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CNN Larry King Live
Bill Clinton: Cabinet Problem?; Bailout: Who's Next?
Aired November 17, 2008 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, can President-Elect Obama keep American businesses from going bust?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: We have to do whatever it takes to get this economy moving again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Are more bailouts the answer or will the car industry crash and burn?
It's their first face-to-face meeting since the election -- does the president-elect need John McCain?
And, if so, for what?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We're going to have a good conversation about how we can do some work together to fix up the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: And can Bill Clinton derail Hillary's chances for one of the most important jobs in the world?
Plus, the pregnant man is really pregnant again -- see it, believe it. His wife and daughter do. They're all here right now on LARRY KING LIVE.
President-Elect Obama and Senator McCain met today in Chicago to discuss that and other things.
In Austin, Texas, is Karen Hughes, former adviser to President Bush and former White House communications director.
In New Orleans, James Carville, the CNN political contributor and Democratic strategist.
In Washington, Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. , Democrat of Illinois, national co-chair for Barack Obama and thought by some to take over his seat in the Senate.
And in Washington, our own John King, without the map, CNN's chief national correspondent. It hasn't been mentioned in the press, but I know this for a fact, Karen. After the Kennedy/Nixon tough fight, Kennedy flew down from Palm Beach to Nixon's compound near Miami and had a very long meeting, had lunch.
So this is not strange, is it, what happened today?
KAREN HUGHES, FORMER COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: It's not strange, but it's important, I think, Larry. It's an important signal for our own country and also for the world that after a very contentious election, that Americans can come together and we can have a respectful transition and that two candidates who fought it out so -- so vehemently and had different positions on issues are now going to try to work together.
Senator McCain, I know, has a history of reaching across the aisle and trying to work to accomplish things on a bipartisanship basis. He wants to change Washington. And that's something he has in common with President-Elect Obama.
And so I think it's an important signal for the country to see these two men meet together this early in the process.
L. KING: James, can something important happen out of this?
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, I think the important thing is -- I think President-Elect Obama they're setting out to form some mini-version of what you would think of as a coalition government. I think there's going to be more than one Republican in the cabinet. And I think they're going to put some Republicans in some of the agencies.
I think this sort of bipartisanship is -- this was the first of a series of meetings. And I think this is a direction that my sense is, is they want to move in and I think the direction that the country wants them to move in. I think the president-elect and his people are very perceptive about this.
L. KING: Congressman, if James is right, wasn't this a mandate for Barack Obama?
REP. JESSE JACKSON, JR. (D), ILLINOIS: Well, I believe it was in terms of the popular vote and certainly in terms of the electoral vote. But Barack Obama is more determined now to move this country in a direction of national reconciliation. He's trying to establish a tone that allows a very, very different approach to how this government should function here in Washington, by bringing people together -- to reach out to his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton; to reach out to John McCain.
Remember now, when Abraham Lincoln, at the end of his political career, and, obviously, at the end of his life, he never lived through Reconstruction. He never was able to really participate in the national reconciliation that was necessary after an extraordinary fight between North and South.
I think Barack Obama, as a Lincolnian, is very interested in bringing both sides together.
L. KING: John King -- and he mentioned last night -- Obama mentioned that the book he was reading now was about Roosevelt's transition, the first hundred days of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
What do you make of all of this, John?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So many big things to get done, Larry, that if Barack Obama relies only on the Democrats, something will go off the tracks. And the last thing a new president wants is for something to go off the tracks early.
So if he's going to deal with this economic crisis, which we all know is still a giant question mark -- we don't know some of the questions, let alone the answers, to what's going to happen in the economic crisis; plus, all the things he promised in the campaign, whether it's bringing troops home from Iraq to trying to deal with health care reform. Climate change is an issue on which he has relative common ground already with Senator McCain.
But you need to reach out. Yes, he has the left and he has much of the center. But if he wants to build a coalition further, as he governs, as opposed to losing pieces of it as he governs, he needs to reach out to the Republicans, without a doubt.
L. KING: Last night on "60 Minutes," Obama was asked about Hillary Clinton as a possible secretary of State. Watch what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "60 MINUTES," COURTESY CBS NEWS)
STEVE KROFT, CBS CORRESPONDENT: You met with Senator Clinton this week?
OBAMA: I did.
KROFT: Is she on the short list for a cabinet position?
OBAMA: You know, she is somebody who I needed advice and counsel from. She is one of the most thoughtful public officials that we have. Beyond that, you're not getting anything out of me, Steve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: OK. Steve isn't going to get anything out of him, but, Karen, what will we get out of this?
Is she going to be asked to be secretary of State, do you think?
HUGHES: Well, my gut tells me, yes, because I don't think that it would have -- he would have allowed the speculation to continue for so long if there were not some serious interest there. After all, this is someone who was his opponent in the primary. You don't want to offer that hope to all of her many supporters and then snatch it away.
