Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Anthonys Claim Gainesville Caylee Sighting Evidence

Aired November 18, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony announce they`ve obtained hard evidence little Caylee is alive. They claim new tips are pouring in, including a recent sighting of Caylee at a McDonald`s in Coral Springs, Florida.

And tonight, bombshell. We learn tot mom Casey Anthony, just before her final arrest, criticizes police and volunteer search efforts saying, quote, "They haven`t even found the clothes Caylee was wearing," clearly indicating tot mom knows Caylee not alive. Why would they find the clothes separate from the little girl? Think about it!

And tonight, just released, the state reveals its witness list at trial as they seek to prove murder one against tot mom Casey Anthony. We have the list. Earlier reports defense attorney Jose Baez set to testify against his own client. But how? While searchers from all over the country hunt for the little girl and legal strategies swirl and solidify, tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars in a private cell, reading, lounging, ordering high-end snacks and watching herself on TV, not lifting a finger in the search for Caylee. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: It`s our feeling that -- it`s Kidfinders. It`s -- many, many people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter is alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Anthony family spokeswoman says they have evidence Caylee Anthony is alive. Reports indicate the Anthonys holding a press conference later this week to tell the public what they know.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I`ve got a tip right now in Coral Springs, Florida, that Caylee`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state`s witness list released. What direction could the prosecution be headed? And bounty hunter Leonard Padilla considering a $200,000 deal from a production company to film his search. Padilla says the money will be used to fund the search for Caylee.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: When we got here to bail her out, it was on the basis that she was going to tell us where the child was. She sits down, she`s talking to me, and she says, I went to Blanchard Park, and Zenaida and her sister, Samantha, were there and they took the baby away from me. There is no Zenaida in your life. And she said, Get out of my house. And I said, OK. And I turned around and I told her, I`m going to find Caylee with or without your help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, music superstar Michael Jackson beats the rap on child molestation and then leaves, jets away for a life of luxury in the royal palace, Bahrain. But a Bahraini prince takes Jackson to court, claiming he milked the royal family for millions, including the tab for Jackson`s lawyer, a $35,000 electric bill for Jackson`s multi-million mansion, Neverland, a $350,000 European vacation, over-the-top jewelry, even flying out Jackson`s celebrity hairstylist to Bahrain. Final bill, over $7 million.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pop superstar Michael Jackson is in legal trouble yet again. This time, an Arab sheikh says Jackson owes him about $7 million as part of a project deal that Jackson backed out of, reportedly saying the money was a gift.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s very charming. He professes no memory of anything, even multi-million-dollar transactions that his business advisers acknowledge occurred.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For Michael Jackson, Inc., there have been literally a thousand lawsuits. And these kinds of lawsuits are not unusual in his life.

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I`ve been betrayed so much by people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second son of the king of Bahrain says he had a contract with Jackson that included a production of a new music album from the pop icon, as well as a frank and personal autobiography. The sheikh claims he paid for Jackson`s lavish lifestyle, including a reported $300,000 for a motivational guru and over $2 million in legal fees from Jackson`s child molestation trial.

JACKSON: They take money overseas (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Jackson`s attorney says Jackson can`t appear in court to testify, saying Jackson is too sick to make the trip. Jackson`s attorney wants Jackson to able to testify via video link. A judge is expected to rule shortly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got home at 10 minutes to 10:00. That`s when my wife was standing outside, walking -- pacing back and forth in the driveway. The car`s still inside the garage. And my wife fell apart. She said, George, we lost her. We lost her. And I said, Lost who? Lost who? She said, Caylee. Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been months of anguish and heartbreak for those who love little Caylee Anthony, demanding answers. Tonight, we could be closer to finding Caylee. An Anthony family spokesperson claims the family has evidence that Caylee is alive. Reports the family will hold a news conference in the coming days and share their hope with the public.

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we still believe firmly that Caylee`s alive. That`s where our focus has been from day one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re more confident.

GEORGE ANTHONY: More confident (INAUDIBLE) more confident.

