jail.
GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer on this story -- Rupa, the offshoot of all of this is it has reignited the investigation into Natalee Hallow way`s death. Explain.
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. Basically, the Aruban authorities -- I was on the phone with Hans Moss with yesterday, and essentially, De Vries, his original tape which was aired last year, at the end of last year, reignited the case. They were about to close the case last December.
Now let me just make this clear. They weren`t going to close the investigation in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. They were only going to close the investigation against Van Der Sloot.
GRACE: The new witness, the new witness, the new witness. Tell me.
MIKKILINENI: So they have a new witness that`s come out, and apparently this guy came forward before, but authorities didn`t take him seriously. They didn`t think he was credible. Now this witness was given polygraph tests, two polygraph tests that he did pass, and he says that the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared, he saw somebody looking like Joran Van Der Sloot and he does say that he recognizes Joran Van Der Sloot later on in the upcoming days.
GRACE: You know what, I`m interested, Rupa, that you said he`s passed two polygraphs.
Art Harris, what exactly does he say he saw the night Natalee went missing?
HARRIS: Two questions. He says that he saw Joran Van Der Sloot walking down a road at the time that Natalee was reportedly disappeared. Muddy, from the waist down, and later driving back in a red jeep, with a man he later recognized as Paul as his father.
GRACE: To Dave Holloway, joining us tonight exclusively. This is Natalee`s father. What do you make of this witness?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: You know, we knew about the witness probably eight or nine months ago. He identified himself to the boat captain, John Savati, and from there we proceeded to introduce him to the police department, so that they could take a witness statement.
And unfortunately, the police did not want to take him seriously. So we in turn provided him with an attorney. The attorney believed the witness. And we allowed him to talk to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor still discounted him. So the last resort was we.
GRACE: It`s ridiculous.
HOLLOWAY: We asked him to come to Houston, Texas, and we did a polygraph test, and guess what.
GRACE: He passed.
HOLLOWAY: He passed.
GRACE: Back to Art Harris, investigative journalist, he`s passed two polygraph tests. Tell me, how does daddy, daddy judge Van Der Sloot fit into this scenario?
HARRIS: Well, Nancy, he has told police that he woke up that morning at 7:00. So the worst case, this witness can only be used right now to show that father, the judge, is lying if he is believed. This is not enough to reopen a murder investigation.
GRACE: Says you. I`m sorry, I thought you were an investigative journalist.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: Well, I`ve known you long enough, Nancy. But since he told - - Hans Mos told your producers that only if they found a witness who saw Natalee Holloway on the beach with Joran would they be able to make an arrest.
GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni, doesn`t the witness place the judge on the scene?
MIKKILINENI: Yes, the witness does place the judge on the scene. But the thing is we`re not sure where the scene of the crime is. We don`t know if Natalee died on the beach, we don`t know if she died in a pond.
GRACE: Well, that`s what he said on the videotape in the SUV. He says she died on the beach. And he got rid of the body, Rupa. Didn`t he?
MIKKILINENI: He does confess this or admit this in the tape, Nancy. But here`s the thing. We`ve got this witness that places him near a pond that his first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Speaking of miscarriage of justice, back to the lawyers. Michael Griffith, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.
Renee Rockwell, I`ve never heard anything so ridiculous in my life that you`ve got to have a witness placing him there on the beach with her the night she died? That`s not true. You can make a case on circumstantial evidence. Plus he confessed on a -- in that SUV when he was being secretly recorded.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, I don`t know what else it`s going to take. I`ll say one thing. This deal with the pond and the slow walk and the dad following him, the best -- I have to agree with Art -- that you`re going to get out of that is perhaps some false swearing. Nothing near homicide.
GRACE: Says you.
To Dr. Joshua Perper -- Dr. Perper -- oh-oh, satellite down on Perper. Alan Ripka, weigh in.
RIPKA: Well, at the end of the day when you have an unsolved murder it`s amazing that they would discount a witness statement that placed the father and son together. I can`t believe that, Nancy. Certainly that shows that the father was lying. And that will continue an investigation because you know he`s got something to hide.
GRACE: Michael Griffith, I know what you`re going to say. So to Mike Brooks.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, if you recall back during the investigation, apparently they did pay attention to him a little bit, because if you recall, during the investigation in Aruba, they went back and they drained that pond that was right near the Marriott Hotel. Apparently they thought that some of his story was at least true.
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot. Apparently, police have caught up with him on an island off the Thai coast. We`ll keep you posted.
But let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Miguel Guzman, 21, Norwalk, California, killed Iraq. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Iraq Campaign medal, and Global War on Terrorism service medal.
Loved soccer, tennis, helping others. Dreamed of college. Leaves behind grieving parents Jose and Rosalba, brothers Jose Jr. and Ricky, also fiancee.
Miguel Guzman, American hero.
Thank you to our guests and especially for being with us. And happy birthday to Georgia friend of the show Joe Rickman Sr. And tonight a special good night from Florida friends of the show Joe and Tara.
Now, aren`t they a good looking couple?
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