And so, I actually think it would be a good choice, a smart choice for him. I also think she's someone who won a lot of friends and admirers during the election process. I think she came out of her campaign having earned admiration, even from some of those of us who don't agree with all of her politics.
But she fought hard and she earned, I think, a substantial support. She came out of it better than she -- having a better public perception than she went into it.
I also think it's important, having traveled the world for the State Department myself and met so many women who don't have the rights that women have in this country -- I mean little girls in Afghanistan who just last week had acid thrown on them when they went to school. And to see the most powerful country in the world represented by a woman is a very powerful signal...
L. KING: Yes.
HUGHES: ...to those women who are working for their rights. And, you know, I thought that about Condoleezza Rice. And I would also think that about -- about Hillary Clinton.
L. KING: James, what do you think of her for that job?
CARVILLE: Well, hey, I mean, I think she'd be terrific at anything she does. But you would expect me to say that, because I'm a huge admirer of Senator Clinton's.
But I mean, literally, the reaction around the country has been so positive. I mean it's like, oh, this is really what we need. And I think that -- and this is -- and I hear this from Democrats, Republicans, Obama people, Hillary people. You name it. This thing has had a very, very positive reaction from everybody, including even people like Henry Kissinger, Karen Hughes and many other people.
And I think there's momentum for it to happen. You know, they're going through things here. But I think they're going to get this thing done. And as Donna Brazil brilliantly said today, the Clintons are the most vetted people in the history of the planet.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I mean there's nobody that's been more examined and vetted and everything else than the Clintons. And I mean, at a point, you know, we're just going to -- we'll figure out what's the best way to do this. And I'm hopeful and think it will just proceed from there.
L. KING: I'll ask Congressman Jackson and John King what they think about the idea right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: All right, Congressman Jackson, what do you make of the idea of Senator Clinton being a secretary of State?
JACKSON: Well, she was a great first lady. She certainly was a great senator and she was a fantastic presidential candidate. She's traveled extensively around the world as first lady. And, clearly, this is one of the most important jobs in the administration -- helping restore America's relationship with other countries throughout the world -- restoring consumer confidence, not only domestically, but, clearly, globally.
The secretary of State in this new world that Barack Obama is fashioning and the new administration that he's fashioning is going to be a very, very important post. I think Hillary Clinton would be an excellent selection. But suffice it to say, I do not purport to speak for the president-elect. He will make that judgment at the appropriate time.
L. KING: I don't think any reporter has more ears to the ground than John King.
So the question will be asked this way -- will she be the next secretary of State?
J. KING: I think a likelihood, Larry. I think there is a likelihood tonight. There are some questions in the vetting process about former President Clinton's finances, his global initiative. James knows a lot about it. They're trying to make sure she could be an effective secretary of State and he could keep an agenda that is very important to him, without any financial conflicts, without any policy conflicts.
So it is not a done deal. But as Karen said, you don't put something like this out there and leave it out there for so many days unless it is a real possibility.
And, Larry, on a bigger issue, there are several Democrats who have come into the transition operation who are not involved day to day in the Obama campaign who are very impressed with the president- elect, because they say he is thinking big.
James can tell you and Karen can tell you how a cabinet works. In Bill Clinton's White House, he had some rock stars in his cabinet, but you knew 99 out of 100 policy issues were being decided at the White House because Bill Clinton liked to be involved in just about every major policy debate.
What you're hearing from inside the Obama operation is that this man knows there are so many big balls bouncing at once, his focus has to be mostly on the financial crisis, the economic issues here at home. And so he wants to bring in some very big people to help him. And many Democrats coming into this operation are quite impressed that he wants big names and he wants to invest them with big portfolios.
L. KING: Karen Hughes, are there national security issues heightened during a transition?
HUGHES: Well, President-Elect Obama said that last night during his interview, which, by the way, I thought was quite impressive. He was very measured. He was very thoughtful. He was very likable.
But he acknowledged that there are heightened sensitivities during a transition. And that's why I think it was a really strong signal to the world that President Bush invited President-Elect Obama to the White House, that President Bush has really won great compliments for being so gracious and really making sure that his administration is doing everything possible to support the new administration, so that they're fully up to speed at the end of this transition period.
L. KING: James, what do you think?
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, there's a reason that John King is one of the better reporters. I think basically what he said was one of the more accurate things I've heard describing the state of play right now. And Karen is right. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think President Bush does -- I've never been one to give him much credit. But I do think he deserves credit for the way that he's handled this transition. And I think that speaks well of him.
And I do think this is going to -- it seems to be one of the smoothest transitions I've seen. And it wouldn't have happened without the help of the current administration.
L. KING: OK.
Jesse, do you hear any word at all about -- your state has only one senator now...
(LAUGHTER)
L. KING: ...about you getting that job?
JACKSON: I have -- I've heard nothing from the governor as of yet. The governor is taking his time through a very -- a long list of very capable and qualified candidates across the State of Illinois. As you well know, I've thrown my hat in the ring for consideration -- 13 years in the Congress of the United States.
