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Nancy Grace
Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties
Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police suspicions confirmed. Tonight, the timeline is finally nailed down and it reveals that in the days and weeks leading up to Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom repeatedly complains to friends Caylee`s cramping her style, her social life. And it all comes straight from the horse`s mouth. Her own text messages do her in.
And tonight, the search continues in a local park, including in the murky, alligator-infested waters of the Econ River, all in the search for Caylee. And although the tot mom`s not cooperating with police in the search for Caylee, a Florida trial lawyer is now set to depose her under oath in hours. Will the tot mom finally be forced to speak? Bounty hunter, leading the search for Caylee, Leonard Padilla, agrees to a polygraph. But will grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and brother, Lee, break down and do the same? Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities were being heavily restricted by her daughter, Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene, but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2- year-old daughter Caylee home alone. Anthony`s mommy duties were not allowing her to have fun with friends and caused the tot mom to constantly wait for her mother, Cindy Anthony, to come home to take care of the parenting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been great to get Casey, Lee, Cindy and George would have taken a lie-detector test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite swirling anger and personal attacks among the players in the Casey Anthony case, volunteer searchers continue to search for Caylee, hoping to bring her home and bring peace to a community desperate for answers.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Kidfinders -- it`s -- (INAUDIBLE) people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter`s alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home. You know, this other stuff that`s going on is just a distraction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. He`s still insisting wife number four left her own children for another man, claiming she remains in hiding.
Peterson now plans to file for divorce. It`s all caught on audiotape. At stake, all the marital assets, including the family home. The prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, Peterson must now prove in court that she left him. But how?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I really believe she took off with somebody. Why am I going out searching for someone I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s a waste of my time. It`s, like, crazy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police officer Drew Peterson, a suspect in his four wife, Stacy`s, disappearance, is said to be seeking a divorce from the missing mom of two.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": You`re seeing him about a divorce?
PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.
ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.
PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always said that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bychowski.
ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?
PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.
ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?
PETERSON: I told you, nothing to say.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Man, he`s been blabbing for months. Now he clams up? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Casey Anthony actually be forced to give details of what happened to Caylee from behind bars? Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, John Morgan, hopes that`s the case. He says he plans to depose Casey from jail, thanks to Anthony`s countersuit against Zenaida Gonzalez. In that suit, Anthony claims she was truthful to investigators. Now Morgan telling local reporters the countersuit forces Anthony to either give a deposition or drop her lawsuit. Morgan hopes to depose Anthony within the next two weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter was on the edge. You know that (INAUDIBLE) all these contradictions.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you at all that day. Do you think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to...
CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do all this stuff?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter (INAUDIBLE) the car (INAUDIBLE)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this while reports indicate divers plan to return to Blanchard Park to continue the search for Caylee in the Little Econ River, while Leonard Padilla confirms he`s waiting for the FBI to administer a polygraph.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A lot happening in the search for Caylee. With us tonight, the renowned scientist Dr. Henry Lee. As you know, Dr. Lee has been called in on the Anthony case, and he has examined the automobile belonging to the tot mom that still reeks of human decomposition now 22 weeks after Caylee goes missing. We`ll go straight to Dr. Lee.
But first to Natisha Lance, our producer. Her own text messages are doing her in. What do they confirm? I understand our suspicions are now confirmed, as to a possible motive, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the text messages confirm, Nancy, that, apparently, Casey`s mommy duties were getting in the way of her being able to go out. There were several text messages she had with friends between May and June, where in which time she had to cancel certain plans with them because she said, quote, her "mommy duties" got in the way. Now, one of these times was with Amy Huizenga on May 3. Another time was in mid-May, and another time, as well, was at the end of May. And then after that, she ends up going to that no clothes party, which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her in that American flag. And then at the end of June...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait! The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S, no clothing party?
LANCE: Yes. It was...
GRACE: No, I didn`t know about that. What`s that?
LANCE: It was actually the anything but clothes party. And in the text messages, she says that, You will see the American flag in all of its glory.