CINDY ANTHONY: Until something concrete comes in from the authorities and not speculation from anybody else, this is what our focus is on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Yuri?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, I understand that George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents, are having a press conference to announce they have hard evidence that little Caylee is alive. What do we know?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, that`s what we`re being told. They have a new spokesperson involved with non-profits who is planning some sort of a news conference later this week, and we are told they have some solid reports that Caylee is alive. Now, we have heard this before, even most recently, Coral Springs sighting, Gainesville sighting. Nothing to either one of those things, and of course, investigators believe that Caylee is not alive.

Also, the state`s witness list is out today. And you mentioned we got a jolt because we thought that the defense attorney was actually on that list. And it turned out it was a typing error. But we did see that Casey`s grandmother is on that list of prosecution witnesses, as well as her ex-boyfriends, ex-friends, a lot of investigators. What we didn`t see, however, was anyone from the FBI or the Oak Ridge Laboratories.

GRACE: Interesting. Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I want to go back to the possibility that little Caylee is alive. Drew Petrimoulx, what do we believe the Anthonys have?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: It`s hard to tell. What they did say is that they have a sighting that was in Gainesville that was reliable. They`re going to roll out some of this stuff from Kidfinders. Their private investigation firm will all be at this press conference.

If you remember, last week, she said that there was a reliable sighting that was in Coral Springs at a McDonald`s. We found out that it wasn`t true. We`ve also talked to sheriff`s spokesmen, and they say that, basically, they`re done with these wild goose chases, that they believe that Caylee is dead and they`re not going to be chasing these leads all around the country anymore.

GRACE: Oh, take a look at the other sightings, Drew Petrimoulx. Nashville, Tennessee was checked out, a sighting in Georgia, Deltona, Florida, two reported sightings, Coral Springs, of course, Orlando. That doesn`t include the sighting -- the alleged sighting, the false sighting of little Caylee on an AirTran flight from Orlando to Atlanta, on to Puerto Rico. The feds were brought in on that to check the manifest and the airport security video. That did not pan out.

So the fact that there have been some failed sightings does not mean, Marc Klaas -- joining us tonight, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, it`s great to see you again. Marc, the sheriffs and police cannot just give up on possible sightings. A, what if it`s true? Doubtful. And B, how could you go to trial and not look a jury in the face and say, We followed up on every lead?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that they have a responsibility to do that. But I think that, you know, this has happened time and time again, where they say, We have something credible, we have hard evidence. And then they -- they -- it turns out to be nothing.

I think the thing that really concerns me about this particular situation, though, is if they have credible evidence that this little girl is alive, you don`t hold that for a press conference later in the week. You disclose that information immediately so that law enforcement can move on it. It`s quite possible that law enforcement is looking at this as a ruse. They think they have something, so why are they waiting? If they`re waiting, obviously, what they have isn`t very credible, or they`d be on it right now.

GRACE: You know, Mike...

KLAAS: Nancy, I believe -- I believe that this organization, Kidfinders, should instinctively understand this if these people have any credibility at all in the child find world.

GRACE: You know, to Mike Brooks. Marc Klaas has an excellent point. Why are we waiting to hear the new tip, the new solid, hard evidence Caylee is alive, for a press conference? Why?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, Marc is right on target. They -- they don`t have really anything at all right now, Nancy. They keep operating...

GRACE: But how do you know that?

BROOKS: ... on false hope, and that`s all we hear again and again, is we have these sightings, but none of the sightings ever pan out.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has been helping in the search for little Caylee. What do you know? What are your sources telling you regarding alleged hard evidence Caylee`s alive?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s -- it`s like when I`ve traveled back and forth -- or nowadays, my team members are still chasing fugitives. We see little girls constantly that look like her. All these little 3- year-old girls look the same. Sometimes you`re even tempted to go up and open conversation with the adults. It`s not true. She`s -- she`s just not alive. I mean, it`s just not alive.

GRACE: OK. You know...

PADILLA: I`m not going to criticize Cindy and George for what they`re saying and doing...

GRACE: Good. Don`t. Don`t go down that road.

PADILLA: No, I`m not...

GRACE: They`ve got enough burden on them. I`ve got another question for you, Padilla.

PADILLA: Yes?