But in the final analysis, I trust the governor's judgment. He will make a decision in the best interests of the state and the nation on his own timetable.
L. KING: All right, back to our ears to the ground man -- John, will Obama...
J. KING: Larry, I...
L. KING: Will Obama's suggestion to the governor matter?
J. KING: Absolutely. And publicly they have said this is the governor's choice. But there are indications from a number of quarters that, look, they understand how important this is because Barack Obama -- it's not only his seat, but he would like somebody to take his place whom he likes and respects.
But here is a man who's got quite a bit to get done. You want someone you can work with. You want someone who can build their own legacy in a seat that was very important to you. So, behind the scenes, they will exercise whatever influence they can. The governor of Illinois has his own internal political problems to deal with at the moment, which is likely to be a source of the delay, Larry.
But you can be certain, not only does Congressman Jackson care very deeply about this -- and I've been working him before and after and during the breaks -- but the Obama -- the president-elect and all of the political people around him care very much about this, as well. And they want it resolved as quickly as possible.
L. KING: We have 30 seconds, John.
In your opinion, does Congressman Jackson have a big shot at this?
J. KING: I think he has an excellent shot at it because you would replace an African-American in the Senate with an African-American. You would replace a young man in the Senate with a young man with a long political future. And you would replace Barack Obama in the Senate with a man who shares his ideas and his goals on an agenda going forward.
So if you want a friend in Washington, you would -- in your seat, you have him sitting right here on your set laughing...
(CROSSTALK)
J. KING: ...not that there aren't others out there. I'm not in the endorsement business.
(LAUGHTER)
J. KING: There are others with a policy agenda, of course. And this is -- you know, Chicago politics...
L. KING: All right...
J. KING: ...you know, sometimes gets a dirty name, Larry. But it's a fun game.
(LAUGHTER)
L. KING: Thank you all very much.
We'll be back in 60 seconds with Frank and Stein -- Barney and Ben, that is. And we'll get your questions ready for the world's first pregnant man and his wife. They're here with their baby.
What do you want to know?
Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, in Washington, Ben Stein, the author, economist and "New York Times" columnist.
Also, there is Congressman Barney Frank, the Democrat of Massachusetts, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.
Gentlemen, last night on "60 Minutes," the president-elect talked about his concerns over the auto industry.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "60 MINUTES," COURTESY CBS NEWS)
OBAMA: For the auto industry to completely collapse would be a disaster in this kind of environment, not just for individual families, but the repercussions across the economy would be dire. So it's my belief that we need to provide assistance to the auto industry. But I think that it can't be a blank check.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Ben, what do we do?
BEN STEIN, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK TIMES," ECONOMIST: Oh, we've got to bail them out. This economy is reeling thanks, in large part, to miscues by Secretary Paulson. The economy is shot through with fear and desperation. We cannot have a jolt -- a further jolt downward like this.
It's possible for economies to reach an equilibrium position way below full employment. And this is what will happen if we let the auto companies go into bankruptcy. It's scary.
L. KING: All right.
Congressman Frank, what do you think?
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I think Ben has put it exactly right. And he stresses something that's very important -- the context.
If we were at full employment and everything was going well, this would be a different situation. You're talking about unemployment already very high and going higher. You're talking about an economy that's already shaky.
To have them collapse -- or, alternatively -- and this is something we were discussing before -- people blindly throw around, well, they can go into bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is often highly regarded by people who have never been through it. It is a far more disruptive activity, not just to the individuals who go bankrupt, but to the whole network of people to whom they are economically attached.
So there's never been a good time for the American automobile industry to go into a collapse. But there couldn't be a worst time.
The president-elect is right, it shouldn't be a blank check -- and it will not be. It will have conditions, it will have strong rights for repayment, it will have limitations of various sorts. But we would be inviting terrible disaster if we simply stood by.
L. KING: Ben, this is a quick segment, so you've got 30 seconds.
Do you think that Congress will come through for them or not?
STEIN: Well, I don't know if it will come through in the end of this session. They will definitely come through. It's just too big an event, too big an issue to be allowed to lie fallow. This cannot be allowed to happen. It just can't be allowed to happen. It's craziness.
L. KING: OK.
We're expecting a lot from President-Elect Obama.
Is it too much?
That's next.
Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: All right, Congressman Frank, both of you are for this, but what's going to happen?
Congress appears to be in some sort of gridlock.
Where is it going?
FRANK: Well, there is a three-way spit here. The president seems to be saying we did vote $25 billion for the auto industries to be used to become auto -- to become more energy efficient. I think that's essential.
Our $25 billion, by the way, will reinforce the need for them to improve energy efficiency, both for its own sake and to be able to sell cars.
The president has said just take the restrictions off that $25 billion.
The Senate, on the other hand, does not appear to be able to pass the bill, the leadership tells us, although they would like to try. And they say just take it out of the existing $750 billion rescue plan.