GRACE: OK. Before we go to Dr. Henry Lee, very quickly to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, at her point in life with a child, a 2- year-old child, what is she doing at a party that the cops bust up at 1:15 AM?
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Hey, she`s an unmarried mother who`s still young, and she made an unfortunate decision when she had her child, and that`s to understand...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!
TAYLOR: ... the complete responsibilities...
GRACE: When I was her age, I was not at a party that was broken up by cops. I was in law school, working two jobs. Help me out here, Doctor.
TAYLOR: Well, she chose to be a mom, and with being a mother comes the responsibilities of denying what you want to do and taking care of your child. Clearly, that was a conflict for her. Her mother seemingly bailed her out numerous times. But as she said, the mommy duties became too overwhelming. She just wasn`t ready to be a mother.
GRACE: I just don`t see what you said, Doctor -- Dr. Janet Lee (SIC) -- denying what you want to do. I would think that what you would want to do is be with your child.
TAYLOR: Well, I mean, the reality is, mothers feel a lot of pull. It`s a lot of responsibility. Sometimes you have support, sometimes you don`t. But most of us have to make the sacrifices with coming with the decision that we have made to have our children, to raise our children, and to delay our gratification until later.
GRACE: With me, before I lose him, I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, who is taking time out of his travel schedule to join us tonight. You know Dr. Henry Lee originally probably from the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, forensic scientist. He has examined Casey Anthony`s car. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee?
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: Yes. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: Friend.
LEE: I haven`t talked to you for a while.
GRACE: I know. I`ve been missing you, Dr. Lee. It`s nice to hear your voice. So did the car still stink to high heaven when you examined it?
LEE: Yes, when I examine the car, it still have the odor.
GRACE: Now, Dr. Lee, your testimony has been extremely impressive in the past. No one will ever forget the various demonstrations that you have done in high-profile court cases. When you say it smelled, is it true the car smells of decomposition?
LEE: The smell -- actually, it`s a rotten smell. It`s caused by any type of decomposition. The definition of decomposition, anything. It can be any food material. Can be human body. Can be any type of thing, decomposition. So the terms decomposed, human body odor, I don`t think any scientist can qualify to say -- just smell the odor, say that`s a human body.
GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee -- everyone, with us, he is on the Anthony defense team -- I know that you have the highest regard for the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee. I trained there myself for a period of time. According to them, and their -- their specialty unit, the "body farm," there was evidence of human decomposition. Would that be consistent with the smell that you smelled, Dr. Henry Lee?
LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.
GRACE: Like what?
LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know! The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Henry Lee. Shortly, we will be joined by another famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Lee joining us as he heads to the Philippines to accept a peace award medal. Again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what part of the car did you examine?
LEE: OK. Nancy, I look at the whole car. Then I examine the liner, the carpet, the content of the car. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Orange sheriff department, the crime scene investigator and detective. They`re true professionals. So the whole examination took a whole day and very professional manner. We did find some additional evidence, which was collected and handed to the sheriff`s department.
GRACE: Dr. Lee, do you plan on looking at any other evidence in the case, such as the hair samples?
LEE: Not right now. My initial agreement was just to examine the car, to look at the car. So I don`t know any other evidence. And of course, a lot depends on the schedule and -- to look at the hair or not. And I`m sure if it`s important -- Larry -- Dr. Kobilinsky is another excellent forensic scientist. I`m sure he can look at the hair, too.
GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, you stated that there was a lot of garbage in the car. Did I understand you correctly to say meat and cheese were in the car?
LEE: Box of -- you know, those (INAUDIBLE) frozen foods. So have some food residue there. But we did find a lot of maggots, insect activity and fungus growing. But you know, it`s a lot of (INAUDIBLE) information have to digest before we reach any conclusion.
GRACE: And Dr. Lee, you said frozen food? Such as what?
LEE: Frozen food boxes. You know, those packages.
GRACE: Frozen food boxes. Was there food inside of it?
LEE: Well, because right now, I can`t really say too much about what we looked at, what we found, OK?