GRACE: What this comment that tot mom allegedly makes, stating, while she`s seeing coverage about the search for Caylee, They haven`t even found her clothes she was wearing, clearly implying that she`s not connected to the clothes anymore. How would she know that?

PADILLA: Yes. She made that statement in front of one of the people that was there with me when we bailed her out. And it definitely brought our attention to the fact that at that point in time, she was making a statement.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she think she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a very sensitive case, and it always is tough that if you end up going down that path of working -- working a homicide case without a body, it`s even tougher.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A lot of bombshells in the search for Caylee tonight. Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, back to the grandparents stating that they have hard evidence Caylee`s alive. Any idea what that evidence is?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: It`s very hard to say what that evidence is going to be. It`s the latest in a series of tips, as far as we know. As Drew Petrimoulx mentioned earlier, there`s a tip having to do with something -- a sighting in Gainesville. There was a previous one in Coral Springs which turned out to be false. As far as we know, we could expect anything at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, child advocate in New York, Ray Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"

First to you, Ray Giudice. What about when your client jumps up and says something like, They haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing that day.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, that is a terrible statement in a series of terrible statements that this young lady`s made.

GRACE: Yes, at least you acknowledge it.

GIUDICE: And let me say, way back, many shows ago, when we talked about her getting involved with Padilla just to get the bond -- and there`s no offense to Mr. Padilla, but it introduced all these other opportunities to make statements out of the presence of her attorney-client privilege.

GRACE: What about it, Mickey Sherman? Your client says -- your client says -- and this is not to police -- this isn`t to police, so don`t even try to talk to me about suppressing it at trial -- talking about the search effort, Police haven`t even found what she was wearing that day.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What did she say before that? What did she say after that? What were the questions that were being posed to her?

GRACE: Good question.

SHERMAN: You`ve got to take it in context.

GRACE: Excellent start.

SHERMAN: I got to say, there`s three victims here. There`s Caylee Anthony, and the other victims are the grandparents. They are every bit as victims as the grandchild. And they are being so victimized now by everybody, everybody that`s trying to make a buck...

GRACE: Oh, Mickey...

SHERMAN: I`m sorry.

GRACE: ... I appreciate you trying to play hide the ball, but we`re talking about Casey Anthony`s statement.

Let`s go straight to the source. Padilla, what was the context? What happened? Give it to me in a nutshell.

PADILLA: I`m not sure what the context was, but I know that she made that statement. I might have paraphrased a word or two, but it was a statement that was made. The FBI`s got the statement that was made.

GRACE: Tell me again.

PADILLA: They haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing.

GRACE: They haven`t found the clothes she was wearing. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, come on! This woman`s going to convict herself! I mean, they should -- luckily, they`ll put her on the witness list, although, of course, she`ll probably plead the 5th. But I`m concerned about what these new tips are because I`m concerned if these tips sound legit, that the jury just might acquit. And what law enforcement really needs to do is to follow up on these tips...

GRACE: Well, they`ve got to follow up.

MOSS: ... and prove they`re not true.

GRACE: But you know, her own comments may end up doing her in. Very quickly, before we go to the calls, Sue Moss, what does this statement convey? It conveys to me that she knows the child is separated from those clothing.

MOSS: And she also knows where she put those clothes -- that clothing, and knows that it should have been found. If they don`t even find where she put the clothing, they`ll never find the body.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Christine in California. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. My question is, I wanted to know if anyone had looked into the straw hat and the red glasses that...

GRACE: You know, I was wondering about that, that the witness states he saw her in the red straw hat and sunglasses, putting a bag into her car trunk. Excellent question, Christine.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. I know the police searched the home on multiple occasions. Do we know what their return was? That is, the form they fill out about what they took from the home.

BELICH: Yes, we do. And I read it a long time ago. There was a lot of clothing that they took from the home. They also took, obviously, some things of Caylee so they could do DNA testing, some combs and brushes, that sort of thing. They did take some of Caylee`s clothing, and they did take some of Casey`s clothing, as well, from the house.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. You know, we know that she, Leslie, rented videos about a child that had been kidnapped, about a body that was in a trunk, was in one of the movies, right around the time little Caylee went missing. We know that she borrowed shovels. We know that she hid the trunk from her father. Would she be wily enough to get rid of an outfit she used to dispose of remains, or do something surreptitious when she knew she had been spotted in that outfit?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: She very well might. She`s very crafty, even just by the pattern of lies that she`s told that have been proven to be lies so far. So I think if she really wanted to hide clothing or a body or an outfit or something she wore, she`d find a way to do it. And I think that`s why she`s not saying a word so far.