I don't think that's reasonable. We told the American people that rescue plan was for one purpose. They've already felt enough that they were subject to bait and switch. I think it would exacerbate it to do more.
But we're going to go forward. We will have a -- we announced a bill today that has legitimate conditions. It will be had -- heard in a public hearing on Wednesday. And I hope, with the right kind of discussion -- and I think the kind of arguments Ben Stein is making are very helpful -- that we may be able to turn things around. L. KING: Ben, will this lead other industries to say, hey, help them help us?
STEIN: Well, I think if they're as big and important as the auto industry, maybe they should be helped. I mean, look, there's such a thing as being an ideological purist and you get points for that when you take a college or grad school examination or apply to be a full professor.
But there are also people's lives at stake. The whole economy is at stake. This economy right now, thanks, in large part, to mistakes by Secretary Paulson, is in freefall. The idea of saying we're not going to put a net up under it just out of ideological purity is a terribly silly mistake with real world disastrous consequences.
FRANK: Could I say, Larry, people say where is it going to stop?
It will stop and should stop when we come to an issue where it would do more harm to do something than not to do something. There is no automatic cookie cutter that you can apply to all these things. You take them one at a time. And in some cases, clearly, the balance will go one way, in some the other.
L. KING: By the way, Thomas Friedman of "The New York Times" will be our special guest tomorrow night.
Congressman Frank, you met with Secretary Paulson and Chairman Bernanke today.
Any news?
FRANK: Well, we didn't primarily talk about this. What were pressing -- and this was the Democratic leadership convened by Speaker Pelosi. We were disappointed that so far, out of the $700 billion rescue, nothing has been done -- literally nothing -- to help reduce the number of foreclosures.
And until we can reduce the mortgage foreclosure cascade, we're not going to get out of the economic slump we're in.
So we put a lot of pressure on him to do that. And, frankly, we'll be having a hearing tomorrow morning, Larry, in which that conversation is going to go from private to public. I think people are going to get some encouragement, because that was the main topic today. You cannot take the $700 billion and have none of it go to trying to reduce foreclosures in a responsible way.
L. KING: Ben, you wrote a piece for our blog where you said we could be headed for a depression.
STEIN: Well, I think we -- I would have...
L. KING: How serious?
STEIN: I would never have thought it would be possible until we got Secretary Paulson as secretary of the Treasury. But he just doesn't understand, when you have an economy that is spiraling down, down, down, down, down, you don't kick it more. You don't kick it into the gutter. You try to boost confidence, not destroy confidence.
He's got to get his act together or else get out of there. We've got to get confidence back in the system.
If we could get a big stimulus package that's going to be continuous until the emergency is over -- and I would say, also, incentives to buy things. Give people a Treasury check when they buy a car. Give people a Treasury check when buy a refrigerator. Give people a Treasury check when they buy a washing machine. You will get the economy moving.
And the government is the only one who can do it. President Bush says it's got to be a private-public partnership. No. It's the government that's got to do it.
FRANK: Could I just say, Larry...
L. KING: Congressman?
Yes?
FRANK: In defense of Secretary Paulson -- and I have worked with him well on other things -- he's not the agent, he's not the principal here, he's the agent. I mean on some of these calls that Ben, I think, correctly, objects to, this is President Bush's call, particularly, for instance, in the opposition to any kind of stimulus. I'm afraid that one comes more from the White House than anywhere else.
L. KING: Do you think...
STEIN: That's (INAUDIBLE).
L. KING: Do you think, Barney, there were -- anything was accomplished at the financial summit this weekend?
FRANK: Not a great deal, except -- and, in fairness, it's too early to get something accomplished because we don't have a president of the United States who is going to be here next year. And the world watched that.
I take that back. We need to do, next year, some regulation to prevent the kind of abuses that exacerbated the situation we're in today. We can only do them if there's some international cooperation. You can't have vastly different regulatory schemes across borders.
And this meeting over the weekend was a good first step. The next one will be when we get a new administration...
L. KING: All right.
FRANK: ...and new regulations to try and coordinate them.
L. KING: Ben, any optimism in you? STEIN: Not much optimism unless we get a Treasury secretary and a president who have some knowledge of economics. It's scary how little they have learned about the causes of the Great Depression. Scary.
L. KING: All right.
Are you optimistic about Obama?
STEIN: I am optimistic that he's going to have very good people around him, much better people than Mr. Bush has around him, although I do like Eddy Lazear, the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, a lot. But the others are very disappointing.
I think Mr. Obama will have very good names around him.
L. KING: Do you agree, Barney?
FRANK: Oh, I do. I think the president-elect, who is himself a very smart man, understands that the domestic economic issues are overpowering. You know, it's true -- nobody since Roosevelt has come in office under such a need to do the right thing. And I'm impressed with the people around him. And with the conversations that they've been having.
L. KING: Thank you both very much.
We'll be calling on you a lot.
Ben Stein and Congressman Barney Franks.