GRACE: And Dr. Lee, I understand that. You are a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, I asked you about the body farm, which is a special unit there at Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee.
LEE: Yes. That`s not really -- the body farm, just people give that name. The correct term is Tennessee Anthropological Testing Facility.
GRACE: It certainly is. And I understand that you have the utmost respect for them.
LEE: Yes. Dr. Bass (ph) is a good friend of mine and -- but I doubt any forensic anthropologist can just smell the odor and reach a conclusion.
GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.
LEE: Right. Well (INAUDIBLE) it`s identified as organic molecules.
GRACE: Right.
LEE: It`s not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules this (ph) consist of certain amount of components only shows some of those organic material present. That`s -- I think -- you know, somebody looked at this and reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition. That`s little bit too far.
GRACE: Joining us...
LEE: But right this moment, of course, we have to digest, to review the report and to found out what exactly it means.
GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic consultant to the Anthony defense team.
Very quickly, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, with WFTV. On Friday, it was reported that Leonard Padilla was kicked out of the Jay Blanchard Park. There he was with volunteer divers, searching the bottom of the Econ River. That`s not true at all. He was not kicked out. There were simply other functions at the park, and he didn`t search over the weekend. He is resuming the search this week, is that correct, Kathi Belich?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. The divers plan to be back later this week. I`m not sure if he is coming back with them. I did talk with him, actually, about a half hour ago, and he couldn`t tell me when he might take this lie-detector test, either. He has agreed to take a lie-detector test. He doesn`t know why they`ve asked him to take a test, but he says he`s agreed to it and he`ll either come back to Orlando to take that test, if he has to, or an FBI agent in the Sacramento area will do that.
But yes, he was not -- he was told not to come back for the weekend because there were a lot of activities at the park, it`s very crowded, and they really didn`t want us and everybody else there, as well. So he is welcome to come back this week, as far as I understand.
GRACE: Well, Kathi, let`s get it straight from the horse`s mouth. With me right now, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Why are you being asked to take a polygraph test? And to your credit, you`ve said, Sure, strap me up!
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: To be honest with you, I think sometimes, you know, the tactics of putting an individual like me in a car when you could just as easily stand there in front of 100 people and ask them questions is meant to either annoy or upset you, which it doesn`t. I`ve sat in many cop cars. I think that the situation about a lie detector-test being asked in front of people is supposed to make you uncomfortable or disconcerting and I got...
GRACE: Well, you don`t look uncomfortable to me.
PADILLA: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
PADILLA: I`ve taken lie-detector tests going back to when I was...
GRACE: I hope you passed them.
PADILLA: I think I did, in the military, many, many times. So something like this is probably...
GRACE: What are they -- are people alleging that you planted what was found in the Econ River?
PADILLA: I was asked that by reporters, not by law enforcement. But I think the main thing is the cross that was on the tree...
GRACE: Right.
PADILLA: ... that two young ladies took pictures of back in August. And on the Sunday and Monday that we were there, one of our team members found two little... GRACE: Beads.
PADILLA: ... beads that matched the beads in Casey`s house identically. And I think law enforcement was a little, Oh, my God, how did we miss those? Well, my guys are taught to dig, dig and dig more.
GRACE: Well, with us, taking your calls live tonight, Leonard Padilla. More on the search and the text messages that confirmed what we already suspected about possible motive for Caylee`s disappearance.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite places to go. I guess Universal`s one of them.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, as a theatrical thing, of course. But she liked Jay Blanchard Park, going to Lake Underhill and walking around the lake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?
CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just attempt to run around Lake Underhill.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot happening in the search for little Caylee. First of all, out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, very much. What is your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why George, Cindy and Lee aren`t taking a polygraph just to clear themselves.
GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Jason Oshins, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless. What about it Jason Oshins?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, it`s not to their advantage.
GRACE: Why? They`re not charged with anything.
OSHINS: It`s not admissible. It`s only going to hurt them and...
GRACE: We know it`s not admissible. That`s not what Raye in Florida asked you.