GRACE: We are waiting on a press conference by the grandparents, who have announced they`ve got hard evidence little Caylee is alive.

Out to the lines. Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have to say happy belated birthday to your little Lucy and John David. November 4 is also my birthday.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why does the car trunk still smell after all these months? Is it possible that there could still be some human decomposition in, like, a little nook or cranny?

GRACE: That`s an excellent question. And with me tonight, Dr. Joshua Perper. He is the chief medical examiner of Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, as always, it`s an honor to have you on the show with us tonight. You know, I`ve been taking a look, I`ve got it in my hands right now, that lab report from Oak Ridge laboratory, the "body farm." Out of 24 compounds in the trunk, Dr. Perper, 16 of those are associated with human decomposition -- not animal decomposition, human decomposition.

Dr. Perper, take a listen to what Dr. Henry Lee said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: I doubt any forensic anthropologists can just smell an odor and reach a conclusion.

GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.

LEE: Sure. Right. Well, GC (ph) mass spec, it`s identified as organic molecules. They`re not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules are consist of certain amount component only show some of those organic material presence. That`s -- I think, you know, somebody look at it, they reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition, that`s little bit too far.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s 16 out of 24, Dr. Perper, human decomposition. Why would the car still smell?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think that what`s obvious, that the body had to be left in that place for quite a long time, probably at least two weeks or even more. And she had all of the opportunities of hiding the body. That`s why it`s so difficult to find it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Angie in Virginia wants to know why the car this many months later would still smell of human decomposition. Dr. Perper, could you rephrase that for us?

PERPER: Yes. What I`m saying is that the body had to be left there and decomposed for some long period of time, perhaps two weeks and perhaps more, because if the body had been just there for one or two days, the smell would have evaporated a long time ago.

GRACE: Why would it still be there, though, these many months later?

PERPER: Because -- because probably there was some body fluid which penetrated into the lining of the back of the car, and that`s from where those molecule are still ventilating in the air.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, I was reading George Anthony`s statement to police and he said he saw a stain in the trunk about the size of a saucer. Would that qualify as possibly...

PERPER: Yes. Sure. Yes, it would.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE INVESTIGATOR: We spent the first day of the investigation with the mother prior to her arrest. We talked to her for a couple of hours.

The initial information that she gave us we followed up on, and, of course, a lot of what she told us when we first began talking to her turned out to be false information.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: And there are certain things that the family can`t say. There are certain things that we do know. There are certain things that Casey knows that she can`t tell. But you know, frankly, there`s not a whole lot of people that we trust.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe. You know I`ve got to believe her that she knows everything is OK.

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, CAYLEE`S ALLEGED NANNY: I want the truth to come out. I want them to know that I didn`t do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for Zani?

C. ANTHONY: I`m not sure. But I have two theories, and I`ll share that with you. I think Zani could either be Amy or Jesse at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. Straight back out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. I`ve got the witness list here in my hand. And the attorney, Jose Baez, is not on the updated witness list.

Are you telling me that was an accident?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, the first list that was released today that -- actually, I got it from the clerk`s office this morning, had his name on it, and, of course, we had a jolt when we saw that, and we were trying to figure out why.

GRACE: Right.

BELICH: . no one was talking to us, but there was a mistake. We found out later it was a mistake. He`s not on the list.

GRACE: That was an accident. That`s some whopper of an accident.

Unleash the lawyers. Mickey Sherman, I`ve only seen a lawyer thrown off a case in order to testify against his own client one time. That was Bruce Cutler when he was representing John Gotti, and I would point out when he did not represent John Gotti, Gotti got convicted finally.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I got out of case and I would testify for my client on why he fled the jurisdiction on the case.

GRACE: OK. Not about you, Mickey. OK?

SHERMAN: No, but I`m saying. It`s not that unusual. Lawyers.