FRANK: Larry, next time you have us on, maybe we'll fight about something. I know it's boring.
STEIN: We will fight. You've got it.
FRANK: We agreed too much on things.
STEIN: We promise a fight next time.
FRANK: (INAUDIBLE).
OK?
L. KING: OK. Next time they fight.
FRANK: Absolutely.
L. KING: OK.
The Beatie family -- mom, dad and baby -- are all here when LARRY KING LIVE returns.
And I'll ask what millions want to know of the world's first pregnant man -- why?
Don't go anywhere. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
You can go to our Web site right now and answer the Quick Vote question -- should the pregnant man have kept the pregnancy private?
Or tell us on our blog, CNN.com/larryking.
Joining us now is Thomas Beatie, the pregnant man, and his wife Nancy.
He gave birth in July to the couple's first child. And they're expecting again. His new book, "Labor of Love
The Story of One Man's Extraordinary Pregnancy" -- there you see its cover coming up -- is in bookstores right now. And his family's fascinating story will debut tomorrow night on Discovery Health.
Thomas and Nancy, welcome. Congratulations.
How is it going?
THOMAS BEATIE, PREGNANT MAN: Good, thank you.
L. KING: Are you surprised at all of this attention, or did you expect it?
BEATIE: Honestly, we are quite surprised. We naively thought that we were going to be able to get away with me giving birth without anyone knowing.
L. KING: Who picked it up?
NANCY BEATIE, WIFE OF PREGNANT MAN: In the beginning, we pretended like I was pregnant.
L. KING: Who picked the story up? Who got it out?
BEATIE: Well, this is what happened. I got pregnant with my first pregnancy and it ended up an ectopic pregnancy. So there were about 100 medical professionals who knew about our situation, and the word was getting back to us. So we figured, well, we had experienced some medical discrimination, and we had some legal questions about what is our baby's birth certificate going to say? Is our marriage going to be OK? So I wrote on article in the "Advocate Magazine," which is a national gay and lesbian magazine.
L. KING: And that was that?
BEATIE: That was it. We were looking for help.
L. KING: Let's break it down so we understand the story. You were a woman, right? You were a woman? You now call yourself a man. You were born a female?
BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: How did you two meet?
BEATIE: We met at a gym 18 years ago, at a gym in Hawaii. Almost 18 years ago.
L. KING: How long have you been together?
N. BEATIE: Eleven, going on 12.
BEATIE: Yes, going on 11. We've been married for going on six.
L. KING: Obviously, you look like a man. You are a man. Did you go through surgeries?
BEATIE: I chest reconstruction surgery. And I've had hormone treatment.
L. KING: So you are a man to yourself?
BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: How did the idea come about that he/she should get pregnant?
N. BEATIE: Well, we both wanted to start a family. I had a hysterectomy. So we thought about adopting and all of these other options, but who better to carry our baby than him?
L. KING: So how did it -- how was it done?
N. BEATIE: Well, we had to get -- we got a donor. And we did it at home. I did it.
L. KING: You did it? The donor denotes the sperm?
N. BEATIE: Right. We ordered the sperm and it came to our house. I put it in a syringe without a needle.
L. KING: And injected it?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: So you never had any work done in the lower parts that would change that part?
BEATIE: Just from what testosterone does naturally.
L. KING: Did he get pregnant right out of the box?
N. BEATIE: Right. Basically.
BEATIE: Basically.
L. KING: You didn't have to do more shots?
N. BEATIE: Nope.
BEATIE: No. She's good.
N. BEATIE: And I did it again.
L. KING: He's pregnant now, right? How did you know how to do that?
BEATIE: We had to look that stuff up online. We had a difficult time finding a physician to help us. We found a physician to finally sign for a sperm bank, and that's how we could do it at home. But we did look the stuff up online.
L. KING: Why would a physician not help you?
BEATIE: That's a good question. We had a lot of trouble.
N. BEATIE: I think some of it was -- excuse me -- religion. You know?
L. KING: The state is supposed to be separate from religion.
BEATIE: Absolutely. Our first fertility endocrinologist said he didn't feel comfortable working with somebody like me.
L. KING: Why didn't you adopt?
N. BEATIE: Why -- Would you say that to somebody else that was --
L. KING: Yes. A lot of people I've asked why don't you adopt?
BEATIE: That's a viable option and we did consider it. I have a very real need to pass down my genes, so we were going to try that first and then look into surrogacy. But we would have had a lot of problems with surrogacy, because we would need fertility endocrinologist to help out.
L. KING: And you couldn't have gotten an adoption through the legal adoption ways other people adopt, you think?
BEATIE: I'm sure we probably could have.
L. KING: Maybe not with --
N. BEATIE: We wanted to have our baby.
L. KING: So legally, what are you know? In Oregon, are you married?
BEATIE: We are legally married. We got legally married in the state of Hawaii. And because of the full faith and credit clause, our marriage is accepted across the country.