OSHINS: Yes, but it`s not going to help. There`s nothing good that`s going to come of it no matter how it`s administered or how it`s tailored (ph).
GRACE: Susan, agree?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they have nothing to hide, they should come forward and help find the remains of this little precious girl.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She is coming home.
She is leading you to a place, but she is not telling you the exact right location to which apartment it is, because she is afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.
My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half truths, but she is not a murderer.
There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.
ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house, cleared them. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done anything to harm her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.
She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. We have a tip now Coral Spring, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Yes, obviously, Cindy Anthony is ignoring the obvious. She`s in denial. Clearly, she`s defending her daughter. But can you imagine being hounded by the media every day, every night, like a pack of hyenas, chasing you up the sidewalk?
Out to the lines, Suzie in New Mexico. Hi, Suzie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: No, thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if this car smelled so horribly bad like, by all accounts it did, wouldn`t it have been noticeable to her boyfriend and other people, and how could she stand driving around in it?
GRACE: Well, you know, she abandoned the car.
Out to Nikki Pierce. I don`t know that the boyfriend ever smelled the car. Wasn`t she waiting outside the car with groceries in her hands when he showed up?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, when he showed up to rescue her from the supposedly -- that she ran out of gas when she abandoned the car at the Amscot parking lot. She was standing outside with groceries in her car so he never got near it.
And when she was returning the gas cans and so on to her father that she supposedly stole, she wouldn`t let him near the trunk, either. So by all accounts, she tried to keep everyone away from it.
GRACE: To Crystal in Delaware, hi, Crystal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I absolutely love your show. I watch it every night.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, with all of the sightings they had of Caylee in the United States, has anyone gone down to Puerto Rico and checked the sightings out down there?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Out to you, Natisha Lance, our reporter on the case from the very beginning. What about in Puerto Rico?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in Puerto Rico, Cindy did do an interview on Univision Television to get the word out out there in Puerto Rico, but also the private investigator who has been working with them has been following up on all tips, all leads that are coming from all over the country, as well as Puerto Rico.
GRACE: So back to you, Leonard Padilla, when are you set for your polygraph everybody is talking about?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Friday, I spoke to the agent there, Nick Savage, and he said that his polygrapher was on vacation or something this week.
GRACE: Well, there`s more than one, FYI.
PADILLA: Well, no -- I don`t know. I mean he told me that the guy that does the -- the polygraph test there was gone and would be back either Tuesday or Wednesday. And I hinted that maybe he wants to cover my expenses while I stayed past the weekend. And then he said no, well, we can go out to California, and do them out there.
And the thought came to my mind that I`d call Don King and maybe have the polygraph test done on pay-per-view and make some money to go back and resume the hunt.
GRACE: Boy, you really are something. OK. I will just leave it at that, Padilla, because at least -- no matter what anybody says about you, at least, whatever the motivation is, you`re out there hunting. You`re doing something. Everybody else is sitting on their duff, all right? So you`ve got that going to you.
To Mark Smith, polygrapher -- polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphist -- Mark Smith, how reliable do you believe polygraphs are?
MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: It doesn`t matter what I believe, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes, well, that`s what I asked you.
SMITH: The Department of Defense has done testing over 20 years, and they`ve shown that for specific-issue polygraph tests, it`s well over 90 percent. That`s the good news. The other good news, it`s the only method of lie detection that there is today.
GRACE: You know what? That was an excellent answer. You know, you beat me at my own game. Why should somebody take a polygraph, such as the Anthony family?
SMITH: Nancy, look at the -- what would the average person do? If somebody`s child disappeared or the wife disappeared, they don`t want the police suspecting them. The first thing they should do is, if the police ask, or even if they don`t, volunteer, get that out of the way so that they can focus their resources where it should go.
GRACE: I always point out -- let me go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." Joe, great to see you again. Joe, I always point out Marc Klaas, because when his daughter Polly went missing, the first thing he said to police was polygraph me, don`t waste time on me. I`ll give you anything you want, go search for Polly.