GRACE: Let me steer you back to this case.

SHERMAN: OK.

GRACE: So how can they make him testify against his client?

SHERMAN: They can`t.

GRACE: OK.

SHERMAN: There`s just no way.

GRACE: Giudice?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a mistake. It would not happen. It shouldn`t have happened, it`s an error.

GRACE: Sue?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Some first year is re-examining career options because they made a doozy of a mistake.

GRACE: Man, they did.

Out to the lines, Sandy in Kentucky. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, you know, the Anthonys say -- Cindy and George Anthony are saying that they have credible evidence that.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I would believe that if there were something like that out there, wouldn`t that be law enforcement holding a press conference, like in every other missing persons case or a break in a big case?

GRACE: Excellent question. Marc Klaas, what about it?

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, typically, law enforcement would. But they seem to be at odds with law enforcement in this situation. And it looks like they`ve decided to launch their own investigation, using various organizations, perhaps they`ve got some private eyes on the case, I really don`t know about that.

But that would be the only logical reason that they would be holding their own press conference regarding this credible evidence. That having been said, I think that law enforcement is doing absolutely everything they can to find the child, and if they do have something that definitely should be turned over to law enforcement, so that they can follow up.

GRACE: Mark Klaas, what do you think of the search so far?

KLAAS: Well, I am very critical of what`s going on. I can tell you right now that my.

GRACE: Why?

KLAAS: My organization will no longer be involved in this search, because here`s what you`ve got. You`ve got apparently three high-level search efforts going on. You`ve got Tim Miller`s search effort, you`ve got Leonard Padilla`s, and then you`ve got this kid.

GRACE: Kids Finders.

KLAAS: . this Kid Finders organization -- this Kid Finders, as well. None of them are working together, none of them are professional searchers, none of them seem to know what they`re doing.

We have on the one case Tim Miller has raised $50,000 to look for her. But he still doesn`t seem to be able to feed his searchers. Leonard Padilla is considering a $200,000 offer to have people go and follow him as they search, and quite frankly, you can`t take cameras on a search with you. You`re not supposed to give up the areas that you`re searching in.

I can tell you, Nancy, that the Klaaskids Foundation works on a $250,000 budget year in and year-out. And we`re constantly searching for people. We`re constantly finding people. We`re working with other organizations. We`re running two Web sites.

We`re putting out a quarterly newsletter. We`re running a grass roots effort. We`re rescuing victims of human trafficking. All over the course of a year, paying people to do something for the kind of money that these characters haven`t been able to find squat with.

GRACE: Well, I can say this, Marc.

KLAAS: And I just find -- I find it offensive. Pardon me?

GRACE: I can say this much, Marc Klaas.

Everyone, as you know, Marc Klaas is the president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. He is a crime victim. His daughter, Polly, was kidnapped and murdered. The day it happened, Klaas says polygraph me, take my DNA, so you can go on and find who took my daughter.

I hold him up as an example to everyone. Yes, your organization is beyond reproach, to my knowledge. To Tim Miller`s defense, he has found several people alive, according to his report. Jared Williams, Mary Grace Gabriel, Angelo Britton, Christopher Snow, Charlie Townsell. He`s found multiple bodies that police couldn`t find.

And in the defense of Leonard Padilla, listen, if they didn`t let the sinner in the church, the church would be empty, people. So long story short, at least he`s out there searching. You`ve got to give him that. You must give him that.

These are a few of the people and bodies that Tim Miller has found. But you know, Marc Klaas, point well taken. Every point well taken.

Out to Angela in Oklahoma, hi, Angela.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering when the mother took out the pair of pants early on and washed them, I was wondering why she didn`t take the opportunity to clean the car out. And thank you, friend.

GRACE: Thank you. Mike Brooks, what about it?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, apparently, I mean, Nancy, you know, that car -- I think it was -- there is no way you could get the stench out of that car. And you know she took the pants, you go back, you get the search warrant, they went back.

I think when they -- when George and Cindy were first cooperating, that`s when they found out that there were -- these pants and some of these other materials and that`s when they got the search warrant and went back to the house and then went back to the house again.

GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, speaking of grandmother Cindy washing those pants that she stated smelled horribly, if there had been -- let me rephrase.

Doctor, how could those pants have yielded any forensic evidence of murder other than blood?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, there could have been some decomposing fluid or a small piece of soft tissue. But they were very carefully washed. All of the evidence would be basically eliminated.

GRACE: I was wondering, what could have made the pants smell so badly, Doctor. I mean -- if there were human fluid on there.

PERPER: Well, maybe -- maybe there was some kind of corrosive substance which was used, you know? There was no.

GRACE: From a body, what type -- what type of substance would be on the slacks that would have yielded forensic evidence? What substance could it be, other than blood?

PERPER: Other than blood would be just small pieces of tissue. Just.

GRACE: How about body fluid? Decomposition fluid?

PERPER: Well, it could be decomposition fluid, and this would account for an increased smell of the -- the pants. But they would have been washed very carefully, nothing would be left. That`s obvious.

GRACE: Excellent.

To Donna in Hawaii, hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The only question I have is I know that the brother had said something about squirrels climbing up in there and dying. That was one of mama`s lies. Have they completely ruled that out? There is no evidence of any kind of dead animal.

GRACE: Absolutely no evidence of a dead animal was found. That is my understanding, Drew Petrimoulx. And, again, Donna in Hawaii, I have the FBI report right here, and it says, 16 out of the 24 compounds from human decomposition.

Drew Petrimoulx, wasn`t it Casey Anthony that came up with that story?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Basically, that`s one she had told her friends in a text message, that she must have ran over something, even telling her dad that.

And there`s just been some stories that maybe the smell was from hitting something, even throughout the investigation when she was arrested.

GRACE: Hey, Drew? Drew?

PETRIMOULX: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: When is the news conference? When are we going to hear this hard evidence that Caylee is alive?

PETRIMOULX: They have only said later this week. They haven`t given a specific day yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Another day in our life. We go through this every day. I mean, that Blanchard Park is a little different, you know, than what we`ve had, except I did get from Tim Miller, they found some bones the other day that were rib bones from a cow or something that someone put out at the site.

So, you know, it`s -- it is what it is. Right now, we`re dealing with this. And, you know, we still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. That`s where our focus has been from day one, and we`re not faltering from that. And until something concrete comes in from the authorities and not speculation from anybody else, this is what our focus is on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Worldwide superstar and former child molestation defendant, Michael Jackson, is facing another legal battle this week. This time over money. A son of a king of Bahrain says Jackson owes him $7 million from money that was advanced to him as part of a music project that never saw the light of day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jackson says he thought the money was a gift and that no project was ever finalized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It shows Michael Jackson`s character. This is how he sucked people in. He professes love of them and then he dumps them. He has done this over and over and over again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Arab sheikh is taking Jackson to court to try and get the money back that was used to pay for Jackson`s unusual lifestyle, which reportedly included over a quarter of a million dollars given to Jackson just for a European vacation.

Jackson`s attorney says that Jackson is ill and may be unable to come to court to testify in his own defense, asking the court to allow the pop icon to testify via a video link.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Jackson`s response, I don`t feel well.

Out to Tom O`Neil, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly." Tom, $35,000 electric bill? Flying Jackson`s celebrity hairstylist to Bahrain? OK, the Sheikh Abdulla Bin Hamad Al Khalifa is pretty POed.

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY, COVERING STORY: Well, he has good -- you know reason to be. Remember, right after the whole molestation case was over, Michael picked up his whole family, they went to this little island off the coast of Saudi Arabia.

And this prince promised he was going to completely rejuvenate Michael`s career. He was writing songs that Michael was going to sing, he was paying all the bills, and in exchange for that, Michael was supposed to do three things. He`s supposed to come up with this music album, he`s supposed to come up with a memoir, a written memoir, and a musical. I assumed that musical is a stage musical.

GRACE: A memoir, that would be state`s exhibit number 1.

(LAUGHTER)

O`NEIL: If it was a truly candid one, you bet.

GRACE: OK. So how much did he soak him for, allegedly?