L. KING: So you are completely legal, insurance, all the other things, are covered? BEATIE: Yes. I have health insurance as a male. Life insurance policy --
N. BEATIE: birth certificate, marriage certificate --
BEATIE: Driver's license, Social Security, everything.
L. KING: What a story. More with the family after the break. And we'll meet baby Susan next. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP
BEATIE: Just because I'm pregnant, I don't have pregnancy hormones running through my body. The body wants to put on a little bit of extra fat in certain places. Like being off my testosterone, my voice has climbed an octave or so. I'll be back in the gym benching 220 in no time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: And Thomas Beatie and Nancy Beatie remain with us. Their book is "Labor of Love," and she's her, Susan Beatie, five months and one day old. What a beautiful -- what was it like giving birth, Thomas?
BEATIE: Wow. It's an experience you can't quite -- you just can't describe it to someone else who hasn't gone through it. It's a life-changing experience for sure.
L. KING: Were you there, Nancy?
N. BEATIE: I sure was.
L. KING: Where did you give birth?
N. BEATIE: In Bend, Oregon.
L. KING: In a hospital?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: Regular hospital? Nobody had any objections?
BEATIE: No.
L. KING: Did you run into legal problems at all?
BEATIE: We have actually with her birth certificate.
L. KING: What does it say?
BEATIE: Well, I filled it out as me father, Nancy mother, and they changed it last minute, and they put her as father and me as mother. And then they changed it again and put us as parents. That's fine and dandy, but we don't have a domestic partnership. We're not a same-sex marriage. We're legal man and wife.
L. KING: That's a big difference.
BEATIE: Yes. One part of the government recognizes me as male and, now with our baby's birth certificate, there's a conflict. So we're really concerned that it's going to jeopardize our future.
L. KING: What would happen if, god forbid, you pass away? Would somebody fight over this baby?
BEATIE: It's very likely. That's what I'm very afraid of and that's why we need help. We need an attorney to help us make it right.
L. KING: Is it you can't afford one?
BEATIE: No. We -- we'd like the help of any attorney that could help us. We did approach the ACLU. Unfortunately, they declined to help us.
L. KING: This is not constitutional, right?
BEATIE: It wasn't that. They had other conflicts of interest.
L. KING: When you met, were you -- what kind of couple were you?
BEATIE: A normal couple.
L. KING: What I meant was did you consider yourself gay?
BEATIE: No. We -- I lived my life as a woman at that point. Legally, I was female. But inside I still felt male. So the way other people perceived us, they saw us as a lesbian couple.
L. KING: Do you feel gay?
N. BEATIE: I don't feel gay. Sometimes I'm kind of happy. But no.
L. KING: So you feel you're married to a man?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: Completely?
N. BEATIE: Yes. Even when he was pregnant, he was still a man to me.
L. KING: Was that a little strange then?
N. BEATIE: No. It just felt right. I know what's up inside his head. I know what's in his heart.
L. KING: Yes. We're going to -- we caught up with the Beaties at home with their daughter, Susan. Let's take a look. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
N. BEATIE: We're so happy. She's such a good baby.
BEATIE: She's just been in the process of firsts and exciting moments. It's just fascinating to watch a human baby develop. It's simply fascinating.
N. BEATIE: Look at her. Her teeth are coming in, slowly but surely, but they're coming in.
BEATIE: We're ready to grow our family. And we want Susan to be a big sister.
N. BEATIE: She's going to be a great big sister.
BEATIE: If she's anything like mommy and daddy, she's going to be a tough girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: This is an incredible story. You also became a target for the tabloids, right?
BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: People calling you freaks.
BEATIE: Absolutely.
L. KING: How did you handle all of that emotionally?
BEATIE: I have thick skin. I just couldn't allow what other people think about our family to affect us.
L. KING: Why did you write the book, Nancy?
N. BEATIE: Well, he started writing the book when he was --
L. KING: Oh, it's his book?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: So did you help in the book?
N. BEATIE: I'm in the book.
L. KING: I hope you're in the book.
N. BEATIE: It's a love story. It's also -- it's not just about the pregnancy. It's about our life, our lives.
BEATIE: It's about a lot of things. It's about being true to yourself, following your dreams and overcoming adversity. It is a love story. I think a lot of people will be able to find themselves in our story.
L. KING: You've had children?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: Before you were in a marriage?
N. BEATIE: I was married a long time ago.
L. KING: How old are the children?
N. BEATIE: Twenty six and 28.
L. KING: You don't look that old.
N. BEATIE: Well --
L. KING: How do they feel about their sister?
N. BEATIE: They love her.
L. KING: How do they feel about this whole thing?
N. BEATIE: They love us.
L. KING: Yes?
N. BEATIE: It's just normal.
L. KING: Did they know you had different kind of feelings? Your children, do they know that -- you know, you didn't have a normal I want to meet a guy out on the ridge and walk off into the sunset.
BEATIE: She did.