Why isn`t the Anthony family doing that? And then as much as everybody seems to hate Padilla, he`s ready to take a poly?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, I think you`ve got to hand it to Leonard Padilla because there`s offensive polygraphs and defensive polygraphs.
I would never advise a client to do it, only because I think a polygraph is only as good as the person interpreting the results. It doesn`t detect lies or truths. You know it detects bodily responses to questions that I ask.
GRACE: Which are proven to respond when you`re lying. Yes.
LAWLESS: But it`s also.
GRACE: It determines body temperature, sweat, heartbeat. Yes, it detects all of that.
LAWLESS: Cold, stress, anxiety. All of that. I think it`s an investigative tool when someone who is in a position like Marc Klaas was, who comes forward and says, yes, give me a polygraph, because that suggests they believe in their own innocence.
GRACE: But why aren`t the Anthonys taking one? Padilla is ready to take one.
LAWLESS: Well, because at this point I think the police in Florida are -- the police who are involved in the search for Caylee are as much looking for suspects in a murder as they are Caylee. And I think they`re trying to find anyone they can.
I wouldn`t advise them to take it right now, because I don`t know how those results would be interpreted. It`s way too -- I think it`s way too far out in the investigation to let someone in their position do it. I wouldn`t advise them to do it.
GRACE: I want to talk very quickly about the possibility that the tot mom may have to finally speak from behind bars. Certainly not to police. But remember Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman that tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee? It turns out she had never even any of the Anthony family?
Well, her lawyer is set to take a deposition under oath, behind bars, of the tot mom.
Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, Joe Lawless.
Susan Moss, will it work? All she`ll do is take the Fifth Amendment.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may not, because she doesn`t think -- she may not think she is guilty of anything. This -- with this deposition, she is going to need more than the neighbor`s shovel to dig herself out of this one.
GRACE: Jason, is there anything you can say to top that?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I don`t think it`s going to happen as quickly as us and the media would like it to happen, just for the -- you know, the sensationalism. There is a lot more legal maneuvering that`s going to go into this before that ever goes down.
GRACE: Well, Joe lawless, I don`t think it`s going to happen. Because when you know that the -- the person you`re deposing is going to take the Fifth, why would you go ahead and go behind bars?
I mean, she is looking at a murder trial. Why should she go under oath, and for a deposition?
LAWLESS: She shouldn`t, and she won`t. And I think the fact she filed a counterclaim suggests that whoever filed the counterclaim wasn`t thinking. Anyone in her situation should not be giving depositions.
GRACE: No way. No way is she going to give a deposition. I`m surprised the attorney even said it. But I guess he`s got to get it on record.
Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Casey Anthony defense team. You heard what Lee had to say about Oak Ridge Laboratories, the Body Farm. Do you agree or disagree?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I too am a very good friend of Bill Bass. Let me just say this. The conclusion of their report on air sampling says that it could be human decomposition. It does not say that it is.
That tells me it could be a lot of other things, which apparently is what Doctor Lee is saying.
GRACE: But it is decomposition. That is confirmed. They just don`t know whether it`s human or animal.
KOBILINSKY: That`s -- that is correct.
GRACE: You know, every time you give me an answer, you leave out a little fact, like that big study you told me about, how half of all of the cars searched turned up with chloroform in the trunk. And then I found out only one car turned up with chloroform in the trunk.
KOBILINSKY: Yes, one out of two and the fact that.
GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe you`re actually reiterating it.
KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that there`s a car with chloroform tells us that that is possible.
GRACE: And, and is what was the amount, the percentage of chloroform in that car?
KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it`s there tells us.
GRACE: Negligible, negligible, as opposed to highly saturated in Casey Anthony`s car.
KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it was there tells us it can form in a vehicle.
GRACE: I hope you don`t jump up at trial with that one, Kobe.
To Brian Reich, the deputy chief at the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, Padilla is about to take a polygraph. Have you ever seen law enforcement or a bounty hunter take a polygraph?
BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I haven`t seen a bounty hunter take a polygraph, but I`ve got to tell you, it`s certainly applicable that he should be taking a polygraph. I mean he`s using the media to get a lot of publicity. And if I was running this investigation, I would certainly want him to take one.
GRACE: Are you suggesting that he planted the evidence?
REICH: I`m not suggesting that, but I`m saying I would definitely want him to take a polygraph if I was running this investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: There is still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody gives Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfied in my mind that she is not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Drew, on Wednesday I`m releasing a story that you`re meeting a lawyer to divorce Stacy. Can you confirm this?
DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOTHER STACY PETERSON: No comment.
ARMSTRONG: No denial either?
PETERSON: No nothing.
ARMSTRONG: When I interviewed you for "Drew Peterson Exposed," you mentioned that you would seek a divorce on the one year anniversary, you mentioned it was important to move out of Bolling Brook?
PETERSON: I might have said that.
ARMSTRONG: I have a confirmation that you have an appointment with high profile lawyer.
PETERSON: So?
ARMSTRONG: Who specializes in pre and post-divorce proceedings.
PETERSON: Yes.
ARMSTRONG: You`re seeing him about a divorce?
PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.
ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You said - you`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.
PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always aid that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bykowski.
ARMSTRONG: So it`s about selling the house and moving away?
PETERSON: No comment.
ARMSTRONG: Meaning you don`t expect her to return?
PETERSON: Why would she return to all this?
ARMSTRONG: So you`ll sell the house?
PETERSON: No comment.
ARMSTRONG: What about the marital assets?
PETERSON: No comment.
ARMSTRONG: How far away would you move? You mentioned Kentucky and California in my previous interviews with you for "Drew Peterson Exposed."
PETERSON: Out of the neighborhood is important for the kids. Some of the people around here are nuts.
ARMSTRONG: So Kentucky sounds good?
PETERSON: Anywhere sounds good.
ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.
PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.
ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.
PETERSON: No comment.
ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?
PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.
ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?
PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. He is facing felony gun charges and a possible homicide charge, and he says the neighbors are the nuts? So he has got to move away from them? OK. That`s former cop turned suspect in his wife`s disappearance, Drew Peterson. You heard him speaking with Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," a pretty telling expose` of Drew Peterson.
And with me tonight is Derek Armstrong. He is seeking a divorce, it`s apparent. Why, so he can liquidate all of the assets and get out of dodge?
ARMSTRONG: Absolutely, Nancy, that seems to be the case.
GRACE: And I guess the police are just going to twiddle their thumbs and let it happen?
ARMSTRONG: Well, he seems to think they`re always twiddling their thumbs, I think.
GRACE: On what grounds could he actually divorce Stacy Peterson? I guess he`ll show her and divorce her without her being there.
ARMSTRONG: Yes, under Illinois law, according to my research, he can apply under desertion. He`s claiming she ran away, that she hasn`t been around for a year. I think you have to wait a year.
GRACE: What can you tell us about a mock jury that was created at the University of Illinois regarding the pending gun charge?
ARMSTRONG: I obtained some documents on the mock trial with -- they had 18 jurors who are paid, I think, $50 each. And I obtained the questionnaires afterwards, which indicated their verdicts and what they believed, how they believed the defense did on the presentation and also the prosecution.
GRACE: And what was their verdict?
ARMSTRONG: Five found him guilty, 13 not guilty. All of them said they were not swayed by his involvement or, pardon me, the investigation on his wives. And that they were solely based on -- basing their analysis -- their verdicts on the -- the case presented, which was vindictive prosecution as a defense.
GRACE: With me is Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed."
Kathy Chaney, with the "Chicago Defender," quickly, what more can you tell me?
KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Pretty much just as Derek said that you do have to wait for about a year for abandonment in order for you to try to file for divorce. He had said previously that, you know, he was looking to move away, but, you know, he can`t do that right now.
And Stacy`s name is on some of the property, including the house. So that would be impossible for him to do with her still around, with him still married. So right now, it does point that he is looking to get a divorce.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, both out of New York, Joe Lawless out of Philadelphia.