O`NEIL: $7 million is what the prince is claiming. And among those - - things you just ticked off for outrageous expenditures, here`s the worst one, Nancy, $350,000 paid to a motivational speaker to fly to Bahrain to make Michael do this album that he wasn`t doing. And of course, nothing happened.

GRACE: What about the European vacation?

O`NEIL: That was $350,000 and part of the expenditure of that was for the hairdresser to go along with them. But I thought it was.

GRACE: And how much was the motivational speaker?

O`NEIL: $37,000 a pop coming to a total of $350,000.

GRACE: To Jerry Lawton, joining us from London, he is with the "Daily Star," Jerry, it`s great to talk to you. So what`s the likelihood Jackson is going to show up in a court in London?

JERRY LAWTON, REPORTER, THE DAILY STAR, COVERING STORY: Well, hi, Nancy. The likelihood appears to be -- no, he`s just not going to show. His daughter seems to be digging his heels in. He has a bit of a record of not liking to show up at court. And illnesses sometimes occur at fairly key moments in Mr. Jackson`s career.

At the moment, his lawyer is saying that Michael is -- is unfit to make the journey. He is not too keen on traveling to England at all, in fact. And while he has had a bit of a rough ride since the molestation case in 2005.

GRACE: Well, it sounds to me like he`s had a pretty cushy ride, you know, flying his private hairstylist all the way to Bahrain. Well, would the sheikh consider flying to the U.S. and filing the lawsuit here?

LAWTON: I would think with -- with Michael Jackson`s quite considerably good track record of winning lawsuits in America, it would be extremely unlikely. The sheikh himself is actually British born, although he was educated in Bahrain. He went to Oxford University.

He also went to the University of Washington in America. So he actually is quite well traveled. But I think he feels in America, to fight this in America, he would certainly be playing in Michael Jackson`s own backyard.

GRACE: No, please.

LAWTON: And (INAUDIBLE) of victory would be.

GRACE: Please pass along to the sheikh not to rule out the jury system just yet.

Joining us right now, a very special guest out of L.A., Brian Oxman. He is the Michael Jackson family attorney, the co-host of "Insights" on L.A. Angels Radio Network.

Brian Oxman, we meet again. What`s your client been up to?

BRIAN OXMAN, MICHAEL JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY, CO-HOST OF "INSIGHTS" L.A. ANGELS RADIO NETWORK: Oh, Nancy. It is so good to talk to you again.

GRACE: I`m sure.

OXMAN: And yes, he is up to all the craziness that has surrounded his life.

GRACE: Why doesn`t he just go back to work like the rest of us?

OXMAN: Well, he is not feeling very good, Nancy.

GRACE: Boo-hoo.

OXMAN: He has had terrible experiences of a broken back, and broken leg, and right now.

GRACE: Broken back? Didn`t he just have a problem with a couple of vertebra?

OXMAN: He broke his vertebra, correct. And right.

GRACE: How many?

OXMAN: I think there were two of them that were broken in a fall about 60 feet off of a stage. Right now what he is suffering from.

GRACE: But he did manage to fly to Bahrain.

OXMAN: Yes, he sure did.

GRACE: OK. I`m sure that was a long flight.

OXMAN: Last time I talked to Latoya Jackson.

GRACE: And he seems to tough it out.

OXMAN: She says that he is not feeling well, that he is really very much under the weather. She doesn`t know the details of what is going on with him. But she said he is not feeling good.

GRACE: Then how does she know he doesn`t feel well?

OXMAN: Well, that`s the discussion that goes on in the family. And she said that she had talked.

GRACE: Oxman, Oxman.

OXMAN: . to the members of the family who said that he is just not doing well at all.

GRACE: $350,000 for a motivational speaker?

OXMAN: Well, Nancy, I have never, ever thought that some of these expenditures were worth -- an ethicist at all. I remember addressing a jury 10 years ago. These are song and dance people. They weren`t educated at Harvard Business School.

So I have to agree with you, that`s a little bit outlandish. But nevertheless, it is Michael`s money, and he gets to do with it as he sees fit.

GRACE: Actually, it was the sheikh`s money -- excuse me, Sheikh Abdulla Bin Hamad Al Khalifa according to his lawsuit.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman.