L. KING: Well, you know what I mean. Do they know that you had different thoughts?
N. BEATIE: I don't understand.
L. KING: You met a woman.
N. BEATIE: Yes. I mean, I --
L. KING: You fell in love with a woman who became a man.
N. BEATIE: I'm not attracted to a particular sex. I'm attracted to a person.
L. KING: And so you had no problems?
N. BEATIE: No.
L. KING: When you met, he was a woman?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: And you had no problems with that? N. BEATIE: No, no.
L. KING: So the question was, did your other children regard that as surprising?
N. BEATIE: No.
L. KING: That's all --
N. BEATIE: OK.
L. KING: We can tell that you, our viewers, have been busy. We'll be back in 60 seconds with your comments. Ah, Susan. Why, Susan? We've got a show to run. Why? We'll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: There is a lot of conversation, as you might imagine, going on right now on our blog. You can join in at CNN.com/LarryKing. Here now to tell us what you are saying is our very Sarah Schnare. Sara?
SARAH SCHNARE, LARRY KING LIVE PRODUCER: Thank you, Larry. Well, it's not every day that we get to meet a pregnant man. Tonight's show has been creating a lot of buzz. Let's take a look at what our viewers are saying. Kay writes, "I think Thomas is trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He should be required to declare himself a man and no longer retain the ability to carry children."
Allison says, "Mr. Beatie is a transsexual man, and thus his pregnancy is no more shocking or terrifying than a woman's. Transsexual people have babies all the time. Both transsexual men getting pregnant and transsexual women getting their partners pregnant. This is not new."
Cheryl, a supporter of the bay, says, "yes, the pregnant man is, in fact, legally a man. They need not listen to any of the negativity about what people are saying, because there are people out there who support them."
So, Larry, I think overall just a general curiosity from your viewers. The show is just fascinating. Speaking of viewers, thank you for your questions and comments tonight. Keep them coming. Larry?
L. KING: Thanks very much, Sarah. Good job. Well done. We'll take some of those blog questions to our quests right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEATIE: I'm totally prepared for this. I am totally ready.
N. BEATIE: We need to have a baby, Thomas. Good, Thomas.
Good, good.
BEATIE: I feel incredible. This is the happiest moment of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Thomas' book is "Labor of Love." And pregnant man airs on Discovery Health tomorrow night. It chronicles Thomas' baby pregnancy and Susan's birth.
(NEWS BREAK)
L. KING: Thomas Beatie and Nancy Beatie are with us. Let's take a phone call. Kentucky, hello.
CALLER: Hi. I'm just -- I was wanting to know if they thought that this would affect the children in a negative way in the future, growing up.
L. KING: Good question. Thomas?
BEATIE: Well, babies aren't born with prejudice or bias.
L. KING: No.
BEATIE: They're taught it. Absolutely. We're going to raise our daughter with dignity and respect for other people. You know, a lot of children go through -- they get teased, et cetera, but we're not going to allow other people's opinion of us to --
L. KING: Are you concerned about it, Nancy?
N. BEATIE: I think I raised my two older girls the same way we are going to raise this baby. Tolerance, we teach tolerance.
L. KING: That will be nice. Maybe this last elections shows tolerance.
N. BEATIE: Sure.
L. KING: You looking forward to the next one?
BEATIE: The next child.
L. KING: What kind of birth was it?
BEATIE: It was natural birth.
L. KING: Not Cesarean?
BEATIE: No, it was rumored that it was. But it wasn't.
L. KING: How far along are you now? BEATIE: I am ten weeks.
L. KING: Same donor?
BEATIE: Same donor.
L. KING: You did it again?
N. BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: What are you an expert?
N. BEATIE: I'm a stud, I guess.
L. KING: Where did you learn how to do this? From the Internet, you said, right. You can't have the normal kind of intercourse, right?
BEATIE: We can.
L. KING: Oh.
N. BEATIE: Not to make a baby.
BEATIE: Because of hormones, my -- my clitoris has enlarged and it looks like a penis. I can have intercourse with my wife.
L. KING: That's fascinating to me. I didn't know that. So you have a clitoris that look likes a penis so it can fit into having love relations? I sound like a dummy, trying to figure it out, right?
BEATIE: Basically.
L. KING: You can't father a child?
BEATIE: I am.
L. KING: What is he?
N. BEATIE: I'm the mother.
BEATIE: I'm the father.
L. KING: He's the father. You need the legal help to do what for you. What do you want, perfect story?
BEATIE: I would like to be listed as father and Nancy mother on our baby's birth certificate, because she was created within wedlock and because of the legitimacy of marriage, that's the way it should be.
L. KING: Right now, you're parents. Was it very hard growing up wanting to be not what you were?
BEATIE: You know, I didn't see that as a difficulty growing up. When I got a little bit older, mainly when I hit my teens and my father pressured me to enter a beauty pageant and do some modeling, I started to feel conflicted.
L. KING: You look at pictures in this book, you were a beautiful girl.
BEATIE: Thank you.