Susan, what do you think?
MOSS: Giving this guy a divorce is like giving Hannibal Lecter steak sauce. But there is good news, because in Illinois there is very broad discovery rules. So if he wants to go and claim desertion, that is going to open up depositions, all types of discovery instruments to find out what happened to Stacy.
GRACE: What about it, Joe Lawless?
LAWLESS: My question would be, who would take the discovery? If she`s abandoned, they`re going to file an affidavit that they tried to serve her, couldn`t find her, there is no one representing Stacy. I think he gets a divorce, unless the judge wants to stay it, pending the murder investigation.
GRACE: Well, Jason Oshins, what would happen with her share of all of the assets?
OSHINS: Well, depending upon if there is a will or not, an administrator can be appointed for her assets, and they can be distributed either to the children, or whoever is named in the will. If there is no will.
GRACE: She has to be declared dead.
OSHINS: Yes, it`s -- well.
GRACE: But if the children get her share of the assets, he`ll get his mitts on it.
OSHINS: Yes, they`re going to declare her dead one way or another, either by the murder investigation, or by a civil finding based on the abandonment.
GRACE: To Derek Armstrong, who wrote "Drew Peterson Exposed," do you truly believe that murder charges are coming down?
ARMSTRONG: I actually do believe in the case of Kathleen Savio that there is an indictment case coming down. I have no evidence of that, it`s just that the hearsay law in Illinois would apply more to that case.
GRACE: And the legislature has changed the hearsay law. And how will that, in a nutshell, help prosecutors that are prosecuting Drew Peterson?
ARMSTRONG: I believe because of a couple of pieces of hearsay, one was Kathleen Savio`s letter indicating that if something happened to her, that Drew did it. And the other would be Pastor Scorey`s hearsay testimony that Stacy told him that Drew had killed Kathleen.
GRACE: To Brian Reich, do you find it suspicious that he wants a divorce?
REICH: Yes, I certainly do. I mean, if your spouse ran off and left you, you would think you`d want to cherish that memory and not end it and not have it final. So if I was investigating this crime I would definitely find that suspicious and want to put a lot more efforts into it.
GRACE: That hearsay rule about to pass the Illinois House is expected to pass, and very quickly, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, what do you make of him being so audacious as to speak a divorce when he`s suspected of killing her?
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly in his mind either she`s gone or not coming back. And I think, again, it seems like he`s just not thinking about the children. They`ve had a major loss. And now even if he files for divorce, you know how traumatic that is to a family. So he`s got to think about the welfare of his kids.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.
PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.
ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.
PETERSON: No comment.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You know what, there ought to be a law. Can`t you see all that money being funneled away to Turks & Caicos somewhere, Susan Moss?
MOSS: It`s possible but a smart judge will reserve the issue of equitable distribution and the division of marital property.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uhm.
GRACE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I was wondering if they ever asked somebody like Tim Miller to search for Stacy.
GRACE: What do we know, Kathy Chaney? What type of searches have gone on?
CHANEY: You know what, nothing too much lately. It`s just pretty much like the water searches, air searches. But there hasn`t been a vigorous search lately at all.
GRACE: But there were very vigorous searches when she went missing, correct?
CHANEY: When she went missing, yes. They did.
GRACE: Yes.
CHANEY: In the water, in the air, but lately, nothing too much.
GRACE: To Dana in Washington, hi, Dana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: What`s your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the third wife was re-ruled as a homicide, can`t the family of this woman take him to court and sue him for death or wrong suit just like the Goldmans did for O.J. Simpson?
GRACE: Aren`t they doing that, Derek Armstrong?
ARMSTRONG: Yes, I believe they have retained a lawyer in New York.
GRACE: Yes. I think they have. And it remains to be seen what will become of it.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Joseph Ford, 23, Knox, Indiana, killed Iraq. Left studies at University Southern Indiana to deploy. Loved history, fencing, Greek and Roman mythology, studying the medieval period. Leaves behind grieving parents Sam and Darlene, widow Karen.
Joseph Ford, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