Mickey, what`s your best defense?

SHERMAN: Usually.

GRACE: With a straight face.

SHERMAN: The motivational speaker is Robert Blake. No one`s mentioned that. You know, it`s -- who are you going to move for here, Michael Jackson or some sheikh? It`s like having to pick your favorite Mendez brother. You know? It`s a civil case. He`s not (INAUDIBLE) vacation here. Nothing bad is going to happen to anybody.

Worst case, Michael Jackson rips off a sheikh. This is not a bad, this is not a bad news story.

GRACE: Hey, Ray, $35,000 electric bill.

GIUDICE: Look, Nancy, you can prove this contract, the sheikh can, by the conformancy of each party and the act of him hiring the motivational speaker to encourage him to fulfill his contract, I think that`s a good piece of evidence.

I would rather be on the sheikh`s side of this case -- in this case. I don`t think he can get this to the United States. They agreed by contract for the venue to be in London.

GRACE: Do you believe that`s correct, Susan Moss? It was -- I just don`t see from there being a written contract where venue is specified in writing.

MOSS: Well, it happens. And it certainly.

GRACE: Yes, I know it happens. But with Michael Jackson?

MOSS: Yes -- who knew he was that, he was that intelligent? But this was some shake-down and I`ll tell you something, Michael Jackson will be lucky if he doesn`t lose his other glove.

GRACE: What about it, Brian Oxman -- Brian Oxman, veteran trial attorney who represents the Jackson family in L.A.. Was there a written contract that states the venue must be in England?

OXMAN: That was stipulated to by the parties after the dispute arose. And I might add, Nancy, that what this was is Michael did a refinance almost a year and a half ago where all of these debts and expenditures, they were all supposed to be taken care of.

This one couldn`t be agreed upon. In other words, it`s not Michael trying to run away or trying to get away with anything. The amounts couldn`t be agreed upon and therefore we`ve got the lawsuit.

GRACE: You know he`s living mighty high on the hog for somebody that`s not working.

OXMAN: Nancy, he does a pretty good job of getting along and Michael always lands on his feet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever have a cash flow problem in 2003 where you wanted to spend money or something or you needed to spend money on something and didn`t have it?

MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: I -- I`d be guessing. I don`t know. I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Have you ever had a cash flow problem in your adult life?

JACKSON: I`ve heard of -- of cash flow problems but I`m not sure if it was accurate or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, you know, most people balance their checkbooks. He`s not sure if it`s accurate? Well, there`s nothing like a $7 million lawsuit to make you check that check balance.

Out to the lines, Luandra in Indiana. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I watch your show.

GRACE: I don`t think I got your name correctly. How do you pronounce that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Luanda.

GRACE: Luanda. OK, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s the king of pop. Why isn`t he using his own money? Shouldn`t he be mega rich?

GRACE: Shouldn`t he be, Brian Oxman? What happened to the reports that he was about to start a Vegas show? Oh, but that would require him punching a clock and showing up every night. Ouch.

OXMAN: Well, you have a very good point. Everyone in this family wants Michael to perform. No, question about it. As to his finances, Nancy, there`s always been reports Michael`s got problems and that never has been accurate.

Michael always seems to be able to find the money necessary to make his businesses function, and in this case, I have got to emphasize this is just a dispute over how much is owed.

GRACE: Yes, I heard you.

OXMAN: And they couldn`t come to an agreement.

GRACE: Rita in Texas, quickly, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. If he`s saying it was a gift shouldn`t he have reported it to the IRS?

GRACE: Oh, ouch, don`t make the IRS mad, uh-uh, don`t mess with the tax man.

Very quickly, Mickey Sherman, what about it?

SHERMAN: I would have to believe with his handlers and his accountants and his lawyers, including Brian, he did everything appropriately.

GRACE: Well, we`ll find out about that.

Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Jessica Ellis, 24, Bend, Oregon, killed Iraq on a second tour. An army medic. Highly decorated. Remembered for her smiles, her red, curly hair, loved her family`s dogs, cats and horses, running, swimming, fishing, canoe trips.

Leaves behind parents Steve and Linda, brother Cameron, sister Mandy.

Jessica Ellis, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END