L. KING: Come on, you were, wasn't he? You were a beautiful girl. But inside, you didn't want to be a girl?
BEATIE: That's right.
L. KING: Wasn't that terrible?
BEATIE: It wasn't terrible. When I hit my college years, I realized there was another path in life I could choose and to follow my heart.
L. KING: You didn't feel gay? By that, I mean, were you attracted to other women?
BEATIE: I have always been attracted to women. I consider myself a heterosexual man.
L. KING: Now. When you were 16, what were you?
BEATIE: I was a young girl who wasn't interested in sex at all.
N. BEATIE: Studies at school.
BEATIE: At school.
L. KING: By the way, if you wonder about Susan. Susan got a little cranky and we removed her to the green room, where we hope she's getting a bottle. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
L. KING: How does testosterone -- good question from inside the control room. How does testosterone replacement work when you're pregnant?
BEATIE: It doesn't. I stopped two years ago.
L. KING: It would be kind of not work, right?
BEATIE: I don't think you can get pregnant while on testosterone.
L. KING: Were you nervous when he gave birth?
N. BEATIE: I was sad to see him in that kind of pain. That's all. .
L. KING: Didn't they have an injection, what do you call it injection they give you, to reduce the pain?
BEATIE: When I was going through labor?
L. KING: Yes.
BEATIE: They gave me some sort of anesthesia.
L. KING: It's an anesthesia.
BEATIE: It's a pain killer and it didn't work.
L. KING: Let's take a call. Burlington, New York. Hello.
CALLER: Hello.
L. KING: Hi, go ahead.
CALLER: I was wondering, does anatomy or psychology define you as man or woman? Either way, if it does, how are we supposed to teach this to our children now?
L. KING: Thomas?
BEATIE: Does anatomy and psychology determine what sex we are?
L. KING: How are you defined?
BEATIE: Sex and gender is on a huge spectrum. It's a not just black and white. There are many shades in between. It's a combination of chromosomes, hormones, reproductive organs, your psychology. I gotten an e-mail just recently from a woman who sat her seven-year-old son down to watch the Barbara Walters special, and she wanted to teach her child about diversity in the world.
L. KING: Good idea?
BEATIE: Yes.
L. KING: Do you -- do we know why you are the way you are? Do we know why certain people would be born men who wanted to be women or women who wanted to be men or felt wrong all their life?
BEATIE: I don't think they know definitively. The human brain is the largest sex organ we have. It has something to do with it. Biologically, I am male within my brain.
L. KING: When did you begin to wonder?
BEATIE: Wonder if I was male?
L. KING: At what age did you say, why am a woman?
BEATIE: Well, when I was a child, I basically thought I was a little boy. I tried out for a play, and I auditioned for the male lead part and I got it.
L. KING: Did you play with soldiers?
BEATIE: I loved arcades. I played with Legos. I went fishing.
L. KING: You were a Tomboy.
BEATIE: I was definitely a Tomboy.
L. KING: Play football?
BEATIE: A little bit.
L. KING: How did the other kids treat you?
BEATIE: They treated me -- you know, kids, you know, are judgmental, but I think when you're that young, you don't really see that sort of thing.
L. KING: Is this the end of the baby sphere? This baby going to be the last?
N. BEATIE: We don't know yet. We haven't decided.
BEATIE: It's all up to her?
L. KING: What do you do for a living?
BEATIE: I have a custom screen printing t-shirt business and we both run the shop.
L. KING: It's a public business, a retail shop?
BEATIE: Yes, we do custom screenings, going on 12 years.
L. KING: In Bend, Oregon, right? What's the name of it.
BEATIE: Define Normal.
L. KING: Nobody's ever figured out what normal is.
BEATIE: Different is normal.
L. KING: Are you going to do a whole media whirl now. You did Barbara Walters, "Good Morning America" and this show. Now what, and Discovery tomorrow. That's been taped.
N. BEATIE: That's at 9:00.
L. KING: That's been taped.
BEATIE: Discovery Health tomorrow night at 9:00.
N. BEATIE: We're going back to New York.
L. KING: You're going to do a lot of media.
BEATIE: Not a whole lot.
N. BEATIE: A couple more things. L. KING: The two of you, really, I think you're terrific. I think what you've done is not the easiest thing in the world and especially to come forward. You have a beautiful little daughter. I wish you nothing but the best. All right. That's Thomas Beatie and his wife, Nancy Beatie, and the book is "Labor of Love, the Story of One Man's Extraordinary Pregnancy." That it is. Amazing story.
You can post your comments on our blog all day and night. We never close. Go to CNN.com/LarryKing. Click on blog and start writing. While you're there, answer tonight's quick vote question. Should the pregnant man have kept this whole thing private? Tomorrow, columnist, author, Pulitzer Prize winner, and all around pretty smart guy Thomas Friedman will be our special guest. That's LARRY KING LIVE Tuesday.
Right now, it's still Monday, so it's time for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?
